Tripping

[Melcar]

Hello fellow scribes...

I have a question which I believe the collective hive mind of this community can answer.

If I want to build a tripper, what do I do?

I have been looking for a weapon that would give a bonus for tripping like so many weapons giving a bonus to disarm, but without any luck. Further I'm looking for ways of imroving the opposed trip roll. I know about the Improved trip feat, but are there more feats that grant a bonus to tripping?

Thanks

[Slipperychicken]

You're in luck; Tripping is a viable strategy in 3.5e.

You can increase your bonus to the roll by increasing your Strength/Dex score (whichever you're using, obviously) and your Size (every size category increase gives you a +4 IIRC).

The iconic tripper weapons are the Spiked Chain (reach, but also threatens adjacent squares), but also Guisarme+Gauntlets (Guisarme hits foes at reach, and you simply punch anything which gets too close). Also consider the Pike (I think that's what it's called. It's analogous to the huge spears used in classical phalanxes), which is 15ft reach weapon, and that's useful for obvious reasons.

You can probably look up a "tripper handbook", a player-made guide to creating an effective tripper in 3.5e. Or someone else can post a link to it.

[TuggyNE]

If nothing else, the Horizon Tripper is a classically solid build.

[Gwendol]

A race with the powerful build ability, or a human with the Jotunbrud feat (RoF p 166) gets the bonus for being Large while actually still being medium.

Other than that you want to be strong, possibly a barbarian with the wolf totem, since they get the improved trip feat as a bonus at second level (this saves you from having to take combat expertise).

You also want the combat reflexes feat and a DEX of at least 12, to be able to make more than one AoO per round.

[Greenish]

A solid way to increase Trip modifier is to become larger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), which also helps to expand your reach. Increasing Strength will also work, and Barbarian just so happens to have quite a bit of Trip support. Wolf Totem Barbarian variant (Unearthed Arcana) gets Imp. Trip in place of Uncanny Dodge, without needing to bother with Int or Combat Expertise, Wolf Berserker feat (Unapproachable East) gives +4 to Trip and counts as Combat Expertise for the prerequisites for Imp. Trip (the bonuses stack), again without needing Int, and there's probably some other stuff too. Guisarme and Spiked Chains are the usual weapons of choice for a tripper.

A slightly different take on tripping would be something like Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick).


[Edit]: Also, Psionic Warrior should be mentioned. They make for excellent trippers.

[Melcar]

Is there not a feat, that makes the areas you threaten a "difficult" terrain?

[Lostbutseeking]

Is there not a feat, that makes the areas you threaten a "difficult" terrain?

I believe you are thinking of the knight class ability Bulwark of Defense, it only works if they start their turn in a threatened square. Still potent though.

[Person_Man]

Trip stuff:

Remember that lots of things can be immune to Trip, are highly resistant to it, or don't really need to move at all to be effective. So don't build your entire character around this one combo (or any 1 combo).

Basic for any Trip combo is Knock-Down Feat + anything that increases actual or effective size and/or reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). Remember, you get +4 for each size increase. Increased reach makes it more likely that you'll trigger a lot of AoO. And increased size also increases damage.

Ritiik: Exotic weapon. If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. This is the low rent trip option - 1 Feat and then you move on to another combo. Frostburn.

Sand Snare Feat: If you successfully Trip and enemy in an area of sand/loose dirt/ash/etc, they must take a Full Round Action followed by a Move action to stand up. No Save. They basically just lie there, or they waste a full round and a half. Working with someone who has a Bottle of Endless or sand creating spells, this makes it very hard for enemies to stand. Sandstorm pg 52.

Earth Devotion: Lets you create difficult terrain. Uses are fueled by Turn/Rebuke undead, which makes it a good option for Paladin-ish builds who otherwise can't create difficult terrain with spells.

Shield Bash/Shield Charge/Shield Slam: When you charge an enemy and attack with your Shield, you get a free Trip attack and your enemy must Save or be Dazed for 1 round. A good low level tank combo. But unless your DM is generous in how he reads the feat, it can’t be used with Pounce or two handed Power Attack, so it loses it’s usefulness by ECL 11+. Complete Warrior pg 105.

Skills: If you have 10 or more Balance ranks, you can make a Balance check (-10 penalty) in place of a Str or Dex check to resist being tripped. And with a DC 35 Tumble check result, you can stand up from prone as a free action (instead of as a move action, though it still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal). Worth noting because Skills are easy to optimize. Comp Adventurer pg 97.

Explosive Spell Metamagic Feat: If the enemy fails their Save against the spell, they are pushed to the edge of the spells area of effect, knocked prone, and take extra damage. +2 LA. Unapproachable East pg 43.

Undermountain Tactics Feat: When you hit your enemy from higher ground (like when you’re mounted, or climb/fly above the enemy), your enemy must make a Balance check or be knocked Prone or give up his next Move action. When in a tunnel, you can block line of site, so your enemies can’t target your allies standing behind you. Requires that you be a Dwarf or Gnome. Dungeonscape pg 46.

Certain classes are better at Trip then others. Any Tier 1-2 can do it well with spells (either directly through Explosive Spell, and/or with buffs, and/or with Summons). In the Tier 3 range your best options are Psychic Warrior (Expansion), Crusader (Thicket of Blades), or Totemist (tons of attacks). In the Tier 4 or lower range, your best option is Knight (Test of Mettle, Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender).

[Melcar]

What happens if a character charges and I (the tripper) have a spiked chain as a weapon. Am I allowed a AoO when he (the charger) leaves the first square I threaten and enters the closest to me?

Also, will the Exploit Adjustment from dragon 340 give AoO in all the squares I (the tripper) threaten? Or is adjacent only the closest squares to me?

[Greenish]

What happens if a character charges and I (the tripper) have a spiked chain as a weapon. Am I allowed a AoO when he (the charger) leaves the first square I threaten and enters the closest to me?Yes.


Also, will the Exploit Adjustment from dragon 340 give AoO in all the squares I (the tripper) threaten? Or is adjacent only the closest squares to me?"Adjacent" refers to squares that are right next to yours.

[Beleron]

I quite like the Passive Way monk dip as a way to get Improved Trip without needing the int requirements for Combat Expertise. You also pick up IUS, which can lead to things like Snap Kick later. Also evasion.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I quite like the Passive Way monk dip as a way to get Improved Trip without needing the int requirements for Combat Expertise. You also pick up IUS, which can lead to things like Snap Kick later. Also evasion.

I prefer Spirit Lion Totem/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, it get's you +2 BAB, 2d12 HD (nice), decent amount of skills, Rage (which also helps tripping), pounce and improved trip, much better than Monk IMO.

[Slipperychicken]

What happens if a character charges and I (the tripper) have a spiked chain as a weapon. Am I allowed a AoO when he (the charger) leaves the first square I threaten and enters the closest to me?


A commonly forgotten rule is that one can only provoke once from moving through the same guy's threatened squares. So if you have 20ft reach and he runs through it, you still only get one AoO on him.

[Melcar]

I prefer Spirit Lion Totem/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, it get's you +2 BAB, 2d12 HD (nice), decent amount of skills, Rage (which also helps tripping), pounce and improved trip, much better than Monk IMO.

Personally I'm trying to find ways of getting an attack of opportunity when someone takes a 5-fot step, so that I could get a trip attemt. Until now, I have only found the Crusader(ToB) or Knight(PHB2) to realy stop 5-feet steps. I was thinking af getting a dip in Psychic Warrior to get the Stand Still feat, which I quite like. I would like to get Large and in Charge, but I dont want to be large, so rigt now it looks like some class dips... and some fighter feats

[Gavinfoxx]

Personally I'm trying to find ways of getting an attack of opportunity when someone takes a 5-fot step, so that I could get a trip attemt. Until now, I have only found the Crusader(ToB) or Knight(PHB2) to realy stop 5-feet steps. I was thinking af getting a dip in Psychic Warrior to get the Stand Still feat, which I quite like. I would like to get Large and in Charge, but I dont want to be large, so rigt now it looks like some class dips... and some fighter feats

The best way is Crusader or the feats that give you access to the Crusader stance that does this.

[Melcar]

The best way is Crusader or the feats that give you access to the Crusader stance that does this.

Crusader would be a 5 level dip, so thats quite long. Knight, all though I dont like the class, would make it quite hard to get close to the character, especially with a spiked chain.

[Gwendol]

Denying 5' steps is quite potent, and DM's with which I've played using such a character have begun to be more careful with the battlemap and enemy movement I've noticed.

[Beleron]

Personally I'm trying to find ways of getting an attack of opportunity when someone takes a 5-fot step, so that I could get a trip attemt. Until now, I have only found the Crusader(ToB) or Knight(PHB2) to realy stop 5-feet steps. I was thinking af getting a dip in Psychic Warrior to get the Stand Still feat, which I quite like. I would like to get Large and in Charge, but I dont want to be large, so rigt now it looks like some class dips... and some fighter feats

Stand Still is a general feat; it doesn't require psionic ability.

[Melcar]

Stand Still is a general feat; it doesn't require psionic ability.

Ok... it that a 3.5 version I'm not familiar with?

[Gavinfoxx]

Ok... it that a 3.5 version I'm not familiar with?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill

Here's a generic horizon tripper that uses two sources:

-The 3.5 PHB
-That online SRD

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

[Gwendol]

Stand still is general, also you don't need large and in charge when there is hold the line.

[Beleron]

I wonder why knock-down wasn't included in 3.5 - was it considered overpowered?

[Gavinfoxx]

I wonder why knock-down wasn't included in 3.5 - was it considered overpowered?

It is in 3.5e? Its even in the SRD?

[lsfreak]

Crusader would be a 5 level dip, so thats quite long.

Not necessarily, remember non-ToB classes count as half-levels for gaining maneuvers. You could go Anything 6/Crusader 2 or Anything 8/Crusader 1 and pick it up (depending on whether your DM requires the first stance to be 1st level, or takes that as poorly-edited descriptive text).

[Melcar]

Stand still is general, also you don't need large and in charge when there is hold the line.

This will not stop enemies from getting close to you, like Large and in Charge will...


Not necessarily, remember non-ToB classes count as half-levels for gaining maneuvers. You could go Anything 6/Crusader 2 or Anything 8/Crusader 1 and pick it up (depending on whether your DM requires the first stance to be 1st level, or takes that as poorly-edited descriptive text).

This is great news!

[Greenish]

It is in 3.5e? Its even in the SRD?The version in SRD is from Deities and Demigods, a 3.0 book, like everything else in that section.

It hasn't been reprinted since, so it's technically valid for 3.5, but that doesn't mean the same as being in 3.5.

[herrhauptmann]

What happens if a character charges and I (the tripper) have a spiked chain as a weapon. Am I allowed a AoO when he (the charger) leaves the first square I threaten and enters the closest to me?


Buy steadfast boots too (magic item compendium)
With a two handed weapon, you're automatically set against charges. This means you deal double damage when you hit. It happens as soon as they enter your reach. Nor does it take up an AOO attempt.

[Greenish]

Buy steadfast boots too (magic item compendium)
With a two handed weapon, you're automatically set against charges. This means you deal double damage when you hit. It happens as soon as they enter your reach. Nor does it take up an AOO attempt.Also get Hold the Line (they provoke if they charge) for another AoO, and make your weapon Intercepting (FoW) for another extra attack at double damage vs. chargers.

[Gwendol]

This will not stop enemies from getting close to you, like Large and in Charge will...



This is great news!

It certainly does if you do stop them by either tripping (for trippable foes) or just force them to stay in place using Stand Still.

[Melcar]

Buy steadfast boots too (magic item compendium)
With a two handed weapon, you're automatically set against charges. This means you deal double damage when you hit. It happens as soon as they enter your reach. Nor does it take up an AOO attempt.

Even with a spiked chain? And could this be combined with Stand Still?


Also get Hold the Line (they provoke if they charge) for another AoO, and make your weapon Intercepting (FoW) for another extra attack at double damage vs. chargers.

NOt sure what Intercepting does or what (FoW) refers to!

[Greenish]

Even with a spiked chain? And could this be combined with Stand Still?Yes and yes.


NOt sure what Intercepting does or what (FoW) refers to!FoW stands for Forge of War, an Eberron splatbook. Intercepting grants you a free attack with double damage when an enemy tries to charge/bull rush/overrun/grapple you.

[herrhauptmann]

Yes and yes.

FoW stands for Forge of War, an Eberron splatbook. Intercepting grants you a free attack with double damage when an enemy tries to charge/bull rush/overrun/grapple you.I don't have FoW, what's the cost on intercepting? +1?

[Greenish]

I don't have FoW, what's the cost on intercepting? +1?Yeah. Very handy, often competes with Keen for which enhancement to add after Everbright (because I'm paranoid).

Of course, it depends on DM actually using those maneuvers, but at least charge comes up with some regularity. It also works vs. things with Imp. Grab or similar.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah. Very handy, often competes with Keen for which enhancement to add after Everbright (because I'm paranoid).

Of course, it depends on DM actually using those maneuvers, but at least charge comes up with some regularity. It also works vs. things with Imp. Grab or similar.

+1 for everbright/durable/blueshine equipment. I always get soulfire ASAP too.

I wonder if a DM would allow the double damage attacks from the boots and weapon to stack, and how. Giving someone two non-AOO attacks at double damage would probably be unfair. (Especially with that movement based AOO right after it)
Maybe one attack at triple damage?

Before I forget, the boots also give bonuses against bullrush, overrun, and trip.

[Slipperychicken]

FoW stands for Forge of War, an Eberron splatbook. Intercepting grants you a free attack with double damage when an enemy tries to charge/bull rush/overrun/grapple you.

The Knockback and Knock-Down feats just seems mean with this, especially plus Dungeoncrasher. Don't forget readying a weapon against a charge (which is also double damage), plus the normal AoO which may be provoked for charging a reach-fighter. It's almost anime in how ridiculous it is.


DM: "His spear is set against the ground, pointed at you, with a cold stare in his eyes."

Player: "I charge him!"

[DM rolls]

DM: "Uhh... yeah, when you get within 10ft, the Minotaur's spear seems to spring out at you, striking your chest three times... you take 31 damage... plus another 27 damage... and once more for 12. Also the force knocks you back 15 feet, smashing you into that wall for.. 43 damage. You then slide down the wall onto your bum, prone. I'm guessing that ends your turn?"

Player: "Wait... what about my attack?"

DM: "He knocked you on your *** before you got into melee range"

Player: :smalleek:

[Greenish]

+1 for everbright/durable/blueshine equipment. I always get soulfire ASAP too.Also Dwarvencraft, while we're at it.


I wonder if a DM would allow the double damage attacks from the boots and weapon to stack, and how. Giving someone two non-AOO attacks at double damage would probably be unfair.The boots are silly good on their own. It'd probably depend on the campaign.


The Knockback and Knock-Down feats just seems mean with this, especially plus Dungeoncrasher. Don't forget readying a weapon against a charge (which is also double damage), plus the normal AoO which may be provoked for charging a reach-fighter. It's almost anime in how ridiculous it is.Steadfast Boots don't stack with readying a weapon against charge (because they do it for you).

Also, there's lovely symmetry in counter-charge build racking up major damage. :smallcool:

[herrhauptmann]

DM: "His spear is set against the ground, pointed at you, with a cold stare in his eyes."

Player: "I charge him!"

[DM rolls]

DM: "Uhh... yeah, when you get within 10ft, the Minotaur's spear seems to spring out at you, striking your chest three times... you take 31 damage... plus another 27 damage... and once more for 12. Also the force knocks you back 15 feet, smashing you into that wall for.. 43 damage. You then slide down the wall onto your bum, prone. I'm guessing that ends your turn?"

Player: "Wait... what about my attack?"

DM: "He knocked you on your *** before you got into melee range"

Player: :smalleek:

DM: "Ok, your turn is done. Now the ogre takes his turn. He charges you."

After a certain point, wouldn't the ogre be playing shuffleboard with the player? (He might want to keep the player within reach for a standup AOO of course and save the knockback for his off-turn actions)

[Slipperychicken]

After a certain point, wouldn't the ogre be playing shuffleboard with the player? (He might want to keep the player within reach for a standup AOO of course and save the knockback for his off-turn actions)

A character who succeeds on a Bull Rush may push his target back less than the distance permitted, if he chooses to. So he could elect to push the PC back the minimum distance (5 feet) to give AoOs to any allies he has threatening the square. If he didn't have to move to get into attack range, then he could just 5ft step to follow.

I also assumed the big guy would be a Dungeoncrasher fighter, which would make repeatedly bull rushing his opponent into a wall quite damaging, especially if he could get the opponent inside a threatened square but also next to a wall to dungeoncrash with his whole attack routine. Otherwise, it can be nice if someone gets a bit too close and you want to push him back a square or two.

[Melcar]

The Knockback and Knock-Down feats just seems mean with this, especially plus Dungeoncrasher. Don't forget readying a weapon against a charge (which is also double damage), plus the normal AoO which may be provoked for charging a reach-fighter. It's almost anime in how ridiculous it is.


DM: "His spear is set against the ground, pointed at you, with a cold stare in his eyes."

Player: "I charge him!"

[DM rolls]

DM: "Uhh... yeah, when you get within 10ft, the Minotaur's spear seems to spring out at you, striking your chest three times... you take 31 damage... plus another 27 damage... and once more for 12. Also the force knocks you back 15 feet, smashing you into that wall for.. 43 damage. You then slide down the wall onto your bum, prone. I'm guessing that ends your turn?"

Player: "Wait... what about my attack?"

DM: "He knocked you on your *** before you got into melee range"

Player: :smalleek:

Nice vision... I just dont quite understand how or why the charger gets three punches. at 31, 27 and 12 damage though...

[Slipperychicken]

Nice vision... I just dont quite understand how or why the charger gets three punches. at 31, 27 and 12 damage though...

It's the guy who was being charged (the spear-wielding minotaur) who gets to swing that much.

1. One shot from the Interceptor property (which is neither an AoO nor a regular attack). Double damage.
2. One shot from a readied action against a charge attack (most likely coming from Steadfast Boots. Double damage.
3. One shot from the AoO for leaving a threatened square. Normal damage.

Damage figures were a complete guess; I just knew that one of them would do roughly half the damage as the others... although the doubled ones ought to both be even numbers now that I think of it (IIRC any real integer times two is an even number).

[Melcar]

It's the guy who was being charged (the spear-wielding minotaur) who gets to swing that much.

1. One shot from the Interceptor property (which is neither an AoO nor a regular attack). Double damage.
2. One shot from a readied action against a charge attack (most likely coming from Steadfast Boots. Double damage.
3. One shot from the AoO for leaving a threatened square. Normal damage.

DAMN.... :smalleek:

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

[Slipperychicken]

DAMN.... :smalleek:

Thanks for clearing that up for me!

Trippers and AoO builds can be brutal when you charge them.

[Harrow]

I'm playing a low level tripper in a campaign right now, anybody know how he could generate conditions for Sand Snare?

To add something from what my character is doing, he's a Factotum. At level 3 Factotums get an ability that lets them add their INT mod to DEX and STR skills and checks, which include nice things like Initiative and, yes, trip. The initiative bonuses are important too, remember that you can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

They also get Inspiration points on a per-encounter basis which let them add their INT mod to saves, to-hit, damage, and ability checks, again including both initiative (Factotums are really good at going first) and trip checks.

If you feel like going further in the class, they mimic a bit of spellcasting from the Wiz/Sor list with Spell-likes, which at low levels means things like Enlarge Person and Fist of Stone which can be great buffs.

Finally, at level 8 they get the ability to burn Inspiration points by the bucket for extra standard actions, which is just phenomenal. I wouldn't go any further than level 8 for a pure trip build, and I'd be hesitant to go past 3, because you can gain more inspiration points/combat through feats, but they also get 6+INT mod skills per level and all skills as class skills, so they aren't stuck with only tripping.

[Greenish]

Damage figures were a complete guess; I just knew that one of them would do roughly half the damage as the others... although the doubled ones ought to both be even numbers now that I think of it (IIRC any real integer times two is an even number).When you're rolling damage, you multiply the dice, not the result. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage) So, for example, when you crit with a longsword, you'd roll 2d8, instead of rolling 1d8 and multiplying the result.

At least by RAW, I guess many people find it faster just to multiply the result. Anyway, the point was, a double-damage attack can inflict an odd number of damage. :smalltongue:

[Melcar]

A qouple of questions have arissen.

1) When a person in my threat range tries to stand from prone, I get an AoO. As tripping is possible during AoOs can I trip a person standing up, making him fall over again, basically never letting the enemy stand up?

2) Improved Trip allows for a free attack against the prone enemy, basically making the trip attack that trips. Will this occur when I trip during a trip triggered by an AoO?

3) If I hit a charging enemy, and deal over 10 damage, I get a free trip attempt.(Knockdown) 1) Do I have to roll another attack to hit the enemies touch armor class or do I go directly to strength check? 2) In what square will the enemy land? The one before he enters my threatened area or the one he triggers the ready set against charge?


Thanks

[Greenish]

1) When a person in my threat range tries to stand from prone, I get an AoO. As tripping is possible during AoOs can I trip a person standing up, making him fall over again, basically never letting the enemy stand up?No. An AoO technically takes place before the thing that triggered it. You can't trip someone who's already prone. The target would have the AC penalty from being prone against your AoO.


2) Improved Trip allows for a free attack against the prone enemy, basically making the trip attack that trips. Will this occur when I trip during a trip triggered by an AoO?Imp. Trip triggers when you trip, whether with AoO or on normal attack, but see above.


3) If I hit a charging enemy, and deal over 10 damage, I get a free trip attempt.(Knockdown) 1) Do I have to roll another attack to hit the enemies touch armor class or do I go directly to strength check? 2) In what square will the enemy land? The one before he enters my threatened area or the one he triggers the ready set against charge?1) You have to hit the touch AC. 2) The square he's in when you hit him. Readied attack is not an AoO.


[Edit]: I should also add that Knock-Down was originally published in Sword and Fist (3.0 book), and copied from there to Deities and Demigods (3.0 that's in SRD). The version in S&S was errata'ed to clarify that if you tripped someone with Knock-Down, you wouldn't get a free attack from Imp. Trip, but that errata didn't make it's way to D&D despite coming out earlier. All of this leaves the interaction with Knock-Down and Imp. Trip into a limbo.

[Melcar]

1) You have to hit the touch AC.

Can you please tell me where this information can be found, because I'm thinking that if you hit with the initial attack, triggering knockdown, then you have already hit the enemy, thus going straight to the strength check?

Thanks

[Greenish]

Can you please tell me where this information can be found, because I'm thinking that if you hit with the initial attack, triggering knockdown, then you have already hit the enemy, thus going straight to the strength check?Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) says that you can "make a trip attack as a free action". Trip attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) are detailed in Special Attacks, and start with making a touch attack:
Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target.

[Melcar]

Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) says that you can "make a trip attack as a free action". Trip attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) are detailed in Special Attacks, and start with making a touch attack:

Quick and to the point. Thanks!

ANother question:

When an AoO is triggered (Thickets of Blades) and a succesful tip is made, does the enemy fall over in the square he is leaving or the one he is entering?

[Harrow]

Quick and to the point. Thanks!

ANother question:

When an AoO is triggered (Thickets of Blades) and a succesful tip is made, does the enemy fall over in the square he is leaving or the one he is entering?

The square he is leaving.

[Melcar]

The square he is leaving.

Thanks for the quick answers!

[Greenish]

Quick and to the point. Thanks!I had the links handy since after typing the answer I realized I wasn't perfectly sure it's RAW, so I checked.