sword sage , single weapon fighter?

[CyberThread]

What sort of build, do you think would benfit a swordsage, if you focused on only using a single weapon, instead of TWF?

[Lateral]

...Pretty much any build that doesn't focus on two weapons is fine. :smallconfused:

[Nightgaun7]

...Pretty much any build that doesn't focus on two weapons is fine. :smallconfused:

Not that you would know it, since virtually every swordsage thread assumes dual wielding or unarmed. Maybe the odd setting sun grappler.

[Lateral]

Not that you would know it, since virtually every swordsage thread assumes dual wielding or unarmed. Maybe the odd setting sun grappler.
Well, the thing is that unless you're specifically doing one of those, it doesn't really matter what weapon you're using. One of the advantages of ToB maneuvers is that they almost all work pretty much the same regardless of what weapon you use.

[Nightgaun7]

Well, the thing is that unless you're specifically doing one of those, it doesn't really matter what weapon you're using. One of the advantages of ToB maneuvers is that they almost all work pretty much the same regardless of what weapon you use.

Presumably he wants advice on things like "These maneuvers require two weapons, these maneuvers only work while grappling" and feat advice.

I've actually just been working on a THW swordsage, might dig my notes out tomorrow. I sort of put it on hold in frustration - a common occurrence when making 3.5 characters...

[gooddragon1]

Personally, I'd go with a medium sized heavy pick because d6 are easy to come by and easy to roll.

[Nightgaun7]

Personally, I'd go with a medium sized heavy pick because d6 are easy to come by and easy to roll.

If, for some bizarre reason, this is really a concern, just take a Greatsword.

[theIrkin]

you're going for THW instead, or even a rapier (or similar) weapon that is Dex focused. Tripper, disarm, massive damage. All work unless you have a specific weapon in mind. Heck, with judicious feats you can even make sword and board fun. This all assumes some level of optimization too. Without that assumption, you can always just pick whatever weapon sounds cool and just run with it. Nothing is wrong in DnD if you're just doing it because it's kewl.

[DMVerdandi]

I think a really awesome weapon is the elven blade series.
Elven courtblades just make greatswords redundant IMO. They are a slight tad weaker, but in the scheme of things, weapon finessing it allows you to focus more on dex, which gets you more AC. Two birds, one stone.

[Greenish]

Presumably he wants advice on things like "These maneuvers require two weapons, these maneuvers only work while grappling" and feat advice.There are, what, two maneuvers that require TWF? That shouldn't be too hard to avoid. There are no maneuvers for grappling, and the one stance for it isn't that great.

For feats, the usual suspects (Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, etc.) work fine, though the focus will be on the maneuvers, not feats.


you're going for THW instead, or even a rapier (or similar) weapon that is Dex focused. Tripper, disarm, massive damage.Trip and Disarm key to Str, though.


Heck, with judicious feats you can even make sword and board fun.You'd probably want warblade or crusader for that, though, since they're actually proficient with shields and don't lose class features using them. Swordsage S&B might work, but it'd probably end up being pretty similar to TWF.

[Snowbluff]

Trip and Disarm key to Str, though.


Setting Sun Maneuvers can use dex.

[RFLS]

What sort of build, do you think would benfit a swordsage, if you focused on only using a single weapon, instead of TWF?

I highly recommend a reach weapon with trip. Guisarme is pretty easy to pick up, spiked chain is the obvious answer. Unarmed swordsages are also fun, and get a lot of mileage out of Setting Sun.

[Fouredged Sword]

If I remember right a courtblade counts as a rapier, and a rapier is a shadowhand weapon.

I would recommend a Str -> Dex -> Wis -> Con min build focused on shadow hand and diamond mind.

Ok, you get both dex and strength to damage. 1.5*str + 1*dex adds up. Focus on strikes that make the target easier to hit by resolving as a touch attacks or allowing two attack rolls. This will let you power attack very consistently.

Your AC should be high enough to get in close without too much fear. I would probably go with iles of blades for a starter stance as flanking is nice at lower levels, then switch to something better later as monsters get bigger and flanking less common.

A two level monk dip should be considered for evasion, power attack without a str req (if you want to go that route), and an unarmed strike to wield with TWFing.

[Greenish]

If I remember right a courtblade counts as a rapier, and a rapier is a shadowhand weapon.Courtblade counts as greatsword.

[GreenETC]

I'd recommend just doing a Spiked Chain, since you can Finesse it and it is a Shadow Hand weapon, allowing you to put Dex to damage with Shadow Blade.

Just pick a weapon that is a discipline weapon from Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Desert Wind, Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, or Tiger Claw, so you can make use of the free Weapon Focus.

[Darrin]

If I remember right a courtblade counts as a rapier, and a rapier is a shadowhand weapon.


Elven Thinblade = rapier. By strict RAW, it only counts as a rapier for the purposes of Weapon Focus/Specialization and Improved Critical. Even if your DM handwaves this, rapier is associated with Diamond Mind, not Shadow Hand.

Elven Lightblade is probably closer to Shadow Hand, as it can be considered a shortsword for the purposes of Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc.

Elven Courtblade is nice, but probably not worth the feat unless you can get one made out of gold/platinum/kaorti. I actually think I prefer a kaorti Jovar (Planar Handbook), as it has better damage output than the courtblade (2d6 base damage instead of 1d10).

As far as THF/TWF... sheesh, people, armor spikes are only 50 GP! (Although if you can afford it, grab Netcutter Spikes in Races of the Wild for 150 GP, +6 bonus to get out of nets/entagle).

[Nightgaun7]

Elven Courtblade is nice, but probably not worth the feat unless you can get one made out of gold/platinum/kaorti. I actually think I prefer a kaorti Jovar (Planar Handbook), as it has better damage output than the courtblade (2d6 base damage instead of 1d10).


Can get DEX to damage with it though, which a lot of swordsages are keen on. Great choice for an Elf swordsage who gets it free, maybe not so much otherwise.

[Urpriest]

It's fine, but you'll want to focus on strikes.

If you're ok with being Exalted, consider a Wis-SAD build. Intuitive Attack and Insightful Strike combine to give Wis to attack and damage, alongside Wis to AC. You'll want to specialize in one school, mind. Other Wis-bonus things can add to this strategy.

Str or Dex setups also work fine of course.

[IronFist]

One of my players once played a SAD Swordsage/Paladin. His weapon of choice was a heavy mace, which got specially deadly once Power Attack multipliers came online (hello, Rhino Rush!). He only used Strikes for special effects - Fire Snake in particular was frequently used as a minion killer and Soaring Raptor Strike was his choice whenever he couldn't charge.
With support from the Artificer, he could get quite ridiculous very fast, but then again, anyone with support from an Artificer would.

[Harlot]

I've just finished building a level 12 Strongheart Halfling Swordsage. She used to be TWF but as we changed DM we were allowed to rebuild from scratch, and in the process I decided to loose TWF and try something else.

She's strictly swordsage, no multiclassing, and as for manuevres (17) I've split them between Desert Wind (firebased from range) and Shadow Hand. I am considering throwing in some Diamond mind as well.

Actually, as recommended elsewhere in this thread, I had quite a few Setting Sun maneuvres initially but realised they wont work, as they involve a lot of tripping, and as she is small = -4 penalty and not particularly strong.

But if you're making a medium or even large character, I'd recommend grabbing a spiked chain (that's a Shadow Hand preferred weapon) specialize in Setting Sun and Shadow Hand, and run AMOK.

Anyway, the 6 feats I've chosen are:


Improved initiative.(+4 til int.)

Shadow Blade: While in a shadow hand stance attacking with a SH weapon (i.e. dagger, shortsword, sai, siangham, unarmed strike, spiked chain) use dex. modifier as bonus on melee damage given.(+6)

Adaptive Style: Change readied maneuvers at any given time by taking a full round action.

Weapon finesse: With a light weapon (shortsword, unarmed) made for your size category, you may use your dex. modifier instead of your str. modifier on attack rolls. (+6)

Sudden recovery: Once per day as a swift action, you can instantly recover an expended maneuver. It is now ready again.

Blade Meditation: When you take this feat, choose a discipline (DW). You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls with all the preferred weapons of your chosen discipline (scimitar, light mace, light pick, falchion and spear) when using a strike combat maneuver, as well as a +2 bonus on checks involving the discipline's key skill (hide)
The save DCs of any maneuvers that you perform from the chosen discipline are increased by I, if they have a save DC.

I've combined those with these this weapons of choice (Hornblade is a special ability that makes it possible for her to use medium weapons though she's small) :

(While in Desert Wind stance) Falchion +1 medium 2d4 (crit 18-20) (hornblade + lesser crystal of life drinking
Attack bonus: 14/9= (BAB + (+1 for DW weapon )+1 (for +1 weapon )+2 (str.)+1(size))
Damage 2d4 + 9 (+1 dam for weapon , +4 /wis modifier (insightful strike) +1/blade meditation +3/gauntlets of war)
NO,NO, NO. Appearently this was a bad idea. Read later posts!

(While in Shadow Hand) Short sword +1, medium 1d6 (crit 19-20x2) hornblade + lesser crystal of life drinking)
Attack bonus: = 17/12 (BAB/+1 (for +1 weapon )+6 (dex modifier- weapon finesse)+1(size)
Damage 1d6 + 14 (+1 dam for weapon , +4 /wis modifier (insightful strike) +6/Shadow blade +3/gauntlets of war)

This makes sense mostly because I also have this:
Ring of arming. Price (Item Level): 5,000 gp - When you activate a ring of arming, any armor or weapons you currently wear disappear and are stored magically within the ring, and any armor or weapons currently stored within the ring appear in the appropriate places on your body (items that must be held appear at your feet if you don't have free hands).

(this, I must say, may be interpreted. I have asked my DM and we agree that ANY means that I can decide to switch some equipment, but not necessarily all of it. Otherwise I'd have to have double armor just to change weapons. If ANY actually means ALL, the item is less ideal.)

I am not really sure if this build is smart/very optimized, but I think I'll be fun to try some 'not TWF action' and see how it compares to prior sessions.
/Harlot

[Greenish]

I don't see why you would ever use the falchion, but each for their own.

[Harlot]

Well, I thought I wanted a Desert Wind weapon for when I'm in a DW stance using DW manuvres, because, as I remember it some maneuvres do extra damage if your weapon is a prefered weapon for that discipline.

Of those DW weapons available the falchion hits the hardest - combined with the Blade meditation feat. (Oh yeah, and it looks cool too. Very important feature!)

I may very well have missed something here though, so if I have, do enlighten me - I have three weeks to make it better :-)

[Tvtyrant]

Knife whip for tons of reach? At level 1 it would be extremely impressive, hitting enemies 15 ft. away with strikes.

[Greenish]

Well, I thought I wanted a Desert Wind weapon for when I'm in a DW stance using DW manuvres, because, as I remember it some maneuvres do extra damage if your weapon is a prefered weapon for that discipline.Which maneuvers would those be?


Of those DW weapons available the falchion hits the hardest - combined with the Blade meditation feat.Hitting "hard" (actually for less damage than the short sword) is all well and good if you hit. With a light weapon, say, a light mace or pick, you could use your Dex to attack.

Of course, you'd be better off just using the short sword and saving a whole bunch of money.

[Harlot]

I have no idea - it may very well just be something I made up...

Yup, just flipped through the maneuvres I've chosen and it's not even mentioned: I assume I just took the wording from the Shadow Blade Feat and applied that to DW too.

Thanks!

On that note, as I already have the shortsword, I'll just get rid of the awesomely cool looking falchion and run around with a shortsword. Sigh.
And make Blade meditation apply to SH weapons instead.

Which leads to a question: Would the +1 bonus to damage rolls from Blade Meditation then stack with the +6 dex based bonus damage from Shadow Blade?

Money's not that much of an issue, so I'll keep the ring of arming. Handy to get into your armor fast - and even handier to be able to carry it around in a ring.