What CAN and CAN'T a wizards Raven Familiar do?

[Harlot]

What the topic says - (started off in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15900165#post15900165))

There seem to be no official rule as to which and how complicated tasks you can make your Raven Familiar (succesfully) do? One difficulty being that the raven gets smarter as the wizard levels up

So how do you rule as DM's? What can and can't that raven do and how does it differ from an ordinary smart domesticated dog?

What level of IRL intelligence do you aim for? Bird, dog, monkey, even a small child?

Thanks for helping ¨
/Harlot

[Chronos]

A familiar is definitely significantly smarter than even the smartest of natural animals. Animal intelligence tops out at 2, while familiars start at 6. A familiar is about as smart as a human with the same intelligence. Don't expect the familiar to be coming up with any clever ideas or plans (that's the wizard's job, anyway), but it can certainly count, distinguish between different types of creatures, and follow directions.

[Deophaun]

At Int 6, the Raven familiar will be able to mentally perform any basic task you give it that it can physically perform. You want it to scout out enemy positions? Perfectly fine. It might not get the details of what's going on and make a lot of wrong assumptions, but that's par for an Int 6 creature.

Once you get it to Int 10, it will have no problem formulating plans and strategies just like a regular human would. It can be run as you would run any regular NPC.

[Lightlawbliss]

familiars start as slightly less intelligent then your average half orc. If you have enough ranks in UMD and UPD, your famailiar can use anything.

[Psyren]

Just check Blackwing's appearances in the comic strip, that's pretty much how I'd expect a raven familiar to be run. More intelligent than a typical child definitely, a bit on the chatty side, perhaps flighty or easily distracted, but capable when it counts and at the very least earnestly helpful.

[Fax Celestis]

It's smart enough to understand and communicate in at least one language. Probably do basic arithmetic. Probably not do anything as complicated as troop identification, tactical decisions, or anything, but it will understand when you talk to it in that particular 'don't ask questions get this done now or we all die' tone of voice.

[cerin616]

Raven familiars play chess against barbarians.

[Malimar]

Raven familiars play chess against barbarians.

And the ravens let the barbarians win, because ravens don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Int 6 is within PC range. A 6 Int human might be considered mentally handicapped, but they'd be high functioning living with family or a group home with minimal supervision and could possibly even hold down a job.

Now familiars aren't people, so normally I try to keep in mind the attitudes the animals nature will bring. Ravens though are shockingly intelligent animals that push the boundaries of animal intellect. Their capable of tool use, solving logic puzzles, recognition of individual humans and their patterns and behaviors and mimicry. So that means a 6 int raven can do a lot and their int only goes up.

[Deophaun]

And the ravens let the barbarians win, because ravens don't pull people's arms out of their sockets when they lose.
Depends. Does the familiar's wizard know shapechange?

[Beleron]

Raven familiars play chess against barbarians.

Wasn't Bobby Fischer a barbarian?

[navar100]

Quote "Nevermore".

:smallbiggrin:

[Raven777]

I have a Faerie Dragon familiar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=555715) who's smarter than my Sorcerer...

[animewatcha]

You can see if you can have your raven familiar drop dung 'bombshells' onto the enemy eyes. Kinda like how in reallife, birds do to cars.

Actually, is it possible to rig the raven familiar to be poison-immune and be able to drop contact-poison 'bombshells'?

[Big Fau]

Let's extrapolate then.

Int — creatures only follow commands if directly controlled by some effect, and even then they only follow "simple" ones (it's never clearly explained). Golems and Zombies obey their creator's orders without misinterpretation. A normal animal has Int 1 or Int 2. It can understand singular commands only after 2 weeks of training per command, and only if someone makes a skill check. The Dread Warrior undead has Int 4 and can follow any command of 14 words or less without risking a misinterpretation, and every additional word is only a cumulative 5% chance of failure. No checks are required.

The base familiar has Int 6, which is assumed by many to be equal to Forest Gump-level intellect. It isn't entirely unfair to assume that the familiar can follow orders of 28 words without failure, and every two additional words add a cumulative 5% chance of failure. Once the familiar hits 8 Int it is as smart as Orc Commoners, which are not only fully sentient but capable of creating a civilization (albeit a barbaric one in most cases). At this point there is literally nothing holding them back other than personal vocabulary (it may not fully comprehend some words if they are too advanced, which the master may be prone to using if he is a Wizard).

[Harlot]

Thanks for your feedback - you seem to all agree that the raven familiar is pretty much as any NPC - maybe orc-half/orc bright.

Or brighter, as mentioned by Raven777

How about limitations? Do you have any examples of situations where you as DM's would have to tell the PC (or roll?) that the task given was too complicated for the raven?

[Lightlawbliss]

limitations: carrying capacity, tied to caster, no class levels.

[avr]

They're smart enough to follow plans. Probably not smart enough to reliably create plans though.

The other limitation is of course lack of hands.

[Tokuhara]

Plus this:

Familiars derive much of their abilities through yours. So if you have UMD, it has UMD. If it has hands (Talons), it can hold a wand. If it can talk, you are now casting x2 spells

[Harlot]

So if you have UMD, it has UMD. If it has hands (Talons), it can hold a wand. If it can talk, you are now casting x2 spells

For real? This is RAW?
As cool as that seems, as DM I simply would not allow it.
(because I am that kind of uncool and rigid DM, that's why.)

[Psyren]

For real? This is RAW?

It is, but you do have final say.

"Skills

For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use."

Letting it UMD wands isn't too bad though; that limits the familiar to level 4 spells, it can't take 10, and their Cha is pretty low. So even with max ranks (a heavy investment on the master's part, usually) there is a decent chance of failure.

[Segev]

For real? This is RAW?
As cool as that seems, as DM I simply would not allow it.
(because I am that kind of uncool and rigid DM, that's why.)

Just to make sure there's no misunderstanding, when he says "you're casting 2x spells," he doesn't mean you're actually casting 2x spells from your spell alotment with your class level etc. He means the familiar is UMDing the wand while you cast a spell, getting a wand-spell and a normal spell off in the same round.

[Harlot]

Yup, I got that. And It does make sense as the Raven is so annoyingly clever. It's just that wandwielding birds are to much of a stretch for me - even in this imaginary world.

Well, to sum it up, a raven can do pretty much freaking everything.

I just can't decide whether that is cool or annoying. As DM I find it annoying, As player I see LOADS of fun in the future.

Thank you all for helping me out.

[Chronos]

Do note that neither wizards nor sorcerers have UMD as a class skill, nor do most of their prestige classes, so it would take a fair bit of investment to get a familiar reliably able to use a wand.

[Spuddles]

It's smart enough to understand and communicate in at least one language. Probably do basic arithmetic. Probably not do anything as complicated as troop identification, tactical decisions, or anything, but it will understand when you talk to it in that particular 'don't ask questions get this done now or we all die' tone of voice.

Wizard Familiars are probably going to be the second best party members at identifying stuff, especially once the wizard gains a few levels.

[Fax Celestis]

Wizard Familiars are probably going to be the second best party members at identifying stuff, especially once the wizard gains a few levels.

I meant initially. Once the wizard hits 12+, the bird becomes smarter than most people and can be expected to do all this stuff reasonably.

[Lightlawbliss]

Before you call UMD on the familier OP, remember that share spell plus some spells that give spells for another spell slot allow the familiar to cast as well.

[Harlot]

Sigh - this just get's even better.

Know what: The wizard in my game haven't figured all of this casting stuff out by himself - YET - and I am so not gonna tell him :)

[Zanos]

Do note that neither wizards nor sorcerers have UMD as a class skill, nor do most of their prestige classes, so it would take a fair bit of investment to get a familiar reliably able to use a wand.
Loremaster can be gotten into by using a feat with a location from CS, and can provide a feat as a secret. I'd just take one level and dump points into UMD.

[Spuddles]

I meant initially. Once the wizard hits 12+, the bird becomes smarter than most people and can be expected to do all this stuff reasonably.

I mean more along the lines of shared skill points. Even with an int penalty, your raven will probably know more things than the fighter.


Sigh - this just get's even better.

Know what: The wizard in my game haven't figured all of this casting stuff out by himself - YET - and I am so not gonna tell him :)

Do realize that using a familiar has huge risks. It is an incredibly squishy class feature, and it dying means you lose that class feature for basically forever. It's common to trade the familiar out for this reason- the benefits dont quite add up to the risk. An annoying familiar is a single scorching ray or rapid shot away from being a level drain.

Familiars can also be re-acquired after being traded out with Obtain Familiar, and use more advantageous mechanics for determining their abilities.

[Psyren]

Do realize that using a familiar has huge risks. It is an incredibly squishy class feature, and it dying means you lose that class feature for basically forever.

Actually, familiars can be raised from the dead (and do not suffer level/HD loss even if TR is not used.)

[Spuddles]

Actually, familiars can be raised from the dead (and do not suffer level/HD loss even if TR is not used.)

That's a great point. But the xp and gold loss from losing a familiar is almost the same as losing a level. At least you wont have to wait a year and a day!