Historical Fantasy - Real-world mythologies & religion? Stuck.

[EccentricOwl]

Hey there. I'm working on publishing a small-time setting project under the Creative Commons license. Nothing fancy, got some art done, some writing done. Just a little something that I want to be able to point to and say, "that's right. I got a book published. Self-published, yes, but published all the same." Not trying to charge for it, just get it hosted and out there.

It's intent is to be a 'historical fantasy' setting. With its main roots being in the Early Modern period (from around the 1400s to the early 1800s) , it takes some fantasy elements and tropes and puts them in a setting that feels historical. Real-world people and events can appear, if seen through a fantastic lens.

My real issue is that of religion and mythology.

http://i.imgur.com/aP419pAl.jpg

It's important to me to have setting mutability; the writers of "Eclipse Phase" or the FATE system guys have instilled within me a hearty desire to make any setting GM-friendly. That means giving the GM ideas and options for some of the 'big questions,' rather than simply giving a definite answer.

Hence, my difficulty. I know that I want to have the religious aspects of the setting be rooted in real history. I just don't know how. I was thinking it might be nice to offer multiple versions of mythology that the GM or players can choose from, to give them more hand in the setting. I figured that the awesome guys on GiantITP might be able to help. :)

A few of the ideas that came to me are below. Feel free to throw out your own ideas for either the setting in general or the mythology... I'm not too terribly satisfied with any of my mythology ideas.

1. Players choose from pretty much -all- the available deities in mythology. Quetzalcoatl is just as real as Zeus or Ebisu.
+Variety
-Overwhelming choice

2. Players choose from deity 'aspects' such as "God of War" or "God of Fishing & The Sea." (Optionally, players can look at a list of real-world deities; once they deterimine that they want to play as the God of Order, they can say, 'Oh, cool, Eunomia sounds neat.)
+Simpler
-Genericizes many myths into a button-choice

3. Mythological beings elect certain representatives to posts "Universal God of War for this century is... Bast, from Egypt!"
+Small list (maybe 10-15 deities, similar in number to Pathfinder, D&D, Westeros etc.)
-Not sure how the voting would occur
-Seems a bit bureacratic and strangely god-friendly for a historical setting

3. Have versions of real-world faiths - Islam, Christianity, Buddhism
+Adds to historical verisimilitude
-Complex issues abound, I don't know if I'm equipped to write about it

4. Have religions that are clearly inspired by real-world faiths but don't necessarily bear resemblance to them (IE the church of Menoth in Iron Kingdoms)
+Easier
-Seems 'done'

5. Completely fictional deities (or unrecognizably obscure ones), such as the entire Proto-Indo-European Pantheon - Deus the All-Father, Plenty the Earth-Mother, Taranis the Striker
+Don't think it's been done before
-What am I even thinking here...

[Tzi]

4. Have religions that are clearly inspired by real-world faiths but don't necessarily bear resemblance to them (IE the church of Menoth in Iron Kingdoms)
+Easier
-Seems 'done'

I went that route in one world I did. I had a region very much inspired by the late bronze age / early Iron Age Middle East. With a lot of mythology inspired by Babylon and even some biblical myths.

It honestly is fun if you can make it so and tell the story as such.

No matter what you do it will have "be done." So I say do whats the most fun and easiest.

[Sabeki]

Just make stuff up as you go.
Also, that picture.:smalleek:

[Morgarion]

EO,

I think that whether or not something's been 'done before', if you do it well, then it doesn't really matter.

I don't know anything else about your setting and what's going on and how it differs from our world, so it's hard for me to say precisely which route I think you ought to take. I put a post up on this very forum seeking feedback on my attempt to do something like your option 4. Even though I was playing with extant ideas and images, I think the end result is very much my own. It was a lot of fun, too, and I'm sure you already know that writing well is a lot easier when you're having fun. I would endorse option 4.

And lastly, I think that the PIE pantheon would be pretty recognizable. Not as such, but I think aspects of it will remind people of Norse, Greek, Slavic, Indian, etc. mythologies... because they all remind people of each other, which is how they reconstructed the pantheon in the first place.

[Stoney]

Yeah, the consensus seems to be #4, and I would suggest that one too.

One fictional religion that has a lot of potential in a setting from Game of Thrones is the Many-Faced God, the religion of the Faceless Men of Braavos. The main tenet of this faith is that the gods are all just aspects of a single God.

Consider also the real-world religion of Hinduism. The god Shiva, for example, has many names and appears in many different forms, each with their own unique iconography (as well as several aniconic, i.e. intentionally avoiding producing images of that aspect, forms).

This gives you the ability to reveal another sect of a religion that had a schism. Maybe some people believe in separate gods, but when they get out of Town A, they encounter a sect that believes in a wider and more nuanced view of the gods. Maybe you make two gods, and then later they're later revealed to merely be aspects of a single god. Then later, slowly, the revelation emerges of an all powerful omni-being, and not everybody expects it.

Anyways, it's a matter of choice and good roleplaying that bring about the revelation of various religions, or various aspects/sects of a single religion. It's integral with everything else, like geography, politics, and the factions. Maybe the religion is why they're fighting, and maybe it's just one more reason.

This sort of "Many Aspect" system is a great way to add flavor to your characters, and one evil GM tactic is to see if you can put them at odds with someone who shares their belief system, and see how the party or one member deals with that.

[EccentricOwl]

So, you think that #4 is the way to go?

Now, I guess I should say that it's not like it sounds unpalatable or anything. The Vactine Church in 7th Sea or the Menite faith in Iron Kingdoms both evoke the traditional imagery of the 1400s Catholic Church in all its inquisitorial fervor.

I guess I'm not afraid of being 'done,' because I mean c'mon, everyone's done something at least once. There's probably a similar setting to what I'm doing now that probably does it better.

That said... I guess there's a part of me that wants to use real-world mythology, you know? Everyone knows how Thor has a giant hammer and they might have some ideas about other deities like Coyote. I wanted to somehow include those.

Also, I guess the next question is - how to depict other religions in a meaningful way? Sure, you could make a version, but how?

Some random thoughts -

-Middle eastern religions could be inspired by Zoroastrianism, (holy flame, constant vigilance of good against evil)
-Far east religions could all fall under the veil of philosophy (a la Confucianism) or the 'celestial bureaucracy' (?)

See, I guess that's why I came looking for ideas from fellow fans of world-building. I'm kinda stumped. :P

[Stoney]

Religion as philosophy and universal world-view is all nice and good, but for most real-seeming people in the setting it will come down to practical considerations: will they be stoned if they have sex with an unsanctioned partner, or thrown a party? Can I wear a white shirt to the park on Fifth-day?

Speaking broadly, you shouldn't make any decisions about religion until you already know the culture and circumstances of the setting you're writing. Religions change with the times, and the Christianity of middle America is hardly the Christianity of the Middle Ages.

Some religions are omnipresent in society, while others are just one voice among many. My ideas of Islam are integral to the way I look at Saudi Arabia's laws, culture, and morality, but my ideas about Christianity are not necessarily integral to the way I view the U.S. Supposedly, during the 18th century Enlightenment, going to church was less common even than it is today in the U.S., and most of the founding fathers were deists.

So you first need to decide what your kingdom, country, or tribe is, and then on that basis think about what laws, customs, and systems it has. Is there a caste system? Who marries people, the church or the state (assuming your setting even has marriage). Think about the fundamental assumptions of your setting first.

Then you can add pieces in to your religion, in part based on what makes sense. If alcohol (or magic, or anything else) is forbidden in this country, it would make sense that the church/temple either originated the ban or now supports it.

Another prism through which to organize things is historical. Think about the technological age the society is in. If it's tribal, religious elders are probably in some sense one in the same as tribal elders. If it's an agrarian society, religion and government have in some sense separated and become more specialized, but even secular institutions will characterize themselves in religious terms (a divine king appointed by God, a noble who seeks the church's approval for his actions, etc.). If it's industrial or futuristic, then religion/ideology has probably been reduced in status--just a private charity, a bunch of anti-abortion zealots, and one among many in most every country/world. But not necessarily--think about the Klingons, a race who keep their honor code and their ancient ways despite having futuristic technology.

Put another way: we can't help you choose unless you tell us more about your setting :P If you can't tell us, then you have to be left to your own creative endeavor to finish the setting's religions.

[endoperez]

Read books where historical fantasy settings have been done well.

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is a fantastic Victorian drama about two wizards. There are no mythical beasts, but the magic feels weird, powerful and strange, and the faeries are alien and scary.

[Alexkubel]

personally my advice is this, had many different types of religions, some as monotheism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism could be included) some with multiple deities, others have spirit worship, even some with none (i.e. some kindness to atheists), and the entire thing can be only about which deity is real and which isn't.

[viking vince]

My answer is #1, but file off the serial number

i.e., give new names to the Powers. No one will know.

[EccentricOwl]

Well, I took your criticism to heart. I figured I'd sit down and try to create some 'versions' of real-world religions.

For context, this is for my upcoming "Terrarum Orbis" campaign setting. It's a historical fantasy world, set in a distorted-yet-recognizable version of our own world. It's nominally set on the planet Aio in the year 1700, with technology, politics, and religion all greatly resembling our own world.

http://i.imgur.com/ytuWfbw.jpg

Name
Inspiration
Key Belief
The Hierarchy
Christianity
Virtue
The Apostles
Islam
Justice

The Shamans
Shamanism
The Spirit World
The Pantheon
Hinduism
Enlightenment
The Celestial Court
Taoism, Chinese Folk Religion Harmony
The Awakened Buddhism Wisdom
The Animists Animism Union With Nature


“Religion is the art and the theory of remaking man. Man is not a complete creation.”

There is no belief throughout history that inspires more bellicose passions or sublime belief than religion. Religion as a set of collective beliefs can be dated to the invention of writing and long before. There are manifestations of power and trappings of gods, but the machinations are subtle and complex. The true nature of the divine is mysterious and tantalizing.

Most adherents fall into one of the seven religious movements listed below. These religions have seen their faith spread far and wide across Aio. There are other religions as well, and many more have come before. However, most of these are worshipped primarily by a smalller group, or have since subsumed by one of the seven faiths.

The majority of Hesperians follow the Hierarchy, a rigid and organized religious institution dedicated to following the principles of the Hierarchy’s founder, the ascended (Cool name for Christ-allegory?). The church preaches brotherhood and encourages its adherents to live their lives in accordance with numerous virtues and in avoidance vices. The Hierarchy is lead by the Hierophant, but numerous splinter movements have resulted in a fractured faith.

The second-most common faithful are the Apostles. This movement was founded several hundreds of years after the Hierarchy by a legendary figure referred to simply as the Prophet. The Prophet was a scholar who witnessed the literal and unbroken word of (Need a good name for a monotheistic God). The Apostles preach loyalty to one’s leaders, servitude towards (name of God?) and encourage a strong sense of justice. While related to the Hierarchy, the Apostles lack a formal head, with clerics and religious heads-of-state known as Caliphs interpreting much of the religion’s dogma.

Shamanism, sometimes associated with druidism, revolves around Shamans - mystical practitioners who transcend the mortal realm into the spirit world. Shamans are religious leaders, summoners, warriors, and ritualists all at once, and Shamanistic societies frequently see the tribe or village as the basic family unit and the Shaman as its head. While highly varied, societies and tribes that adhere to Shamans can be found across Aio - especially in Columbia and Tartary.

The Pantheon is a catch-all term used to describe the traditions of Indra. All sects of The Pantheon share similar rituals, scriptures, and goals of attaining enlightenment and transcending the mortal form. However, they disagree and differ on the paths to enlightenment. Some sects preach martial prowess and physical attenuation, while others encourage sobriety and cunning.

The Celestial Court is the de jure faith of Shenzhou. This complex faith encourages living in harmony with existence by encouraging relationships; Master to Servant, Father to Son, and Man to Nation. (Not sure how I feel about these) and promotes the related three virtues of Compassion, Moderation, and Humility. The faithful of the Celestial Court also worship the shen, or spirits; shen can refer to archetypes, beliefs, demigods, and folk heroes as well as ancestors.

At that point I meant to sit down and hash out the remaining two of the seven Faiths, but I didn't (and I am of course requesting your help and criticism. :P ) I gave up on writing out a section on “The Awakened.” In real life, of course, there is a very clear delineation between Buddhism and Hinduism, but I’m just not sure how to bring that out.

It’s important to note that this is written for a campaign setting; a role-playing game world where the players dive right in. It was important to me that each of the Seven Faiths were recognizable immediately - though balancing that with avoiding stereotypes is difficult.

I don’t want to sound offensive or stereotypical. I want the religions to all be *player-friendly*. Every one of them should intrigue players to the point that they don’t just write down ‘agnostic’ or ‘atheist’ on their character sheet.

Furthermore, I want to just show off that yes, there is a difference between Shamanism and Animism though there might be overlap. While words fail me, mentally I thought that Animism would represent the druidic traditions we are so familiar with in fantasy stories and games, while Shamanism represents a more mystical faith obsessed not with nature but with spirits.

[Ashtagon]

First, have a table for your thoughts so far:

{table=head] Religion (Inspiration) | Location (Inspiration) | Key Belief
The Hierarchy (Christianity) | Hesperia (Europe) | Virtue
The Apostles (Islam) | ? (presumably N. Africa, W. Asia) | Justice
The Shamans (Shamanism) | Columbia, Tartary (N. America, C. Asia) | The spirit world
The Pantheon (Hinduism) | Indra (India) | Enlightenment
The Celestial Court (Taoism, Chinese Folk Religion) | Shenzhou (E. Asia) | Harmony
|
The Awakened (Buddhism) | ? (presumably E. Asia, India) | Serenity
The Builders (Freemasonry) | ? (W. Asia) | Construction
[/table]

Here's something you could consider:

The Awakened believe that nothing is perfect, and that this world is a hell. As such, they seek perfection in nothingness. But removing all desire and worldly wants, their bring themselves closer to perfection and the nothingness-state. Only when they finally achieve perfect nothingness can they escape from this hell. They see most kinds of worldly interaction as a trap designed to create worldly wants and desires that will keep their soul tied to this world, unable to escape.

The Builders is a religion with very ancient roots, although never particularly large in numbers. They believe that the greatest way to glorify their gods is by building massive structures and decorating them with fine artwork. They exist in many sects, many of which consider each other schismatic or heretical. They have been credited with everything from Ggantija to the Egyptian Pyramids, Angkor Wat, and Mayan step pyramids. Few people today, if any, have definite knowledge of whether these credits are correct.

I'm not sure which religion you are intending to use as inspiration for your seventh.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Civilization_and_religion_map_1821.jpg has some interesting historical data, but is not politically correct at all by 20th century standards.

[Malachi Lemont]

Any room for a Jewish-inspired religion? They pretty much invented monotheism and have been a vibrant force in thousands of years of history, especially European history. Just sayin....

[Ashtagon]

Any room for a Jewish-inspired religion? They pretty much invented monotheism and have been a vibrant force in thousands of years of history, especially European history. Just sayin....

Feel free to design one. I'm not sure I can do it justice.

(Aside: Monotheism was conceived independently at least twice before Judaism)

[EccentricOwl]

First of all, cool map. "Civilized," huh? ;)

The all-important question of "Are the gods real?" echoes in numerous fantasy settings. Some, like Iron Kingdoms or Forgotten Realms, has a blunt answer - yes, very much so. Some, like Eberron, have supernatural entities that could function as gods (The Silver Flame or The Traveler are very real, though the rest of the pantheon might not be).
The priests, clerics, oracles and choristers can cast spells and channel magical energies; they can definitely heal people through the power of faith. But the source of that power should be vague; I like the idea that the source is completely unknown to science. It could very well just be the same arcane magic that wizards and warlocks use, with different trappings.

It's important to avoid stereotypes. Cliches - well, let's be honest, role-playing is filled with cliches. We need those assumptions in order to fully grasp a setting. If the Silver Flame in Eberron was some sort of strange, unknowable entity, I'd scarcely find it appealing, much less sympathetic.

With that in mind, but still holding the simultaneous desires of 'identifiable' and 'appealing,' I figured I'd take Ashtagon's suggestions (big thanks for that table as well) and try to give them a little more plausible pizazz. And might I say that 'The Builders' is very cool? It might slip in nicely as a counterpoint, adding something with very real roots but a fantastic execution.

The Hierarchy
Inspirations: When I think of Catholicism, I think of popes, pews, and paintings... but also all the fascinating history. More than just the classical architecture of Rome, I feel like the Hierarchy could really have some very Roman sentiments. Rather than gothic cathedrals, massive stone pillars dominante Temples of the Hierarchy.

In keeping with the theme of orders and layers, the Hierarchy has strict levels of initiation. The real-world church has the laity, deacons, priests, bishops, and the pope; Hierarchy might have similar positions with imposing, Latin-names. Furthermore, the faith might echo the Hellenistic mystery cults, with rare tomes, knowledge , and secrets being revealed only to those who have progressed within it. Oracular orders (the Auspexes) see deeply into mortal souls as they progress to the higher levels of the Collegium Pontifex.

All of this sounds quite cult-y, of course. It can be hard to make such a movement sound appealing. Perhaps the attraction isn't the church's rigid structure, but the message; that all mortals who worship it are automatically saved and entitled to enlightenment in paradise thanks to the sacrifice the First Martyr. The Hierarchy worships a gender-neutral (but often portrayed in imagery as female) demiurge, one that brings light and hope to the downtrodden in a monster-fille world.
Past that... well, past that I'm not sure what else could endear people and players to the religion. A message of compassion and exploration, perhaps? That those who are the most just get to return as warrior-angels?

The Apostles
Is it too wrong to take hints from Zoroastrianism? That's the first question. Both are fascinating, and really to neglect one of the world's oldest and most influential religions seems like a disservice... though simply blending it with Islam also seems like a disservice. That said, themes of religious desires for justice (a vision of a constant struggle of good versus evil, a desire to liberate the oppressed and bring hope to the hopeless) might be neat.

Again, maybe it could be re-skinned. Middle eastern scholars have been immensely influential on the world's scientific progress. Maybe the Apostles' vision of the Demiurge is that of a benevolent, exacting lawmaker; one who has dictated a series of true laws that must be obeyed. These laws should probably be stern, but fair - but said laws could also be interpreted as scientific law. "The Creator has given us this creation, and we move closer to the Creator by understanding it." Something like that maybe?

Giving it a theme of knowledge and law could set it apart from stereotypes associate with fire and holy war. Their temples and structures could be build like palaces and libraries; places where religious canon and scientific script are one in the same.

The Pantheon
Visually, what do you think of when you think of Hinduism? To me, it's the temples, first and foremost. Gigantic mandirs, towers that reach to the sky, all of them filled with huge idols and gorgeous sculpture.

Many of the deities and stories are filled not with the politicking of the Hellenistic gods but of strong leaders and multitudinous philosophies. This is to say nothing of the frequent themes of personal freedom and personal self-discovery. How could I merge all this together? I just don't know.

The Shamanists
"The Spirit World." I don't want to just end up with a bunch of Native American cliches and quotes about living with nature and getting along with The Great Spirit. No, that would be disrespectful and untrue to the fascinating reality. What if the Shamans were holy warriors in their own right? Keepers of a veil; self-selected keepers that harness positive spirits and fight off malignant ones. Is it possible to portray something similar to Tolkien's Istari ?

What would the structure of said church look like.... if there was one at all? Should it be one, or should it be a philosophical movement that arrogant Hesperians group into one faith?

[Ashtagon]

The Apostles
Is it too wrong to take hints from Zoroastrianism? That's the first question. Both are fascinating, and really to neglect one of the world's oldest and most influential religions seems like a disservice... though simply blending it with Islam also seems like a disservice. That said, themes of religious desires for justice (a vision of a constant struggle of good versus evil, a desire to liberate the oppressed and bring hope to the hopeless) might be neat.

Again, maybe it could be re-skinned. Middle eastern scholars have been immensely influential on the world's scientific progress. Maybe the Apostles' vision of the Demiurge is that of a benevolent, exacting lawmaker; one who has dictated a series of true laws that must be obeyed. These laws should probably be stern, but fair - but said laws could also be interpreted as scientific law. "The Creator has given us this creation, and we move closer to the Creator by understanding it." Something like that maybe?

Giving it a theme of knowledge and law could set it apart from stereotypes associate with fire and holy war. Their temples and structures could be build like palaces and libraries; places where religious canon and scientific script are one in the same.

Here's is a completely different and fantastical take on The Apostles.

The Apostles were founded about 1300 years ago, by an individual known today only as al-Qaddis. Under his leadership, his tribe grew strong, but he died without any obvious heir. There were four contenders to succession (his brother, his adopted son, his vizier, and his second wife).

Alternate backstory: al-Qaddis was an early medieval scribe, who wrote many books on law. He had wished to acquire a position as vizier to his king in order to build a strong city-state, but his entreaties for a place of honour in his court were rebuffed during his lifetime. After his death, interest in his writings grew, and several local kings more or less simultaneously adopted his writings as a guide to how to govern. Because their collections were incomplete, they only ever gained an incomplete view of how al-Qaddis's writings should be interpreted, resulting in the four major factions in the present day.

Today, they have split into four groups, known as the followers of Fire, Earth, Water, and Air, respectively. The followers of Fire believe in bringing justice to the world, by the sword if necessary. The followers of Earth believe in building a strong community with strong and just laws. The followers of Water wish to spread justice through the world by equitable trade and exchange of ideas, while the followers of Air believe the key to justice is a fair division of natural resources and labour. Evidence for each of them being "right" can be found in their common holy books, known simply as "The Codices of al-Qaddis."

This allows various tropes to be played out:

Fire: Military strength vs. holy war
Earth: Strong community vs. witch-hunt
Water: Trade and education vs. loss of competitive advantage
Air: social welfare vs. economic stagnation and bureaucracy

Backstory of the origin is mutable, but I really like the idea of making it traditional element-based)

For The Hierarchy, do you want to emulate any of the schismatic elements of Christianity (the most notable groupings for the relevant historical period are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and possibly Oriental)? For game purposes, the most important distinction seems to be whether the grouping considers the pope-equivalent to be the head of the church, or if their bishop (or even local church0 is autonomous. Perhaps the Sacellum (from TORG's Orrorsh (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3191) supplement) could provide inspiration?

[Ashtagon]

Shamanism:

I'm thinking here of creating something that merges aspects of North American traditions, celtic religion, shintoism, prehistoric religion, and Australian aborigine mythology. Does this match how expect this religion to fit into your campaign setting?

[EccentricOwl]

No, I think it very much does. Shamanism is such an old part of human history, it's going to of course be varied - and it's going to have a lot of adherents, too.

Edit: And for the Hierarchy, I'm thinking that it could be downright critical to keep some of the internecine conflict.

[johnbragg]

For The Hierarchy, do you want to emulate any of the schismatic elements of Christianity (the most notable groupings for the relevant historical period are Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and possibly Oriental)? For game purposes, the most important distinction seems to be whether the grouping considers the pope-equivalent to be the head of the church, or if their bishop (or even local church0 is autonomous. Perhaps the Sacellum (from TORG's Orrorsh (http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=3191) supplement) could provide inspiration?

Another option is the supremacy of a Great Council, with the Patriarch/Pope/Metropolitan/Caliph as first-among-equals with more prestige than actual power. Bishops are not autonomous, they are subject to the authority of the Council of Bishops. (In real history, this was known as the Conciliar movement, and solved the crisis of having two conflicting Popes.) The idea is that "Where two or three are gathered in my name, I (God) am in their midst", therefore an assembly of church notables will act under divine guidance.

[Ashtagon]

Born out of a polytheistic religion, the Hierarchy’s religious writings are sharply divided between the older and newer books. The divide is marked when MNV, the old pantheon’s goddess of wisdom and virtue, recognised the ways in which the old gods held back humanity (who in turn fought against an even older and less virtuous set of gods, and so on ad infinitum). As she cast off her ties with the old gods, she cast off the name that had been placed on her, freeing herself of the limits imposed by the old order upon her virtue; after this event, she was known simply as the demiurge.

As above, so below. Simultaneous with MNV’s overthrow of her pantheon, the Megali Gefyra of her temple led a purge in the Acropolis, declaring the site apostate, and moving the centre of worship to Thessaloniki, closest city to Mt Olympus. This marked the start of the modern calendar.

The Roman Empire quickly ordered her death. According to legend, as the soldiers were closing in on her new temple, she ascended to the heavens on a stairway of light. An alternate legend holds that she was captured, sentenced to death by wild animals, and as taken up to the heavens from the arena before the emperor’s own eyes. Yet another account holds that she was martyred, killed by imperial soldiers while resisting arrest. The Hierarchy itself teaches all legends, and claims that the virtuous will know the truth as inspiration.

The new religion quickly gained converts even as it was persecuted (the old gods were, was well as a religious body, also heavily involved in the financing industry of the day). Eventually, the Roman Empire recognised The Hierarchy as the state religion, and a new grand acropolis was built in Byzantion, which had already become the new imperial capital by that time.

The Hierarchy does not claim that the demiurge is the ultimate perfection of virtue; simply that she is the most virtuous being currently in existence. She will one day be replaced by an even more virtuous being, in an event known variously as Armageddon, Ragnarok, Frashokereti, Domesday, the Great Tribulation, and many other names.

notes for next post:

So far, we have a monotheistic religion born out of an Ancient Groman (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AncientGrome) pantheistic religion, centred in Byzantion. This is going to be the core location for the Hierarchy.

I'm planning on a Western Orthodox schism centred in Avignon, which in the far west (British Isles) will have a very recent "localism" schism in which individual temples are autonomous.

In Rome, a separate heretical movement holds that the old gods (with new names) are angels in the service of the demiurge, to be worshipped as such.

The Oriental Orthodox movement claims that the Great Temptator is the equal of the Demiurge, and that mankind alone holds the power to tip the balance into virtue.

A heretical movement based in Oslo, Norway claims the religion was founded in almost identical circumstances in Bath, except from a different set of old pantheistic gods, and with the Roman empire replaced with various local tribal chiefs. There were other such movements (Bath, England; and Vilnius, Lithuania)

[Lpaulb116]

So far I really like this. So far my only problem with some of these (mostly just the Apostles) is that some of them twist real world names of organizations. For some people those names have power and meaning.

On a different note (although related tangentally) I would change the names from English to a corrupted form of a language from where they are found on Earth.

P.S. I really like the Awakened

[Ashtagon]

So far I really like this. So far my only problem with some of these (mostly just the Apostles) is that some of them twist real world names of organizations. For some people those names have power and meaning.

On a different note (although related tangentally) I would change the names from English to a corrupted form of a language from where they are found on Earth.

P.S. I really like the Awakened

Regarding the apostles: The only terms I see that may relate to real world are the prophet and al-Qaddis. "Prophet is reasonably generic, and is a common word in English. "al-Qaddis" literally means "the saint" or "the wise one", and is also a really generic word within the languages that use the word (I pulled it from Maltese). Heck, I've been referred to as that at one time (while visiting a Catholic church). I did find out after writing this that al-Quds is the Arabic name for Jerusalem, and it uses the same Semitic triliteral root.

If there is something specific that you (or anyone really) find objectionable, I'd love to know. I'm trying hard to make these not be straight re-skins of real world religions, but have an interesting history that, while superficially similar in some aspects, is internally consistent and noticeably different enough to be considered its own entity.

[Lpaulb116]

If there is something specific that you (or anyone really) find objectionable, I'd love to know. I'm trying hard to make these not be straight re-skins of real world religions, but have an interesting history that, while superficially similar in some aspects, is internally consistent and noticeably different enough to be considered its own entity.
I personally don't have a problem with it... But some might.

Just a warning.

[Ashtagon]

I personally don't have a problem with it... But some might.

Just a warning.

Fair enough. The Apostles is purely a fictional religion though. Maybe I'll rename its founder as bin-hakim. Or maybe iġ-ġobon ik-kabir. (bilingual joke)

[OttoVonBigby]

First off, I think this setting idea sounds very cool. I tried an alternate history campaign set around this time and, while the prep was fun, I found it confining when it came to actually GMing it. Making it a fantastical mutation of real history seems like it'd fix that issue nicely.

As to the religion question, it seems to me that #2 might work. I think the notion that it "Genericizes many myths into a button-choice" is strictly a matter of role-playing; in the hands of the right player, this could be a great way to distinguish each and every religious character. It'd have a slightly more D&D-domain-ish feel (whether that's good or bad, YMMV).

The downside seems to be that players will split into basically two attitudes about their gods: (1) "God of War, sure, whatever" and (2) "I'm gonna research the hell (so to speak) out of this god", the latter of which could result in the "overwhelming variety" problem.

On the surface, #4 seems like it might be less initial legwork for you, but #2 isn't so much more. Let the players decide how much legwork they want to do. Of course, the trouble with that is you run the risk of stereotyping coming from the players, which could get real ugly real fast. :) #4 certainly gives you (and prospective DMs) more control. And #4 does strike me as more plausible, assuming an "alternate history" stretching back very far indeed.

[zabbarot]

Fair enough. The Apostles is purely a fictional religion though. Maybe I'll rename its founder as bin-hakim. Or maybe iġ-ġobon ik-kabir. (bilingual joke)

Going on what Lpaulb116 said, a change of name could be as simple as "The Apostles of __________". Since like you said, Apostle as a word isn't really tied to a specific religion. The assumption just happens to be that someone is speaking about apostles of Christ, since that the most common use anyone hears in western civilization.

TL;DR: adding some context to the name should be enough to avoid upsetting people.

[Rogerd]

-Middle eastern religions could be inspired by Zoroastrianism, (holy flame, constant vigilance of good against evil)
-Far east religions could all fall under the veil of philosophy (a la Confucianism) or the 'celestial bureaucracy' (?)

Okay I'm using a combination of both Zoroastrian myths combined with Hindu and Islam to create mine.

Ahura Mazda (God) and Ahriman were both created by a four-faced god, and could easily be Zurvan, Phanes or Brahma.

Yazata beings of light, a la angels. Some of whom were deceived by Ahriman to become Demons. Lucifer then rebelled slightdly later to be cast from heaven.

Jinn are gods of old, and were originally called the Elder gods. Those that came after warred with one another to create the Daevas and the Asuras.

Amesha Spentas are 'Bounteous Immortals' and while generally interpreted as
ArchAngels, they could easily be immortals that could have formed the Celestial Court - or use mythology again. There are the Xian, which are split into various categories.

EDIT: What I'm then doing is writing up each race like a wikia page so that I can get as much detail as possible and by doing so it should help jar out some other useful creative ideas.


History
Origin
Few know that humans were not the first sentient species to rule the world. Tens of millions of years ago, another species thrived, building great cities, developing amazing technology, amassing vast empires, and exploring space.

Many world governments view them as aliens like the Greys and in doing so are both right and wrong. Although they have journeyed to Earth from space, Terra is their original home. More importantly, it is their only home, for they have nowhere else to go. In their time the Earth was a very different place, and it was all one big continent known as Pangea.

Slowly the hot climate that had ruled the Earth for so long began to cool. The seas began to recede. Flowering plants added to the beauty of the lush landscape dominated by dinosaurs. Among these was a species of bipedal carnivores unidentified by human palaeontologists. It was these beings that would make that crucial evolutionary leap from pack hunters to sentient tool users.

Although they acknowledge that they were the creation of either the Yazata or the Ahura, they had no way to properly identifying which being of light was their progenitor, and when they did manifest by taking their vessel no way to know for sure whether the form taken was true, or false. As such their historians became rather laissez faire about the whole thing in that it didn’t really mater a whole heap.

They began life as bipedal carnivores, hunting in packs. The species evolved, learning to use tools, build shelter, and create social groups. As they fought their way to sentience, complex societies were formed. Tribes could be found in nearly every region of the planet, although much higher concentrations settled nearest the equator. These groups hunted in packs, following the game herds as they migrated. Being carnivores, the idea of planting and growing crops did not come until much, much later (long after the founding of cities). Even then, crops were only used to feed domesticated herbivores that would in turn feed them. A steady supply of food was ensured, but most did not develop a taste for bread as humans did.

Around the world different groups came together to build towns that became centres of religious and social life and hubs for trade of manufactured goods. These cities grew slowly at first, as they were located in hilly or mountainous regions. Protection from the predatory dinosaurs that scoured the jungles below was more important than growth. Over the next four and a half thousand years, Saurian cultures around the world grew, developed, peaked, and collapsed, each leaving their mark on those that succeeded them.

They discovered the value of trade, the problems of inter-cultural communication, and the horror of war. Having developed in so many disparate lands, their culture was varied, not only in language and religion, but in world outlook, and fundamental patterns of behaviour. Usually the confusion from the collision of culture resulted in war. Ironically these wars led to more intercultural penetration than any trading could have accomplished.

One thing these cultures had in common was a strong respect for the land. The Earth of the Saurian race was a far more volatile place. Tectonic shifting produced earthquakes on a regular basis, natural predators were enormous and fearsome, and even the foliage offered challenges. Respect for the Earth played an important role in early Saurian religion and philosophy. To desecrate or destroy the land was to make it angry. In later years, when they became industrialized, the Saurian people preferred to harm their environment as little as possible with their creations.

Rise of Technology
Living in the highlands and mountains, they quickly learned to shape and work the rock around them to build walls to keep out predators, and weapons to kill prey. The leap from stone to metal took place independently around the world in several different locations, offering stronger tools and deadlier weapons. During the long Saurian Iron Age, the properties of magnetic ore were discovered, and it was not particularly useful until one individual discovered what happens when you spin a magnet within a coil of copper: electricity.

Experiments with electricity were pursued with the kind of fervour and dedication that is a cultural trademark of the Saurians, inventing primitive electric generators and even chemical batteries. They used these ancient power plants in disparate tasks from starting fires to electrifying fences and weapons to treating illness. Long before they had learned that the Earth was round or discovered the arch, column, or gear, the saurian race were experimenting with electricity. Nor was this discovery limited to one tribe. When the unfortunate discoverers of electricity were attacked and subdued by a neighbouring tribe, their discovery began to spread. By harnessing geothermal heat, flowing water, and natural gas as the main sources of power, electrical plants soon appeared all over the planet.

Another development at this time was the emergence of animal husbandry. The raising of animals for meat was the first priority in many societies, but they soon found that dinosaurs could be used as beasts of burden and as mounts to aid in travel. Harnesses dotted with electrodes and attached to large chemical batteries allowed the owner to administer shocks to train and control the creatures whenever the beast misbehaved. Most soon learned which species of dinosaur was the more intelligent and which were only suitable for portage or food supplies.

Over the centuries, many species of dinosaur learned the basics of domestication. The beasts were used in trading caravans to carry large amounts of goods over great distances. In warfare, they carried soldiers into battle, sprinted around enemy concentrations in flanking manoeuvres, and were released on their own to run amok through the enemy lines. Some smaller creatures were trained to act as guards to warn against intruders.

Having no need or desire for clothing, Saurians still wished to become more aesthetically pleasing and to set each individual apart. From ancient times they wore jewellery, usually made from rocks, crystals, or the bones of dead prey. While different cultures or castes underwent certain types of piercing or even electrical branding to show their place in society, this lead to decorative piercing, ritual scarification, and branding.

Although racially all look similar (there is no wide variation in natural pigmentation or build), for over 8000 years one nationality could be discerned from another by the way they decorated their bodies. With the discovery of medicinal plants came the revolutionary discovery of tattooing. Plants were found that could be used to create dyes that would colour the skin for weeks at a time; this lead to even greater differentiation among family and cultural groups, with many societies tattooing their children at birth to mark their heritage.

A scientist discovered a variety of plants that alleviated pain, produced hallucinogenic effects, and even helped cure certain types of sickness. One of the most common uses was controlling the strong emotional cycles that plagued all Saurians. It was found that certain combinations of herbs brewed together produced a levelling effect, smoothing out the bio-chemical mood swings that had ruled Saurian existence.

Characteristics
Physical Appearance
The one confirmed Saurian race is reptilian in appearance. They average six feet in height and 210 lbs. in weight. The one confirmed race of saurian is a bipedal species with a vaguely reptilian appearance. They stand roughly the height of a human adult. Their thick skin is dark and patterned, hairless and not scaled. Their legs are birdlike, with an extended heel that looks like a backward knee. The head is large, with small eyes and a protruding snout. Hands are three-fingered with an opposable thumb. A prominent tail, used for balancing the forward-leaning stance, reaches roughly two-thirds.

Behaviour
Unlike the other races Saurian’s are reluctant to interact directly with the general population and this is almost certainly due to their desire for secrecy and an inability to look human easily. Their practice of working through the Black Book has had more direct effect on human society than any realize, however, and few secret military programs are without some trace of their influence. Their operations, and the nature of their treaties and deals with the Black Book, have caused some analysts to speculate that they are directing the growth and development of the U.S. military-industrial community for some undetermined purpose. Theories as to their goals include the construction or repair of some advanced technology, the building of technological infrastructure capable of supporting trade with the saurian species, the creation of a target worth conquering, and the development of human skills to make the race useful as slave labour. The least likely of these theories posits that Saurians act merely out of genuine goodwill and the desire to further human knowledge.

Abilities
Biology
They communicate using a variety of non-verbal cues, able to change colours, much like that of a chameleon. Although it varies from individual to individual, it is usually some shade of brown, green, grey, or red. These shades darken and lighten or even change entirely depending on mood and intentions. Furthermore, patterns of different shades are common, allowing it to express ideas in an even more refined manner. Initially, this ability was simply a natural reaction to external stimuli, but as the Saurians evolved, they came to exert conscious control over their pigmentation.

This control is not perfect, however, and they sometimes change colours involuntarily when subjected to emotional stress. All have a very sensitive sense of smell coupled with an advanced pheromone system. They emit a variety of odours relative to their emotional and mental state. Most of these are undetectable to the human nose, but to a Saurian, these smells are as eloquent as human facial expressions.

Their brain sections are shaped and textured differently to a human’s, and their brainwave patterns are different and drugs and chemicals do not have the same effect. As a result their reaction to stimuli is also very different. Survival, reproduction, physical pleasure, and pain are primary motivators. Duty and honour are usually the most abstract concepts considered and these generally derive from fear of punishment and desire to rise higher in society and receive a greater share of resources.

Traits
Average Level: Most are on average 3-4 times physically superior to the average human and this means they are the equal of all Olympic athletes combined. As such that means any one Olympic athlete would their equal in one field, and nothing more, the net affect is that any one human is hopelessly outclassed in a physical confrontation.

Acute Senses (Smell):
Natural Armour:
Natural Weapons:
Psychic Void: Are totally unable to be affected by mental powers, although physical ones still work

Environmental
Habitat
Those that remained on Earth when the meteor impacted the Yucatan Peninsula were forced underground and reside in a large underground cavern called Agartha, where they maintain numerous cities. Others that managed to create spaceships, some created bases on some of the moons or planets in the solar system, but for the most part they left the system entirely and could be found in one of the many the litter the cosmos.

Gravity: Earth normal
Atmosphere: Prefer Humid
Population: Around ten million live beneath the surface of the Earth in an underground cavern known as Agartha

Miscellaneous
Government
Saurian society is authoritarian and violent. They sever ties to their biological parents, giving their loyalty to a crèche-like communal family. Families are each ruled by a Lord.

Technology
Saurian technology is based on advanced particle physics and wave mechanics. From the few samples of Saurian technology recovered, they appear hundreds of years more advanced in the physical sciences. While the basic principles behind the technology are understandable, their application is far beyond current human capacity. Saurian devices routinely manipulate energy in ways that seem to defy the modern wisdom of physics, and the raw power they harness for common activities exceeds projections of humanity’s abilities for the foreseeable future. They unlocked the secrets of the universe and twisted nature to suit their needs. Now, sixty-five million years later, the masters of Earth have returned. For their own reasons, they remain in the shadows, hiding their existence from mankind. They have chosen a few human groups to work with, but even these allies do not know their true origin or their true purpose.

Anti-gravity: In reality, anti-gravity devices create powerful magnetic fields that push away from the Earth, allowing objects to float and even fly. Obviously, the farther you are from the Earth, the more powerful the drive must be. Anyone caught under an operating drive experiences an odd tingling and pushing sensation. Most are capable of supersonic travel and nearly instantaneous acceleration. It is also designed to be capable of low-Earth-orbit altitudes.

Body-Morphing: The refinement of matter/energy conversion technology allowed each Saurian nation to take their particular body alteration or decoration practices one step further. Body morphing was first used to rebuild dinosaurs into more useful forms. Many soon began using it en mass. With body morphing, a Saurian’s natural attributes could be moulded into new and more useful forms. Soldiers could have their natural physical state enhanced beyond the levels produced by even the most rigorous training regimen. The only thing that could not be changed was the brain.

Data Siphon: One of these is an inch-wide piece of paper-thin metal, one side of which is covered with an adhesive (often the siphons are made to resemble warning stickers that go on the inside of computers). Placing the sticker anywhere within twelve inches of a digital storage medium allows it to record and transmit every piece of data contained on it. Already these siphons are in every computer in the major Wall Street law firms, trading houses, and financial offices, providing them with all the information they need to manipulate the markets. This data is retrieved by relatively large absorption base units. These units are usually contained in dark coloured vans. They must be within 800 feet of the siphon to be downloaded. The absorption base unit triggers the siphon with a pre-programmed signal, and the siphon uploads its data in a burst transmission lasting less than a second.

Death Monitor: This device monitors the Naga’s body functions and upon death activates destroying all evidence of their existence by creating a plasma bomb.

Fighters:

Forcefields: They undertook multi-megaton scale nuclear warhead testing inside of a containment field, although many have scaled this down to more useful personal use. They are split into different functions. Mode I: This works against energy attacks; Mode II works against kinetic attacks.

Fusion Bomb: A small device no more than inches in size, usually with an adhesive surface that can allow it to stick to most surfaces.

Matter-Energy Conversion: This process, it made it possible to manufacture high-tech items at a fraction of their former cost, and it also allowed the synthesizing of food, water, and air as long as there were raw materials. Some even used these devices to hollow asteroids out and seal the hulls for quick and easy spaceships.

Pharmacology: The drug left the user slightly foggy in the mind as it also dulled those emotions that gave them clarity of thought and concentration during times of crisis. Over the centuries, the brew was refined down to its basic elements and turned into concentrated serum that could be ingested or injected. The drug is still used to this day, and most side effects have been eliminated. They also experimented in diseases, toxins and viruses. One of their worst had a dormancy period of about two weeks, but it was highly contagious from day one. The disease, a form of flesh-eating bacteria, ate away at the insides of its victims turning their organs and bones into jelly in a matter of hours once it became active, leaving hardly any remains to bury. Many also utilise a needler gun which has a fast acting nerve agent.

Power Generation: Possessing miniature fusion reactors, though incredibly powerful by terrestrial standards, are extremely common pieces of Saurian technology. Each toaster-sized device is capable of matching the output of any full-size terrestrial power plant. Given the ready supply of such vast quantities of power, most Saurian tech is fantastically power hungry. Most large pieces of Saurian equipment come with a dedicated internal generator, but they usually have a few portable units handy for backup or supplemental power.

Presser Beam: For that, they use a presser beam—a flat, rectangular device held in the palm of the hand. The device projects a powerful beam of anti-gravity energy that hits a target like a physical blow. In this way, troublesome slaves can be held to the ground or against a wall while restraints are brought to bear.

Pulse Detonation Engines: While magnetic drives provide lift for Saurian vehicles, but do not propel them. The standard drive is the pulse detonation engine. The engine uses a small fusion generator to create a series of rapid, controlled explosions of energy. This allows for both great speed and great manoeuvrability since most ships can redirect the force in any direction. This would allow them, in theory, to turn on a dime. Of course, internal stresses must still be accounted for, as well as those exerted on any crew or cargo.

Pulse Device: Because they make such extensive use of electromagnetic and subatomic fields, all of their equipment is heavily shielded against outside interference. The device looks like a small black disk four inches in diameter and half an inch thick, usually worn like a patch somewhere on the Naga’s body.

Space-fold Drive: With their advanced study and understanding of particle physics, scientists were able to do just that. They created a device that would allow them to fold space, and travel amazing distances in the blink of the eye although the gravitational pull of stars, planets, moons and even asteroids all interfered with the folding process.

Spaceships: They have a variety of different ones. Also, all craft are equipped with defensive screens that jam opposing missiles or plasma balls.

• Interceptors: The crescent-shaped interceptor is the most common of the Saurian spacecraft in operation on Earth, a hybrid intended for both utility and combat. Although the ship is fast and manoeuvrable like a fighter, it is also capable of carrying over a ton of cargo with no reduction in performance.

• Pursuit Cruiser: It is a flat, disc-shaped central hull 750 feet in diameter and 100 feet thick. Twelve 120 feet arms project out from the central hull, each a cylinder 30 feet in diameter. Each arm holds an individual launching bay for four interceptors, making the cruiser’s normal compliment 48 attack craft. This system of arms allows the cruiser to launch and retrieve numerous of interceptors quickly, but it does leave the interceptors exposed while they are docked.

The cruisers come equipped with medical facilities (including a body morphing chamber) and a repair bay (including a large M/E converter). The crews of the interceptors have quarters adjacent to the launching arms, allowing access to their ships in just a few minutes. The rest of the ship is given over to the crew and command staff. The ship can also carry 250 Gna-Tall non-crew members. In the very centre of the central hub is a large atrium with artificial lighting designed to recreate the climate of the Naga homeland.

It contains plants and even animals kept alive for hunting purposes as a form of recreation for the crew. The pursuit cruiser has a battery of twelve plasma generators, mounted on the tips of the twelve launching arms. Each has its own gunner for firing or guiding the plasma balls. The pursuit carrier uses anti-grav and pulse detonation propulsion systems.

• Scout: This is a recent development and designed to be fast, manoeuvrable, and nearly undetectable. The ship is roughly 20 feet from side to side, and 13 feet from tip to tail. It has a very low profile, and the single pilot stretches out almost horizontally when piloting. There is room for little more than the pilot and his equipment.

Stunners: Often disguised to look like a pen, a flashlight, or a lighter, this item creates a powerful burst of electromagnetic energy that is keyed to human brainwave patterns. The result is brain overload and shutdown, effectively rendering the target unconscious. The device has a range of only 15 feet, and usually only has five charges.

Weapons: Most of the items recovered, several are personal weapons that resemble prosthetics. This suggests that they prefer to use weapons that appear as extensions of their bodies rather than tools. One such device, covering the arm to the elbow, has earned the name plasma claw.

• Force tube is an object that fires an invisible packet of plasma energy encased in a magnetic field and it is usually mounted on fighters.

• Plasma weaponry fires contained plasma bolts roughly under user control, which can melt nearly any material, including most types of vehicle and ship armour. The weapon has no ammunition, but an energy source of unknown operation is evident. Extensive testing does not appear to have diminished the charge present within it.

Culture
Interfamily relations are generally cooperative, but controversy and dissent do exist and can cause them to erupt into a state of all-out war. Their culture is based on these consuming but infrequent conflicts, and all are genetically wired for combat. Existing in a constant state of tension, relieved only by the outbreak of hostilities, and saurians are always wary of outsiders, unexpected alliances, treachery, and kindness. It is a rare generation that does not experience war. While not the basis of their life, war is nearly inevitable.

Members
This is unknown at the current time, although it is believed that some have appeared in mythology throughout the world.

[Ashtagon]

Shamanism

What has gone before:
Shamanism, sometimes associated with druidism, revolves around Shamans - mystical practitioners who transcend the mortal realm into the spirit world. Shamans are religious leaders, summoners, warriors, and ritualists all at once, and Shamanistic societies frequently see the tribe or village as the basic family unit and the Shaman as its head. While highly varied, societies and tribes that adhere to Shamans can be found across Aio - especially in Columbia and Tartary.

----

Furthermore, I want to just show off that yes, there is a difference between Shamanism and Animism though there might be overlap. While words fail me, mentally I thought that Animism would represent the druidic traditions we are so familiar with in fantasy stories and games, while Shamanism represents a more mystical faith obsessed not with nature but with spirits.

----

Name: The Shamans (Shamanism)
Location: Columbia, Tartary (N. America, C. Asia)
Key Belief: The spirit world

----

The Shamanists

"The Spirit World." I don't want to just end up with a bunch of Native American cliches and quotes about living with nature and getting along with The Great Spirit. No, that would be disrespectful and untrue to the fascinating reality. What if the Shamans were holy warriors in their own right? Keepers of a veil; self-selected keepers that harness positive spirits and fight off malignant ones. Is it possible to portray something similar to Tolkien's Istari ?

What would the structure of said church look like.... if there was one at all? Should it be one, or should it be a philosophical movement that arrogant Hesperians group into one faith?

Licensing Note:
This is, with trivial changes (removed references to elves and dwarves), the pantheon I brewed for my own fantasy campaign. I'd like to retain some level of ownership over it. EccentricOwl, you have non-transferable permission to use this for non-commercial purposes.


Pele, The Wrath of Nature

Pele of the Storm, the wrath of nature, god of storms, thunder, and lightning
Pele of the Oceans, the wrath of nature, god of seas, floods, and the ocean deep
Pele of the Frost, the wrath of nature, god of winter and snow

The Three Sisters

Mother Hesta, goddess of the dawn, fertility, healing, and childbirth
Mother Priyah, goddess of friendship, love, and marriage.
Mother Rigan, the crone, goddess of twilight and prophecy

The Three Fears (link (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=596))

Ilaki, the blinding light, the fear of dark
Ishbok, the spear of justice, the fear of hurt
Keso, the eternal one, the fear of change

The lords of Hope

Janos, king of kings, lord of courage, the vanguard general, god of the daylit sky.
Lewani the cornucopia, goddess of the fields and the harvest
Danu the traveller, the wanderer afar, god of rivers and trade
Viranos, keeper of the dead, god of the underworld, sleep, and dreams.
Shemsh, the forge that made the world, god of the Sun, fire, and the forge
Meneth the Moon goddess, the scribe, lady of letters, keeper of truths and untruths, the shadow in the night, the laughing deceiver, lady luck

The lords of Doom

An-An, the night spider, the crawler in the dark, goddess of fear and panic
Arezon, the burning hate, the towering inferno, god of deserts and desolation
Mardos, lord of flies, god of blight, disease, and despair
Kaltha the ravager, the princess bathed in blood, the queen of blades
Marta the unmaker, the death of deaths (undead)
Annodam, the beast within, god of nightmares and lunacy (werewolves)



Pele (one deity with three distinct aspects) is the sole greater god. The three fears and the three mothers are all intermediate deities. The remaining twelve deities are lesser deities.

In the time before memory, the world was wild and uncivilised. All that existed was the primal force of Pele, the Wrath of Nature. In the randomness that was chaos, all things must eventually come to pass. Slowly, other divine essences coalesced from the chaos. These were born from the needs and fears of primitive mankind. The first of these were the three fears, representing the fears every new life faces, and the three sisters, guardians of the cycle of life from birth through adulthood to old age. In time, more and more deities covering more and more subtle fields of hope and fear achieved consciousness, powered by beliefs and emotions from the ever-more complex.

Individuals of the shamanism faith recognise all these deities as spirits to be venerated or placated according to their present needs. An offering would be made to Marta when an ill-omened battlefield must be visited. A shaman might channel the spirit of Kaltha into his comrades before a battle. When a bad harvest or plague occurs, Mardos is blamed. In many cases, such as with Pele himself, these are simply uncaring forces of nature and time, and while their actions are recognised, it is understood that they are uncaring about humanity's fate.

[Ashtagon]

I'm seeing several "phases" in the greater mythography of this imagined universe:

Prehistoric: The Shamans and the Builders are the dominant religion. This explains their global reach; both are ultimately "out of Africa".

Ancient: "Classical" polytheistic religions arise, including Mayincatec, Norse, Groman, Sumerian, and Egyptian pantheons. Possibly a case of ancient astronauts. These all eventually collapse into obscurity.

The Pantheon, the Celestial Court, and the Awakened possibly arise during this period.

Modern: Hierarchy, Apostles arise.

[EccentricOwl]

Okay I'm using a combination of both Zoroastrian myths combined with Hindu and Islam to create mine.


Whoah. A fascinating take on the situation; a cool syncretic take on real-world religions combined with some interesting sci-fi. :)

[Rogerd]

Whoah. A fascinating take on the situation; a cool syncretic take on real-world religions combined with some interesting sci-fi. :)

Glad you like it, feel free to steal anything you want. lol

The idea sort of came to my mind after reading a short story about the real Jinn watching how the world was changing as synthetic Jinn were created in the form of holographic AI.s

Or switch again, and have all the gods have corporeal form - but the myths of angels came from the gods using holographic communication, sort of like in Star Wars.

[Ashtagon]

Or switch again, and have all the gods have corporeal form - but the myths of angels came from the gods using holographic communication, sort of like in Star Wars.

I'm trying to write my take on this idea with the assumption that the supernatural is real, that "all (in-game) religions are true (in-game)", but that no mortal knows the real truth about exactly how the universe works.

I think Stargate SG1 did the definitive work on the "aliens are gods" trope. It's a fun trope, and have fun developing it, but I'm not sure it's compatible with what I'm aiming for.

[Ashtagon]

Timeline of schisms: The Hierarchy

(nb. AD stands for Anno Demiurgus; BD stands for Before Civilisation. The traditional dating system marks the rise of the demiurge as the start of the civilised world. Without the demiuyrge, people were at best in some sort of proto-civilised state.)

0 AD: The ''megali gefyra'' and the demiurge overthrow the old gods in Athens, and the centre of the new cult is moved to Thessaloniki.

early 1st C. AD: Simultaneously (in historical terms), similar revolts against the old gods occur in Oslo (Norway), Bath (England), Vilnius (Lithuania), Lagash (Kuwait), and Thebes (Egypt).

late 1st C AD: The concept of the "Great Temptator" arises. This demonic figure is seen as a remnant of past times that pulls people back from virtuous lives.

2nd-5th C AD: These multiple religious movements come in contact with each other, and noting their obvious similarities and differences, declare each other heretics, starting an age of religious conflict. At various times during the collapse of the Groman Empire, one or another of these cults is adopted and then dropped as the official state version of the Hierarchy. This eventually dies down as the Temple in Greece achieves dominance.

4th C AD: Capital of the Groman Empire moved to Byzantion. The Great Temple is simultaneously moved to Byzantion from Thessaloniki.

6th C AD: Missionaries spread the word into Asia and Africa (known as the Oriental and Meridional branches).

7th C AD: The rise of the Apostles in the middle east cuts off the Oriental and Meridional branches of the Hierarchy. These two branches begin to develop independently.

The Oriental Temple (based in Kazakhstan, but with adherents in as far south as Persia and as far east as western China and northern India) gradually evolves the concept of the Great Temptator being the equal of the Demiurge. Only mankind's struggle towards virtue can tip the cosmic balance in favour of the Demiurge in the eternal struggle for good against evil (Design note: The Oriental Temple is inspired by Zoroastrianism).

The Meridional Temple (based in Tanzania, with followers as far north as Ethiopia and Sudan) that the Demiurge divided herself into a million parts, and that a small part of the Demiurge resides in every virtuous person. By being more virtuous than before, that tiny spark of the Demiurge will grow and divide, allowing more people to be filled with those new sparks of the Demiurge. They have a massive temple-palace on the island of Zanzibar, known as "Beit li-Mtoni" (Mtoni Palace). Here, the Shah (who doubles as the archbishop of the Meridional Temple) rules over his theocratic state. It is said that various ancient holy relics are kept inside one of the treasure vaults.

8th-9th C AD: The Apostles religion spreads out from the middle east, cutting off the Oriental and Meridional Temples.

early 13th C AD: Byzantion falls to Turkic invaders spreading the law of the Apostles. The Great Temple is rebuilt at Thessaloniki.

late 13th C AD: Schism in Avignon. The bishop of Avignon holds that Byzantion's fall was divine punishment for a lack of virtue. The bishop of Thessaloniki is declared heretic. Avignon forms the centre of a movement covering France, Spain, and Britain, in which individual bishops are considered autocephalic (self-headed), recognising that no mere mortal can be more virtuous than a bishop. The Council of Bishops meets in Avignon every four years to discuss ecumenical matters. The chief differences are that the Western Temple does not recognise the pre-eminence of Thessaloniki, it preaches introspection and monasticism as the best way to achieve virtue (vs. doing good works), and it denies the existence of a Great Temptator, preaching instead that failure to achieve virtue is a failing within the person and not an external Great Temptator pulling the person from virtue.

15th C AD: Cult of the Saint grows in Italy. This cult preaches that the Old Gods are saints to be worshipped in their own right, as mighty servants of the Demiurge. This cult is tolerated by Thessaloniki, as the bishops still respect the pre-eminence of Thesaloniki in other matters of doctrine.

16th C AD: Johannes Ludovicz of Danzig (Poland) proclaims what is to become the Reformation. Inspired by the idea that the megali gefyra of Thessaloniki has no suzerainty over other bishops, it follows that no man holds divine office over other men. Priests are recognised only as discussion leaders, but that virtue lies in individuals, a direct rejection of Hierarchy, favouring individual pursuit of a common goal in virtue. This new sect quickly spreads through Germany, Scandinavia, and the British Isles.

17th C AD: Britain is embroiled in a series of succession wars, as various royal family branches, championing different strains of the Hierarchy's faith, war against each other. The primary division is between "Alban orthodoxy" and the "new reformation".

[Rogerd]

I'm trying to write my take on this idea with the assumption that the supernatural is real, that "all (in-game) religions are true (in-game)", but that no mortal knows the real truth about exactly how the universe works.

Look forward to seeing it.


I think Stargate SG1 did the definitive work on the "aliens are gods" trope. It's a fun trope, and have fun developing it, but I'm not sure it's compatible with what I'm aiming for.

Fair enough. Yeah Stargate did a good version of it, but I do prefer how Trek does it (I'm including the books and stuff when I say this).

[Cyclone231]

Past that... well, past that I'm not sure what else could endear people and players to the religion. A message of compassion and exploration, perhaps? That those who are the most just get to return as warrior-angels?For people, well, cults tend to attract people. That's why they exist despite the social costs. They provide a sense of belonging, purpose, "specialness" and community. They provide hope in difficult times. They let people (believe that they) have a handle on truth.

For players... honestly, there are players who will be completely incapable of dealing with any monotheistic religion in games for personal reasons. There's no way around them. Just provide a clear and interesting philosophy that lends itself to PCs and it'll work for the rest. The common Christian emphasis on personal virtue rather than impersonal social good (e.g. "you should give to the poor" rather than "society should alleviate poverty") is itself pretty good for PCs, so play it up a bit.

Also: If you like Zoroastrianism, why not use it for your not!Catholics? Dualism is a more common heresy in Christianity (Gnostics, Cathars, Bogomilists, etc) than in Islam, as far as I'm aware. Islam/Zoroastrianism has been done (R'hllor springs to mind), but I can't remember any dualistic not!Catholics (AFAIK they aren't even dualists in 7th Sea, which is funny because they are supposed to be pseudo-Gnostics). At the risk of heresy, even mainstream Christians have teetered on dualism at times, with various beliefs in witchcraft (originally rejected as a pagan myth by thinkers like Augustine and Boniface). The "aesthetic" of Zoroastrianism might be a little too far from Catholicism for your tastes, but that of Catharism probably isn't.


Again, maybe it could be re-skinned. Middle eastern scholars have been immensely influential on the world's scientific progress. Maybe the Apostles' vision of the Demiurge is that of a benevolent, exacting lawmaker; one who has dictated a series of true laws that must be obeyed. These laws should probably be stern, but fair - but said laws could also be interpreted as scientific law. "The Creator has given us this creation, and we move closer to the Creator by understanding it." Something like that maybe? Been reading some Feser, so here's an idea: God gave man alone (among all Earthly creatures) intellect, and the purpose of intellect is to learn and reason, thus obtaining truth. In the same way that a knife has an edge so that it may cut, and if it does not or cannot use its edge to cut it is wasted and not a good knife, a man has an intellect so that he may obtain truth, and if he does not or cannot use his intellect to obtain truth, his life is wasted and he is not a good man.

E: Also, Mu'tazilites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazila) might provide some valuable ideas on this subject.

Religion-making is my favorite part of world-building, so here's a recommendation: read up on real-world religion and philosophy. Good Lord is it helpful in coming up with ideas, creating interesting twists on pre-existing ones, and developing the finer points of a religion's theology. People spent millennia contemplating this stuff. Many intelligent people spent basically their whole lives just thinking about it. Myths shifted and changed and adjusted to the needs of their communities. Interesting ideas can result even when you're trying to avoid ripping things off, and having research in hand is also really helpful for ripping things off.

[Ashtagon]

The Pantheon is an ancient religion, dating back to a few thousand years BC (Before Civilisation; the rising of the Demiurge marks the start of the common dating system used worldwide). Anthropologists believe it started out as a pantheistic religion, similar to other pantheistic religions worldwide. However, it developed in slightly different ways. Some of the key ideas that emerged in the region were:

* The way to heaven lies in imitating the gods.
* There is a god who symbolises each and every social role.
* Young men typically learned their career as apprentices to their father.
* The father may apprentice the son to a skilled master if the son can demonstrate great natural aptitude; to do otherwise would be to deny his pre-ordained role. This usually requires payment to the master.
* Therefore, you should aim to be the best at your pre-ordained role, in order to be more like the gods.

These beliefs fed off each other, creating a highly stratified society. It is perhaps significant that unlike the European pantheistic religions, The Pantheon did not include a female-identified goddess of wisdom and courage.

* Igni, god of messengers, diplomats, and fire. Igni is the messenger of the gods. As such, his priests preside over the festivals and organised worship for all gods in The Pantheon. They sacrifice offerings to the gods. Fire is the medium used to transport these sacrifices to the heavens where the gods reside, which is why he is also the god of fire. Thee priests tend to be itinerant, travelling from temple to temple, enabling their dual role as diplomats.
* Vedni, god of wisdom and learning, is favoured by academics, librarians, record keepers, and historians. This caste tends to form the "staff" at temples, as well as maintaining government records.
* Kashatni, god of warriors and strength in battle, is favoured by the military caste, from rank and file through to generals and princes.
* The Vashani are a collection of gods, employing agriculture (farmers), crafts, and trade.
* Gamali the farmer
* Nassuvi the barber (also includes surgeons and dentistry)
* Kami the blacksmith (also armour-making)
* Naduri the brewer
* Vaswarmi the carpenter (also woodcutting, wood-carving, and wainwright)
* Bibi the fisher
* Solari the goldsmith (also jeweller)
* Gwaljari the herder (also leather-working)
* Aggwali the merchant
* Mangni the musician
* Kofti the weaver
* Shani is the god of strength, who is worshipped by the labourer caste
* Shuni is the handmaiden of Vedni, and is worshipped by the servant caste.

[EccentricOwl]

Even after a few re-reads, I still like what I see.

Another poster had a good point about the Hierarchy; players often bring their own real-world feelings into the game, and that sort of has the result of turning people off to monotheisitic religions. Even egregiously benevolent religions can get marginalized due to players.

However, it's not -just- about the players; the Hierarchy's goddess (Minerva / The Demiurge) is cool and, in my opinion, very unique. I think to all those classical Greek stories where Athena/Minerva would stand over the hero's soldier and help them through a tough time or grant them magical gear. Sounds like the sort of player character god to me. ;)

Same goes with the 'overthrow' of the old pantheon. Something that big could occur in a lot of different ways. It still has a Christ-allegory martyr and it still has that sort of apocalpytic vibe of "the end times will come and things will be different."

I think that having a sort of heresy - or especially for Christianity, multiple heresies - is important.

The obvious choice is a rejection of the hierarchy's structure a la real-world Protestantism. But that seems almost *too easy*. What about a different interpretation, or worshipping a different god or goddess? "Everyone knows that Rhiannon was the real Demiurge. Did you ever meet the demiurge? Of course they didn't. All of the Old Books claim that it was Minerva, but they were simply mistaken."

Plus, a heresy also gives plenty of leeway for minority religions. What fantasy setting is complet without an evil cult or two?

Your two heresy movements are pretty goo and very to-the-point, however. The idea of a 'celtic Hierarchy" that puts itself over the church's order could be cool. The temples look less Roman and more like the abbeys and monasteries of real-world Western Europe.

Doesn't choosing a different goddess or god entirely for the religion seem like a big deal? I dunno if it's worthy of being its own religion and beliefs or just seen as a heresy / schism in the Hierarchy.



Really, really cool. :)

[Ashtagon]

Regarding the Hierarchy, I see several points of heresy/splinter/heresy...

The early years sees simultaneous "breaks" from the old pantheonistic religions across Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. These can't all be inspired by the same demiurge, can they? While the timeline shows them being defeated by the Groman branches by the 5th century AD, there's no reason why religious scholars can't "discover" (or even "have revealed to them" ancient texts, or that secret cults dedicated to these variant Hierarchies can't continue to the present.

The Oriental Temple is, as I noted, an expy of Zoroastrianism. The Meridional Temple is pure fiction (to my knowledge), and was written specifically with the intention of playing up to Raiders of the Lost Ark tropes. These two fictional names are based on Latin words for compass directions btw.

The Avignon schism is an expy of Orthodix Christianity. The stronger emphasis on monasticism coupled with the more martial nature of the founding concepts of the religion allows for a Shaolin Temple expy to be included somewhere. We can finally have the D&D monk class make sense :smallbiggrin:

The cult of the Saint is based in alt-Italy, and was meant to be an expy of how Catholicism in certain countries places a very strong emphasis on saints. I like to imagine that on festival days, statues of each of the old gods being paraded around the town on plinths carried by a team of bearers. In some towns, this might even involve teams of saint-bearers racing each other. No reason this couldn't be combined with the original heresy and have a cult of the saint on the Orkneys that worships alt-Thor and alt-Odin.

Finally, the Reformation is meant to be an expy of Protestantism (Johannes Ludovicz is an expy of Martin Luther). It would be easy enough to swap this for a rebirth of one of the original heresies and have an alt-Rhiannon or an alt-Freja or an alt-Ishtar or an alt-Ma'at or...

So, that's five places where splits can occur. How this affects game mechanics depends largely on what rules you are using. But there's enough there that even groups nominally following the same demiurge might declare war on each other over obscure matters of faith.