Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon

[Nettlekid]

The ACF here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) for Soulbound Weapon intrigues me. By losing your 2nd level bonus feat (but gaining Weapon Focus, so basically you just have to lock your 2nd level bonus feat as Weapon Focus) you gain special capability with the Call Weaponry power. You get free enhancement bonuses as you level up, which basically gives you the free 4 PP/enhancement bonus augment. But it's the new augment power, the ability to spend 5 PP per +1 equivalent weapon special ability. Now, this ACF says that the weapon called is the same one each time, fair enough, but since you can choose to augment or not, it stands to reason that the weapon special abilities are applied fresh each time you summon the weapon. So, can you use this to take advantage of abilities like the Elemental Power abilities that have a 1/day limitation, except you just resummon the weapon to refresh it? Or resummon with a different Elemental Power? If so, I think this ACF might be pretty good.

Also, can you use this to break the pre-Epic weapon limit? If you could get a ML or mitigate PP costs such that you were able to spend 36 PP on this single power, could you get a +7 weapon ability like Dread onto your trusty weapon?

[Galvin]

I think that the bonuses that you get from just your Psychic Warrior levels are set in stone. However, any additional bonuses that you stack on it with additional PP are able to be changed every time you summon the weapon.

So this means that you could dismiss and re summon the weapon with different properties, but the ones that you gain from the class feature itself would remain the same, whilst the one's that you gain from extra PP are modify-able.

[Nettlekid]

I think that the bonuses that you get from just your Psychic Warrior levels are set in stone. However, any additional bonuses that you stack on it with additional PP are able to be changed every time you summon the weapon.

So this means that you could dismiss and re summon the weapon with different properties, but the ones that you gain from the class feature itself would remain the same, whilst the one's that you gain from extra PP are modify-able.

I agree with you that the actual numeric +X Enhancement bonus is indeed set in stone. But the new augmentation allows you to apply special abilities, different from the numeric bonus, when you augment it. So if you're a 12th level Psychic Warrior you'll always manifest a +3 Weapon with a single power point, but if you spent an extra four points then you could manifest it as keen, or flaming, or both if you spent 8 points. That's what I'm more interested in.

[Rubik]

I agree with you that the actual numeric +X Enhancement bonus is indeed set in stone. But the new augmentation allows you to apply special abilities, different from the numeric bonus, when you augment it. So if you're a 12th level Psychic Warrior you'll always manifest a +3 Weapon with a single power point, but if you spent an extra four points then you could manifest it as keen, or flaming, or both if you spent 8 points. That's what I'm more interested in.This is true. It's also good because, yes, you could manifest an epic weapon if your ML is high enough, even pre-epic.

It's fun to use on unarmed strikes, as well. *Hint-hint*

[Nettlekid]

This is true. It's also good because, yes, you could manifest an epic weapon if your ML is high enough, even pre-epic.

It's fun to use on unarmed strikes, as well. *Hint-hint*

So you could just keep summoning Elder Elemental Power weapons, summon the Elder Elemental out of the weapon, get rid of the weapon, summon the same weapon but now with like, Lucky for a reroll (resummon if you ever use up the Lucky ability) and Bane for whatever enemy you're facing? That's really cool.

I'm not sure...you can apply it to your Unarmed Strike. Namely because I don't think you can manifest Call Weaponry to summon your own Unarmed Strike into your hand. It's a bit difficult to summon your hand into itself, especially if only the Unarmed Strike disappears from its point in space and time, and you end up holding your fist in your other hand and are rapidly bleeding out with your newly de-fisted other hand.

[Rubik]

So you could just keep summoning Elder Elemental Power weapons, summon the Elder Elemental out of the weapon, get rid of the weapon, summon the same weapon but now with like, Lucky for a reroll (resummon if you ever use up the Lucky ability) and Bane for whatever enemy you're facing? That's really cool.

I'm not sure...you can apply it to your Unarmed Strike. Namely because I don't think you can manifest Call Weaponry to summon your own Unarmed Strike into your hand. It's a bit difficult to summon your hand into itself, especially if only the Unarmed Strike disappears from its point in space and time, and you end up holding your fist in your other hand and are rapidly bleeding out with your newly de-fisted other hand.I don't know about you, but I'm fully capable of holding one part of my body or other with one hand, while having that part remaining attached to the rest of me.

Do that, then summon your whole self, giving yourself the appropriate bonuses. Monk bodies are considered singular weapons, after all.

[Galvin]

If one had their unarmed strike as a soulbound weapon then when they summoned it their fists would gain the enchants of the weapon. If it was not summoned at the time, the fists would be non magic.

[Nettlekid]

I don't know about you, but I'm fully capable of holding one part of my body or other with one hand.

Do that, then summon yourself, giving yourself the appropriate bonuses. Monk bodies are considered singular weapons, after all.

"You call a weapon 'from thin air' into your waiting hand (actually, it is a real weapon hailing from another location in space and time)." So your hand is open and waiting for a weapon that will be transported from somewhere else. If you summon yourself to yourself, you won't summon yourself into your own hand (because your hand will be summoned with you, so there is no waiting hand to be summoned into.) Even if you could, you would be summoning yourself from the same space and time, exactly when and where you are, not another location in space and time. In order to summon your own Unarmed Strike from another space and time, you'd have to either summon your whole body (as a singular weapon) as it coexists on the Material Plane elsewhere (I suppose possible through the use of Astral Projection?) or you'd have to summon your own body from your past or future, and I promise, you cannot time travel with a Level 1 Psychic Warrior power.

[Galvin]

"You call a weapon 'from thin air' into your waiting hand (actually, it is a real weapon hailing from another location in space and time)." So your hand is open and waiting for a weapon that will be transported from somewhere else. If you summon yourself to yourself, you won't summon yourself into your own hand (because your hand will be summoned with you, so there is no waiting hand to be summoned into.) Even if you could, you would be summoning yourself from the same space and time, exactly when and where you are, not another location in space and time. In order to summon your own Unarmed Strike from another space and time, you'd have to either summon your whole body (as a singular weapon) as it coexists on the Material Plane elsewhere (I suppose possible through the use of Astral Projection?) or you'd have to summon your own body from your past or future, and I promise, you cannot time travel with a Level 1 Psychic Warrior power.

By RAW you can.

By RAI you cannot.

[Segev]

I don't think you pick the weapon to which you're soulbound. That is, you don't pick "my body." You pick the type, sure. But I don't think Unarmed Strike is a valid choice for Call Weaponry, so still doesn't work.

[Nettlekid]

By RAW you can.

By RAI you cannot.

No, by RAW you cannot, as I've just demonstrated. The "from another point in space and time" bit is RAW proof, as you are not summoning yourself from another point in space or time, but the "into your waiting hand" is also a good RAW argument as to how you cannot. Even if you want to argue that you can summon your own fists (hint, you can't), you definitely cannot summon your fist (or as Rubix pointed out, your whole body since any part of the body can be used as an Unarmed Strike) into your hand, because your hand disappears as your body disappears as it is summoned into your hand.

[Galvin]

I don't think you pick the weapon to which you're soulbound. That is, you don't pick "my body." You pick the type, sure. But I don't think Unarmed Strike is a valid choice for Call Weaponry, so still doesn't work.

Indeed. I wouldn't let my players pick it.

Your right! You can't summon your unarmed strike with call weaponry.

By RAW and RAI you cannot!

[Beleron]

This looks interesting with the Mindfeeder and Aptitude Weapon enhancements.

[Nettlekid]

This looks interesting with the Mindfeeder and Aptitude Weapon enhancements.

Oh wow, Mindfeeder is perfect, if being able to resummon the weapon resets any 1/day limitations on weapon special abilities. For the low cost of 16 PP, you can summon a +X Mindfeeder Weapon, Coup de Grace some squirrel or something, and regain a ton of PP! That's a good PP recharge method for downtime.

[Segev]

Are we sure it resets 1/day uses? There's still the abuse of repeated summonings with different 1/day powers, but when you summon it a second time with the same 1/day power in the same day, you've still used that power from that weapon once that day, so it's still exhausted.

[Psyren]

I'm with Segev, x/day abilities shouldn't reset because the day itself hasn't reset.

Now, you could say "Oh, but I'm summoning it from the future, and it's been refreshed." To which I would reply "you could just as easily be summoning it from the past, where it's already been expended, and have to manifest a second time." So enforcing the x/day rather than x/day/manifestation keeps things nice and simple.

[Nettlekid]

I'm with Segev, x/day abilities shouldn't reset because the day itself hasn't reset.

Now, you could say "Oh, but I'm summoning it from the future, and it's been refreshed." To which I would reply "you could just as easily be summoning it from the past, where it's already been expended, and have to manifest a second time." So enforcing the x/day rather than x/day/manifestation keeps things nice and simple.

What I was thinking is that it's more along the lines of summoning the same weapon with the same x/day ability, but it's a different ability. Sorry, it's hard to describe what I mean. Let's take Elder Elemental Power. You pay 21 PP to summon a sword with the Elder Elemental Power ability on it, and use it to summon an Elder Elemental. Then you get rid of the sword, by dispelling or whatever. Then you summon it again for 1 PP, and it's just a regular +X sword. It's the same sword, but without the special ability. Dispel it again. Now pay another 21 PP to summon the sword, with the same Elder Elemental Power you had before. I don't see how the sword remembers that it had that ability before, because it's not an intrinsic part of the +X Sword, and is only applied to the sword as a result of your Call Weaponry. So when it arrives to you, I think that it's a newly applied Elder Elemental Power on the sword now, which still has its single use per day, because you granted it freshly.

That's my reasoning at least. I'm not sure if it's 100% solid.

EDIT: I guess it's like, imagine if somehow there was an Artificer who could craft on weapon special abilities really quickly, without having to wait hours for the day to go by. You have a sword with an Elder Elemental Power. If you use the power, then its one use for the day is used up. What would happen if you took it to the Artificer, and he broke down the Elder Elemental Power ability so now the sword doesn't have it, and then put the Elder Elemental Power back onto the sword? Would it not reset the uses per day, as this is a brand-new Elder Elemental Power on the sword that hasn't been used?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Before people complain about imbalance keep in mind that you essentially summon an elder elemental as the equivalent of a 9th level+ power.
That's hardly overpowered. The same applies to any other x/day power. You're not getting something for free, you're investing pp.
It's basically the Psychic Warrior equivalent of Shadow Conjuration, only a lot more limited.

[Psyren]

What I was thinking is that it's more along the lines of summoning the same weapon with the same x/day ability, but it's a different ability.

I know exactly what you're getting at. And by RAW it probably works. I'm just saying I wouldn't allow it.


Before people complain about imbalance keep in mind that you essentially summon an elder elemental as the equivalent of a 9th level+ power.
That's hardly overpowered. The same applies to any other x/day power. You're not getting something for free, you're investing pp.

Let's try a different example - Mindfeeder. This ability is normally 1/day. Before cost reducers, it would take 16 PP to put this on your soulbound weapon.

Set up some (20?) practice dummies and wail on them until you get a crit. All you have to do is do more than 16 damage on that crit and you can go infinite - spend 16 to reshape your mindfeeder weapon anew and spend the rest on whatever you like (Bestow Power, recharge a cognizance crystal/psicrown, make gobs of Quintessence etc.) Then set up practice dummies if you need more and repeat.

As a second example, Suppression costs 11 PP. Put it on a bow. Now, this is more expensive than Dispel Psionics, but it works 3 times per creation, so you're effectively getting the third dispel for free. You also add your own ML to the dispel check, not that of the weapon. Each arrow/bolt/stone you fire thus becomes a targeted dispel in your hands. Also, you actually get +5 to your dispel check with each arrow, and your ML is capped at 15 as opposed to 10, letting you get up to +20 to the dispel check with a higher floor (equivalent to GDM). So now, your psywar is actually better at dispelling than a Kineticist.

I haven't gone through MiC yet but there could be some nice daily abilities to repeat there too.

[Segev]

I'm not commenting one way or the other on balance.

Let me explain why I disagree with Nettlekid's interpretation, though:

The Soulbond Weapon is always the same weapon despite having different tags depending on how you summon it. Thus, if you summon it with the 1/day power to call an Elder Elemental, and use that power, it has used the power to call an Elder Elemental once that day.

Banish it, call it back with 1 pp and no power to call an Elder Elemental, and it still is a sword that has summoned an elder elemental once that day. It just no longer has the power to do so even that often. Fortunately, it did have that power when it called that elemental!

Banish it again, call it back with the 1/day power to call an Elder Elemental. It still is a sword that has called an elder elemental once today. Checking against the power it now has, which lets it call an Elder Elemental up to once that day, it has called the maximum number of Elder Elementals it is allowed for the day. It can't call another.

If, instead, you'd called it with a DIFFERENT 1/day power, you could certainly use that.


It's the same reason Night Sticks can't be churned through for large numbers of Turn attempts; each Night Stick raises your allowed number per day by 4, but once you're holding as many as you can hold (usually 2; one in each hand), if you put one down, you're down to 4 fewer than you were when you held it. If you've already used all that you were allowed while holding all the Night Sticks you're allowed, you've now used MORE turns than you are capable of. Pick up a Night STick, even a "fresh" one, and it raises your potential by 4 again...but you've still used that many.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So ban infinite pp loops using Mindfeeder if your players aren't responsible enough to not do that on their own. That does not mean that spending 21pp to summon an elemental or 6-16 pp for a reroll/dispel/whatever is overpowered.
Yes, there are lots of nice weapon abilities. There are also lots of nice spells and powers.
A ruling like that reeks of "melee can't have nice things" imo.

[Psyren]

A ruling like that reeks of "melee can't have nice things" imo.

You mean because I want x/day abilities to actually be x/day, I'm being unfair? :smallconfused:

Also, Psywars are casters, if you really want to get technical about it. You may as well call Bards "melee" otherwise.

[Segev]

Again, the best cheese you can get out of Soulbound Weapon's RAW is re-manifesting for NEW X/day powers. Can't re-use any, because the count of how many you've used that day doesn't go down, so when checked against the X, they still measure as "quota exhausted or exceeded."


It's like having a credit card. If, during a 1-day special offer, your credit card company lets you borrow $10,000, when normally your limit is $5,000, you can borrow that $10,000 that day! The next day, you're $5,000 over your credit limit, so you can't use that credit card. A week later, your credit card company re-runs that special! Your credit limit is again $10,000! That doesn't let you borrow $10,000 (or even $5,000) more. You still owe $10,000, and thus your credit limit, even bumped back up to $10,000, is still exhausted.


All you're doing by "refreshing" your X/day abilities on your summoned sword is putting yourself back up to "exhausted credit limit" rather than being in "exceeded credit limit." (There are no negative consequences for "exceeded," so it's not a problem to leave it at "exceeded" rather than striving to get it to "exhausted.")

[Nightraiderx]

Unarmed strikes as part of weapon focus? The only way I can see that working is if you are a warforged and make the weapon focus your battle fist. And then you can summon large metal fists from the reaches of space to clamp onto your shiny metal arms...

[Segev]

You can take Weapon Focus for natural weapons, which Unarmed Strikes are.

Still can't call an Unarmed Strike with Call Weapon.

[Nettlekid]

Again, the best cheese you can get out of Soulbound Weapon's RAW is re-manifesting for NEW X/day powers. Can't re-use any, because the count of how many you've used that day doesn't go down, so when checked against the X, they still measure as "quota exhausted or exceeded."


It's like having a credit card. If, during a 1-day special offer, your credit card company lets you borrow $10,000, when normally your limit is $5,000, you can borrow that $10,000 that day! The next day, you're $5,000 over your credit limit, so you can't use that credit card. A week later, your credit card company re-runs that special! Your credit limit is again $10,000! That doesn't let you borrow $10,000 (or even $5,000) more. You still owe $10,000, and thus your credit limit, even bumped back up to $10,000, is still exhausted.


All you're doing by "refreshing" your X/day abilities on your summoned sword is putting yourself back up to "exhausted credit limit" rather than being in "exceeded credit limit." (There are no negative consequences for "exceeded," so it's not a problem to leave it at "exceeded" rather than striving to get it to "exhausted.")

I do see what you mean, and I think it's very reasonable to rule it that way, but I guess my argument is that it's not the same credit card. Or perhaps a better analogy is that it's not the same account, yet linked to the same physical card. Debit and Credit card in one? I don't really know how credit accounts work, to be honest. But anyway, this is what I mean. You have every capacity to own two Air Elder Elemental Power Swords, use the one/day use of one, and then at a later time use the one/day use of the other. Even though it's the same ability, because it's two separate applications of that ability, they're "different" abilities, even though it's the same Air Elder Elemental Power ability. My argument is that when you use up the ability once on your sword, then summon it again, it's not the same expended Air Elder Elemental Power ability applied to the sword as it was before. It is an entirely different Air Elder Elemental Power. That's what seems most intuitive to me, because otherwise it means that within the psychic confines of your mind there's a running tab of all weapon special abilities which have uses per day and the chart of those uses per day, which resurface whenever you apply them to the sword, and it seems to me that such a scenario is less likely than just slapping on the ability when it comes up.

Here's a more closely-related comparison that we can use. The infusion "Weapon Augmentation" allows you to apply a weapon special ability to your weapon. If you used Weapon Augmentation to apply the Air Elder Elemental Power ability to your weapon, then you can use that. Then the infusion's magic runs out, and the weapon goes back to being a regular weapon. Would you say that if I used the same infusion to make it an Air Elder Elemental Power weapon again, I wouldn't be able to summon an Elder Air Elemental, because I had already done so with that weapon, even though it was a different special ability that I had expended? If I used the infusion on a different weapon, would I be able to summon one, since I hadn't used that particular weapon to summon one that day? Or is my daily allotment of Elder Air Elementals used up for that Artificer?

[Segev]

My argument is that when you use up the ability once on your sword, then summon it again, it's not the same expended Air Elder Elemental Power ability applied to the sword as it was before.Here's where you have to use words that contradict the RAW in order to make your argument: you speak of an "expended Air Elder Elemental Power ability." There isn't one. There is only the sword, which has the power to summon an Elder Air Elemental once per day.

In order for the "you can own two swords, each of which can summon an Elder Air Elemental" argument to work, you'd have to show that you called a second, different weapon the second time you called it. Soulbound Weapon explicitly states that you always call the same weapon. So that's not an option.

There is no "expended" versus "unexpended" ability on the sword. It can summon an elder air elemental 1/day. If it has summoned one, it has reached capacity. You'd need to get it the power to summon 2x/day to get a second one.


Here's a more closely-related comparison that we can use. The infusion "Weapon Augmentation" allows you to apply a weapon special ability to your weapon. If you used Weapon Augmentation to apply the Air Elder Elemental Power ability to your weapon, then you can use that. Then the infusion's magic runs out, and the weapon goes back to being a regular weapon. Would you say that if I used the same infusion to make it an Air Elder Elemental Power weapon again, I wouldn't be able to summon an Elder Air Elemental, because I had already done so with that weapon, even though it was a different special ability that I had expended?Yes, actually, per the RAW. You'd have to use the Infusion on a separate, different weapon to be able to get another use of it.


If I used the infusion on a different weapon, would I be able to summon one, since I hadn't used that particular weapon to summon one that day? Or is my daily allotment of Elder Air Elementals used up for that Artificer?Nope, by the RAW as you present it here (which I assume is accurate to the RAW for Infusions), your use on a different weapon means you can summon one with that different weapon, just fine.

Like I said, I'm not arguing balance one way or another, here. I'm simply arguing strict reading of the RAW.

[Nettlekid]

So the limiter of whether or not an Elemental can be summoned is not on any magic power, but on a (potentially completely nonmagical) weapon? The Artificer can apply that infusion to any rusty old thing, magic or not. And yet the magic is able to say "No, this old dagger has already summoned an Air Elemental today. But if you had cast this exact same spell on THAT dagger over there, then you could get another Elemental." That sounds...spurious.

[Segev]

So the limiter of whether or not an Elemental can be summoned is not on any magic power, but on a (potentially completely nonmagical) weapon? The Artificer can apply that infusion to any rusty old thing, magic or not. And yet the magic is able to say "No, this old dagger has already summoned an Air Elemental today. But if you had cast this exact same spell on THAT dagger over there, then you could get another Elemental." That sounds...spurious.

It's what the rules say. They say that the weapon with this tag can summon an elemental 1/day.

After the infusion wears off, the rules say this weapon can summon an elemental 0/day. Yet (assuming you used the power while the infusion lasted), it DID summon an elemental once today already. If you apply the infusion to the same weapon, the count hasn't reset. It's still summoned once today already.


Now, fluff-wise? It makes sense that the magic is in the Infusion and thus you're "recharging" it. But by the same token, could you apply that Infusion to a weapon that already had the same tag? (Can it have the tag more than once?)

Anyway, if you want to argue RAI, balance, or fluff, that's another matter.

By the strict RAW, you need to infuse different weapons each time to get another elemental out of it. Otherwise, you're basically wasting the infusions.

And the Soulbonded weapon still can only summon 1 elemental (of each type) per day. (That is, assuming the Elder Elemental tag is elemental-type-specific; you can put the tag on to call an air elemental 1/day, then the tag for a fire elemental, etc....)

[Nettlekid]

It's what the rules say. They say that the weapon with this tag can summon an elemental 1/day.

After the infusion wears off, the rules say this weapon can summon an elemental 0/day. Yet (assuming you used the power while the infusion lasted), it DID summon an elemental once today already. If you apply the infusion to the same weapon, the count hasn't reset. It's still summoned once today already.


Now, fluff-wise? It makes sense that the magic is in the Infusion and thus you're "recharging" it. But by the same token, could you apply that Infusion to a weapon that already had the same tag? (Can it have the tag more than once?)

Anyway, if you want to argue RAI, balance, or fluff, that's another matter.

By the strict RAW, you need to infuse different weapons each time to get another elemental out of it. Otherwise, you're basically wasting the infusions.

And the Soulbonded weapon still can only summon 1 elemental (of each type) per day. (That is, assuming the Elder Elemental tag is elemental-type-specific; you can put the tag on to call an air elemental 1/day, then the tag for a fire elemental, etc....)

I guess I was operating under the supposedly RAI interpretation of "applying a weapon special ability a new time will recharge that ability for the weapon." But meh, I guess I'll have to settle for one of each size of each kind of elemental a day.

[Segev]

Hey, RAI/balance/fluff, it's whatever your DM will agree to.

But RAW, yeah, you'll have to settle for merely 4 (or more, if the various weird elementals are available in tag-form!) Elder Elementals per day. (I like Tempests, myself.)

[Nettlekid]

Well, okay, with that confirmed, what are some of the best uses for a flexible weapon like this? As I said before, the idea of putting Bane/Dread onto your weapon as the situation demands is pretty good. What other situational special abilities would be more beneficial to have only when you need them as opposed to having them just on the weapon all the time?

[Segev]

Power Storing/Spell Storing, put on it when you have a power or spell to load up, but don't waste the space other times.

Choose your elemental tags for the weaknesses of your foes.

Keen, useful against things vulnerable to slashing and criticals; stack it with the burst tags, but leave them off against non-crit-vulnerable things.

Defending, against foes you're more worried about protecting yourself than dealing damage (e.g. glass cannons such as rogues).

Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic

Metaline

Throwing and Returning when you just can't get into melee

Disruption vs. the undead

Merciful - normally "can" be turned off; you actually save the enhancement bonus when you don't need it.

Brilliant Energy against foes with the right kind of armor; don't bother when it's not helpful.

[Nettlekid]

Ooh, Brilliant Energy is a good one, since that's really neat when you want it and dreadful when you don't. And Disruption is a great niche use.

I wonder, can you permanently enchant your own Soulbound Weapon as normal? I know that it disappears if you relinquish your grasp on it for more than two rounds, but let's say you manage to hold onto it through the whole process. If you had the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, summon the sword, it's already a +X Sword, and then you craft it into a +X Keen Mindfeeder Sword, then let it vanish, then summon it again, would it come back as a +X Keen Mindfeeder Sword for no extra PP cost? And then you could augment as normal to make it a +X Keen Mindfeeder whatever Sword?

[Segev]

It says it's the same one every time. The question is whether it has any permanent properties other than "being the same one." Generally, you can't willy-nilly rewrite the properties of "the same" weapon. The "base" thing seems to just be an ordinary weapon of its type. Maybe masterwork?

In theory, if it's masterwork, you can enchant it. But would it retain those properties? Can you be sure you're drawing it from "after" you last had it, to get those enhancements?



Now here is an interesting question.

It's always the same weapon, "drawn from elsewhere in time and space." But, like Called Weapons of any sort, they ARE real and you ARE taking them from somewhere.

What happens if a wizard prepares your weapon for Instant Summons, and then you let it return? The wizard then Summons it.

If it's Soulbonded, you'll call it to your hand every time you activate it. But since you call it from elsewhere in TIME, you might not get it at the "when" that it's at now. If that makes your DM's head hurt too much, then it definitely pops out of existence where it was and into your hand. Now that you have it on both ends, when it's summoned and when it's not, what might you be able to pull off with it?

[Fax Celestis]

It says it's the same one every time. The question is whether it has any permanent properties other than "being the same one." Generally, you can't willy-nilly rewrite the properties of "the same" weapon. The "base" thing seems to just be an ordinary weapon of its type. Maybe masterwork?

In theory, if it's masterwork, you can enchant it. But would it retain those properties? Can you be sure you're drawing it from "after" you last had it, to get those enhancements?



Now here is an interesting question.

It's always the same weapon, "drawn from elsewhere in time and space." But, like Called Weapons of any sort, they ARE real and you ARE taking them from somewhere.

What happens if a wizard prepares your weapon for Instant Summons, and then you let it return? The wizard then Summons it.

If it's Soulbonded, you'll call it to your hand every time you activate it. But since you call it from elsewhere in TIME, you might not get it at the "when" that it's at now. If that makes your DM's head hurt too much, then it definitely pops out of existence where it was and into your hand. Now that you have it on both ends, when it's summoned and when it's not, what might you be able to pull off with it?
Certainly not TWF, since you can't TWF with the same weapon.

[Rubik]

As far as the elemental summoning goes, grab a two-ended weapon (or better yet, a three-ended weapon, such as an elvencraft longbow for bow/quarterstaff end #1/quarterstaff end #2) and apply the summoning enhancement on each end separately. Feel free to do the same with other X/day abilities, such as Dispelling and Lucky.

As far as cool enhancements to add? Ghost touch (for incorporeals), sundering (for the odd hydra or wall you need to punch through), explosive/exit wounds (for LoE attacks on huge mobs of enemies or groups in long hallways -- add throwing and distance to enhance your unarmed strike through summoning a battlefist or a necklace of natural weapons if your DM won't let you enhance yourself directly), morphing/sizing (to give it a wider range of things it can do in case you find yourself up against something that calls for a specific weapon, such as a lance), and manyfang (for when that x3 damage from wielding a lance while mounted just won't cut it).

[Nettlekid]

It says it's the same one every time. The question is whether it has any permanent properties other than "being the same one." Generally, you can't willy-nilly rewrite the properties of "the same" weapon. The "base" thing seems to just be an ordinary weapon of its type. Maybe masterwork?

In theory, if it's masterwork, you can enchant it. But would it retain those properties? Can you be sure you're drawing it from "after" you last had it, to get those enhancements?



Now here is an interesting question.

It's always the same weapon, "drawn from elsewhere in time and space." But, like Called Weapons of any sort, they ARE real and you ARE taking them from somewhere.

What happens if a wizard prepares your weapon for Instant Summons, and then you let it return? The wizard then Summons it.

If it's Soulbonded, you'll call it to your hand every time you activate it. But since you call it from elsewhere in TIME, you might not get it at the "when" that it's at now. If that makes your DM's head hurt too much, then it definitely pops out of existence where it was and into your hand. Now that you have it on both ends, when it's summoned and when it's not, what might you be able to pull off with it?

Mind. Blown.
That's true, I hadn't considered the time aspect. I was thinking it was amusing that an adventurer might be disconcerted to find that their own weapon vanished every so often because a Psychic Warrior was summoning it. But yeah, if you take it from the past, and then the Wizard does as you say, and then summons it in the present...ooh. What if you tied notes to the weapon, saying "Hello, my name is Sandharrow, from the year 481X, in the town of Deep Thesoria. Where and when are you from?"

It might be worth it for a Psychic Warrior to hunt down his own Soulbound Weapon so that he knows where it is at all times. I had kind of imagined it being like a regular weapon in his home that he then called to hand when he needed it, but it could very well be someone else's weapon that he keeps stealing.

[Psyren]

What happens if a wizard prepares your weapon for Instant Summons, and then you let it return? The wizard then Summons it.

Call Weaponry calls the weapon from another location in space and time. Therefore, whenever you let the weapon return, it exists in another part of the time stream, not your own.

Because of this, Instant Summons on the weapon while Call Weaponry is not active will always fail. Because it is in a different time when the power is not running, it is either coming from the future (i.e. it doesn't exist yet) or the past (it existed once, but is already gone.) Either way, it doesn't exist to be Summoned.

[Nettlekid]

Call Weaponry calls the weapon from another location in space and time. Therefore, whenever you let the weapon return, it exists in another part of the time stream, not your own.

Because of this, Instant Summons on the weapon while Call Weaponry is not active will always fail. Because it is in a different time when the power is not running, it is either coming from the future (i.e. it doesn't exist yet) or the past (it existed once, but is already gone.) Either way, it doesn't exist to be Summoned.

What if it was created in the past, never destroyed, and retains the Wizard's summoning preparation all the way until the present day? Then you Instant Summon it, so you have the real weapon, but you can still use Call Weaponry to summon the same weapon from the past. Right? That's so cool! TWF using the same weapon from different points in its timeline!

[Segev]

Because of how it's worded, it can be taken from any time and any place it ever was or will be (except, we might assume, while its own psionic power is holding it in the manifester's hand). Which can hamper any really fun things you might pull off...except with DM complicity (and what a gold mine for complicity...)


Imagine a soulbound psychic warrior who, after a few levels, notices a message etched in his blade. It's a warning or piece of advice which turns out to be prescient.

Suddenly, you're playing a "Lake House" or "Time Traveller's Wife" sort of game, with different messages appearing on the sword with different summonings. Sometimes, it's additional messages with old ones still there. Other times, it's cleaner (possibly reforged or treated with magic to cleanse it, possibly newer). Disjointed, out-of-order conversations occur, tying the Psychic Warrior to one or more mysterious owners of his stolen blade.

Destiny, prophecy, temporal paradox, and (played well) an emotional sort of "pen pal" relationship might develop.

As a plot point, sans psychic warrior in the party, a PC might find his weapon periodically popping out of existence, and you can have this plot line evolve if he pursues it (or have the psychic warrior doing the summoning get curious about it and start the exchange).

[Segev]

What if it was created in the past, never destroyed, and retains the Wizard's summoning preparation all the way until the present day? Then you Instant Summon it, so you have the real weapon, but you can still use Call Weaponry to summon the same weapon from the past. Right? That's so cool! TWF using the same weapon from different points in its timeline!

And then the one Called from the past gets Sundered. Do you have your Inevitable insurance paid up?

[Vortenger]

On the topic of the Summon X effects, is there any reason a person could not just use each of the elements 1/day? Yes, your weapon has used its 1/day summon of a greater air elemental, but you should be able to use earth next time, as its a separate ability w/ a separate naming convention, right?

In the case of using a double sided weapon, a person could then enchant each end w/ each element 1/day for a total of 8 summons/day, more than adequate to assist the average psywar, I'd think.

[Segev]

On the topic of the Summon X effects, is there any reason a person could not just use each of the elements 1/day? Yes, your weapon has used its 1/day summon of a greater air elemental, but you should be able to use earth next time, as its a separate ability w/ a separate naming convention, right?

In the case of using a double sided weapon, a person could then enchant each end w/ each element 1/day for a total of 8 summons/day, more than adequate to assist the average psywar, I'd think.
Correct on all counts. The loophole is to get a two-sided weapon for 2/day use of each elemental, and to use DIFFERENT elemental 1/day abilities for additional uses.

[Nettlekid]

Because of how it's worded, it can be taken from any time and any place it ever was or will be (except, we might assume, while its own psionic power is holding it in the manifester's hand). Which can hamper any really fun things you might pull off...except with DM complicity (and what a gold mine for complicity...)


Imagine a soulbound psychic warrior who, after a few levels, notices a message etched in his blade. It's a warning or piece of advice which turns out to be prescient.

Suddenly, you're playing a "Lake House" or "Time Traveller's Wife" sort of game, with different messages appearing on the sword with different summonings. Sometimes, it's additional messages with old ones still there. Other times, it's cleaner (possibly reforged or treated with magic to cleanse it, possibly newer). Disjointed, out-of-order conversations occur, tying the Psychic Warrior to one or more mysterious owners of his stolen blade.

Destiny, prophecy, temporal paradox, and (played well) an emotional sort of "pen pal" relationship might develop.

As a plot point, sans psychic warrior in the party, a PC might find his weapon periodically popping out of existence, and you can have this plot line evolve if he pursues it (or have the psychic warrior doing the summoning get curious about it and start the exchange).

We're getting into Homestuck territory. I seriously love it. I'm going to suggest this to a friend in an upcoming low-Epic game. It would be great if you made this weapon intelligent, like through Item Familiar or something, so it could actually keep track of where it was and what it was doing and what people are saying on other ends of the timeline.

If you didn't want to deal with like, taking the weapon from 200 years in the past, and then 300 years in the future if it's somehow still around, and the difficulties involved there, maybe there's a set timeline guideline. Like "Obtain this weapon wherever it is in space, 500 years before right now." Because if the last time you called it was yesterday, then that was 500 years and 1 day ago, as opposed to 500 years ago now.


And then the one Called from the past gets Sundered. Do you have your Inevitable insurance paid up?

Depending on your DM's interpretation of how time works, the existence of the future one means that the past one can never be destroyed, or will always be reforged. Maybe make it out of Aurorum though, just to be safe.

EDIT: Ooh, it might be cool if you craft your Soulbound Weapon yourself, so that you know exactly where its timeline starts. Then you know that every time it disappears, it's your future self (or after a while, potentially past self) summoning it!

[enderlord99]

No, by RAW you cannot, as I've just demonstrated. The "from another point in space and time" bit is RAW proof, as you are not summoning yourself from another point in space or time, but the "into your waiting hand" is also a good RAW argument as to how you cannot. Even if you want to argue that you can summon your own fists (hint, you can't), you definitely cannot summon your fist (or as Rubix pointed out, your whole body since any part of the body can be used as an Unarmed Strike) into your hand, because your hand disappears as your body disappears as it is summoned into your hand.

Because, clearly, flavor text has a bearing on the rules.

[Nettlekid]

Because, clearly, flavor text has a bearing on the rules.

People on this forum foam at the mouth while arguing ridiculous claims that are so clearly not meant to be used the way these people are insisting they can be, solely based on RAW. That is to say, where's the point where something stops being flavor text and starts being mechanics?

[Vortenger]

Soulbound Weapon is made of 'ordinary materials'. I dunno how you're supposed to use Aurorum, even if you made the thing. Sorry, Nettlekid.

[animewatcha]

The point in which you take dragon 341 feat of Reshape Mind Blade for unarmed strike before/at the soulbound weapon mess and therefore qualifying the unarmed strike for soulbound weapon ( if it didn't before, I can't remember ). Then throw that into the unarmed strike soulbound weapon legality argument.

-edit- nevermind. I thought the two were 'the same' for some reason.

-edit 2- actually use soulbound weaponry for tashlatora monk and call it Power rangering. Stack with necklace of natural weapons for more abilities.

[Rubik]

Soulbound Weapon is made of 'ordinary materials'. I dunno how you're supposed to use Aurorum, even if you made the thing. Sorry, Nettlekid.Aurorum is normal for weapons made from aurorum.

Remember, "normal" is generally subjective.

[Psyren]

What if it was created in the past, never destroyed, and retains the Wizard's summoning preparation all the way until the present day?

Then you Instant Summon it, so you have the real weapon, but you can still use Call Weaponry to summon the same weapon from the past. Right? That's so cool! TWF using the same weapon from different points in its timeline!

This will only work if the one the Wizard marked did indeed come from the past. If all your "calls" come from the future, there will never be a "present-day marked weapon" to summon. Considering that pulling from the past would have all kinds of butterfly implications, I would for simplicity's sake rule against pulling from the past and sidestep this issue entirely.


Aurorum is normal for weapons made from aurorum.

Remember, "normal" is generally subjective.

Isn't it listed as a "special" material? It can't be both.

[Nettlekid]

This will only work if the one the Wizard marked did indeed come from the past. If all your "calls" come from the future, there will never be a "present-day marked weapon" to summon. Considering that pulling from the past would have all kinds of butterfly implications, I would for simplicity's sake rule against pulling from the past and sidestep this issue entirely.

It definitely would have butterfly effect implications, as we're suggesting sending messages back and forth and whatnot. Pulling it from the future has similar effects, not for you, but because the person who owns it in the future might send notes back and ask you to change stuff.

Hm, just realized, what stops you from manifesting the power several times, plucking the weapon from different places in time with each manifestation?

EDIT: As for the material, I suppose you're right that it can't be Aurorum, though if I was the DM I'd say that the "made of normal materials" is put in there specifically for the random weapons you're drawing from Call Weaponry, but this is a special, particular weapon, so it can be however you please. But that's just my interpretation, and RAW (and probably RAI) you're quite right.

[Segev]

Yeah, material properties aren't something you can pick. I might let you take a feat, if I were DM, to make it a specific material.

[Segev]

Hm, just realized, what stops you from manifesting the power several times, plucking the weapon from different places in time with each manifestation?

Theoretically? Nothing, but again, it's pure DM fiat from when and where it comes each time.

[Psyren]

It definitely would have butterfly effect implications, as we're suggesting sending messages back and forth and whatnot. Pulling it from the future has similar effects, not for you, but because the person who owns it in the future might send notes back and ask you to change stuff.

The future is constantly in flux though. Indeed, you can pull the same object from the same future place and time and find that it has no mark at all due to actions taken in the present - that object's past.



Hm, just realized, what stops you from manifesting the power several times, plucking the weapon from different places in time with each manifestation?

Nothing. But you have no control where or when it comes from - only the DM does. The only thing you can be sure of is that it's not from here and now.

Ninja'd by Segev

[Segev]

The only thing you can be sure of is that it's not from here and now.

Actually, you can only be sure it's not from here. (And even then, only if you know you don't have it right now without calling it.) It could as easily be from "now" as any other time. Though admittedly, if you treat each individual moment as equally probable, NOW now might not be likely. If you go with the more generally narrative "past/present/future" divide, then "now" is "within a reasonable amount of time of this moment," and it could be from "now." Just not as likely, again assuming an even distribution of temporal origins.

[Psyren]

Actually, you can only be sure it's not from here. (And even then, only if you know you don't have it right now without calling it.) It could as easily be from "now" as any other time.

Not by RAW - it says "another space AND time", not "space OR time." The difference might be nanoseconds, but there will be one.

[Segev]

Ah, good point.

Still there's interesting plot potential from the unintended consequences of this ACF.

[Nettlekid]

The future is constantly in flux though. Indeed, you can pull the same object from the same future place and time and find that it has no mark at all due to actions taken in the present - that object's past.



Nothing. But you have no control where or when it comes from - only the DM does. The only thing you can be sure of is that it's not from here and now.

Ninja'd by Segev

Hmm...When you say that the future's in flux, I'm not sure it means you can't have predestination. For example, if you craft your own Soulbound Weapon, and then it vanishes for a few minutes, then doesn't that mean that you MUST use Call Weaponry at some point in the future? If you don't, where did it go?

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm...When you say that the future's in flux, I'm not sure it means you can't have predestination. For example, if you craft your own Soulbound Weapon, and then it vanishes for a few minutes, then doesn't that mean that you MUST use Call Weaponry at some point in the future? If you don't, where did it go?

Or you called it in the past.

Or in the future from an alternate dimension.

tl;dr soulbound weaponry are TARDISes.

[Psyren]

Hmm...When you say that the future's in flux, I'm not sure it means you can't have predestination. For example, if you craft your own Soulbound Weapon, and then it vanishes for a few minutes, then doesn't that mean that you MUST use Call Weaponry at some point in the future? If you don't, where did it go?

How do you know it wasn't someone else using Call Weaponry? :smalltongue:

And for that matter, there have been no tales of briefly vanishing weapons in realmslore or other D&D history that I know of, though of course some go missing for extended periods of time.

[Segev]

there have been no tales of briefly vanishing weapons

Well, maybe there should be. :smallcool:

[Rubik]

What if you invent a unique weapon and even call it by name? Craft it from an exotic material, make it intelligent, and use the named weapon as your soulbound weapon? If you're the only person who has crafted -- or will likely ever craft -- a special swordchuck (named Chuck, of course), as an example, there's only one weapon like it, and that's the one you'll call when you summon it.

It'd also let you communicate with whoever it is in the future, through the weapon's personality. Just make sure you craft it to be truthful to you.

[Psyren]

What if you invent a unique weapon and even call it by name? Craft it from an exotic material, make it intelligent, and use the named weapon as your soulbound weapon?

Then congratulations, you just prevented yourself from calling it :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Then congratulations, you just prevented yourself from calling it :smalltongue:But then the special material would be "normal" for a weapon of that kind, since it's normal for Chuck to be made of riverine or whatever.

What about weapons that are otherwise crafted out of odd materials as a matter of course? Aren't there swords that are filled with mercury? Fullblades, I believe? That's normal for a fullblade, though mercury isn't a "normal" material (whatever that might be).

[Nettlekid]

How do you know it wasn't someone else using Call Weaponry? :smalltongue:

Ohhhhhhhhhh dear. Okay, this is actually how we write The Time Traveller's Wife in D&D form because we have two starcrossed lovers, who happen to be Psychic Warriors, Soulbound to the same weapon, communicating through the weapon through who knows how much time? Perhaps they have diaries, Doctor Who-style, tied to the hilt of the weapon to let each other know when the weapon was just taken from. Maybe that's where the phrase "Soulmate" comes from. Mistranslation of Soulbound.

Then we introduce Teleport Through Time and it all goes crazy.

I feel like we should be abusing Quintessence in this somehow. Like, sticking the weapon from the past in it so that it can only be called from further in the past, or something? Or only from the future? I dunno. Any ideas for Quintessence abuse with this thing?

Tell you what; this would make a beastly Phylactery for a Lich. Hide it through time. WAIT If you had a Psychic Warrior Lich (just go with it) who made his Soulbound Weapon his Phylactery, and it was from the past, and his body died, would his Phylactery recreate his body in the past? Or would it immediately create a body in the past because there was no physical body there to begin with? It would also be a good way if you wanted a time skip for a Lich to call a weapon from the distant future, make it his Phylactery, die in the present, and then only when the weapon reappeared in the future would the Lich reform.

[Psyren]

But then the special material would be "normal" for a weapon of that kind, since it's normal for Chuck to be made of riverine or whatever.

But that means Chuck has no stats, because it is the only one of its "kind." You can't use any of the published stats, as those all belong to different kinds. So Chuck would be pretty useless in a fight. Maybe it's a three-handed sword, maybe it's a squiggle, who knows.

[Segev]

Ohhhhhhhhhh dear. Okay, this is actually how we write The Time Traveller's Wife in D&D form because we have two starcrossed lovers, who happen to be Psychic Warriors, Soulbound to the same weapon, communicating through the weapon through who knows how much time?

Alternatively, they're soulbound to weapons the other made and carries.

[Rubik]

But that means Chuck has no stats, because it is the only one of its "kind." You can't use any of the published stats, as those all belong to different kinds. So Chuck would be pretty useless in a fight. Maybe it's a three-handed sword, maybe it's a squiggle, who knows.Hence you inventing it. That part would, of course, be homebrew on the creator's part, and it would likely require Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[Nettlekid]

Alternatively, they're soulbound to weapons the other made and carries.

THAT'S CUTE.

[Rubik]

THAT'S CUTE.Says the guy with Ted the Mindflayer as his avatar. *Thumbs up!*

[Nettlekid]

And for that matter, there have been no tales of briefly vanishing weapons in realmslore or other D&D history that I know of, though of course some go missing for extended periods of time.

I just realized, how stupid of me, because we're not sticking to the timeline in parallel seconds (that is to say, one minute passing in my time corresponds to one minute passing in the past), the weapon needn't appear to have disappeared at all. It might flicker ever so slightly, taken from 500 years in the past, and returned 500 years and 50 minutes into the past (from the point of view of the present, where it's been for 50 minutes.)

EDIT: I guess to do Quintessence things, you could craft your own Soulbound weapon, immediately dunk it in Quintessence, and then summon it, and the only place you can summon it from is from the future from after you take it out of the Quintessence, so you wait until there's like a global catastrophe or something and you write down what to do to stop it, then take out the weapon, stick the notebook on it, and so back when you summoned it shortly after creating it, you get the notebook of future cheats.

[Psyren]

Hence you inventing it. That part would, of course, be homebrew on the creator's part, and it would likely require Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

How do you invent a weapon that is a totally different kind from every other existing weapon? That strikes me like trying to invent a new color or smell.


I just realized, how stupid of me, because we're not sticking to the timeline in parallel seconds (that is to say, one minute passing in my time corresponds to one minute passing in the past), the weapon needn't appear to have disappeared at all. It might flicker ever so slightly, taken from 500 years in the past, and returned 500 years and 50 minutes into the past (from the point of view of the present, where it's been for 50 minutes.)

Good point - it does return "wherever it originated" which means it doesn't need to have been gone at all.

Of course, if that is the case and it actually returns in the state it originated from, that would rule out permanent changes such as being sundered or Arcane Marked.



EDIT: I guess to do Quintessence things, you could craft your own Soulbound weapon, immediately dunk it in Quintessence, and then summon it, and the only place you can summon it from is from the future from after you take it out of the Quintessence,

Or from right before full immersion - unless you craft it inside quintessence (which you can't), there will always be time when it is outside prior to dunkage.

[Nettlekid]

Of course, if that is the case and it actually returns in the state it originated from, that would rule out permanent changes such as being sundered or Arcane Marked.


I dunno, does it have to return in the same state? A warrior draws his trusty sword, and suddenly realizes it bursts into flame. "Huh, I didn't know it could do that." Maybe there's no such thing as a Legacy Weapon, or anything that unlocks secret abilities over time; it's all just a Psychic Warrior's Soulbound Weapon being improved in another time frame. I'm sure there are stories of a weapon suddenly being stronger than it was before.



Or from right before full immersion - unless you craft it inside quintessence (which you can't), there will always be time when it is outside prior to dunkage.

Ah, yeah, true. Since we've decided that it can disappear and reappear in less than the blink of an eye, it could go that fast. But then again, if you stick it in the Quintessence and the summon it, and it's all shiny new without a handbook attached, then you can be like "Shoot, got it from just now" and try again. Assuming it's grabbed randomly from time, you'll get it from the future soon enough. I guess you'd just have to make sure to either break it or stick it back into Quintessence when you from the future get it back, or else you might be summoning it from even further in the future when you've taken the handbook off.

Maybe you could make a little scratchmark on it every time you summon it, so you can see how many times you've summoned it (or more accurately, the number of times it's been summoned) by the number of scratches.

[Vortenger]

I just want to say that its been a pleasure following along this conversation. Thanks.

I think you guys figured out why the illithids came back from the end of time. They couldn't handle the potential paradoxes a single alternate class feature could create.

As to Chuck, thats all homebrew, with the exception of a strict no to riverine, aurorum, etc. Both are under the Special materials section, and are therefore not 'ordinary' from a mechanical standpoint. Normal may be subjective in life, but less so in DnD; this has its own header. Cool idea to throw at a DM, though.

[Nettlekid]

I just want to say that its been a pleasure following along this conversation. Thanks.

I think you guys figured out why the illithids came back from the end of time. They couldn't handle the potential paradoxes a single alternate class feature could create.


And I think we figured out HOW they came back too. They all climbed on top of someone's Soulbound Weapon and warped together with it.

Wait. Wait.
Tie a Bag of Holding to a Soulbound Weapon.
Get in the bag.
Wait to be summoned.
Time travel.
???
Profit.

[Segev]

Use a weapon as your Magic Jar, and wait for it to be Called to another time?

[Psyren]

Wait. Wait.
Tie a Bag of Holding to a Soulbound Weapon.
Get in the bag.
Wait to be summoned.

Why would the bag come along? The power says nothing about summoning anything but the weapon.

Come to think of it, maybe that's what happens to the Arcane Mark - the power leaves it behind, floating in midair, for a quantum second.

[Segev]

Eh, I would agree on the bag and other things "tied to" the weapon, but an arcane mark is effectively "part" of it. Else, you could argue it "leaves behind" scratches that mark it in any way, as well, which is just plain silly.

And there is no RAW saying one way or the other how "decorations" are treated; it calls the weapon. Anything that is part of the weapon will come with it, but "attachments" that are obviously not likely won't.

[Psyren]

Eh, I would agree on the bag and other things "tied to" the weapon, but an arcane mark is effectively "part" of it. Else, you could argue it "leaves behind" scratches that mark it in any way, as well, which is just plain silly.

An arcane mark is specifically a separate effect though. It isn't damage or some other quality that is intrinsically part of the weapon.

"An arcane mark spell enables you to etch the rune upon any substance without harm to the material upon which it is placed."

So it can't really be compared to a scratch.



And there is no RAW saying one way or the other how "decorations" are treated; it calls the weapon. Anything that is part of the weapon will come with it, but "attachments" that are obviously not likely won't.

RAW is that it calls the weapon, and nothing else.

[Segev]

An arcane mark is specifically a separate effect though. It isn't damage or some other quality that is intrinsically part of the weapon.

"An arcane mark spell enables you to etch the rune upon any substance without harm to the material upon which it is placed."

So it can't really be compared to a scratch.Actually, since it uses the word "etch," it very much can be compared to a scratch.




RAW is that it calls the weapon, and nothing else.Yes, but is gilding on the hilt part of the weapon, or is that left behind? What about jewels in the pommel? If it has gold lining its blood-groove, would that be a part of it? Is the leather wrapped around the grip part of it, or left behind? What if something's written on said leather?

[Psyren]

Actually, since it uses the word "etch," it very much can be compared to a scratch.

It still creates something separate from the item itself.

"Effect: One personal rune or mark, all of which must fit within 1 sq. ft."

That thing is affixed to the item, certainly, but the power says nothing about bringing along affixed items.



Yes, but is gilding on the hilt part of the weapon, or is that left behind? What about jewels in the pommel? If it has gold lining its blood-groove, would that be a part of it? Is the leather wrapped around the grip part of it, or left behind? What if something's written on said leather?

Good questions all. Unfortunately, those things are generally made when the weapon is, not cast onto it afterward, so they are not analagous.

Basically you have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you run into "The rules don't say I can't bring my magical scabbard along with the sword." "The rules don't say I can't bring my cloak that the sword is tied to." "The rules don't say I can't bring the entire contents of the treasure vault where the sword is stored." etc.

[Segev]

It still creates something separate from the item itself.

"Effect: One personal rune or mark, all of which must fit within 1 sq. ft."

That thing is affixed to the item, certainly, but the power says nothing about bringing along affixed items."Affixed" is a tricky bit to deal with. I really think this falls into "DM call" territory. Not really a house rule either way, because the RAW is silent but a decision needs to be made if the hair gets split this fine.




Good questions all. Unfortunately, those things are generally made when the weapon is, not cast onto it afterward, so they are not analagous.Except that, if the leather grip is "part of it," that can be replaced later. Or, rather, at what point is "adding it" actually "affixing" something separate, versus just attaching it as the finishing touch?


Basically you have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise you run into "The rules don't say I can't bring my magical scabbard along with the sword." "The rules don't say I can't bring my cloak that the sword is tied to." "The rules don't say I can't bring the entire contents of the treasure vault where the sword is stored." etc.
Oh, I agree. I just think where the line is drawn is pretty well up to the DM. We can probably define some clear points that are beyond it, but how fine the hair is split in the middle will eventually come down to the DM making a decision.

Personally, I'd draw the line such that writing on the weapon goes with it. Of course, that does open potential not-kind pranking in the form of Explosive Runes. But that can be done with any "message-passing" method, so...

[Psyren]

"Affixed" is a tricky bit to deal with. I really think this falls into "DM call" territory. Not really a house rule either way, because the RAW is silent but a decision needs to be made if the hair gets split this fine.

Except that, if the leather grip is "part of it," that can be replaced later. Or, rather, at what point is "adding it" actually "affixing" something separate, versus just attaching it as the finishing touch?

When the weapon is created is pretty much the line I would use. Since adding the grip is a key part of a making a sword, I'd say it's part of the sword.

Or to put it another way, there are no rules for adding a grip to a sword after it is made.

But the sword pretty much has to be created before you can mark it, otherwise there is no "sword" there to actually mark. Thus, I consider it a separate item.



Personally, I'd draw the line such that writing on the weapon goes with it. Of course, that does open potential not-kind pranking in the form of Explosive Runes. But that can be done with any "message-passing" method, so...

I would rule the opposite. The way I envision the power, it pulls from space/time in such a way that you get the unmodified weapon every time, and the power then astrally enhances it while it's on its way to you. The only possible reasons to rule otherwise are exploitative.

[Segev]

When the weapon is created is pretty much the line I would use. Since adding the grip is a key part of a making a sword, I'd say it's part of the sword.

Or to put it another way, there are no rules for adding a grip to a sword after it is made.

But the sword pretty much has to be created before you can mark it, otherwise there is no "sword" there to actually mark. Thus, I consider it a separate item.Gilding, etching, leather grip wrapped around the wooden hilt... these things are not essential for the sword to function. A blacksmith warrior interrupted just as he finishes putting the hilt together but before he wraps the leather grip around it could wield the sword (albeit risking splinters or blisters or a poorer grip than usual) against the robbers who burst in on him, then, after vanquishing them, go back to finishing off the sword by adding the leather.

Would the fact he used it before adding the leather make the leather no longer part of the sword?




I would rule the opposite. The way I envision the power, it pulls from space/time in such a way that you get the unmodified weapon every time, and the power then astrally enhances it while it's on its way to you. The only possible reasons to rule otherwise are exploitative.Again, unless we're ignoring the "same weapon every time" wording as totally fluff that can never be meaningful in any way, we'll have to define "modified" vs. "unmodified," and whether changing the grip makes it an entirely different sword or not. Likewise, whether replacing a gem in the pommel makes it a different sword. Or heck, whether any gems at all are part of it for purposes of this effect.

[Psyren]

Gilding, etching, leather grip wrapped around the wooden hilt... these things are not essential for the sword to function.

The grip is part of a sword's entry though. Gilding I would disallow as that is not a "normal material" for a sword - swords are typically/generally not gilded. Etching is not part of a sword at all, rather that is damaging the blade in some visible way.

"Interrupting the blacksmith" and similar examples don't matter in a rules context; the entry for a sword tells us that it has a grip, hilt etc. If the item does not have those things, it is not a finished sword and therefore likely would count as an improvised weapon.



Again, unless we're ignoring the "same weapon every time" wording as totally fluff that can never be meaningful in any way, we'll have to define "modified" vs. "unmodified," and whether changing the grip makes it an entirely different sword or not.

That phrase goes both ways though. If you summon the weapon once and it has no scratches, marks etc., then arguably "same weapon every time" means it will never have those things when you resummon it no matter what you do to it in the interim.

Furthermore, ruling otherwise has detrimental side-effects. What happens if the weapon gets sundered or cursed while you have it, and then gets sent back? Should it come back with those conditions as well? After all, a curse is permanently affixed to the item just like an arcane mark would be, and breaking an item is certainly permanent until undone as well.

[Segev]

The grip is part of a sword's entry though. Gilding I would disallow as that is not a "normal material" for a sword - swords are typically/generally not gilded. Etching is not part of a sword at all, rather that is damaging the blade in some visible way.

"Interrupting the blacksmith" and similar examples don't matter in a rules context; the entry for a sword tells us that it has a grip, hilt etc. If the item does not have those things, it is not a finished sword and therefore likely would count as an improvised weapon.*shrug* Fair enough. I did say this was DM call territory.




That phrase goes both ways though. If you summon the weapon once and it has no scratches, marks etc., then arguably "same weapon every time" means it will never have those things when you resummon it no matter what you do to it in the interim.

Furthermore, ruling otherwise has detrimental side-effects. What happens if the weapon gets sundered or cursed while you have it, and then gets sent back? Should it come back with those conditions as well? After all, a curse is permanently affixed to the item just like an arcane mark would be, and breaking an item is certainly permanent until undone as well.If so, then the "same weapon every time" is actually meaningless. It's no different than the normal Call Weapon's "archetypal" weapon drawn at random from all weapons of that sort.

Me, I would say that sundering sticks, as might curses. There are consequences to your soulbound weapon being afflicted in these ways. I wouldn't allow item enchantment to be done, as the power explicitly states what enhancements the weapon has when called, but that's magic (well, psionics) overriding whatever was there.

There's nothing wrong with your interpretation, either, though. As I said, the rules are rather silent here. I can see your logic and wouldn't argue against it if you were DMing a game.

[Rubik]

Consider this: it is a summoning power. It acts under all the rules that is enforced by summoning. One of those rules is that damage taken to the summoned creature and/or object does not carry over to the actual subject in question once it's sent back, nor will those nicks/scrapes/cuts/bruises/breaks carry over to the next time you summon whatever it is.

[edit] The summoning subschool specifies creatures, but I imagine objects work the same way, especially if they're intelligent objects.

[Segev]

Consider this: it is a summoning power. It acts under all the rules that is enforced by summoning. One of those rules is that damage taken to the summoned creature and/or object does not carry over to the actual subject in question once it's sent back, nor will those nicks/scrapes/cuts/bruises/breaks carry over to the next time you summon whatever it is.

[edit] The summoning subschool specifies creatures, but I imagine objects work the same way, especially if they're intelligent objects.
Actually, it doesn't specify it is a summoning. It uses the word "call," which I believe is actually the same as how Gate phrases it. It definitely lacks the "summoning" subschool.