building a samurai in core

[the OOD]

for an upcoming campaign I want to build a samurai-themed character, but only have the core rules available to me:smallfrown:. How can I create an optimized (samurai-style)fighter(/other) without using polearms/spiked chain builds?
DM may allow items other books on an op-in basis, but not to much.
so, o' optimizers in the playground, what advice have you?

[eggynack]

Well, it must be asked. What does being a samurai mean to you? It's not like there's some definitive chunk of mechanical meaning behind the idea of a samurai, and if there is, I don't feel like it's a TWF intimidation build. Offhand, I'd say that the best core equivalent of a samurai is a paladin, and the best core equivalent of a paladin is a cleric. Thus, maybe you should be a cleric. Devote yourself to some lawful god, pick up a weapon, and imbue it with your holy ancestor samurai magic, or whatever you want to call it. In any case, clerics can be just about anything, so clerics can also be this.

[HunterOfJello]

When you say "samurai" and "samurai style" what specifically are you thinking about? Describe what this person's fighting style is, what weapons and armor they might use, etc.

We can make builds based on historical samurai, but they will be quite a bit different than hollywood samurai or things you see in anime.

[the OOD]

historicalish samurai, worships no god and has quite a busido/zen mix of a philosophy to which he dedicates his life.
mechanically, i want him to be able to cause and withstand injury, and be purely martial.
... its a tall order, but I want to believe it can be done
Iwanttobelive
(edit: one sword and two swords builds are both on the table)

[shortround]

Then the next question is how do you feel about class levels being flavourful constructs rather than mechanical vehicles? For instance, a cleric can mechanically give you exactly what you're looking for in a martially proficient character who draws on his zen to give him righteous strength, or a barbarian would give you a pretty solid mechanical chassis for a ronin-esque practitioner, but don't if in your mind taking barbarian levels equates to being a ruthless wild man or taking levels in cleric means you specifically practice divine magic. Your answer will determine the kind of builds people will suggest for you.

[Cespenar]

On the off-chance that your campaign won't include close spaces like dungeons, get some mounted feats, a lance (fluff it as a japanese spear), and a bow. Oh, and Spirited Charge.

Otherwise, you can go with a polearm reach build. I know you said you'd rather not, but samurai did use polearms extensively.

Also, a general optimization level and character starting level would be helpful. This would be much easier in low-mid op and high starting levels.

[the OOD]

barbarian refluff is fine, but I feel a key part of the character is that he does not gain supernatural powers from the gods, nor form his philosophy, he is (in his mind) simply a man living his life with resolve and faith in his way.

oh, and 3rd level, as optimized as i can get him within the character... i'll need it
(edit: no horses exist in the setting (http://selangod.blogspot.com/2012/02/whats-new-in-selangod.html). no, I will not ride a cow)

[Red Rubber Band]

Fighter/Barbarian mix, maybe? Throw in a goodly amount of charging stuff (so running around with a single, two handed weapon).
I'm not sure where it's from, but there is an Orc only charge damage increasing feat if you're not locked into being a certain race. It may not be from core though :(
A couple of levels in Paladin won't hurt (as you won't have spells yet). It just means you'll have to see if your DM will be lenient with you getting variant progressions for either Paladin or Barbarian so that the alignments don't clash. You can also then fluff your Paladin code as your own "way of the warrior" instead of it being divine.

[SowZ]

historicalish samurai, worships no god and has quite a busido/zen mix of a philosophy to which he dedicates his life.
mechanically, i want him to be able to cause and withstand injury, and be purely martial.
... its a tall order, but I want to believe it can be done
Iwanttobelive
(edit: one sword and two swords builds are both on the table)

Historically, Samurai favored the Naginata. The Katana was primarily for ritualistic duels and other niche functions. Wakizashis, basically shortswords, were carried as a back up similarly to how European knights viewed shortswords. Samurai were also excellent horseman, though their paradigm of cavalry was as archers. A true Samurai build would focus on either horseback archery, his naginata, or both.

Samurai charging into battle with just a Katana would be akin to a modern marine charging into a large scale battle with a revolver or a short barreled SMG. Dual wielding isn't something there is any real evidence for outside of a handful of myths.

Now, if this doesn't sit right with what you want, that is perfectly fine. A swordsman is a perfectly viable build in D&D and a dual wielder is a, (somewhat,) viable build, though less so without some method of precision damage. If you have an aesthetic of Samurai which is more katana based, no problem, but you may as well ditch worrying too much about historical accuracy at that point. You could have a character who roughly emulated historical Samurai culture/philosophy without actually emulating their combat style, though.

[the OOD]

You could have a character who roughly emulated historical Samurai culture/philosophy without actually emulating their combat style, though.
:smallbiggrin:

I was envisioning the use of a katana (and wakisahi if 2 weapon), as well as a tanto. the tanto would be reserved for throwing in emergencys and in place of katana in emergancys or if eaten (is that an emergency?)

RRB's suggestion sounds best to me, but would I favor paladin of fighter at first?
also what should i invest my feats in with so many classes?

[Sith_Happens]

If you want to use a katana primarily, then definitely two-hand it and only keep the wakizashi around for show.

Since you don't want spells, your levels are pretty much all going to be Fighter, maybe with the first three levels of Paladin if you don't mind having Lay of Hands (all the other Paladin 1-3 abilities can easily be explained as the result of your discipline and dedication, though they are supernatural).

For feats... there's really not much in Core that will actually help you all that much. You probably want to start with Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Cleave, and after that you're basically stuck going for flavor. Improved Disarm could be kind of useful depending on the campaign, and Spirited Charge definitely fits a samurai even if you won't be using it with a lance. Otherwise, the Weapon Focus line is better than nothing.

[Esclados]

Historically, archery was really important. Human fighter 1 scores three feats to start, so you can start with the golden point blank/precise/rapid combo. And max ride, obviously.

Mounted archery is also like, amazingly good. Even without feats, you can take a full attack action with a bow without penalty as long as your mount only moves up to its speed in a round (that means 50 feet for a lightly armored heavy warhorse).

You can stay away from melee and pew pew arrows very effectively and you want to take advantage of that. In an open area you'll get point blank rapid shots way more often than a non-mounted archer. For style points you can also carry a sword that you switch to and slash things if they get close and you're pretty sure the fight is in hand.

Unfortunately your heavy warhorse, even with armor, will become extremely fragile at higher levels since it's not a companion of any kind and thus doesn't scale. At high levels, try to talk to your DM into letting you get a more powerful mount with Leadership. One of the Eastern-themed dragons from OA would be cool, though (IIRC) they're only statted to start at Juvenile and you'd need them younger than that to cohort at a reasonable level.

[justiceforall]

Perhaps ask your GM if you can use the Holy Warrior ACF from Complete Champion? You did say in your OP that he/she may allow a rule or two from elsewhere?

If so - you can play a straight-class paladin with very little supernatural abilities and have your mount be a special mount. In my experience most GMs would generally allow you to apply the special mount to an actual horse instead of having it be gated-in as a celestial creature.

[the OOD]

Unfortunately your heavy warhorse, even with armor, will become extremely fragile at higher levels

Spirited Charge definitely fits

Improved Disarm could be kind of useful depending on the campaign
no horses, and possibly lots of evil plants...
it's a weird setting

lay on hands I can probably opt out of/exchange for extra heal ranks, and paladin has lots of sweet stuff; weapon/armor proficiency, large hit dice, aura of courage (perfect for my character)

what do I want from barbarian and the 3rd paladin level(s)?

[justiceforall]

Sorry missed the "no horses" part.

You can also use an ACF to trade out the mount for Charging Smite. Your GM would theoretically be well disposed to this sort of exchange given he's removed horses?

EDIT:

More usefully, from the SRD for paladins:

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine grace, lay on hands
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of courage, divine health
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn undead
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite evil 2/day, special mount
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Remove disease 1/week

Detect evil, lay on hands, turn undead and remove disease are the odd ones out for a "no magic" style. Detect evil you can explain as a hunch, remove disease rarely comes up, turn undead and lay on hands?

[icks]

I think the historical samouraï is more a Lawful Neutral character. They were no good, but dedicated to the bushido.
In their beliefs, you gain what your deserve in your next life, if you are a good samourai, you'll be better in the next life. If you're a low rank commoner, you deserve it because you had no honor in your previous life. So no need to be kind and helpful with lower rank than you, they deserve what they are and your worth much more.

They worshiped their ancestors and/or the Kami (deities of wind/fire/stone and so). You may (as cleric/paladin) choose elementals to worship instead of gods.
What's the variant of paladin characters with LN alignment?

[the OOD]

my group generally lets me ignore/reform the alignment/objective moral status of my character, its way better than an extended morality discussion during game time. my alignment will probably end up as just "lawful" although I could see LG or LN.

what is AFC?

does barbarian have anything I want besides large hit dice?

[Ravens_cry]

If you don't want to be switching horses or other mount every time they get hit, and you can convince your DM to step just a toe out of Core, the Wild Cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can serve you well. Less powerful than Leadership, the Core possibility, that's probably a good thing.

[justiceforall]

ACF - Alternate Class Feature. A bunch of the later 3.5 books let some base classes trade one class feature for another.

The example I was initially referring to was for Special Mount, which the ACF from the PHBII lets you switch for Charging Smite.

[Eldan]

If you face lots of one type of enemy, i.e. evil plants, you might consider two levels of archery rangers in there.

[SowZ]

There is the Kensai fighter variant which isn't more powerful than base fighter, but helps you fit the fluff of a fighter that is a true master of one weapon. It gives scaling passing buffs to the weapon of your choice in both accuracy and damage as well as has some Kensai only feats to specialize in a chosen weapon. While it has less feats than standard fighter, it frees up a few feats if you are dead set on being a katana master since you no longer go down the weapon focus tree.

(Feat for feat, the Kensai variant will get you slightly more damage/accuracy than going straight fighter with the weapon focus line unless you hit weapon mastery. Which you really shouldn't take fighter that far. Very few good fighter feats need that high of a fighter level. Mainly, this would be fun fluff since I've always viewed Kensai as perfect for the aesthetic of the 'katanas are better' expert.)

[Gwendol]

A refluffed knight could work: samurai did the whole name-calling and fighting challenges thing. Otherwise straight fighter with Zhent fighter sub levels for some demoralization on top.

[the OOD]

both kensai and knight sound solid, the kensai is especially interesting, and looks like a fun build. but for kensai would I take paladin or fighter(or knight) up to BAB +5 so I could get in? (note: starting level is 3). can anyone flush out this build more?

[Gavinfoxx]

Use a bog-standard Horizon Tripper and call your Guisarme a Kama-Yari. DONE.

[pilvento]

So far i belive that you should go with the paladin route at least for five lvls and use 2 ACF, one is the smite charge from PHB2 since you dont have mounts, and there is another ACF that lets you trade the paladin spellcasting for bonus feats at lvls 4,8,12 etc, in this case only lvl 4. this last ACF is from complete warrior.

At lvl 5 your character can look like this:

Human Paladin 5

Feats:
human - Power Attack
1 - Weapon Focus (katana/bastard sword/greatsword)
3 - Combat Expertice
bonus - improved Disarm (if you face lots of humanoids)

The next feat choices depends on the type of encounters you will face
Cleave, combat reflexes, imp trip.

Ask your DM to at least let you use the complete warrior for leap attack
After lvl 5 you can go into a PrC, Kensai in this case. Ki warlord = Shogun

If you cant leave the Core handbook, then stay as paladin using the bonus feat ACF, if you go for fighter you will run out of feats to use eventually.

[Urpriest]

If you cant leave the Core handbook, then stay as paladin using the bonus feat ACF, if you go for fighter you will run out of feats to use eventually.

This is pretty manifestly impossible, given that the bonus feat ACF isn't in the core handbook.

Anyway, if you want to be just a guy who hits people with a katana and has a code of honor, just go for Barbarian. You could pick up two Fighter levels to start, but you don't need them since there aren't a lot of good feats in Core. Barbarians can represent the Kiai rage sort of thing that samurai would have.

That said, often DMs limit players to Core in order to restrict character concepts and flavor, so you might not be allowed to play a "samurai" at all depending on the setting.

[IronFist]

Dual wielding isn't something there is any real evidence for outside of a handful of myths.

Erm, you are only sort of right. Dual wielding was very obviously a thing for samurai, with several schools teaching it. It just happened during periods of peace, when schools prospered.

[Person_Man]

Most optimal version would just be Cleric 20. You follow Samurai ideals. Pray to the spirits of your ancestors to aid you in battle.

You could also go Halfling Paladin 20. Take Leadership at 6th level to get a dragon or some other cool Special Mount (explicit rules for this in the Dungeon Master's Guide). Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride by Attack, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and use a lance two handed.

[ArcturusV]

I think I'm going to be odd and say Rogue, for a Core Only samurai. I have some rationales, though I don't claim that they're iron clad, or what you're looking for in particular.

1) Sneak Attack. This seems an obvious thing to me. It's very much in tune with the spirit of Iajutsu and other arts in a similar fashion, and with Core Only, no Magicking, you're not likely to get anything else that really approximates the precision strike, focused stance style.

2) Skill points. A lot of them. Samurai were nobles, not just thugs with weapons, after all. This would let your character be a bit more well rounded, and give you enough skill points to better approximate that compared to the starvation that is Fighter/Paladin skill points.

3) Agile fighter. I dunno if it's just me... but I never really had the image of a Samurai being a "tank" like the typical fighter/paladin in plate armor. Samurai armor just doesn't seem quite as robust. And if you look at pop culture the Samurai is usually an agile, dancing type fighter who dodges and weaves a lot. Fits the Dex focused rogue more than the "I can take a hit" fighter and paladin.

Downsides are that you might have to burn one of your level 1 feats on Weapon Prof, if you got some particular concept weapon in mind that fits a samurai, like a musket or a naginata. Well unless you want to just eat the -4 of course. But I think this could work.

Course, the rogue isn't going to be the most effective against a ton of plant enemies either. So you might not want to go that way. Just giving options and new avenues of thought.

[Beelzebub1111]

I'd go with Ranger for a core-only samurai build.

1)Daisho; Two weapon fighting is a staple of the samurai

2)Favored enemies: Humanoid(human), Humanoid(Orc), Humanoid(Elf), Humanoid(Dwarf), Humanoid(Goblinoid). The latter four being in any order since Dueling for Honor is a Samurai thing.

3)Animal Companion: Works as a mount or loyal hound

Ask if your DM will allow the Ancestral Weapon feat from BoED so you can have a family relic that you carry with HONOR. After you get Combat Style Mastery you can go for another class, Fighter for the Bonus Feats would work.

[Fax Celestis]

for an upcoming campaign I want to build a samurai-themed character, but only have the core rules available to me:smallfrown:. How can I create an optimized (samurai-style)fighter(/other) without using polearms/spiked chain builds?
DM may allow items other books on an op-in basis, but not to much.
so, o' optimizers in the playground, what advice have you?

By "core rules" do you mean "SRD only"? What about website stuff? You could do very well with a TWF or archery (samurai were known for both, after all) ranger, taking the Urban Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRang er) variant. The urban alternate features here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) might also be applicable (particularly, Rival Organization, Skilled City-Dweller, and Voice of the City). Full BAB, 6+int skills, TWF or archery, your choice, a mount, martial weapons...

This is, however, all contingent upon "core only" meaning "SRD only", or hoping your DM has the internet and a positive attitude.

[the OOD]

Point of order: no horses exist in the setting.
that said, my DM told me I could use Iaijutsu, even thou I didn't ask for it, feeling I needed it for a samurai, and also allowed kensai!:smallbiggrin:
pilvento: I need to look into that ACF

also when my group learned I was allowed IF, they all stocked up on marbles, balance ranks, and dedicated an animal companion as my flanker. the paladin skill points starvation hurts, and there is benefit to taking my first level in a skill- rich class like rouge(IF+sneak attack) or ranger(two weapon fighting).

more marvelous feedback, o' optimizers in the playground?

(edit: core means all PHBs)

[Gavinfoxx]

(edit: core means all PHBs)

Point of order, no it doesn't. So you are playing with Core+PHB II, then?

[OOPWER]

So far i belive that you should go with the paladin route at least for five lvls and use 2 ACF, one is the smite charge from PHB2 since you dont have mounts, and there is another ACF that lets you trade the paladin spellcasting for bonus feats at lvls 4,8,12 etc, in this case only lvl 4. this last ACF is from complete warrior.

At lvl 5 your character can look like this:

Human Paladin 5

Feats:
human - Power Attack
1 - Weapon Focus (katana/bastard sword/greatsword)
3 - Combat Expertice
bonus - improved Disarm (if you face lots of humanoids)

The next feat choices depends on the type of encounters you will face
Cleave, combat reflexes, imp trip.

Ask your DM to at least let you use the complete warrior for leap attack
After lvl 5 you can go into a PrC, Kensai in this case. Ki warlord = Shogun

If you cant leave the Core handbook, then stay as paladin using the bonus feat ACF, if you go for fighter you will run out of feats to use eventually.

If you don't mind me asking, what page is this Bonus Feats ACF on in CW? I don't see it in the "Variant Paladin" section.

As an aside, using Iaijutsu requires your opponent to be flat-footed or participating in an iaijutsu duel with you. Flanking won't give you the appropriate opportunities to use Iaijutsu.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Depending on how much out-of-Core your GM is willing to permit, I do happen to know of one samurai build which was fairly effective. In point of fact, he was the scariest Samurai alive. He could bring entire squadrons to their knees, cowering in fear, with his fearsome glare. Of course, he also couldn't do much actual damage, and is completely incapable of threatening anything which is Mindless (which is going to be most plants), but hey... he's certainly a model of psychological warfare.

Two-handed fighting is just going to be so much more powerful for your archetype than dual-wielding. The bonuses from Power Attack are simply overwhelming. Particularly if you can get your GM to sign off on Shock Trooper from Complete Warrior and Leap Attack from Complete Adventurer. Fighter is going to be the base-class of the day, sliding into Kensai, since that has already been approved. Mechanically, the best weapon to use would be a Greatsword (call it a Nodachi, if you prefer), however if you want something more realistic, a Guisarme (which you will call a 'Naginata') can still make trip attempts, although you'll have to be careful about opponents who try to close with you.

[Gwendol]

I'd go with Ranger for a core-only samurai build.



I was toying with the idea of a ranger as well, but would suggest the archery route instead, since samurai weren't known to dual wield their swords.

[Pickford]

If you want to use a katana primarily, then definitely two-hand it and only keep the wakizashi around for show.

Since you don't want spells, your levels are pretty much all going to be Fighter, maybe with the first three levels of Paladin if you don't mind having Lay of Hands (all the other Paladin 1-3 abilities can easily be explained as the result of your discipline and dedication, though they are supernatural).

For feats... there's really not much in Core that will actually help you all that much. You probably want to start with Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and Cleave, and after that you're basically stuck going for flavor. Improved Disarm could be kind of useful depending on the campaign, and Spirited Charge definitely fits a samurai even if you won't be using it with a lance. Otherwise, the Weapon Focus line is better than nothing.

If you're going to go ahead and wield a Katana, you might as well just take the first level(s) in Samurai. You get a free(!) mw bastard sword (katana) and mw short sword (wakizashi) along with exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword). That's a 645gp value at level 1...for free.

[Komatik]

Bu-but the Iron Heart / Diamond Mind Warblade... :smallfrown:

[Beelzebub1111]

I was toying with the idea of a ranger as well, but would suggest the archery route instead, since samurai weren't known to dual wield their swords.

what about Yagyū Jūbei?

[TuggyNE]

Depending on how much out-of-Core your GM is willing to permit, I do happen to know of one samurai build which was fairly effective. In point of fact, he was the scariest Samurai alive. He could bring entire squadrons to their knees, cowering in fear, with his fearsome glare. Of course, he also couldn't do much actual damage, and is completely incapable of threatening anything which is Mindless (which is going to be most plants), but hey... he's certainly a model of psychological warfare.

Oh Shneekey, you so modest.


If you're going to go ahead and wield a Katana, you might as well just take the first level(s) in Samurai. You get a free(!) mw bastard sword (katana) and mw short sword (wakizashi) along with exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword). That's a 645gp value at level 1...for free.

Act now and we'll throw in a free code of conduct, absolutely no charge! (Void where prohibited.)

[Gwendol]

what about Yagyū Jūbei?

What about him? The fact is that the samurai favored the naginata, and fenced with the katana holding it in one or two hands. Dual wielding was not the norm.

[Hytheter]

If you don't mind me asking, what page is this Bonus Feats ACF on in CW? I don't see it in the "Variant Paladin" section.


I think it's actually from Complete Champion, not complete Warrior. It's an easy mistake to make, I do it often.

It's called the Holy Warrior variant.

[Ruethgar]

I think the OP may be mistaking the Kensai PrC with the ACF. Just to clarify, the Kensai fighter variant SowZ suggested does not require 5 BaB and is found in Dragon Magazine 310.

[Fax Celestis]

If you don't mind me asking, what page is this Bonus Feats ACF on in CW? I don't see it in the "Variant Paladin" section.

It's really in CCham.

[IronFist]

It's really in CCham.

Yeah, the one in CW only gives up spells for some sucky abilities.

[Hytheter]

Yeah, the one in CW only gives up spells for some sucky abilities.

Yeah that one is really sucky.

The champion one is pretty nice though. Paladin spells aren't exactly the most powerful, and they make you a bit MAD, so a few bonus feats instead doesn't hurt.
That said, you don't get some of them them until later levels, and we all know what the later levels of Paladin are like...

[Pickford]

Oh Shneekey, you so modest.



Act now and we'll throw in a free code of conduct, absolutely no charge! (Void where prohibited.)

Er, wouldn't the Code be thematically appropriate for this?

[Sith_Happens]

If you're going to go ahead and wield a Katana, you might as well just take the first level(s) in Samurai. You get a free(!) mw bastard sword (katana) and mw short sword (wakizashi) along with exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword). That's a 645gp value at level 1...for free.

Core-only-with-specific-exceptions game. So no Samurai class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh Shneekey, you so modest.

I'm not sure if you were trying to be sarcastic or serious. Since I didn't see blue test, I shall assume serious.

The build was a novel one: It took a Tier 6 class and made him into a one-trick pony. Anything that was not immune to fear within 30' was permanently locked down. Intimidate + Mass Staredown + Imperious Command and Fearful armor enhancement (from DotUD). The dip in Exemplar to take 10 on Intimidate checks was icing on the cake. Realistically, nothing could make their contested HD check, it was just too crazy high.

However, there were some serious design flaws as well with the build. First, it relied on Intimidate to Demoralize, which anything Mindless will be immune to. He mentioned many opponents were going to be Plants, and Plants tend to be Mindless, which is immune to Intimidate checks to Demoralize. So this build might not be very effective in this campaign setting.

Plus, as a result of being a one-trick pony focusing exclusively on intimidation, he didn't have much in the way of attack bonus or damage output. He simply relied on his opponent having zero actions, so eventually, given enough Natural 20's, he would be able to kill nearly anything that wasn't immune to fear. But against anything immune to that tactic, he really sucked.

Takahashi was a cute trick, but it was a very limited trick, with some rather serious design flaws that simply could not be overcome with the resources I had available.

[LTwerewolf]

I know you said no polearms, but at the same time you said historic, which means polearms. Samurai, just like any other warrior, did not typically go around in battles with just their swords. Their swords were a secondary to their polearms. Why give your enemy the chance to hurt you when you don't need to? They typically used naginatas (glaive) or spears.

[the OOD]

thanks for all the great advice!

I may not have been clear on a few points, so here they are:
)samurai class not allowed.
)I want to make a non-mounted sword(s) build
)when I said kensai, I meant the PrC, if not for Ruethgar, I would never have known about the communication breakdown*. Thanks!
)Iaijutsu is allowed:smallconfused:. I will be keeping it at max.:smallbiggrin:
sorry for the lack of clarity.

my main choice at this point is if I go paladin/fighter with one sword and head for kensai(PrC), or paladin/fighter/(what next?) with two weapons and Iaijutsu damage.

what are the pros-cons and tricks to these builds, and which one do you recommend?

*I will investigate the ACF

[Lonely Tylenol]

Point of order: no horses exist in the setting.

Other animals can be mounts (DC20). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm)

I second the Ranger option: the fighting styles are conducive to two styles of fighting samurai are known for (if you want to be hard-nosed about both, then take Power Attack and focus on the THF use of a longsword, but have a short sword for use interchangeably with TWF as needed, and build the archer towards Mounted Archery feats, to capture the full spectrum of ceremonial archery skills). You can also choose to eschew both and fight mounted with a pole arm, but have one on hand as a secondary style. Rangers have a fairly broad range of skills that can be applied to a number of things samurai have been known, traditionally, to do, from calligraphy/painting to horseback riding. The animal companion could be your totally not-horse, falcon trained for scouting, or even a hunting dog (or more exotic creature as appropriate to the setting), and nobody would bat an eyelash at any of it. Wild Cohort could help you gather more high-quality creatures of the same type, and tactful use of Handle Animal can help you acquire typical creatures for the same purpose. Leadership gets you students and a squire when you've reached the appropriate point.

[MirddinEmris]

Historically, Samurai favored the Naginata. The Katana was primarily for ritualistic duels and other niche functions. Wakizashis, basically shortswords, were carried as a back up similarly to how European knights viewed shortswords. Samurai were also excellent horseman, though their paradigm of cavalry was as archers. A true Samurai build would focus on either horseback archery, his naginata, or both.

Samurai charging into battle with just a Katana would be akin to a modern marine charging into a large scale battle with a revolver or a short barreled SMG. Dual wielding isn't something there is any real evidence for outside of a handful of myths.

Now, if this doesn't sit right with what you want, that is perfectly fine. A swordsman is a perfectly viable build in D&D and a dual wielder is a, (somewhat,) viable build, though less so without some method of precision damage. If you have an aesthetic of Samurai which is more katana based, no problem, but you may as well ditch worrying too much about historical accuracy at that point. You could have a character who roughly emulated historical Samurai culture/philosophy without actually emulating their combat style, though.

Actually, Naginata is more appropriate to foot-soldiers (ashigaru). Samurai on a horseback would wield Yari. So, a lance-wielding paladin on a horseback would actually be viable Samurai build).

Dual wielding is not a myth, but it belongs more for a dueling style rather than on a battlefield, so depending on which history period of Japan OP wants to emulate, it could be done.

[SiuiS]

historicalish samurai, worships no god and has quite a busido/zen mix of a philosophy to which he dedicates his life.
mechanically, i want him to be able to cause and withstand injury, and be purely martial.
... its a tall order, but I want to believe it can be done
Iwanttobelive
(edit: one sword and two swords builds are both on the table)

I would suggest chaos monk (...might not e core, actually, I'm unsure how that works) and barbarian.you can get around +8 AC from light armor with medium proficiency, and choose a style that allows swords for monk weapons. You've got jiujutsu and kenpo (unarmed), kenjutsu with swords wherein you flurry if you need to, no fear of death (whirling frenzy or rage), an impressive number of potential attacks per turn, access to all sufficiently samurai skills (concentration for meditation and staring folks down, intimidate, ride, physical skills, profession and craft for poetry and philosophy, a non-utter crap number of skill points) and the rest is just flavor.


Oh! And it isn't core, but see if you can eventually access the feat "snap kick". It lets you take an Extra unarmed attack whenever you perform an attack action of any kind. I got good use out of that, improved bull rush, and some cheese wherein a samurai in full armor took on the party beat stick and repeatedly cut him up, kicked him (knocking him backwards) as then got an attack of opportunity when the target move back from the bullrush. Went a hundred feet through a burning hallway, five to ten feet at a time. Was pretty cool.


Dual wielding is not a myth, but it belongs more for a dueling style rather than on a battlefield, so depending on which history period of Japan OP wants to emulate, it could be done.

Aye, the idea is that dual wielding isn't historically incorrect, it's just not relevant to open warfare. I actually prefer the reading of of katana and wakizashi as "sword and long sword" rather than "sword and short sword", but whichever way one wants to go...

[MirddinEmris]

Aye, the idea is that dual wielding isn't historically incorrect, it's just not relevant to open warfare. I actually prefer the reading of of katana and wakizashi as "sword and long sword" rather than "sword and short sword", but whichever way one wants to go...

Yes, it would be more accurate...but "sword and short sword" gives you less penalties :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

In core only, your best bet is either Paladin or Ranger, probably.

Either can give you the mounted archery of traditional Samurai background, with a survivable mount (no horses is fine; DMG lists variant paladin mount options and last I checked that was every bit as core as the PHB), Ranger being better for the archery and Paladin better if you want more melee power and also fits better on alignment.

Fighter, as always, is best left as a 1, 2, or at most 4 level dip. I'd skip it entirely unless you're really hard up for feats.

Having some rogue levels could also be helpful (if you plan to, absolutely make sure Rogue 1 is your first level for the x4 skill points), and as another poster said, you can just fluff sneak attack as Iaijutsu.

You should either be doing mounted archery or spear (lance is close enough, too) fighting, or both. If you go the spears route and not specifically lance charging technique, you should probably just use a Guisarme and take Imp. Trip.
Alternatively, spiked chain and kusarigama (in the DMG) are both core weapons. They're ninja weapons, but you could always choose to be a "dishonored" Samurai, fighting with weapons other Samurai consider cowardly or beneath them. Obviously less traditional, but already is giving some flavor to the character.

[Pickford]

Core-only-with-specific-exceptions game. So no Samurai class.

In that case the only choice is Fighter. They get the feats necessary to excel at combat with multiple weapon types and are the best possible choice for archery 'and' melee combat.

Using core-only tends to gimp you in terms of feat choices however.


'Samurai':

Suggested feats:
Human: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
1st: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter2: Rapid Shot
3rd: Quick Draw
Fighter4: Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
6th: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Fighter6: Many Shot
Fighter8: Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
9th: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter10: Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
12th: Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Fighter12:Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Fighter14: Improved Critical (Longbow)
15th: Combat Reflexes
Fighter16: Improved Initiative
18th: Dodge
Fighter18: Mobility
Fighter20: Shot on the Run

Feel free to re-arrange as you see fit.

[Komatik]

Yes, it would be more accurate...but "sword and short sword" gives you less penalties :smallbiggrin:

It's not like D&D longswords are longswords anyway *pout*

[SiuiS]

In core only, your best bet is either Paladin or Ranger, probably.

Ranger confuses me. For strictly martial endeavors, a ranger is a fighter who gets tracking and some more skills in exchange for a smaller hit die. If you don't want spells, you don't want an animal companion, why ranger? Ranger is terrible at archery! Pure fighter gets the same feats at the same rate or better. The idea that ranger is better suited to its styles simply because they are automatic and not a choice confuses me. It's bizarre :smallconfused:

That said! A 'samurai' who draws his bow and enters a zen-like focus before releasing, and a ranger who casts an archery enhancing spell are the same thing with different description. Both paladin and ranger can represent discipline and martial arts Ki focus through magic. I always liked the idea of a samurai who almost falls in battle, until an ancestor lays gentle hand on their shoulder in comforting approval, and thousand, renewed, to fight again (either cure or lay on hands).


It's not like D&D longswords are longswords anyway *pout*

Aye. 'Long sword' in D&D is best described as a broad sword, isn't it?
Sword and long sword would end up giving you a long sword and bastard sword, aye. There are ways to make that hilariously fun, just not in core.

[MirddinEmris]

Well, to be fair - archery IS very demanding on skills (perception skills, movements skills, some stealth skills also often appreciated and so is knowledge skills), so 6+Int sp per level is very nice. Also, spells and companion can be easily traded for nice things (like more feats). Actually good (mundane) archery lies somewhere between ranger and fighter form my experience, as both of them have something needed for it and lacking in something else that also important.

[Gwendol]

In that case the only choice is Fighter. They get the feats necessary to excel at combat with multiple weapon types and are the best possible choice for archery 'and' melee combat.

Using core-only tends to gimp you in terms of feat choices however.


'Samurai':

Suggested feats:
Human: Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
1st: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter2: Rapid Shot
3rd: Quick Draw
Fighter4: Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
6th: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Fighter6: Many Shot
Fighter8: Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
9th: Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Fighter10: Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
12th: Greater Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
Fighter12:Greater Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Fighter14: Improved Critical (Longbow)
15th: Combat Reflexes
Fighter16: Improved Initiative
18th: Dodge
Fighter18: Mobility
Fighter20: Shot on the Run

Feel free to re-arrange as you see fit.

I think knight fits the bill better, with a possible 1-2 level fighter dip for the feat starved.

Ranger is good because of skills, but the lack of heavy armor support for the fighting styles is going to be annoying.

[Jeff the Green]

If the SRD counts as core, Psychic Warrior is an excellent choice. It's got the whole mind over body thing, bonus feats, and is a solid choice for melee. If you can get it, the Soulbound Weapon ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is a good choice for this; get a katana that you can put different weapon abilities on on the fly.

[SiuiS]

Well, to be fair - archery IS very demanding on skills (perception skills, movements skills, some stealth skills also often appreciated and so is knowledge skills), so 6+Int sp per level is very nice. Also, spells and companion can be easily traded for nice things (like more feats). Actually good (mundane) archery lies somewhere between ranger and fighter form my experience, as both of them have something needed for it and lacking in something else that also important.

I had parsed ranger as 4/level instea of 6, so that's a good point.
I don't believe many ACFs are available, which is why I haven't brought up monk/barbarian again. If they are, then there are better ways to do this.


I think knight fits the bill better, with a possible 1-2 level fighter dip for the feat starved.

Ranger is good because of skills, but the lack of heavy armor support for the fighting styles is going to be annoying.

Not core, not even Internet understanding of core.


If the SRD counts as core, Psychic Warrior is an excellent choice. It's got the whole mind over body thing, bonus feats, and is a solid choice for melee. If you can get it, the Soulbound Weapon ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) is a good choice for this; get a katana that you can put different weapon abilities on on the fly.

Yes; if you use Internet core, psychic warrior is to samurai as duskblade is to Gish; perfect fit.

[Gwendol]

Not core, not even Internet understanding of core.
Yes; if you use Internet core, psychic warrior is to samurai as duskblade is to Gish; perfect fit.

You should read what the OP says:

(edit: core means all PHBs)

So, in the context of this discussion PHBII is included in "core".

Also, what he's looking for:

mechanically, i want him to be able to cause and withstand injury, and be purely martial.

Bolded for emphasis. Now, what that exactly means wrt Psi-powers I don't know.

[Person_Man]

Wait, so PHBII is in? You could always go with Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). Though again, they generally do better as a small race on a medium mount (there are many different options, even if horse don't exist) or as a "trick" build (Knockback, Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk, Apostle of Peace, etc) which requires non-core material.

Anywho, since you're so limited on sources and you're tilting away from mounted combat or spellcasting, Psychic Warrior would indeed be your best core (online included) option.