Warmage Finds a Spellbook

[20yrslater]

If a warmage finds a spellbook with two arcane spells that are not on the warmage list. Is he able to use the spell in the book?

Would it be UMD or treat as a scroll, or not at all?

[Xuldarinar]

I'd say the warmage wouldn't be able to use the spell book. Not because of the presence of the spells, but because warmages do not use spellbooks.

Now, lets say a wizard finds a spell book that contains some cleric spells as well as wizard spells. They could use the spellbook, but they couldn't use the cleric spells.

[Gemini476]

If a warmage finds a spellbook with two arcane spells that are not on the warmage list. Is he able to use the spell in the book?

Would it be UMD or treat as a scroll, or not at all?

If a sorcerer finds a spellbook with two arcane spells that are not on the sorcerer list. Is he able to use the spell in the book?

Would it be UMD or treat as a scroll, or not at all?

Yeeeaaaah.

[MrNobody]

Since Warmage is a spontaneous caster he won't get any benefit from reading a spellbook: he can't learn new spells from it and, since a spellbook lack of the magic power needed, he can't use it as a scroll.

However, he can read it and learn that a particular spell exists, studying and researching on his own for a version of that spell fit for his way of casting. Then he can use his "Advanced Learning" class feature (or the Eclectic Learnig variant on PH2) to add that particular spell to his list.

[Crake]

Technically there's no rules allowing a spellbook's spells to be used as scrolls. However if your DM were to houserule that you can use them as scrolls (a common houserule), if the spell is not on the warmage list, then yes, it would be a UMD check as if it were a scroll to try and cast the spell.

[Snowbluff]

Hm... If he had Magical Trainig and Versatile Spellcaster, he may make something of it.

[SethoMarkus]

However, he can read it and learn that a particular spell exists, studying and researching on his own for a version of that spell fit for his way of casting. Then he can use his "Advanced Learning" class feature (or the Eclectic Learnig variant on PH2) to add that particular spell to his list.

This.

I'd even say that if he had Read Magic active somehow, or succeeded on a Spellcraft check that the Warmage wouldn't have any difficulties in reverse-engineering a spell from the spellbook for use with his Advanced Learning class feature.

Of course, I am sure there are several feats or other tricks that would allow a Warmage to make use of a spellbook, but not an out-of-the-box Warmage.

[Chronos]

Technically there's no rules allowing a spellbook's spells to be used as scrolls. However if your DM were to houserule that you can use them as scrolls (a common houserule), if the spell is not on the warmage list, then yes, it would be a UMD check as if it were a scroll to try and cast the spell.That's more than just a "technically", and allowing that would be broken. For starters, high-level spells cost a lot less in spellbooks than they do as scrolls. And that's not even getting into the issue of expensive material or XP components.

[Deophaun]

However, he can read it and learn that a particular spell exists, studying and researching on his own for a version of that spell fit for his way of casting. Then he can use his "Advanced Learning" class feature (or the Eclectic Learnig variant on PH2) to add that particular spell to his list.
If he can research it, he doesn't need to use Advanced Learning to acquire it (and Advanced Learning doesn't even require finding a copy of a spell or knowing it already exists in order to add it to the list, so the suggestion above is pure fluff). Warmages don't have a Spells Known cap by RAW like Sorcerers or Bards do, though apparently there are suggestions that fixed-list casters need to trade out spells on their list when researching new ones (I say apparently because I haven't actually found such caveats).

[SethoMarkus]

If he can research it, he doesn't need to use Advanced Learning to acquire it (and Advanced Learning doesn't even require finding a copy of a spell or knowing it already exists in order to add it to the list, so the suggestion above is pure fluff). Warmages don't have a Spells Known cap by RAW like Sorcerers or Bards do, though apparently there are suggestions that fixed-list casters need to trade out spells on their list when researching new ones (I say apparently because I haven't actually found such caveats).

I'm not sure of the RAW, and I don't have any books on hand at the moment to check, but I believe the Warmage entry makes it explicit that they only know the spells on their spell list and cannot learn more through personal research, only through Advanced Learning class feature. It has to do with the fluff for the class, and how they know all their spells at level 1 but lack the experience with manifesting magical energies to actually cast them.

[Deophaun]

I believe the Warmage entry makes it explicit that they only know the spells on their spell list and cannot learn more through personal research, only through Advanced Learning class feature. It has to do with the fluff for the class, and how they know all their spells at level 1 but lack the experience with manifesting magical energies to actually cast them.
It's not explicit. It talks about Warmages learning "through action rather than study," which you can take as you will, but then under Advanced Learning it says:

a warmage can add a new spell to his list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation.
So the fluff in the fluff section conflicts with the fluff in the crunch section. But the fact is Advanced Learning does work through study and experimentation, which sounds like the definition of "research" to me.

[SethoMarkus]

It's not explicit. It talks about Warmages learning "through action rather than study," which you can take as you will, but then under Advanced Learning it says:

Ah, that does sound familiar, so I suppose it didn't directly say what I thought.


So the fluff in the fluff section conflicts with the fluff in the crunch section. But the fact is Advanced Learning does work through study and experimentation, which sounds like the definition of "research" to me.

That is the point I was making, except with the understanding of Advanced Learning taking the place of research/experimentation as a wizard does, rather than in addition to it. (That Advanced Learning is the only way to gain additional spells as a Warmage.)

I suppose this does come up to RAI and interpretation more than RAW, then.

EDIT

A buddy pulled this up for me from Complete Arcane. The RAW doesn't state one way or the other whether Warmage can learn spells not on the Warmage spell list outside of Advanced Learning, but I would interpret the RAI as meaning Advanced Learning is the only way a Warmage can learn non-Warmage spells (and they must be Evocation).


When a warmage gains access to a
new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for
that level listed on the warmage’s spell list. Essentially, his
spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also
have the option of adding to their existing spell list through
their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see
below). See page 90 for the warmage’s spell list.

[Deophaun]

That is the point I was making, except with the understanding of Advanced Learning taking the place of research/experimentation as a wizard does, rather than in addition to it. (That Advanced Learning is the only way to gain additional spells as a Warmage.)
Yeah, our interpretations of this are 180 apart. As I don't read any exclusivity in this. Further, I also read it as providing a pre-approved list for formal research if a character chooses to do so (a character may, by default, research Warmage versions of any and all Wizard evocation spells, because by RAW those are already valid spells for a Warmage to have).

I suppose this does come up to RAI and interpretation more than RAW, then.
RAI is tricky here, as the fluff in that section says a lot of things that are just... wrong, such as Warmages knowing fewer spells than Sorcerers. It's like the person who wrote the class description and the person who designed the class weren't on speaking terms.

EDIT:

A buddy pulled this up for me from Complete Arcane. The RAW doesn't state one way or the other whether Warmage can learn spells not on the Warmage spell list outside of Advanced Learning,
I have to interrupt here. Research is not learning spells not on your list. Research is putting spells on your list.

but I would interpret the RAI as meaning Advanced Learning is the only way a Warmage can learn non-Warmage spells (and they must be Evocation).
Again, there's no exclusivity in the language, so I cannot concur.

EDIT:

Additionally, there's this from the DMG:

A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell.
So you would need something that specifically says Warmages cannot research spells.

[SethoMarkus]

Yeah, our interpretations of this are 180 apart. As I don't read any exclusivity in this. Further, I also read it as providing a pre-approved list for formal research if a character chooses to do so (a character may, by default, research Warmage versions of any and all Wizard evocation spells, because by RAW those are already valid spells for a Warmage to have).

RAI is tricky here, as the fluff in that section says a lot of things that are just... wrong, such as Warmages knowing fewer spells than Sorcerers. It's like the person who wrote the class description and the person who designed the class weren't on speaking terms.

EDIT:

I have to interrupt here. Research is not learning spells not on your list. Research is putting spells on your list.

Again, there's no exclusivity in the language, so I cannot concur.

EDIT:

Additionally, there's this from the DMG:

So you would need something that specifically says Warmages cannot research spells.

Yeah, at this point I was already saying that there's no RAW or hard evidence one way or the other, so I could agree with either ruling in a game (as long as I was informed ahead of time). My RAI and your RAI are different, and I'm ok with that. At first I thought there was a specific statement, but you pointed out already that there wasn't. Though, I do hope we can both agree that both interpretations are logical, and only differ by personal preference.

[Chronos]

Personally, I would say that a Warmage could create an entirely new spell through research, but would have to use his Advanced Learning feature to make use of it (subject to all the usual restrictions on Advanced Learning, based on level and school).

[Deophaun]

Though, I do hope we can both agree that both interpretations are logical, and only differ by personal preference.
I agree.

Now when I look at Sorcerers and Bards using runestaffs and gnome Beguilers going into Shadowcraft Mage, as well as various other tricks to cast all the spells, it's hard for me to find a balance reason why, seeing as fixed-list casters already are limited to the less campaign-breaking schools, to disallow characters from spending weeks at a time to add a single spell to their lists.

[Tvtyrant]

If I was going to house-rule spell books as scrolls, they would be "rune scrolls" and make you expend the appropriate slot as well as the scroll burning up.

[PraxisVetli]

Perhaps a conglomerate of the Ideas here.
Allow the Warmage to now know of the spell(s) in question, but they do not know the spell enough to cast it. Saying that a Warmage must expend his Advanced Learning to make use of a spell they have personally created seems harsh, there are already expenses invololved in the creation of Spells. So allow the Warmage to read and study this new magic, then through proper spell-creation rulings, create a different, more Warmage-applicable spell with identical effect, to their spell list. While this does overrule their already existant class feature, I would rule that since they are putting the time and coin and xp into the creation, it should be am acceptable, if roundabout method.

[PraxisVetli]

If I was going to house-rule spell books as scrolls, they would be "rune scrolls" and make you expend the appropriate slot as well as the scroll burning up.

I enjoy this concept of rune-scrolls.