So how about them magic carpets, eh?

[Feytalist]

So I was thinking a bit about Carpets of Flying (I may or may not have been watching Aladdin this weekend):

The description of its movement and activation isn't quite clear. It takes a command word to be activated, sure, but once activated, how do you get it to move? It's prerequisite is the overland flight spell, but that's not very indicative, usually. Mostly I was wondering: do you use your own movement action to move with it, or is directing it a nonaction/free action/swift action/whatever action? Maybe, if you say "forward", it just keeps flying forward on its own until it's told to stop. Can you move with it and still make a full-round action, or a charge for that matter? Like a normal mount? Also, if casting a spell while riding on a carpet, do you need to make a Concentration check for vigourous motion or similar?

If there's rules or previous discussions regarding this, by all means point me in their direction. But mostly, I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.


So, in short: is riding a Carpet of Flying more like riding a flying mount, more like a fly spell or a separate mode of movement entirely?

[Nettlekid]

I would assume that most DMs treat it as basically giving you a fly speed, except you're riding a thing instead of flying yourself (and so spells like Cloud Wings or Haste don't increase the speed.) You'd use a move action to have the carpet move its speed.

[Segev]

This rug is able to fly through the air as if affected by an overland flight spell of unlimited duration. The size, carrying capacity, and speed of the different carpets of flying are shown on the table below. Beautifully and intricately made, each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions. The quote is from the d20 hyperlinked SRD, and the bolded part is the answer to your question: it is controlled by spoken directions. It presumably moves on its own and follows said directions, likely restricted to the guy who activated it. It thus would act like a mount to which you must give verbal direction to change its behavior.

[Feytalist]

Ah, but now: is speaking a free action in this case? Can a carpet rider still full attack? Or a sorcerer cast a metamagic'd spell, is what I really want to know.

And another question: we all know skirmish does not trigger off a mount's move (bah humbug I say to that), but what about a carpet's move? Does it count as your own move?

[Lightlawbliss]

I would say it is a mount so it acts like a mount. just because magic controls it doesn't make it not a mount.

[Nettlekid]

Ah, but now: is speaking a free action in this case? Can a carpet rider still full attack? Or a sorcerer cast a metamagic'd spell, is what I really want to know.

And another question: we all know skirmish does not trigger off a mount's move (bah humbug I say to that), but what about a carpet's move? Does it count as your own move?

Guiding the carpet via verbal commands should work not unlike issuing a command word, which is just speaking but is not a free action. Basically, the carpet is not sentient, and does not gain its own set of actions. It is less of an individual creature than a horse. You have to use your own actions to move the carpet around. So no, speaking is not a free action, and you cannot full attack from the carpet if you move in the same round. MAYBE you could get your DM to allow mount-based feats and class features (like I know there's one somewhere that lets you full attack if your mount moves less than its speed in a round) to work for your carpet, but it doesn't work on its own.

I...am not sure. I would think not, because technically you're just riding a thing (it's not like Skirmish would activate if you were on a moving carriage or something, even though you are moving). But I would expect that a DM would allow it to work, especially if you are using your own move actions to do so.

[Feytalist]

Well. It must be either/or. Either you use your own move, in which case yes skirmish, but no full attack. Or you use your "mount's" move, in which case no skirmish, but yes full attack. Also, ranks in Ride? Heh.

Also the spellcasting Concentration thing yes/no? I'd think yes. It is vigourous movement after all, and it's not like you are flying yourself. You're perched on a moving thing.

Also: moving with a mount is more than just verbal commands. You're using your knees, spurs, reigns and whatever else to direct it. So... unless you're going to attach a bridle to your carpet, it's not really the same thing at all.

[nedz]

It's a vehicle not a mount.

So: Standard action to change direction etc. but no action is required if the carpet is just moving along as it did the previous round.

[Feytalist]

Possibly, and the moving along as it did previously bit makes logical sense. But again, moving with it is not a manipulation action (not explicitly, anyway), and even that is only a move action.

Unless... where are there rules for vehicles? I know there was some random stuff in A&EG. I'll have to check there again. Carpets of flying weren't listed there by any chance, were they.

[nedz]

If you are standing on the deck of a ship you don't have to take a move action as the ship moves.

[Feytalist]

As a passenger, sure. But what about if you're steering the ship (I actually have no idea, I'm going to be reading up on vehicles in combat tonight)?

I'm guessing Halruaan airships and those Eberron airships have equivalent rules. Maybe I can make use of those.

[nedz]

Carpet of Flying
This rug is able to fly through the air as if affected by an overland flight spell of unlimited duration. ..., each carpet has its own command word to activate it—if the device is within voice range, the command word activates it, whether the speaker is on the rug or not. The carpet is then controlled by spoken directions.

The Rug is effected by the overland flight spell not the user.
The user only needs to use Command words to control it.

So if the rug is flying straight ahead then the user needs to spend no actions to control it.

[Pickford]

It's a vehicle not a mount.

So: Standard action to change direction etc. but no action is required if the carpet is just moving along as it did the previous round.

It's verbal only, that's a free action, not a standard. It's only a standard action to 'activate'.

[nedz]

It's verbal only, that's a free action, not a standard. It's only a standard action to 'activate'.

Quite possibly.

Looking at this again the SRD seems quite unclear on this point. Is it like re-targeting a spell ? In which case it would be a Move action.

[Feytalist]

Looking at this again the SRD seems quite unclear on this point.

Heheh. Hence this thread.


Free action to direct would suit my purposes nicely. Even move action to redirect makes sense.

I'm guessing the developers didn't expect anyone to be using this in combat.

[nedz]

Yeah sorry, must get more sleep :smallamused:

[Ashtagon]

Personally, I'd say it's a free action to control it, but a move action must be spent each round keeping balance if you are standing (or maybe something based on the Ride rules for attacking at the same time as your mount, but with Balance being the key skill). You only automatically get full round actions if you are sitting or lying on it.

[Feytalist]

Sounds good to me.


So, putting it all together:


Command word to activate.
Once active, free action once per round to redirect, else it continues in the direction of the last order.
Move action to keep balance once per round, unless a Balance check is made against some arbitrary DC (say...10), which is a free action, or unless kneeling, sitting or prone.
Full attacks possible in conjunction with a passed Balance check (or kneeling etc.), but no skirmish (it's not actually your movement).
Concentration check against vigourous motion to cast a spell.


How's that sound? What am I missing...

Oh, and I'm ignoring the possibility of charges, dives and such for the moment, because it's making my brain go ow.

[Pickford]

Quite possibly.

Looking at this again the SRD seems quite unclear on this point. Is it like re-targeting a spell ? In which case it would be a Move action.

No. It's a voice action, or a free action. If it was a spell it would be a spell, not a free action.

[Feytalist]

Cool. I already sorta incorporated it in the list above of, er, houserules I'm putting together for flying carpets and related things. For anyone who's interested.

So, anyone with comments? Thoughts? Additions? Anyone who wants to tackle charges and/or aerial combat?

[Ashtagon]

Cool. I already sorta incorporated it in the list above of, er, houserules I'm putting together for flying carpets and related things. For anyone who's interested.

So, anyone with comments? Thoughts? Additions? Anyone who wants to tackle charges and/or aerial combat?

I would say that a melee full attack should normally be impossible if you are sitting or kneeling. That kind of attack rate normally implies a certain high level of manoeuvrability within a space that doesn't match with what carpets alone are normally depicted as doing. In essence, you need to be standing and moving around on your carpet as it if flying (or hovering) to do a full attack at all.

The only time a full attack should be possible is if you are using ranged weapons, or if you are standing and make your Balance check.

The carpets still make nice platforms for caster types, and they retain their full use as utility/long-distance transport.

[Psyren]

I would say it's a free action to control it - it's already been activated so making it move is just a matter of speaking, rather than a "command word" in the rules sense.

[Gwendol]

Can't the carpet do the maneuvering necessary to unleash a full attack? Seems an unnecessary restriction to me.

[Ashtagon]

Can't the carpet do the maneuvering necessary to unleash a full attack? Seems an unnecessary restriction to me.

I'd say the carpet by itself doesn't have the internal intelligence to "jink" and dodge like that. And if it did, it certainly doesn't have the telepathic link necessary to tell the rider which way it is dodging around, which would surely cause the rider to fall (or add severe penalties on his Balance check). Giving repeated commands to the carpet to jink for an entire round can't really be justified as a free action, since it is literally dozens of commands in raid succession, not one command.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'd say the carpet by itself doesn't have the internal intelligence to "jink" and dodge like that. And if it did, it certainly doesn't have the telepathic link necessary to tell the rider which way it is dodging around, which would surely cause the rider to fall (or add severe penalties on his Balance check). Giving repeated commands to the carpet to jink for an entire round can't really be justified as a free action, since it is literally dozens of commands in raid succession, not one command.

are you talking irl? cause irl there are actual combat methods used to maximize effect in a limited space. also irl, people can land well over 1 attack a second.

[Ashtagon]

are you talking irl? cause irl there are actual combat methods used to maximize effect in a limited space. also irl, people can land well over 1 attack a second.

In a limited space on a platform that is moving in a way that is not controlled directly by you and that falling to stay on will result in a potentially-fatal fall?

[Gwendol]

The smallest carpet is 5x5', which seems enough for a medium creature to move about while full attacking. I don't see where these restrictions would come from as they seem quite arbitrary.
If the carpet is moving at full speed, then this will be similar to mounted combat, and normally full attacks (melee) are not possible under those circumstances.

[Feytalist]

We're still talking about melee full attacking while kneeling, right? It does make some sense that a kneeling character would be restricted in movement. And transferring that movement to an indirect source (the carpet) would be difficult. Especially in melee. (Imagine a stream of left, left, strafe, back etc, like Yossarian from Catch 22; only, in melee range)

Melee full attacking while standing upright should be allowed without penalty. Especially since, as Gwendol mentioned, a 5x5 carpet is the actual space a Medium character occupies while attacking anyway. But standing upright would entail a Balance check or similar. (Unless the carpet isn't moving at all? Just hovering? Hmm.)


And now I'm also wondering how detailed the commands can be. Something like "move next to that creature over there and then stop" (or alternately "move 30 feet forward and 5 feet down and then stop") would probably be fine. But something more complicated? Like weaving through a battle so as to not provoke attacks of opportunity? Or hit-and-run (moving into range, attacking, then moving back)? Could probably be allowed, I'd think.

[Segev]

Honestly? I think the proposed rulings regarding needing a Balance check are so far into house rules "because ti seems like it should" territory taht the rest of the arguments are mostly moot. It's DM call and what he thinks sounds right at that point.

The Carpet itself specifies no balance checks required to maintain footing while riding it. For all we know, given lack of rules to the contrary, it's as stable as standing on solid ground. Solid higher ground, given that it's flying, no less!

[Feytalist]

Well, yeah. I did say that the little list higher up in the thread was a bunch of houserules, given that absolute lack of clarity in the actual rules.

So, if you want, think of it at this point as a DM (me) asking for possible houserules for making combat involving carpets of flying more interesting.

[Segev]

Ah.

Personally, I'd just assume it works, but I could be being too permissive. (I find the darned things overpriced, among other things, so I would tend to be permissive to make up for it at least a little.)

"To make it more interesting," then...well. Part of the Reach of a creature based on size (note how tall ones get more than quadrupeds) is due to their height letting them lean a bit more. Treat kneeling characters as one size category smaller for purposes of reach, and otherwise use your balance-for-standing rules as normal. I wouldn't restrict ability to attack more than that, though, because the carpet IS (at least) the size of the normal square a Medium person occupies in combat, anyway.

[Vortenger]

The idea and concept of flying carpets comes famous cartoon show Arabian nights. It seems magic but i doubt if such carpets really existed then.

I believe the Thousand and One Tales of Scheherizade are older than a cartoon show...

[nedz]

Well it seems clear to me that this is a situation which requires a houserule. So, why isn't this in the Dysfunctional Rules thread already ?

[Pickford]

In a limited space on a platform that is moving in a way that is not controlled directly by you and that falling to stay on will result in a potentially-fatal fall?

Then the enemy should attack the carpet and not 'you'. The game simply 'assumes' that you are doing your best to avoid attacks in all situations. (That's from the PHB)

[Lightlawbliss]

I believe the Thousand and One Tales of Scheherizade are older than a cartoon show...

wasn't that flying tapestries?

not to mention most of what people call flying "carpets" are actually rugs or neither.(small difference, I know, but nitpick)

[Ashtagon]

wasn't that flying tapestries?

The etymology of the word tapestry ultimately comes from the Arabic word for a carpet (twapet); the two use almost identical construction methods after all. So yeah, they are flying tapestries.

[Feytalist]

Treat kneeling characters as one size category smaller for purposes of reach, and otherwise use your balance-for-standing rules as normal. I wouldn't restrict ability to attack more than that, though, because the carpet IS (at least) the size of the normal square a Medium person occupies in combat, anyway.

Hmm. Yeah, that sounds good.

Well. We don't want to make it too complicated. And as you said, the carpets (tapestries? Heh) are overpriced already, and I'd like to make them worthwhile. (And fun, while we're at it.)



Well it seems clear to me that this is a situation which requires a houserule. So, why isn't this in the Dysfunctional Rules thread already ?

Heh. More like No Rules At All thread. But we can mention it there, see what they have to say.