[3.5] How to deal with min-maxed players

[Chamassa]

Hello all!

I'm a D&D 3.5 player, have played for several years now, who since a few months is DM'ing his first campaign after our last DM moved/campaign ended.
When i set out the campaign, i made one important mistake: I let the players start at 6th level. This is primarily a mistake, because it did not give me enough time to learn how to deal with higher level encounters properly. This fact, in combination with the way the players are building their character causes a lot of issues:

- Min-maxed characters have much greater damage output then expected on their level (9), trivializing almost any encounter. I killed off the real glass cannon already (Barbarian with hardly any health/ac)

At the moment we have a warforged monk who (even after banning greater mighty wallop) easily does 12d8 or more in a round, and trips about anything that is smaller then him.
We also have a Cleric, who PrC'ed into Ordained Champion, that seems to be able to deal with several encounters a day simply summoning undead (so the party hardly gets hit at all) and smites everything that moves. He pretty much hits over 30 damage per attack, with double damage a few times a day, without even bothering with AC.

My Problem is that these 2, in combinations with the rest of the party, beat any CR 10/11 encounter with ease, the gap between their power and the CR of intended encounters becoming only greater with time and treasure.
My feeling is that we are rapidly approaching a point where encounters end up being giant save or die rolls, with me having to use high level monsters to even make the combat last more then two rounds, while these monsters either hit them and 2-shot a PC, or miss and they are lucky once more.

TL;DR: How do i deal with a increasingly overpowered party without ending up in a situation that is a simple binary question (Do i roll enough to hit AC, you die)?

[Aegis013]

One way of doing this is giving monsters alternate ways of attacking/defending than simply attacking or Save-or-Lose/Die'ing the enemies or having AC.

Using things tactical spells such as Wall of X or other battlefield control spells to halt the minions while the enemy tries to slowly bring the down the party's hp with AoE attacks that still do damage on a successful save. Or using charm style tactics to try to confuse some of the party into being less effective.

On defenses, maybe using miss chances so that the party can't just rely purely on high attack chances, or having high damage reduction, resistance to elemental damage, or fast healing.

There are a lot of things like this, but as a new DM, it can be difficult to grasp what it too strong and what is necessary to make things a challenge, so I empathize with your situation.

[Morph Bark]

Don't play stronger, play smarter. Use ambushes and guerilla tactics. Put multiple encounters in a day, so that after a few of them they'll have less of their spells and daily abilities.

Do they have anything that bypasses DR? If not, use monsters that have that, especially if most of their damage comes from having multiple attacks. The monk trips everything that is smaller than him? Throw only same-size and larger creatures at him. Mostly have melee characters? Use ranged encounters, possibly some flying ones.

What other characters are in the party? What did the Barbarian player start playing after his untimely death?

[herrhauptmann]

Are they grossly overpowered in respect to the rest of the party? If so, ask them to tone it down a notch so that the enemies that challenge them don't crush the others.

Are they in the middle of a campaign where one person is their ultimate enemy, perhaps that one person has noticed them enough to start sending out groups specifically to defeat them. Because it sounds like you're specifically trying to beat these players instead of have a game with them.


Beyond that, there's more than one kind of CR 10/11 encounter.
You can hit them with 1 CR 11 creature or two CR 10's to make an 11.

But how about a half dozen CR 9's, with some CR 4 mooks in the frontline? This would be a CR 11, maybe 12. But a drastically different fight. The mooks prevent the awesome charges against your heavier fighters by getting in the way. After the warforged uses his charge on them, the mooks hit, then get out of the way so the big guys can hit (or big guys reach over top of them).

If the cleric summons undead, hit them with a Radiant Servant of Pelor. BAM! No more undead.

[Der_DWSage]

Always fun dealing with that kind of party, no? I can think of a few ways to work this out, however-and even if it doesn't shake them up, it'll at least make it more interesting. Keep in mind, I'm assuming there's more than two characters in this party with most of this writing-otherwise, I'd tone it down a tad.

1)Try and use some Curses from flying opponents. Part of the big issue seems to be the fact that your opponents are landbound targets, the exact type that damage-dealers love to chew up and spit out. Curses don't just have to be '-6 to a stat' either. Go for something interesting-like forbidding the Monk from touching biological beings until the curse is broken. Get them to think outside the box.

2)You mentioned Undead. A lot of Undead. How about throwing some folks with Control Undead at the Cleric, or Rebuke Undead, or even just plain ol' Turn Undead? Turn their strength into their weakness.

3)How about some flat Miss Chance for that Monk? 12d6 is a lot, but it doesn't matter as much if he's only got a 50% chance to hit. Various ways to do this, from complete darkness, to ghostly apparitions, to blinding him...get creative. Even a simple Mirror Image could work.

4)As weak as it can be, look into some ranged combat. Harpies with class levels, so they can fly and shoot. Raptorans with levels in Ranger, and Favored Enemy(Munchkin). Don't kill them, but don't make it easy, either.

5)How about targetting that Cleric's low reflex save with Shivering Touch? Shut him down before combat starts, and see how well the party does without his buffer of Undead.

6)Even with the Monk's high saves, try hitting him where it hurts-no save, just suck spells. Irresistible Dance tends to be a good one for this, as do the Power Word spells and Blasphemy/Holy Word/Whatever the Chaos thing is.

And more importantly than anything else...

Monk and Cleric seem to be hogging the spotlight here. Try bringing the rest of the party up, rather than targetting those two. Give them custom magic weapons, spell-like abilities, something flavorful and fun. Then ratchet up the other encounters to at least CR 11, if not higher, and gauge how much fun everyone has when they feel everyone is contributing.

[Chamassa]

What other characters are in the party? What did the Barbarian player start playing after his untimely death?

An Assassin and a heavy utility Wizard


...
Are they in the middle of a campaign where one person is their ultimate enemy, perhaps that one person has noticed them enough to start sending out groups specifically to defeat them. Because it sounds like you're specifically trying to beat these players instead of have a game with them.
...

Im trying to challenge them, not make it to easy. Thanks for the advice though, mixing it up might be a good change.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What types of encounters are you putting them up against, a bunch of HP/AC/attack numbers that can't do anything but walk forward and swing until someone dies? Mix it up, use a combination of melee and ranged opponents, give them spells, crowd controls, debuffs, dispels, etc.

If the PCs are using flaws, always give every opponent two additional feats and presume they all have Love of Nature and Insomnia.

A Monk is giving you trouble, a Monk! Just don't let him start his round within 5 ft. of threatening any opponents and he's only going to get one attack. Is he large size, and how is he large size? Enlarge Person only works on Humanoids, not constructs like a Warforged. Try mixing in opponents who can't be tripped to go fight him while everything else avoids him, opponents like (legendary) snakes, incorporeal foes, creatures with multiple legs like the crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a), etc.

A Cleric can be a strong character, but it really depends on how he's accomplishing it. How is he avoiding the opponents' AC, using Wraithstrike or Ice Axe or just charging with Shock Trooper? He could only get Wraithstrike from the Spell domain which neither of the deities that he can get into Ordained Champion with will grant him. Ice Axe doesn't get bonus damage from Strength or Power Attack. Shock Trooper is easy to counter with difficult terrain. Summoned minions, especially the typical Troll Skeletons and Ogre Zombies of Summon Undead, are easily dealt with via low-level spells like Web and Command Undead. The latter of those is especially nice when you tell his former minion to grab him, it uses its long reach to grapple him without him making an AoO, and now he's basically out of the fight for a while. Web can stop a whole party, especially the types of characters they have. Just remember that Persistent Spell doesn't work with touch-range spells like Freedom of Movement.

Here are some encounters that should be able to challenge them:

Drider and Umber Hulks (I've recommended variants of this encounter a few times before.)
One Drider with +2 Aberration HD and two levels in Abjurant Champion with the elite array at CR 9, plus two Umber Hulks. Obviously underground, there's a long, 20 ft. wide hallway that opens up into the room they're occupying. The hallway is lit but the room is not, it's impossible to see into the room even with darkvision if there is any illumination between the viewer and the room. They'll see the PCs coming from a mile away and get the drop on them. The hallway is littered with rubble and the floor is uneven, making it impossible to charge.

The above Drider casts as a Sorcerer 8, spells known as follows: 8/5/3/2/1
0—Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, whatever; 1—Shield, Protection from Law, Wall of Smoke, Magic Missile, Power Word: Pain; 2—Kelgore's Grave Mist, Web, Glitterdust; 3—Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud; 4—Thunderlance.
Drider ability scores: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 22
Drider's Feats: Combat Casting, Practiced Spellcaster, Combat Reflexes, Fell Frighten Spell (or Fell Drain Spell if you want to kill everyone). Add Extend Spell and Improved Initiative if the PCs are using flaws.
Drider Spells/day (caster level 10, DC 16 + spell level): 6/8/8/6/4
Treasure/Gear: Runestaff containing Dispel Magic 1/day, Death Armor 3/day, and Mage Armor 3/day (worth 2400 gp), Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, both on the Drider; two Mask of Sweet Air, one on each Umber Hulk; 4800 gp worth of coins, gems, and art.
Umber Hulk Feats: Replace Toughness with Ability Focus: Confusing Gaze, the DC is now 17. Add Improved Toughness and Combat Reflexes if PCs are using flaws.

Tactics: As soon as they notice the PCs coming down the hall the Drider casts Mage Armor and Protection from Law on himself and each Umber Hulk. He also buffs himself with Shield, Thunderlance, Detect Magic, and Lesser Rod of Extended Fell Frighten (or Fell Drain) Death Armor. -7 1st, -2 4th level spell slots.

Surprise Round: Once the front opponents are within 30 ft. of the room, cast Web at the back of the opponents, catching as many as possible and blocking their retreat.The Umber Hulks move forward into view, opponents are subject to their gaze attack. They're shoulder to shoulder blocking the hallway, at least 15 ft. from any opponents. The Drider is behind the Umber Hulks, he threatens out to 20 ft. with the Thunderlance so he threatens the same space as the Umber Hulks.

First Round: Umber Hulks (full) attack anyone in reach or ready an action to hit anyone who comes into reach. Drider casts Lesser Rod of Extended Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist 20 ft. from the edge of the umber hulks' space, so it extends 40 ft. out in front of the umber hulks. Anyone damaged by the mist is Shaken for 1 minute, each time they're damaged causing an escalating fear effect (http://web.archive.org/web/20120520034053/http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0).

Second Round: Umber Hulks (full) attack anyone in reach or ready an action to hit anyone who comes into reach. Drider casts Fell Frighten Magic Missile directing each missile to strike a different opponent if there are five or more. Each opponent damaged becomes Shaken, or gets their existing fear effect escalated. If they're still in the mist and were already shaken they're Panicked and if they get stuck in the web and can't get out they cower.

Third Round: Umber Hulks do the same thing. Drider uses Fell Frighten Magic Missile if multiple opponents are still not Panicked, or (Extended, Fell Drain) Power Word Pain on each opponent preferring targets with spell component pouches, then with holy symbols, then any with light or no armor, then the rest. He'll recast Web if they manage to remove it, or use his Dispel Magic spell-like ability or spell to target a buffed opponent or to get rid of chaotic aligned summoned creatures.

Once everyone is Panicked or Confused one Umber Hulk will move back and the Drider will start spamming Lightning Bolt every round. Once Kelgore's Grave Mist is gone the Drider will spam bite a cowering opponents while the umber hulks move in and full attack the rest. Note that Protection from Law makes it so summoned creatures which are not chaotic aligned are incapable of attacking any of them with natural weapons.

No-Melee-Unless-You-Fly
The PCs have to go across a very sturdy, well maintained rope bridge over a vast chasm in their underground adventure. It still swings a bit and they can't go too fast. As they're making their way across three Gauth Beholders dart out of recesses in the ceiling and attack them.

Note that a gaze attack can be manually activated with a standard action, and the target must save vs the gaze even if they're not looking or already looked and made the save that round. Note that stun causes you to drop anything you're holding, which can be bad on a rope bridge (I'd say any light weapon falls through 75%, one-handed weapon or light shield/crossbow falls through 50%, and two-handed weapon or heavy shield/crossbow falls through 25%). If the PCs are using flaws give them Ability Focus: Stunning Gaze and Ability Focus: Eye Rays, so everything is a DC 16.

Tactics: Gauths dart out and get a surprise round, they make no noise but if the PCs have light sources anyone with low-light vision gets a Spot check, if no light sources anyone with Darkvision gets a Spot check, to act in the surprise round. They standard-action target their gaze on anyone who didn't get stunned by looking. Preferred targets are anyone with a spell component pouch, then anyone with a bow or net or harpoon, then anyone with any other ranged weapons. Note they don't all go at once, so if the first tries to stun someone with a spell component pouch and they make the save, the next one tries on that same target.

Two eye rays can target a given 90 degree arc, so they can use two eyes against the front half of the party and two against the back half. There doesn't need to be any consistency on which particular eye ray targets what area, only that any two per gauth targets a given 90 degree arc. All three will use their Sleep ray on someone in heavy armor, their Paralysis ray on someone in light/no armor, Exhaustion on someone with ranged weapons who isn't exhausted or paralyzed, and either Dispel Magic on anyone with spell a component pouch or divine focus or Scorching Ray on the weakest looking target that's not disabled. This is all during the surprise round, gauths fly silently and if the PCs have light sources then there's no chance that they're spotted until they get within the illumination.

First and subsequent rounds: Flyby Attack allows them to (eye rays) move (eye rays) stunning gaze (eye rays) move (eye rays), so the limit of two eye rays per 90 degree arc is a bit irrelevant as those two eyes per arc can change each time they move. They'll all use every eye ray at their disposal every round unless they're prevented from moving. Continue gaze-stunning anyone who's not already stunned, asleep, or paralyzed. Keep dispelling anything magic, summoned creatures are recognizable without Spellcraft ranks. Keep using paralysis and sleep until everyone has failed vs both, then keep using it. They'll all three concentrate their Inflict Moderate Wounds and Scorching Ray on a single unparalyzed awake target until it goes down, then switch to focusing a different unparalyzed awake target.

If one is reduced below half health it will retreat back to its alcove in the ceiling, if a second is reduced to below half health the rest will also retreat. They have about a dozen Cure Light Wounds potions on a ledge in their alcove from adventurers they've killed, they'll use two or three on each gauth that's below half health and then they'll all three come out shooting again two rounds after retreating. Repeat retreat tactics if it comes to it, if they run out of cure potions they'll just not reengage that group.

[herrhauptmann]

Im trying to challenge them, not make it to easy. Thanks for the advice though, mixing it up might be a good change.

I get that, but lines like "I killed off the real glass cannon already (Barbarian with hardly any health/ac)" make it sound like you're gunning for them, not just trying to challenge them.

Also, you've gone through 3 levels with them, how have you not managed to get a feel of their abilities by now? How many sessions has it been?
Are you sure you're calculating XP correctly? (A common mistake, even for experienced DMs)

Anyway, you've got 2 tier 1 characters in your game.
One is doing a good job with minions, the other is utility? So he's buffing the party? Or do you mean the old form of utility, where he hasn't banned any schools of magic?
It's going to be hard to challenge them if they're played to their potential.

[Gwendol]

Ice Axe doesn't get bonus damage from Strength or Power Attack.

Why wouldn't Ice Axe benefit from Power attack? There is nothing in the description of the spell that says that.

To the OP: Mix it up!
Have them fight multiple opponents, suffer ambushes, traps, etc. Use enemies with varying abilities: flying, incorporeal, SLA's, etc. Make sure the cleric and the monk suffer AoO's when approaching enemies! There are plenty of builds/feats effective against chargers, read up on some and get creative!

[OldTrees1]

The trick to design good encounters is to challenge the players' specialties without negating the specialization while also challenging their weaknesses without rendering the character useless.

You have a high damage, combat manuever specialist and a minionmancer specialist.

Strengths:
The monk can be challenged by large brutes. However use multiple brutes rather than 1 heavy brute. This will challenge both the combat maneuver side and the damage side.

The cleric can be challenged by evasive enemies like sneaks that can try to get through the undead to the more important targets. Alternatively you can have a necromancer that struggles for control of the undead while other minions (see brutes above) move through the mess created.

Weakness:
The monk is melee and the cleric is using meatshields. A larger battlefield combined with ranged threats would take advantage of this weakness. Yet the players can adapt. The monk has the speed necessary to move around and the cleric could used the undead as cover in addition to being meatshields.

Finally: Forget CR. You know your players better than Wizards of the Coast does. Balance difficulty and xp accordingly.

[Tvtyrant]

Level 9 means you can throw tons of flying Beholderkin at them. Have a pair of Eye of the Deeps ambush them by using Persistant Images of themselves and when he charges the images hit him with their blinding cones and eye rays. Add a Spectator who is being paid by the Eyes to use its magic-reflecting eye as a defense for them.

[Shining Wrath]

If they have undead on their side, then you have people who turn or banish undead on yours.

If they have a monk throwing out multiple attacks and tripping, you have 3 or 4 CR 7 flesh ghola. He can't trip them, and the DR 5/adamantine will take quite a bit off flurry of blows.

Also, a barbed devil will give that monk fits. He won't like being grappled by someone doing 3d8+9, nor flurrying someone who deals 1d8+6 every time you hit them with your fist.

Silence will slow down the casters.

[animewatcha]

Let's try his angle. What sources are allowed?

[Neverborn]

Some good advice here!

Btw, the Monk can be large a few times a day because the DM was kind enough to let me start with an item that casts Enlarge Construct (same as Enlarge Person, works on Constructs), after we realised i would not be able to use a regular Enlarge item...

I second the idea of creating different/more varied types of encounters... The final one of our last session was a start, but you limited yourself and helped us greatly by having the 4 (or was it 5) Sorcerers be in a confined space where they could not gain the advantage of mobility... Also having them start with some more defensive spells like Mirror Image/Improved Invisibility would have changed that encounter a LOT...

About the other players, the Rogue-Assassin tends to rely on his stealth/spells to get into a good backstab position, and when he does he can match the Monk and Cleric in damage output... The Wizard just buffs everyone, making us more effective... He would also be our best (and only) weapon against some of the strategies proposed here...

@animewatcha: Core Rulebooks, PHB2, Races Books, Complete Books, Eberron Books, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium... Did i miss anything?

[Gnaeus]

- Min-maxed characters have much greater damage output then expected on their level (9), trivializing almost any encounter.

At the moment we have a warforged monk who (even after banning greater mighty wallop) easily does 12d8 or more in a round, and trips about anything that is smaller then him.
We also have a Cleric, who PrC'ed into Ordained Champion, that seems to be able to deal with several encounters a day simply summoning undead (so the party hardly gets hit at all) and smites everything that moves. He pretty much hits over 30 damage per attack, with double damage a few times a day, without even bothering with AC.

My Problem is that these 2, in combinations with the rest of the party, beat any CR 10/11 encounter with ease, the gap between their power and the CR of intended encounters becoming only greater with time and treasure.


12d8 is 54 damage/ round. For a melee character specced for damage, at level 9, that is not great. At all. Similarly, a Melee based cleric probably has a bab of +7, so if both of his attacks hit thats 60 damage. In melee, where the enemies can hit him back. I'm not impressed. And if he swinging his weapon, he is not casting spells, which is where real powah lies.

By comparison, an enlarged barbarian 9 could be Charge Pouncing with +9 bab, +8 Str (+10 raging) and say a +2 weapon. If his feats are Power attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock trooper, his attack would be something like +23/+18 for 3d6 +15 (str) +18 power attack +2 weapon damage = about 45 per hit with a better chance to hit and more or less guaranteed 2 attacks per round. And that isn't even factoring in garbage like what happens if he uses a lance or leap attack, which will double or triple that damage. At 9th level, if your melee guy isn't regularly putting out 100 damage per round on a full attack, he isn't what I would call optimized. At all. I might give the monk a pass if he is a good trip build, I don't really have enough information. But tripping enemies SMALLER than himself does not strike me as impressive.

More than that... If you assume that PCs are of a higher optimization level than monsters, you should reduce the CR by one, or 2 or more in extreme cases. So a Party of level 9s, is able to beat CR 10-1=9 encounters without difficulty. GOOD. The game pretty much assumes that they should be able to do this 4-5 times per day without losing anyone. If they are spending resources, (like by casting spells) that is about right. Their boss fights should be in the CR 13-14 range (before modifying for optimization). It looks to me like a Storm Giant should give them a run for their money, which seems appropriate.

I suggest that you mentally (and when giving out XP) reduce CR for each monster by 1, or alternately replace their junk feats with better ones. Max every monster's HP. That should do it.

[Chamassa]

Some good advice here!

Btw, the Monk can be large a few times a day because the DM was kind enough to let me start with an item that casts Enlarge Construct (same as Enlarge Person, works on Constructs), after we realised i would not be able to use a regular Enlarge item...

I second the idea of creating different/more varied types of encounters... The final one of our last session was a start, but you limited yourself and helped us greatly by having the 4 (or was it 5) Sorcerers be in a confined space where they could not gain the advantage of mobility... Also having them start with some more defensive spells like Mirror Image/Improved Invisibility would have changed that encounter a LOT...

About the other players, the Rogue-Assassin tends to rely on his stealth/spells to get into a good backstab position, and when he does he can match the Monk and Cleric in damage output... The Wizard just buffs everyone, making us more effective... He would also be our best (and only) weapon against some of the strategies proposed here...

@animewatcha: Core Rulebooks, PHB2, Races Books, Complete Books, Eberron Books, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium... Did i miss anything?

I think that is it yes, but basicly everything is up for debate hehe.

@herrhauptmann I guess the wording on that was a bit rough, point is he almost died at least once per session 3 sessions in the a row (as in, unconscious). To much damage, no defensive stats at all. That was really no fun for anyone. I like to play monsters according to their intelligence, so a wyvern attacks either the first or weakest target, where as a dragon won't rush headlong into the party if it can avoid it. I'm also a big fan of non combat encounters and have been trying that. In the 10 or so sessions (either 4 or 10 hours) they earned those levels

Regarding the rest of the advice, thanks a lot. I know (and knew at start) that being the DM with the least d&d experience in group might get though, I guess it is a matter of trying new things. I have been slowly trying, but made mistakes with the few challenging encounters, like putting sorcerrer in a tight space or letting the party bottleneck a large group of trolls fairly easily. I guess it comes down to learning from that, not being afraid to mess up.

[TriForce]

instead of countering optimization with stronger encounters, you could also try a different angle:

focus more on roleplay

optimization is a strange thing, basically, as you discribe it, it means your characters focus on combat a lot. and as long as everyone enjoys themselves, thats fine. however, d&d (and most tabletop rpg's) strenghts lie not in its combat (in my opinion) its the storytelling, problemsolving, and general fun that seperates it from playing diablo on my pc. you could try to go a bit more roleplay heavy and see how your players enjoy it. it might encourage them to make their characters more "natural"

[KillianHawkeye]

Rather than increasing the quality of the monsters, perhaps you could try increasing their quantity?

[Pathagaron]

Rust monster army.

[Neverborn]

12d8 is 54 damage/ round. For a melee character specced for damage, at level 9, that is not great. At all. Similarly, a Melee based cleric probably has a bab of +7, so if both of his attacks hit thats 60 damage. In melee, where the enemies can hit him back. I'm not impressed. And if he swinging his weapon, he is not casting spells, which is where real powah lies.

By comparison, an enlarged barbarian 9 could be Charge Pouncing with +9 bab, +8 Str (+10 raging) and say a +2 weapon. If his feats are Power attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock trooper, his attack would be something like +23/+18 for 3d6 +15 (str) +18 power attack +2 weapon damage = about 45 per hit with a better chance to hit and more or less guaranteed 2 attacks per round. And that isn't even factoring in garbage like what happens if he uses a lance or leap attack, which will double or triple that damage. At 9th level, if your melee guy isn't regularly putting out 100 damage per round on a full attack, he isn't what I would call optimized. At all. I might give the monk a pass if he is a good trip build, I don't really have enough information. But tripping enemies SMALLER than himself does not strike me as impressive.


The Monk is not optimized for tripping, he just has Improved Trip, decent Str and being Large helps... And i pick my targets... ;)

I agree completely with your point about my Monk being fairly humble for a melee char, i made a backup Barbarian/Fighter/Disciple of Dispater that nicely showed what a REAL melee char can do... (Especially if he can get his hands on a Minotaur Greathammer...:smallbiggrin:)

Roleplay is certainly important, there are sessions where there is barely any combat, but we do all like to vanquish a variety of enemies on a regular basis as well...

I agree with what has been said about using a different type of enemies, not one big melee brute that we can gang up on, but some ranged/spellcasting enemies... Asides from that it is also a matter of experience for the DM, learning how to utilize different creatures to provide a bigger challenge...

It's not like we are not challenged at all btw, my Monk has been inches from death a few times (i have a pretty terrible AC, especially when enlarged), and even the cleric has been in the single digit hit points more then once...

[JusticeZero]

First, mix up encounters.
Second, ask the top end characters to not steal the spotlight when they can.
Third, build some encounters around the abilities of the weakest characters, socially if nothing else.
Fourth, key encounters for the median character, not the biggest gun. If you ramp up to "challenge" the highest op character, you alienate the party and encourage the min max player to focus on doubling down on optimization at the expense of RP and concept because you are a killer GM.

[Nathan-Grey]

The Monk is not optimized for tripping, he just has Improved Trip, decent Str and being Large helps... And i pick my targets... ;)

I agree completely with your point about my Monk being fairly humble for a melee char, i made a backup Barbarian/Fighter/Disciple of Dispater that nicely showed what a REAL melee char can do... (Especially if he can get his hands on a Minotaur Greathammer...:smallbiggrin:)

Roleplay is certainly important, there are sessions where there is barely any combat, but we do all like to vanquish a variety of enemies on a regular basis as well...

I agree with what has been said about using a different type of enemies, not one big melee brute that we can gang up on, but some ranged/spellcasting enemies... Asides from that it is also a matter of experience for the DM, learning how to utilize different creatures to provide a bigger challenge...

It's not like we are not challenged at all btw, my Monk has been inches from death a few times (i have a pretty terrible AC, especially when enlarged), and even the cleric has been in the single digit hit points more then once...

Pfff, the Goliath Cleric/Ordained Champion of Hextor laughs at damage :P
And all the Warforged does in RP is smash things or tumble from high places....


But yes, we are a bit combat focused, and we do kill things in bloody gory ways, but hey, i like that :)
Just give us some scenarios where we cant use our brute force, let us take back a fort or well defended position, we cant just charge the wall and hope it will crumble.
Or let us defend a village, where we have to split up and face overwelming odds

[Neverborn]

You are just jealous that you cannot jump down from a crow's nest as elegantly as the Warforged! (And land on your face as gracefully!:smallbiggrin:)

Of course, if my Monk is too "optimized", i could always go back to my former character... Would be fun to take Zarathos into the epic levels...:smallcool:

Looks at epic Incantatrix... That will do nicely...Muahahahahaha!!!!!

[animewatcha]

Some good advice here!

Btw, the Monk can be large a few times a day because the DM was kind enough to let me start with an item that casts Enlarge Construct (same as Enlarge Person, works on Constructs), after we realised i would not be able to use a regular Enlarge item...

I second the idea of creating different/more varied types of encounters... The final one of our last session was a start, but you limited yourself and helped us greatly by having the 4 (or was it 5) Sorcerers be in a confined space where they could not gain the advantage of mobility... Also having them start with some more defensive spells like Mirror Image/Improved Invisibility would have changed that encounter a LOT...

About the other players, the Rogue-Assassin tends to rely on his stealth/spells to get into a good backstab position, and when he does he can match the Monk and Cleric in damage output... The Wizard just buffs everyone, making us more effective... He would also be our best (and only) weapon against some of the strategies proposed here...

@animewatcha: Core Rulebooks, PHB2, Races Books, Complete Books, Eberron Books, Spell Compendium, Magic Item Compendium... Did i miss anything?

Don't know if you are missing anything because we don't know all the books you have. Like tome of battle, psionic sterf, dragon mags, dragon compendium, book of erotic fantasy ( first spell turn the cleric into a woman, second spell impregnate them ), magic of incarnum. Stuff like that.

[Nathan-Grey]

Don't know if you are missing anything because we don't know all the books you have. Like tome of battle, psionic sterf, dragon mags, dragon compendium, book of erotic fantasy ( first spell turn the cleric into a woman, second spell impregnate them ), magic of incarnum. Stuff like that.

Omg, i dont want my Cleric to be a girly....

[Gavinfoxx]

BoEF is not Wizards content. In fact, it was that book that led them to tighten the license up...

Besides, BoEF adds an infertility spell. Not like one is actually needed, since Bestow Curse works fine as an infertility spell already.

[Nathan-Grey]

BoEF is not Wizards content. In fact, it was that book that led them to tighten the license up...

Besides, BoEF adds an infertility spell. Not like one is actually needed, since Bestow Curse works fine as an infertility spell already.

A Goliath swinging his 2h large flail into someone's crown jewels also work wonders as an infertility spell

[Chamassa]

Don't know if you are missing anything because we don't know all the books you have. Like tome of battle, psionic sterf, dragon mags, dragon compendium, book of erotic fantasy ( first spell turn the cleric into a woman, second spell impregnate them ), magic of incarnum. Stuff like that.

O god xD yea, im not letting BoEF anywhere near my campaign haha.
Besides that, they are allowed access to all books, but i double check what they using and what it would mean to the campaign.

That said, i believe these are what we currently use:
- PHB's, DMG's, MM's
- Magic Item Compendium
- Complete Series (Complete Warrior etc)
- Races Series (Races of Stone specificly)
- Unearthed Arcana
- Drow of the Underdark

[Neverborn]

My Warforged is already infertile...

And Tome of Battle and the Dragon magazine stuff are not used... Don't know about Psionics...
(I was asking Chamassa if i missed anything, since he is our DM...)

[137beth]

Don't know if you are missing anything because we don't know all the books you have. Like tome of battle, psionic sterf, dragon mags, dragon compendium, book of erotic fantasy ( first spell turn the cleric into a woman, second spell impregnate them ), magic of incarnum. Stuff like that.

Uhhh for a new DM I would really discourage psionics/ToB/MoI. And if the melee characters are already perceived by the group as being powerful, then I would certainly not encourage ToB.
Anyways, I'm always a fan of dispelling the party's buffs. Dispel the buffs on the monk and undead. Rebuke the undead. Fly.

[Pesimismrocks]

Golem. It has DR, Spell immunity and since your party is quantity based attacks wise it will be a difficult challenge

[KillianHawkeye]

Uhhh for a new DM I would really discourage psionics/ToB/MoI.

Why is that? Certainly Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum shouldn't be used without a proper understanding of how they work since they are both a little more complicated than other rule systems, but psionics is basically just magic using points instead of spell slots. Gain familiarity with any of these as a player and you shouldn't have trouble incorporating them into a game even as a novice DM.

[Kyberwulf]

I would start putting them in environmental situations. Fighting on Ice, in water chest high. On the sides of steep hill-type structures. Ranged combat is good. Across large openings, such as one group of enemies on one side of a gorge, the Pcs on the other side. Random falling objects from the ceiling. Like Drops of lava pouring down in irregular intervals.

[herrhauptmann]

Why is that? Certainly Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum shouldn't be used without a proper understanding of how they work since they are both a little more complicated than other rule systems, but psionics is basically just magic using points instead of spell slots. Gain familiarity with any of these as a player and you shouldn't have trouble incorporating them into a game even as a novice DM.

Not all players have familiarity with them of course. And psionics, it has a bunch of tricks that don't exist on the arcane side. Like psycrystals gaining bonus feats of their own.

[JusticeZero]

As I recall, at least in PF animal companions can get feats too. The quirks of psionics are not all that exotic. And core casters have quirks of their own that tend to be more unbalanced and ridiculous.

[ericgrau]

That does not seem like high damage at all for level 9. Even without using any major optimization that seems pretty normal for a full attack. Unless you mean 12d8 per hit? In *core*, no tricks, with sword and board I can get 22 damage per hit with high hit reliability and high defense, so 30 per hit is no big deal. Especially with a typical cleric's chance to hit.

What kind of defensive gear are they getting that they should die so fast to anything challenging? Are they getting full wealth by level? Including AC, save & con items? In a wide variety (more effective) rather than a single expensive item (less effective)?

If they're choosing not to get such items or selling them off, then start gradually sending the higher CR stuff until they get scared into it. Beating EL = party level + 2 is not anything special. You're also getting close to the levels when more and more PC deaths are expected regardless of what they do. And then it's more a matter of fearing resurrection costs than fearing the loss of character. Defense becomes a budget issue. Don't be too afraid of killing PCs. Only way they'll feel like they need to do something about it.

[Chamassa]

What kind of defensive gear are they getting that they should die so fast to anything challenging? Are they getting full wealth by level? Including AC, save & con items? In a wide variety (more effective) rather than a single expensive item (less effective)?

If they're choosing not to get such items or selling them off, then start gradually sending the higher CR stuff until they get scared into it. Beating EL = party level + 2 is not anything special. You're also getting close to the levels when more and more PC deaths are expected regardless of what they do. And then it's more a matter of fearing resurrection costs than fearing the loss of character. Defense becomes a budget issue.

I tend to mix it up a little, sometimes i give enemy NPCs randomized loot according to treasure tables, sometimes i give them predetermined items. This tends to make sure they get both Wealth/Level and some useful items. They are generally selling off a lot (Except stat boosting items etc.) Sometimes they get lucky, and make over 15k on an encounter that 'should be' worth 9k, sometimes they get less then they should. It all balances out in the end (i do keep loose track of that).


Don't be too afraid of killing PCs. Only way they'll feel like they need to do something about it.
Overall, i think your advice combines what most people have been saying. Throw stuff at them that MIGHT kill them unless they get creative. Ow, and i need to not be afraid stuff will kill them, ultimately i control if they will or not.

[Gnaeus]

Overall, i think your advice combines what most people have been saying. Throw stuff at them that MIGHT kill them unless they get creative. Ow, and i need to not be afraid stuff will kill them, ultimately i control if they will or not.


Anyway, you've got 2 tier 1 characters in your game.
One is doing a good job with minions, the other is utility? So he's buffing the party? Or do you mean the old form of utility, where he hasn't banned any schools of magic?
It's going to be hard to challenge them if they're played to their potential.

Pretty much that. Death at that level is only a setback, as long as it isn't a TPK (and given the cleric's undead use, maybe even if it IS a TPK). I regularly through fights at PCs that I think will likely kill them, in the knowledge that they will just pull some spell or other solution that will make it doable.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
*No-Melee-Unless-You-Fly encounter*

As usual, Biff provides another excellent, well-considered combat encounter.

This is really cool in the setup...but for those who would prefer to avoid using beholders, can you suggest an alternative flying creature (or creatures) that would provide the same degree of threat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As usual, Biff provides another excellent, well-considered combat encounter.

This is really cool in the setup...but for those who would prefer to avoid using beholders, can you suggest an alternative flying creature (or creatures) that would provide the same degree of threat?

Maybe Arrowhawks, or some sort of... flying race Warlocks, but that wouldn't be anywhere near the same threat level. The biggest draw of beholderkin is the action economy advantage they offer. There just isn't a substitute.

[Lightlawbliss]

As usual, Biff provides another excellent, well-considered combat encounter.

This is really cool in the setup...but for those who would prefer to avoid using beholders, can you suggest an alternative flying creature (or creatures) that would provide the same degree of threat?

Flying wizards and clerics?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just go with Tucker's Kobolds, that never fails to humiliate a powerful party.

[Flickerdart]

Maybe Arrowhawks, or some sort of... flying race Warlocks, but that wouldn't be anywhere near the same threat level. The biggest draw of beholderkin is the action economy advantage they offer. There just isn't a substitute.
Multivoice is my favourite way to increase boss monster action economy. If your creature of choice has too few heads, Multi-headed template solves that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Winged or Half-Fiend Hydra with Improved Flight and something to improve its reach would work. Its body would be too far for them to attack directly, but they could ready an action to sunder a head when the beast attacks. Give it Snatch and Improved Snatch from the Draconomicon, anyone medium or smaller that it bites gets grappled and pulled off the bridge. If they escape the grapple (or if it does) they'll fall to their death. Of course if they're dropped it would get to make an AoO on them for moving out of a threatened space, and don't forget it bites with every head on an AoO, any of which could regrab them.

I'd prefer using a grabbing hydra underwater, though. Snatch, Improved Snatch, and Multisnatch allows it to grapple at a -10 for the rest of it to not be considered grappling, just the head that grabbed. The rest of its heads can attack the grabbed foe as though from outside the grapple. If the party was swimming through an underwater tunnel and ran into this they may start to get worried when you remind them of how long they can hold their breath.

[Story]

Just go with Tucker's Kobolds, that never fails to humiliate a powerful party.

Unless said party actually knows what they're doing. Or has a competent spellcaster. Or is at a mid-high level where they can just power through it anyway.

[herrhauptmann]

Unless said party actually knows what they're doing. Or has a competent spellcaster. Or is at a mid-high level where they can just power through it anyway.

Isn't taht the sort of party that Tuckers Kobolds were sent after in the first place?

[Story]

As far as I know, the original Tucker's Kobolds were sent after an overconfident but unoptimized party. Also it was 1ed, when spellcasters weren't so ridiculous and combat was more deadly in general.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Unless said party actually knows what they're doing. Or has a competent spellcaster. Or is at a mid-high level where they can just power through it anyway.

Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#12) runs the party out of resources. They're relentless, the party will eventually run low on spells and hp and want to rest in the safety of a Rope Trick or even Teleport away. For a party of this level you'll need to include some sort of magic anomaly that prevents all extraplanar movement. That means no teleportation, nothing from Conjuration (Summoning or Calling), and no extraplanar spaces will work at all. They can't access the contents of their Bag of Holding or Portable Hole or Handy Haversack. They can't use Rope Trick or Teleport away or even use Dimension Door or Benign Transposition or Blink. Summon Monster/Undead/etc. spells won't work, nor will Calling spells. Also remember that there will always be at least one kobold observing the party at any given time, they will never be out of sight in their lair. Also be sure to include a bunch of these opponents (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#14), and remember kobolds are fond of picks and picks are perfect for delivering a coup de grace to a paralyzed foe, even if it's from a 1/4 CR opponent.

Edit: Normally Tucker's Kobolds deal with Rope Trick by observing where it's positioned, and building a large fire under it high enough to fill the area with flames and smoke. At the party's current level though they're likely to have access to Teleport, and blocking summoning spells and tactical teleportation is useful as well considering how many pitfalls will be present.

[Rubik]

Tucker's Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#12) runs the party out of resources. They're relentless, the party will eventually run low on spells and hp and want to rest in the safety of a Rope Trick or even Teleport away. For a party of this level you'll need to include some sort of magic anomaly that prevents all extraplanar movement. That means no teleportation, nothing from Conjuration (Summoning or Calling), and no extraplanar spaces will work at all. They can't access the contents of their Bag of Holding or Portable Hole or Handy Haversack. They can't use Rope Trick or Teleport away or even use Dimension Door or Benign Transposition or Blink. Summon Monster/Undead/etc. spells won't work, nor will Calling spells.You could also have the walls of the caves they're in block such effects, and they extend onto coexistent planes, as well.

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155518) has some good ideas for foiling your party, as well, using nasty TK tactics.

[Spuddles]

Uhhh for a new DM I would really discourage psionics/ToB/MoI. And if the melee characters are already perceived by the group as being powerful, then I would certainly not encourage ToB.
Anyways, I'm always a fan of dispelling the party's buffs. Dispel the buffs on the monk and undead. Rebuke the undead. Fly.

Mechanically, those sources are actually easier to DM for because the optimization floor/ceiling are much closer together.


As usual, Biff provides another excellent, well-considered combat encounter.

This is really cool in the setup...but for those who would prefer to avoid using beholders, can you suggest an alternative flying creature (or creatures) that would provide the same degree of threat?

I used this encounter three years ago, per biff's suggestion. It was so good, our long term DM passed DMing the campaign over to me!

[John Longarrow]

For myself, I normally expect min/maxed characters. I also expect several characters to step in for any given type of challenge, and I expect the players to come up with something I've never thought of on a daily basis.

Because I expect competent play from the players, I've not had much issue with creating challenging encounters. I also lay out the encounters based as much on what the NPCs should/would be doing as what the PCs can handle.

Because the encounters are not geared to simply be "PCs kill monsters", often they are far more enjoyable. An example of a very fun one was an arena fight.

Four groups of 6 first level characters (one group the PCs, the other three NPCs) faced off against "Batman". Party enters octagonal arena. Three other groups also enter. In the center is a guy in what amounts to a monks outfit. Lights go out so everyone has two rounds to prepair. Lights come on. Fight starts with all four groups against guy in the middle. Guy in the middle is a swordsage - were direbat. Batman has 10 rounds to drop all opponents to win. Turns out two PCs were left standing at the end, so win goes to "The MOB", the group the PCs were in. REALLY fun fight, even though the PCs didn't realize it was a timed event. Really fun to, especially since the party didn't play very cohesively. They still talk about it fondly, so its gotta be a good fight.

If you avoid having all of your fights be "Kick in the door, kill stuff", you will have more fun and a better challenge for your players.