What you rather have :Gesalt Monk/Ninja or Swordsage?

[CyberThread]

What you rather have :Gesalt Monk/Ninja or Swordsage?

The monk/ninja counts as a single class, with saves and such merging into best number gets slot.

[Ekul]

Monk//Ninja has an awful lot of overlap. I'm not sure it's even sorta worth it. Give it something with better hit die, better base attack bonus, anything to actually give it any sort of edge on swordsage.

[animewatcha]

depends upon sources available, point-buy or rolled stats, templates if available, etc.

[Nettlekid]

I'm pretty sure Swordsage wins out. Imagine the Gestalt as a Monk with Ninja flavor. You get some invisibility/ethereal stuff, which is neat. Sudden Strike damage to bump up your low-damage Unarmed Strike, fine. That's about it. Whereas Swordsage has a plethora of options in the form of its maneuvers. It can do stuff that Monks and Ninjas only dream of. And it has better PrC possibilities. So yeah, I go Swordsage.

[Cranthis]

Swordsage out-ninja's ninja. And outmonks monk.

[geonova]

swordsage ftw

[DarkSonic1337]

Swordsage'd

[Khatoblepas]

I think I would choose Swordsage over even Monk//Rokugan Ninja.

Really, when it comes to it, having loads of cool abilities and being versatile is what Swordsage does best. The Monk and Ninja's abilities are like Swordsage watered down and restricted to once per week or something ridiculous.

[Aegis013]

Depends on some things such as PrCing rules in use at the table for gestalt, multiclass options, etc.

If it's just Monk 20//Ninja 20 vs. Swordsage 20? Swordsage, please.

[IronFist]

I think I would choose Swordsage over even Monk//Rokugan Ninja.

I think a Monk//Rokugan Ninja would have better numbers than a Swordsage overall. Less tricks, but more reliable.

[DarkSonic1337]

I think a Monk//Rokugan Ninja would have better numbers than a Swordsage overall. Less tricks, but more reliable.

Better than Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still?

[Gemini476]

...It might be decent if you grab a whole bunch of ACFs for the Monk. What's the one that gives you invisibility 1/3 rounds?

The Swordsage would probably still be better, though.

[TuggyNE]

...It might be decent if you grab a whole bunch of ACFs for the Monk. What's the one that gives you invisibility 1/3 rounds?

The aptly named Invisible Fist, methinks.

[Gnaeus]

Qinggong Hungry Ghost Monk// Pathfinder Ninja.
Full sneak attack, and every time you drop an enemy, you recover Ki. Your first 3 ninja tricks will be Weapon Finesse (to reduce MAD), Adder Strike to improve unarmed damage, and Weapon focus (unarmed) to increase chance to hit.

What?

[IronFist]

Better than Raging Mongoose+Time Stands Still?

That's just a once-per-encounter nova.

[limejuicepowder]

That's just a once-per-encounter nova.

Every other round, actually. The adaptive style feat, which any character making extensive use of swordsage levels is going to want, lets them get back all maneuvers for a full-round action. And also...being able to nova that hard every encounter is pretty awesome. Even if they had no way to get it back it would still be very strong.

[Greenish]

Qinggong Hungry Ghost Monk// Pathfinder Ninja.
Full sneak attack, and every time you drop an enemy, you recover Ki. Your first 3 ninja tricks will be Weapon Finesse (to reduce MAD), Adder Strike to improve unarmed damage, and Weapon focus (unarmed) to increase chance to hit.

What?I think I'd still rather take the stalker. :smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Every other round, actually. The adaptive style feat, which any character making extensive use of swordsage levels is going to want, lets them get back all maneuvers for a full-round action. And also...being able to nova that hard every encounter is pretty awesome. Even if they had no way to get it back it would still be very strong.

More that with Sudden Recovery.

[Nightraiderx]

Does Ninja/Rokugan Ninja outninja Swordsage?
Probably not but still double SA/Sudden strike progression can lead to some nice abuses of ambush feats.

[IronFist]

Every other round, actually. The adaptive style feat, which any character making extensive use of swordsage levels is going to want, lets them get back all maneuvers for a full-round action. And also...being able to nova that hard every encounter is pretty awesome. Even if they had no way to get it back it would still be very strong.

If you're spending a full-round getting your maneuvers back, the fact that you can do twice as many attacks with your maneuvers is hardly an advantage, isn't it?

I'm not saying it's not strong, you misunderstand. I mean that even with that nova, I believe consistent damage output from rokugan ninja/monk outdoes it. Remember, Rokugan Ninja/Monk has full BAB, full sneak attack and full flurry of blows. Two extra attacks at full bab with increased base damage is nothing to sneeze at.

[Rebel7284]

Damage wise, Monk/Ninja likely comes out on top.

As far as flexibility? Swordsage all the way.

[animewatcha]

Since we are bringing in pathfinder versus rokugan versus hong kong phooey campaign setting versions of the monk and ninja, I do believe that the OP does indeed need to state such things as sources allowed, way beginning stats are determined, etc.

[Snowbluff]

Wanting to do a bunch of attacks? Win init.

Round 1: Sudden Leap, Avalanche of Blades ( target is flat footed).
Round 2: TTS, Sudden recovery.
Round 3: TTS again.

I wonder at what attack value Avalanche is better than TTS.

[IronFist]

Swordsage

BAB 15, 3 attacks
2d6 sneak attack
base damage 1d4 (dagger) to 2d6 (superior unarmed strike, spending a feat)


Rokugan Ninja//Monk

BAB 20, 6 attacks
9d6 sneak attack
base damage 2d10 (unarmed strike) or 4d8 (improved natural attack, spending a feat or getting it from an item)


By default, Ninja//Monk gets twice as many attacks as a Swordsage. Base damage is more than twice as high. Not even counting sneak attack and accuracy (both favor the RokuMonk), all other things being equal, RokuMonk gets around 4x more damage.
Swordsage does a lot of interesting stuff and might get a bit above the RokuMonk's damage potential with a nova, but it can't do that every round.
No one is saying Swordsage is more versatile, but a gestalt of Rokugan Ninja and Monk far outdoes it when it comes to pure damage dealing (Speed is also a lot higher, considering Rokugan Ninja also adds Speed).

[Khatoblepas]

Swordsage does a lot of interesting stuff and might get a bit above the RokuMonk's damage potential with a nova, but it can't do that every round.
No one is saying Swordsage is more versatile, but a gestalt of Rokugan Ninja and Monk far outdoes it when it comes to pure damage dealing (Speed is also a lot higher, considering Rokugan Ninja also adds Speed).

The thread isn't about which is more powerful, it's about which you'd prefer to play. Tome of Battle stuff has never been about getting the highest numbers, but about having the most options. Sure a Swordsage can spike damage one round, but it's not their only trick. They have an entire toolbox of tricks.

Sure, an Invisible Fist Martial Monk//Rokugan Ninja has numbers on it's side for it's trick, but it only really has one trick. Same deal with Barbarian/Fighter and Warblades.

[JonU]

Swordsage

BAB 15, 3 attacks
2d6 sneak attack
base damage 1d4 (dagger) to 2d6 (superior unarmed strike, spending a feat)


Rokugan Ninja//Monk

BAB 20, 6 attacks
9d6 sneak attack
base damage 2d10 (unarmed strike) or 4d8 (improved natural attack, spending a feat or getting it from an item)


By default, Ninja//Monk gets twice as many attacks as a Swordsage. Base damage is more than twice as high. Not even counting sneak attack and accuracy (both favor the RokuMonk), all other things being equal, RokuMonk gets around 4x more damage.
Swordsage does a lot of interesting stuff and might get a bit above the RokuMonk's damage potential with a nova, but it can't do that every round.
No one is saying Swordsage is more versatile, but a gestalt of Rokugan Ninja and Monk far outdoes it when it comes to pure damage dealing (Speed is also a lot higher, considering Rokugan Ninja also adds Speed).
If your only counting standard attacks, I'm pretty sure that it's written somewhere that you only get 4 attacks max (not counting any special attacks such as Flurry of Blows and what not). I could be wrong though (and probably am).

[Greenish]

If your only counting standard attacks, I'm pretty sure that it's written somewhere that you only get 4 attacks max (not counting any special attacks such as Flurry of Blows and what not). I could be wrong though (and probably am).He is counting flurry, though.

[CyberThread]

They also have skill points, so plenty of interactions.

[GreenETC]

Numbers
As good as that is, Swordsage does get in-class abilities to both Fly and have Blindsense, as well as having tons of extra tricks up their sleeves ranging from stat damage to stunning to standard action attacks. Despite the overall reliability of the Monk//Rokugan Ninja, most people would want to play a Swordsage because it has so much more options, and allows you to actually change tactics in case you come across a Construct or something.

[S_Grey]

It's a sad day when my favorite character of late was a monk7/ninja11 and to have her classes regarded as obsolete by so many.

You were still the biggest fish in your pond, Lye.

[Gnaeus]

As good as that is, Swordsage does get in-class abilities to both Fly and have Blindsense, as well as having tons of extra tricks up their sleeves ranging from stat damage to stunning to standard action attacks. Despite the overall reliability of the Monk//Rokugan Ninja, most people would want to play a Swordsage because it has so much more options, and allows you to actually change tactics in case you come across a Construct or something.

Qinggong Monk has most of the same options as spell likes, and PF ninja gets a lot more as tricks or greater tricks. All on a better chassis. And they have some abilities, like Shadow Walk for overland travel, that I don't think the swordsage can duplicate.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, but Swordsages aren't MAD. You don't have to call yourself a monk. Finally, you don't have to play an 'Asian' class. :smalltongue:

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, but Swordsages aren't MAD. You don't have to call yourself a monk. Finally, you don't have to play an 'Asian' class. :smalltongue:

Swordsage is just as MAD as the Monk//Ninja. Maybe moreso.
Str: Swordsage needs this for to hit and damage. Monk//Ninja uses a ninja trick to duplicate a rogue trick to get free weapon finesse. Monk//Ninja derives most damage from sneak attack and poison. Swordsage needs more.

Dex: Swordsage needs this for skills, AC and reflex saves. Monk//Ninja needs it for the same things, +to hit. Monk//Ninja needs slightly more.

Con: Same HP. Swordsage also needs it for concentration checks and Fort saves (worse fort save progression). Swordsage needs more.

Int: Something of a dump stat either way. But Monk//Ninja has 8 skill points instead of 6, so if you plan to really skillmonkey, Swordsage needs more.

Wis: Monk//Ninja needs for Ki Pool. Swordsage needs for Damage on strikes. Both need it for AC, Will saves, some skills. Pretty much a draw.

Cha: Monk//Ninja will choose to base Ki pool on Wis, so this is a dump stat for both.

I think Swordsage is more MAD than Qinggong Monk//PF Ninja.

[Snowbluff]

That breakdown is both factually incorrect on some accounts and rather biased as well. *slow clap*

[Terazul]

Seriously.

Monk//Ninja derives most damage from sneak attack and poison. Swordsage needs more.

Yeah, cuz it's not like Swordsages have... I dunno, Strikes? Or heck, maneuvers in general? :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

Seriously.


Yeah, cuz it's not like Swordsages have... I dunno, Strikes? Or heck, maneuvers in general? :smallamused: /)

Do you just want to start a thread about something more interesting?

[Gnaeus]

That breakdown is both factually incorrect on some accounts and rather biased as well. *slow clap*

Your statement that swordsages were less mad was factually incorrect and rather biased. Since you didn't actually refute anything I said, I suspect you can't.



Yeah, cuz it's not like Swordsages have... I dunno, Strikes? Or heck, maneuvers in general? :smallamused:

And if your strike doesn't hit, your damage becomes 0. Aww.

[DarkSonic1337]

Weapon Finesse->Shadow Blade removes the need for str on swordsage entirely for the TWF route. I'll admit that two feats hurts the swordsage on this front. Dex to damage is a nice perk that's actually kinda hard to get though (on the offhand too no less).

Swordsage isn't really the skill monkey type. The class skills simply aren't supportive of that. Really, they're just gonna put ranks in concentration, listen, maybe tumble and whatever skills the schools they chose to focus in key off of. So no, they don't need more int

So the TWF sword sage needs Dex, Con, and Wis. So they have the same neccesary stats as your monk gestalt.


Just saying.

[Terazul]

And if your strike doesn't hit, your damage becomes 0. Aww.

...and if things are immune to sudden strike/sneak attack (as they frequently can be), your damage drops off woefully as the Monk//Ninja. Or if you lose the assumption that they're getting to full-attack flurry every round (and not miss any of them!). But really I don't think "you might miss with your attack" is a valid claim one class is more MAD than another, given so can the Monk//Ninja.

The main point was the reasoning is I don't see how saying one class gets most of it's damage from two things that opponents are usually immune to or have many ways of negating (poison/sneak attack), makes it less MAD compared to someone with access strikes in general. And access to Shadow Blade.

[Nightraiderx]

Or if you go the two handed weapon route , you don't need dex because you can instead pump your str/wisdom for the bonus to AC in light armor

[IronFist]

...and if things are immune to sudden strike/sneak attack (as they frequently can be), your damage drops off woefully as the Monk//Ninja.
I'm pretty sure he was talking about Pathfinder.

[bekeleven]

...and if things are immune to sudden strike/sneak attack (as they frequently can be), your damage drops off woefully as the Monk//Ninja. Or if you lose the assumption that they're getting to full-attack flurry every round (and not miss any of them!). But really I don't think "you might miss with your attack" is a valid claim one class is more MAD than another, given so can the Monk//Ninja.

The main point was the reasoning is I don't see how saying one class gets most of it's damage from two things that opponents are usually immune to or have many ways of negating (poison/sneak attack), makes it less MAD compared to someone with access strikes in general. And access to Shadow Blade.

Because whether your high damage stuff works against specific enemies doesn't really change your desired ability spread that much?

The point is that M//N trivially doesn't need strength to hit, and if you're building one, then you're not going to build a 2HF power attacker. Whether a power attacker build is more effective isn't on the table in this instance.

[Terazul]

Because whether your high damage stuff works against specific enemies doesn't really change your desired ability spread that much?

The point is that M//N trivially doesn't need strength to hit, and if you're building one, then you're not going to build a 2HF power attacker. Whether a power attacker build is more effective isn't on the table in this instance.
I didn't say anything about 2HF Power Attack. SS can just as trivially not need STR to hit or for damage, and can have most of it's damage come from strikes. So I don't see how it's more dependent on STR than the M//N is, is what I'm saying (As was implied in the discussion I am having).

[Nightraiderx]

TOB has nice feats and manuevers to utilize to two-weapon playing style that is at least alot closer to damage output than what 2-h fighting can do and swordsage has the flexibility to do either build with it's number/type of manuevers

[John Longarrow]

For myself, the biggest advantage I see to Sword Sage over the Gestalt class is how initiator levels work. I can have 14 levels in Rogue then toss a level of Sword Sage on and get 4th level maneuvers. As I have a preference for multi-classing this is a major advantage to me, especially if the one level dip is to add Dex to Damage and some neat tricks to a Crusader build.

Since the original poster asked what would we rather have, I think I've shown why I'd go SS. If I just wanted to take out enemies, I'd drop 4 levels in Sorcerer and grab Ray of Stupidity. :smallcool:

[Gemini476]

... Why is everyone assuming Pathfinder for the Ninja//Monk? Is it just because the Monk//CS Ninja has less things?

Monk//OA Ninja looks cool, though.

[Greenish]

... Why is everyone assuming Pathfinder for the Ninja//Monk?Not assuming. Many are suggesting it as a closer match for a swordsage (because yes, PF monk is better than 3.5, and has it's share of good ACFs).

[IronFist]

... Why is everyone assuming Pathfinder for the Ninja//Monk? Is it just because the Monk//CS Ninja has less things?

Monk//OA Ninja looks cool, though.

Do you mean Rokugan Ninja? If so, I agree.
The ninja in OA is a prc, though.

[Snowbluff]

And access to Shadow Blade.

They can pick up weapon finesse for the Shadow Blade weapons as well, like the spiked chain. This covers Strength, but if their stats are good Shadow Blade stacks with the base Str weapons normally get. Swordsages get an init bonus without having any in dex.

Wis is not a necessary stat for Swordsages. At all. They get some nice bonuses, but it is by no means needed for the class to run. They get to wear armor, which is a huge boon at lower levels.

Due to Diamond Mind, Swordsages get more out of Con. A maneuver from this school can cover a weak save, if needed.

[Grayson01]

Are we allowing the Feat that allows some monk and ninja levels to stack for cerrtain features to still stack for the Gesalt? Cause then I might go Monk/ CA Ninja