Interested in playing a wight from 1st level... but have mechanical worries

[justiceforall]

I have a character idea that seems brilliant (to me) in terms of story and flavour, but looking at the mechanics for it is making me a little worried. Specifically, I've come up with a concept that would have me playing a wight from 1st level, in a most likely non-evil campaign (although to remain true to the wight's description and fluff, he would probably be lawful-evil himself). But there's some mechanical issues I'm worrying about, so I decided to vet the idea here before I try selling it to my GM.

The problem I'm seeing is that playing a wight from 1st level (or at all) seems fraught with peril. There's a raft of issues I'm foreseeing that makes you pretty unlikely to survive the 8 levels before one is able to take a class level of any sort. Second, effectiveness-wise... you seem really far off the curve for any other character of your level for those next 7 levels after you start. Specifically 2nd level is a real pain, since you don't gain any hp, in addition to it being the single most dangerous transition in the progression (see below).

So in the interests of clarity I'll address one topic at a time - I am seeing the following issues with survivability:

- Dies at 0hp. So although Mr Wight would start with 12hp... he pretty much has 10 less hp than joe average starting character since he can't go negative and not crumple into a pile of dust. You can't even get a CON bonus to buffer yourself up a bit.

- No armour or shield proficiency. Sure you can wear armour with no check penalty, but that is going to limit your options pretty darned hard early on. Furthermore, since you only get one feat at 1st (and no, no UA flaws please), you cannot even spend feats early to get the armour. Even then, the lack of hit dice at every level mean you are waiting for 5th level to get your second feat anyway.

- Turn undead. The obvious bane of any undead character, but specifically 1st/2nd level seems like a huuuuuuuuuuge potential for disaster because you are ECL 1 or 2, yet only have 1 HD. A second level cleric walks up, passes a fairly straight forward turn undead roll and pop, you are a pile of dust (or a total slave). A second level cleric as an opponent would not be terribly unreasonable to expect at that stage either.

In the aiding-survivability bag:

- undead traits. These seem awesome, although they seem like they won't be much use at all at 1st level. How many ability damaging, negative-level inducing, etc opponents are likely to jump the character in the first few encounters?

- stealth. The wight has a couple of boosts to its stealth, and even though these don't come with any additional means of utilising it (sneak attack) its still always good to be able to sneak around if you are paranoid, especially at low levels where everything is still resorting to spot/listen.


So as sad as it sounds to any powergamer, I am seriously considering shield proficiency at 1st level. It seems like the most straightforward way to get +2 AC. I am allowed to retrain later, so this could be repurposed but at the very start, it seems pretty damn useful? Light armour proficiency would also allow +2 AC (going from leather to chain shirt), but I'm not quite sure what a wight's starting cash is and I'm currently operating on the assumption its sweet buggerall.

I suppose the other immediately obvious possibility is turn resistance? Honestly the idea of being forced to run and then cower doesn't bother me *too* much, since its something you kind of sign on for when you decide to play an undead character. But the part where you blow up with no save... that seems less acceptable.


Thoughts/commentary on the initial problems?

[Gemini476]

...What version of the Wight are you using? Is it a Savage Species-style Monster Class or are you just trying to use a LA+X race at level 1?
'Cause I'm pretty sure the second one is almost always a bad idea.

[justiceforall]

The monster template in Libris Mortis. You can find the public posting by Wizards here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001a&page=3

[Runestar]

You are right in that pretty much every undead class is unplayable, between a debilitatingly high ECL, crap hp, poor bab and poor defenses. This includes the wight as well.

You would be more of a liability to your party than anything else. My advice to you is not to play one at all.

[justiceforall]

You would be more of a liability to your party than anything else. My advice to you is not to play one at all.

Not to be rude, but I'd like constructive posts. Assume I'm going to play one regardless, and simply wish to reduce the 'unplayability' as much as possible.

[Gemini476]

Not to be rude, but I'd like constructive posts. Assume I'm going to play one regardless, and simply wish to reduce the 'unplayability' as much as pOssible.

Your lack of health brings you into crossbow-mode even faster than a Wizard. You also have less health than the wizard until level 3 (unless the wizard has 14 Con) and have lower BAB. The only real perks for being a Wight (energy drain + wightocalypse) start at level 8, and you might as well aim for Necropolitan if undead traits are that interesting.

In short, the Wight is awful for players. Play as something else and refluff it as a Wight, and maybe go Necropolitan Soul Eater if you really want to be an undead Wight factory.

Going by the numbers, level by level: (and comparing with a wizard with 14 Con)
1. HP=12, BAB=0, Feats=1 // Wizard: HP=6, BAB=0, Feats=1
2. HP=12, BAB=0, Feats=1 // Wizard: HP=10, BAB=0, Feats=1
3. HP=18, BAB=1, Feats=1 // Wizard: HP=14, BAB=1, Feats=2
4. HP=18, BAB=1, Feats=1 // Wizard: HP=18, BAB=1, Feats=2
5. HP=24, BAB=1, Feats=2 // Wizard: HP=22, BAB=2, Feats=2
6. HP=24, BAB=1, Feats=2 // Wizard: HP=26, BAB=2, Feats=3
7. HP=30, BAB=2, Feats=2 // Wizard: HP=30, BAB=3, Feats=3
8. HP=30, BAB=2, Feats=2 // Wizard: HP=34, BAB=3, Feats=3

Throughout levelling up, you get +2 Dex, +4 Cha, +2 Str, and +2 Wis. You also get some natural armour and a 1d4 slam. Oh, and the capstone gets you minions.
But statwise? A Wizard is better than you in combat. Melee combat. Unbuffed. If he goes Half-Orc or gets boni to Dex and Str through other methods, he is literally more effective than you with the thing that he is generally considered pretty bad at, and has more feats to spend on it too.

Oh, and you only get skill points every other level. Good luck with sneaking around! It's the only thing you can do, since Hide, MS, Spot and Listen are your only class skills.

Tl;dr: refluff something else instead of playing a Wight. Maybe refluff Warforged if you absolutely want those immunities and such at first level, or Necropolitan if you can wait until third. Both can then go into Soul Eater (although the Necropolitan needs a Natural Weapon) and get all of the iconic Wight abilities.

That guy was serious. If you play that Monster Class, you will literally be worse at melee than a wizard without spells. You have the advantage of not falling unconscious and bleeding out at less than 0 HP, effectively, so don't be fooled by those big Hit Dice. You only get four of them, leaving you with an average HP 1 higher than a Rogue with 10 Con. You'll have 1/4 BAB, and stupidly low saves. You get almost nothing in return for those first seven levels, and the capstone isn't as great as it seems.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would just tell the player to play a Necropolitan, then open up the Soul-Eater class to undead. Be a race with the requisite claw attack, and get turned into a Necropolitan, then go full bab class like fighter. As soon as you hit the BAB req for soul eater you will be able to deal negative levels with those claws.

All in all, it's much the same powers at teh same levels, but with more HD and no LA.

[Gemini476]

I would just tell the player to play a Necropolitan, then open up the Soul-Eater class to undead. Be a race with the requisite claw attack, and get turned into a Necropolitan, then go full bab class like fighter. As soon as you hit the BAB req for soul eater you will be able to deal negative levels with those claws.

All in all, it's much the same powers at teh same levels, but with more HD and no LA.

Race: Any living non humanoid.

Huh, you're right. Is there any way to count as living for the purpose of Prestige Classes? Oh, and are Warforged alive?

Actually, what is a "living creature" within RAW? I know that there exists living objects, but are undead non-living creatures?

[Fouredged Sword]

Human heritage feat at first level to get the human subype before changing to necro maybe? You qualify as living because you qualify as human due to the subtype, then inversely you also qualify as non-humanoid because you are undead (applied after the subtype).

[charcoalninja]

E6 has a fantastic model for dealing with LA races. Essentially you take a stunted statline compared to the normies and that mitigates your LA. Basically the normies get a higher point buy and you get progressively lower and lower point buys to compensate for your monster powers. With how tied to ability scores PF/3.5 is, in my experience it is a pretty darn good trick.

So I recommend you approach your DM with this idea and take a 10 point buy or something to offset your LA so you start as Wight Class X at level one right next to the human sorcerer X and go from there.

The default RAW ECLs, monster classes and LAs are so horriffically done that abiding by them just destroys you.

If something like that is not an option than you simply HAVE to take advantage of everything that a wight is. IIRC even animals can gain the template so to offset your terrible hp, you're going to need to minionmance. Slaughter some simple animals like a pack of riding dogs and have a kennel of undead guardhounds engage and terrorize your foes.

Your little hp won't matter if you're not directly engaged. Though as a wight you kill anything you touch in one shot as the leveldrain will take out their HD, so playing yourself as waiting on the sidelines until the right moment and then charging things to one shot them, might be a solid strategy.

Though it sounds like you've got a class progression you're going off of so most of my play advise might be lost.

I recommend forgetting entirely about the monster class and talk to your DM about what you can do to play the character as a fully powered wight straight from level 1 (like taking a poor statline to offset the powers).

EDIT: Just to clarify the statline balance idea goes something like this:
LA- 0: 30 point buy
LA +1: 20 point buy
LA +2: 10 point buy
LA +3: 5 point buy
LA +4: 0 point buy

[danzibr]

You are right in that pretty much every undead class is unplayable, between a debilitatingly high ECL, crap hp, poor bab and poor defenses. This includes the wight as well.

You would be more of a liability to your party than anything else. My advice to you is not to play one at all.

Not to be rude, but I'd like constructive posts. Assume I'm going to play one regardless, and simply wish to reduce the 'unplayability' as much as possible.
Yeah, this is like when someone declares they want to play a Monk, a real Monk, and people tell him/her to play SS.

I agree with charcoalninja. Try to talk to your DM about minimizing the LA with lesser point-buy, then on top of that some LA buyoff. Get to those class levels ASAP.

[Gemini476]

Yeah, this is like when someone declares they want to play a Monk, a real Monk, and people tell him/her to play SS.

I agree with charcoalninja. Try to talk to your DM about minimizing the LA with lesser point-buy, then on top of that some LA buyoff. Get to those class levels ASAP.

It's more like someone who wants to play a wizard with 9 Int, since Rincewind can't cast spells. Sure, it's fluffy and might maybe be fun to roleplay, but the mechanical abilities of your character will be awful.
Monster Classes are pretty bad, with the exception of those ones that you can multiclass out of. The problem is that if you let a level four character play as a Wight using the E6 LA method, you get these attributes:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12
On top of that, you get natural armour and the BAB, saves and proficiencies of a wizard. Oh, and +8 to sneaky stuff. And energy drain at level 4. Along with the ability to control your spawn, which can easily cause a wightocalypse.
But other than the minions it's pretty awful, and even more so with bad stats!

[justiceforall]

Yeah, this is like when someone declares they want to play a Monk, a real Monk, and people tell him/her to play SS.

Having read this forum a bit, I'd already assumed when I created this thread I'd have to trawl through 90% of that, and just hope the other 10% is gold.


Try to talk to your DM about minimizing the LA with lesser point-buy, then on top of that some LA buyoff. Get to those class levels ASAP.

I was going to ask the GM if they minded if I took class levels before finishing the wight levels, perhaps interspersed. But that aside, at first level it's still likely to be a level 1 wight as per Libris Mortis.

[charcoalninja]

It's more like someone who wants to play a wizard with 9 Int, since Rincewind can't cast spells. Sure, it's fluffy and might maybe be fun to roleplay, but the mechanical abilities of your character will be awful.
Monster Classes are pretty bad, with the exception of those ones that you can multiclass out of. The problem is that if you let a level four character play as a Wight using the E6 LA method, you get these attributes:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con -, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12
On top of that, you get natural armour and the BAB, saves and proficiencies of a wizard. Oh, and +8 to sneaky stuff. And energy drain at level 4. Along with the ability to control your spawn, which can easily cause a wightocalypse.
But other than the minions it's pretty awful, and even more so with bad stats!

I'm not talking at all about a monster class. My suggestion is take the poor statline but you're an ENTIRE wight. So your BAB is that of a wizard for level 1, but you only need to hit a guy once to kill him since you energy drain and the whole reason you have those stats is the energy drain and minionmancy.

Avoid monster classes at all costs they were DELIBERATELY made inferior and to be mechanical punishments. My plan would be him playing a human WIGHT Class X level 1. The LA point buy numbers were just some I pulled out of the blue so it could be further adjusted. Maybe bump LA+4 up to a 10 point buy and add 5 for each other LA with LA 0 still being a 30 point.

EDIT: actually not even a BAB of a wizard at level one. I'd have you be a Human Wight Barbarian or Rogue or whatever.

[Runestar]

Not to be rude, but I'd like constructive posts. Assume I'm going to play one regardless, and simply wish to reduce the 'unplayability' as much as possible.

And I also apologise upfront if I sounded rude earlier on.

It's technically not core, but I think Andy Collins made a wight template.

http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/wight.shtml

See if you can negotiate with your DM to lower the LA? +2 sounds about right, especially if you remove the problematic spawn ability.

[GreenETC]

I'm not talking at all about a monster class. My suggestion is take the poor statline but you're an ENTIRE wight. So your BAB is that of a wizard for level 1, but you only need to hit a guy once to kill him since you energy drain and the whole reason you have those stats is the energy drain and minionmancy.
The problems with this are:
A. A Wight has no LA, so the only way to be one is to use the monster class, which ends up totaling 4 RHD and LA +4 on top of that.
B. In the E6 LA system, someone with LA +4 gets a PB of 0, compared to the LA +0 PB of 32. Which means you have garbage stats and are physically not allowed to be a Wight until level 4.

If you wanted, you could talk your DM into having the monster class count as 4 RHD and LA +4. Then talk him into giving you the LA +4 as a 0 PB, provided your group has a PB of 32, and if they use less than that, hope he doesn't give you a PB of -6. Then ask if you can consolidate the monster class levels into 2/1, so that you get everything between the instances where you get new skill points, letting you start as a level 1 Wight with 0 PB, +1 NA, Good Will, Bad BaB, 12 Skill points, a single feat and a 1d4 slam.

Then all you have to worry about is not dying to clerics or anything else (you only have the 12 HP) for 4 whole levels before you can take your mediocre stats and begin actually taking class levels. That your friends took 4 levels ago. And also you're playing a most likely non-evil campaign as a LE zombie-man who is literally worse than any other party member, meaning they would probably just kill you if sleeping next to a Wight sounds uncomfortable to them.

Please, I beg you to reconsider. Playing as a Wight could be fun if you could be level 8 to have that monster class finished, despite the low HP, but you're starting at Lvl 1 with a group of non-evils who can kill you without a second thought (because you are literally a monster), if the enemies you fight don't already get to you first.

[OldTrees1]

Don't use official monster classes.
Use these instead: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182724
Wight: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9238635&postcount=127

This doesn't solve all the problems:
Low hp at first level is painful. But it gets better at later levels.
Turn undead is painful. Try to get turn resistance and avoid those racist Pelorites (Or anyone with greater turning).

Oh, and make sure your DM knows the weaknesses of undead:
Die at 0, Greater Turning/Command Undead, Poor Fort saves vs Disintegrate.
This allows them to balance encounters accurately. (Rather than claim you are OP and accidentally kill you)

[Tulya]

If homebrew alternatives are on the table, I'll throw my hat in the ring:
Wight
Undead type, (Humanoid Race) subtype

Cha +2
Medium Size
30' base land speed
Darkvision 60'
+8 racial bonus to Move Silently checks
1d4 Slam attack
+1 Natural Armor
Lesser Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures struck by a wight's natural attacks take one point of negative energy damage. The wight gains 1 temporary hit point. Temporary hit points gained this way stack up to the wight's number of undead hit dice, and last indefinitely. This ability is replaced by Energy Drain at 4 Undead hit dice.
Create Lesser Spawn (Su): Living creatures slain by a wight's natural attacks or energy drain effects become corrupted with negative energy, but do not automatically rise as Wights. Instead, for 1 week, the slain creature counts as having been killed by a death effect, and thus can not be returned to life by Raise Dead or similarly restricted effects. The Wight draws in a portion of the corrupted corpse's essence, granting a +1 profane bonus to its attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws for each hit die the slain creature had, up to a maximum of the Wight's undead hit dice for 1 week. (Only the greatest bonus is used at any given time.) At 8th character level, a wight can create full wight spawn as per the Create Spawn ability.

Undead Hit Dice Progression
1 HD: As base creature
2 HD: +2 Str, +1 natural armor
3 HD: +2 Dex, +1 natural armor
4 HD: +2 Wis, +2 Cha, +1 natural armor, Lesser Energy Drain replaced with Energy Drain ability. (Before the Wight has the Create Spawn ability, creatures slain due to possessing negative levels equal to their current level rise the next night as free-willed Wights.)
Sprinkle LA to taste. I wouldn't exceed +1 LA, but then, I think +0 LA is fair.

Regardless of what you end up doing, I recommend working out a gentleman's agreement with your GM about anti-Undead measures. They're a core feature of a major core class, so at least Turn/Rebuking might not count as unfairly targeting you. Enemy undead typically have hit dice in excess of their challenge rating, but player undead are usually the reverse with respect to effective character level.

[SciChronic]

The reason for the monster classes being so awful is the fact that they are designed to be defeated by a PC of the same level. so playing one is a really bad idea. As someone said earlier, it would be better to just refluff a Necropolitan who specializes in level drain as a wight for a PC. you'd have to talk to your DM about getting around the level loss for becoming a necropolitan though, and the 3k gold to undergo the ritual.

[Eldonauran]

I like the Libris Mortis a lot and, like anyone that loves something and is aware of certain flaws, has created houserules to make things less ... painful.

I treat the undead progressions as 'class levels' instead of normal racial HD. See below for details.

I borrow a bit from Pathfinder for this:

HD: Undead have d8 HD, bonus HP from Cha mod
BAB: Undead have 3/4 BAB
Saves: Good Will save. Use Cha mod for Fort saves
Special: Undead ARE subject to precision damage (like sneak attack) and ARE subject to critical hits. Other standard undead traits apply.

I have also adopted the Pathfinder skill set (and feat progression) for any 3.5e game I play.

For the undead progressions in the Libris Mortis, I change the following:

HD: Levels that grant HD continue to grants d12 HD. Levels that do not progress HD, the character gains a generic racial HD, using the pathfinder rules above. d8 HD. Roll hit points and add you Cha mod.
BAB: Use the 3/4 BAB progression for all levels, d12 and d8 alike. No 'dead' levels'.
Saves: Add d12 HD levels and d8 HD levels together to determine saves, as normal.
Skills: You gain skills at every level.


That should take care of any issues that crop up. You still get feats every odd level. The trade off is you get that nice undead type but no real class abilities.

[justiceforall]

Thank you for the responses, but does anyone have any advice for actually using RAW for at least 1st level?

This is not an invitation for "don't do it" responses, please just assume I would be doing it anyway. Treat it as a thought exercise if you have to.

I'm not worried about power, or even relative power amongst the group. More how do I make it as least-bad as possible.


but you're starting at Lvl 1 with a group of non-evils who can kill you without a second thought (because you are literally a monster)

I play with an exceptional group, this won't be a problem. If it ever gets to the point where they do attack the character, I will have provoked it and have no legitimate argument.

[OldTrees1]

Thank you for the responses, but does anyone have any advice for actually using RAW for at least 1st level?


At the first couple of levels you might want to use a ranged weapon.

A source of toughness like effect would be useful. Elans are naturally psionic and thus can take Psionic Body and Psionic feats for hp and feats. Also they can use their natural power points to reduce damage by 4hp per day.

You could also delay the levels of wight until after taking your first level as a cloistered cleric or something. (deals with hp and armor issues) However you asked for wight at 1st level.

The Lifebond gives +4 turn resistance and +2 untyped bonus on saves as long as your living ally is within 60ft. It can be taken multiple times as needed for turn resistance.


So an Elan Wight 1 with Lifebond
Leather Armor has no penalty for non proficiency (ACP=0)
So you have:
Hp 12 (+4 "temp hp" per day)
Armor (leather will have to do)
Turn Resistance (You have 5 effective HD for turning so you can even hang around lvl 1 pelorites with their pesky Sun domain)

Unfortunately, by RAW, you can't multiclass out of wight until after 8th level. You can upgrade to masterwork studded leather + masterwork light shield, and eventually mithral scale mail without getting proficiency.

[justiceforall]

I could also use a masterwork small shield/buckler, or darkwood/mithral heavy shield without penalty yes?

For some reason the idea of a wight with a crossbow seems... bizarre to me. :)

[Vaz]

How can you,be an Elan wight?

[OldTrees1]

Yes you could have a darkwood heavy shield


How can you,be an Elan wight?

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Thus an Abberation (Elan) can become a Wight
Notice this rule (in the negative level description) means that any creature slain by the Wight's energy drain will rise as a Wight (but would not be automatically controlled if it wasn't a humanoid).

[Deadline]

I may have missed this earlier, but what is your concept? Does it have to be a Wight, specifically, or could you use Necropolitan instead?

[Vaz]

Yes you could have a darkwood heavy shield



A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

Thus an Abberation (Elan) can become a Wight, not an Elan Wight. Woght is not a template, it is an actial creature, you have non of your base abilities.
Notice this rule (in the negative level description) means that any creature slain by the Wight's energy drain will rise as a Wight (but would not be automatically controlled if it wasn't a humanoid).

yes, but you're a wight

[OldTrees1]

yes, but you're a wight

Monster classes in Libris Mortis are not races.* The have racial traits that modify your base race. (see references to base race in they racial traits of the wight class) The fact they can be entered at later levels should be more evidence if you still doubt.

The only part with questionable RAW is whether you can rise as a Wight 1 rather than as a full Wight. Considering that is the purpose of the undead monster classes, I see no reason to be worried.

*However they are not template classes. Template classes allow early exit. Undead classes and Monster race classes do not.

[Vaz]

You must be a Race to take the racial class, IIRC. AFB now, but if it runs like every other racial class out there, (and why should it not) then you must be a wight race.

[OldTrees1]

You must be a Race to take the racial class, IIRC. AFB now, but if it runs like every other racial class out there, (and why should it not) then you must be a wight race.

I have the books. The Libris Mortis undead classes are not quite like the Savage Species racial classes.

[Blackhawk748]

As a DM i would give you more HD, like 8 over the class, i mean seriously its freakin undead HD who cares, bad BaB bad Fort and Ref saves lousy skills, d12 HD is nice but with no con its kinda dicey, Improved Toughness may actually be a decent choice, as crazy as that sounds.

I had a player play a ghoul once, and after i realized that they had almost no HD at level 8. So i let them have more HD. Ill let you in on a secret that WotC doesnt want us to know.................... he didnt shatter the game universe.

Edit: ok a Wight isnt a ghoul, but still a lvl 8 character is full capable of inflicting negative levels and controlling wights. On a side note the best way to stop the wightocolypse is to slightly modify any spawn. We rule that any PC controlled spawn lose the ability to make more spawn, or if you dont like that they lose the ability to control them, so you have uncontrolled wights, wich is seriously a problem. Also spawn are limited by the standard undead HD control. ie 4 hd per level

[justiceforall]

I may have missed this earlier, but what is your concept? Does it have to be a Wight, specifically, or could you use Necropolitan instead?

No it does need to be a wight, its the basis of the entire character concept/backstory. I did read the Necropolitan though, be fun for some other character ideas or bad guys when I GM.

As for one of the earlier comments about creating wight-hounds... does that work? I was under the impression only humanoids could become wights?

[OldTrees1]

No it does need to be a wight, its the basis of the entire character concept/backstory. I did read the Necropolitan though, be fun for some other character ideas or bad guys when I GM.

As for one of the earlier comments about creating wight-hounds... does that work? I was under the impression only humanoids could become wights?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels


A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

[justiceforall]

Emphasis added:

A character with negative levels

That's pretty specific. Probably not intended sure, but the wight entry in the MM does not allow for non-humanoid wights in the same way zombies/skeletons do. There's no obvious way to create a "wight" hound/non-humanoid?

I can't remember, did savage species have a wight template? I know it had umbral/wraith/ghost/etc?

EDIT: I mean the template for adding to anything, not the "monster class".

[justiceforall]

In fact, here's a quote from the SRD wight entry for you. Emphasis added:


Create Spawn (Su)

Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds.

That seems fairly clear, no non-humanoid wights.

[OldTrees1]

In fact, here's a quote from the SRD wight entry for you. Emphasis added:



That seems fairly clear, no non-humanoid wights.

There are 3 types of Wights:
Monster manual Wights (no trace of previous life)
Libris Mortis Wights (racial traits of previous life)
Wight Template Wights ('"Wight" is a template that can be added to any corporeal creature except constructs, oozes, and undead' Dragon #300)

In addition the rules for characters slain by Enervation (negative levels) are clear in that such a character will rise as a Wight.

Create Spawn allows a Wight to create Wights from Humanoids in 1d4 rounds (see create spawn ability) rather than wait until the next night (see negative levels rules) as they would for any other victim.

Wight template adds: +4 nat AC, +2 Strength, +2 Dexrerity, +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma, special abilities of Wights and undead traits

[justiceforall]

We don't use dragon magazine in the group I play in, so we can rule that out.

So how does the libris mortis version interact with a wight-hound? It seems pretty darn non-intuitive to have a dog making slam attacks, speaking common, and having proficiency in simple weapons? I do not think it was intended to work in this way. Libris Mortis quote - emphasis added:


Automatic Languages: Common. Once humanoids themselves, wights remember the language of their own former existence.

[OldTrees1]

I was wrong. The Libris Mortis wight undead class does not seem intended for non humanoid Wights. Non humanoid wights would have to use the Dragon Magazine template despite being created by a Player's handbook spell (Enervation) using DMG rules (negative levels).

Since your group does not use Dragon Magazine and you wish to stick to strict RAW, then wights have to be Humanoids.

[holywhippet]

Just to check, has your DM given any kind of approval for playing as a wight? To me the whole potential "wightpocolypse" would have many DMs saying no outright to that kind of build.

[TuggyNE]

Emphasis added:


That's pretty specific. Probably not intended sure, but the wight entry in the MM does not allow for non-humanoid wights in the same way zombies/skeletons do. There's no obvious way to create a "wight" hound/non-humanoid?

"Character" is not specific to humanoids at all, not even a little. It can be used to refer to humanoid-shaped creatures (Improving Monsters), Int 3+ creatures (a fairly common use), PCs (also fairly common), or even any creature at all. For example,
While every monster has the statistics that a player would need to play the creature as a character, most monsters are not suitable as PCs.

The wight monster entry and template entry are the only things that really restrict that, but they do so confusingly. It would not be out of line to create a more generic Wight template for negative-level-slain creatures of non-Humanoid type to turn into.

[justiceforall]

Just to check, has your DM given any kind of approval for playing as a wight? To me the whole potential "wightpocolypse" would have many DMs saying no outright to that kind of build.

He's fine with it. I'll have to make sure he understands wightpocolypse though.

The character persona is not constructed to create a wightpocolypse. He wouldn't have the mental stats for that sort of high-thinking anyway, even if it was within his range. At best he would create wights accidentally, or as temporary minions to jump on traps/break ambushes/etc.

For the record the character is not intended to be evil, I mostly just want to remain as true to the wight entry as possible at the beginning. As wights are described as incredibly hateful, violent things, evil seems almost mandated at 1st level if I intend to stay true to the fluff.


"Character" is not specific to humanoids at all, not even a little. It can be used to refer to humanoid-shaped creatures (Improving Monsters), Int 3+ creatures (a fairly common use), PCs (also fairly common), or even any creature at all. For example,

SRD quote: "Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds".

I do not really intend for this to become a RAW nitpick war over the nature of wights. The general rules obviously do not intend for there to be non-humanoid wights, so unless there's a SS template for it, let's leave that.

[Thrudd]

I feel like the way to make the libris mortis classes, especially the wight, most playable/surviveable is to multiclass from the beginning. I think they are arranged assuming that is what you will do, in fact, so that "wightocalypse" doesn't happen at too low of a level. I would start with libris mortis wight 1, then multiclass with rogue or fighter or whatever you want for your character's flavor, and alternate every level. Yes, this means no wightocalypse until character level 15, but you need the normal PC classes to get some HD, skills, saves, and actually survive in general.

[charcoalninja]

Well however you like to play the creating spawn power is how you guys want to do it. In 3.5 the energy drain rules say anyone that dies from energy drain rise as a wight after a time, curiously they removed that rule in Pathfinder.

It's not that important since after one fight with some goblins you've got a small undead hitsquad with you anyway.

[justiceforall]

Spoke to the GM about wightpocalypse, he seems amenable to use the Vampire/Vampire Spawn rules (2x HD is the max you can control). Curiously, SS used this rule for the Wight, but it seems to have been omitted from 3.5. Odd.

[Gemini476]

A quick "Wight" build, inspired by things like the Zinc Saucier competitions.

"Wight"
Warforged (Or Necropolitan, if with a permissive DM)
Rogue 7/Soul Eater 1
6+6d6+1d8+8(Con) HP (av. 30+8(Con))
Elite Array:
{table=head]Stat|Base|Mod|Level|Total
STR|15|||15
CON|13|+2||15
DEX|14||2|16
INT|10|||10
WIS|8|-2||6
CHA|12|-2||10
[/table]
"Wight"
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Rogue 1|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Skills|Alertness|Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding

2nd|Rogue 2|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Skills||Evasion

3rd|Rogue 3|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Skills|Weapon Focus(Slam)|Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1

4th|Rogue 4|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Skills||Uncanny Dodge

5th|Rogue 5|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Skills||Sneak Attack +3d6

6th|Rogue 6|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|Skills|Free|Trap Sense +2

7th|Rogue 7|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|Skills||Sneak Attack +4d6

8th|Soul Eater 1|
+6/+1|
+4|
+7|
+4|Skills||Energy Drain 1[/table]

While this build isn't that great, it gets most of the stuff that a Wight does. Which isn't that much, really, since a Wight is basically Undead traits + Energy drain.

Oh yeah, remember that Weapon Finesse needs +1BAB, and thus can't be taken at first level for a Rogue. You can also get into Soul Eater earlier if you take full BAB classes, or later if you take non-full BAB PrCs. It's a sneaky stabby Energy Draining build, though.

[Blackhawk748]

I feel like the way to make the libris mortis classes, especially the wight, most playable/surviveable is to multiclass from the beginning. I think they are arranged assuming that is what you will do, in fact, so that "wightocalypse" doesn't happen at too low of a level. I would start with libris mortis wight 1, then multiclass with rogue or fighter or whatever you want for your character's flavor, and alternate every level. Yes, this means no wightocalypse until character level 15, but you need the normal PC classes to get some HD, skills, saves, and actually survive in general.

You can't multiclass out of the monster class you have to finish it, which is why they suck and almost always need to have HD added to them. And stopping the Wightocolypse isnt that hard, the Vampire spawn control rules are good, and if you really want to stop it just dont let controlled spawn make more spawn, which will stop the spawn ladder.

[OldTrees1]

Of the 3 types of monster classes:
Savage Species Monster Classes
Libris Mortis Undead Classes
Online Template Classes

SS classes cannot be multiclassed into and cannot be multiclasses out of until completed.
LB classes can be multiclassed into but then cannot be multiclasses out of until completed.
Online Template Classes can be multiclassed into and out of.

This is the RAW.

[Segev]

One approach could be to use the Libris Mortis class, and, each time you're behind on HD and feel weaker than the rest of the party, agree to allow you to advance one level in the LM class (including, possibly, gaining an HD if the level would give you one) without increasing your official ECL.

It will be a little tricky to calibrate perfectly, but it will let you adjust upwards when you lag notably behind and get a better ad hoc ECL for where you are in relation to the rest of the party.

[Fable Wright]

Thoughts/commentary on the initial problems?
Find a way to allow your DM to let you Gestalt the Wight levels with the class you want to play.

This may seem like an entirely bizarre idea, but hear me out. According to the SRD, it says that:


In general, a party of four gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of a Challenge Rating equal to their average level + 1.
So, essentially, gestalting adds +1 to the party's CR*. By extension, +1 to a character's CR. Obviously, it's usually a bad idea to mix gestalt and non-gestalt characters in a party, but when one of the classes is Wight, which adds minimal benefits to one side of the progression... it sounds rather reasonable. This was more or less the way multiclassing was handled in AD&D, and playing from level 1 would be easy. (Wight level 1, at level 2 gestalt with other class, level 3+ continue progressing both sides.) Then, when the Wight class progression is complete, just stop progressing two sides and let it act as LA+1 that you can't buy off. It's the most reasonable solution I can think of. If your DM disagrees based on power level, point out what you're actually getting for that level: undead vulnerabilities and a really bad slam attack with a little bit of natural armor (compare: 1st level Wu Jen spell Scales of the Lizard or Cleric's Shield of Faith (which has a much, much better type of bonus to AC instead of the extra +1 bonus)), later +4 Cha and +2 Wis and Str: Compare to Animal Devotion for the scaling bonuses. And then, at level 9, a decently cool ability. One level for a persisted first level spell and a feat and 9 levels of mediocrity for a cool ability that you get for a 1-level dip on a very nice chassis. Compare one blanked level for this (where you get no HD, no BAB, no skills, etc.) to a dip in Cleric 1 and Souleater 1 with your DM (getting full BAB and saves on Souleater and even more feats/abilities from the Cleric domain you didn't trade Animal Devotion for, discounting the spellcasting benefit) staggered over 9 levels of play, and he'll probably agree that letting you gestalt as a Wight for 1 level is a fair trade.

*Disclaimer: Yes, I know it says that for monsters that rely on saves, their CR is essentially 2 higher. My rebuttal: The Wight progression will not improve saves enough for this to ever matter.

[Thrudd]

You can't multiclass out of the monster class you have to finish it, which is why they suck and almost always need to have HD added to them. And stopping the Wightocolypse isnt that hard, the Vampire spawn control rules are good, and if you really want to stop it just dont let controlled spawn make more spawn, which will stop the spawn ladder.

The way the book describes it is confusing, in one place it says "If the character has no class levels, he simply gains one level of the appropriate undead class and may multiclass freely between that undead class and normal class levels." Then in the next paragraph down, it contradicts itself, saying you must progress all the way through the undead class before taking other classes (although it also mentions it is different than other monster classes, but then goes on to basically say that it isn't.)
Anyway, if it is a good character concept and it clearly wouldn't be overpowering to do so, I don't see why someone couldn't house rule an expception to this. If anything, taking wight levels interspersed with a normal class would be underpowering the character. Taking the wight class straight, as is, appears almost unplayable.

I agree with not letting spawn make more spawn. But someone at low levels being able to ability drain and create minions will quickly become overpowering, because at low levels you are probably facing many enemies who will quickly die from level drain. It's just about adventure and party balance, below level 8-9 it is probably inappropriate for a player to have access to henchmen like that.

[justiceforall]

Some good suggestions all, thanks I will take them up with the GM.

How does the slam attack you get at first level work? Do you need a free hand? Does it do 1.5 STR damage like for zombies?

[OldTrees1]

Some good suggestions all, thanks I will take them up with the GM.

How does the slam attack you get at first level work? Do you need a free hand? Does it do 1.5 STR damage like for zombies?

"Slap or Slam
The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage." (srd)
So no you don't need a free hand. Merely a free arm/leg.

It deals 1.5 STR damage according to the wight class
"Slam: A wight has a slam attack that is a natural weapon dealing the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times its Strength bonus." (LM)

[justiceforall]

Well that helps, so at first level Mr Wight could get two attacks, one with a weapon and one with a slam at -5, regardless of whether you have a free hand?

[Blackhawk748]

precisely, its a secondary natural attack so you just stab someone with a knife and then slam your shoulder into them.

[justiceforall]

So the next question in the line then: what are the rules at 1st level for being able to conceal the fact that you are a wight? Disguise rules?

Walking around town as a highly obvious undead monster seems like a good way to have the local clerics come and nuke you.

[Thrudd]

So the next question in the line then: what are the rules at 1st level for being able to conceal the fact that you are a wight? Disguise rules?

Walking around town as a highly obvious undead monster seems like a good way to have the local clerics come and nuke you.

LOL, I thought you had this character concept all planned out already. Seems like a rather large oversight that might ruin this charcter's day...:smallbiggrin:

The disguise skill is pretty clear. 10-30 minutes to put together a disguise. Spot checks when someone meets you to see through the disguise, and each hour you are in their presence. If just causally being seen by groups of people, you just do one check per day or per hour with an average spot check to see if anyone notices you. The DM will have to decide what modifiers apply, how difficult it should be to make a wight look like a normal living person. As a wight you do get a racial charisma bonus, so that will help a bit. Disguise isn't a class skill for wight, but if you do a gestalt wight/rogue it could be. Or if you are allowed to cross class with rogue at level 2, you will only need to spend cross-class points for one level.

[justiceforall]

LOL, I thought you had this character concept all planned out already.

You are mixing up concept and mechanics. Concept yes, mechanics not so much, hence this thread.

There's certainly going to be times where this sort of thing (concealing undead nature) would come up. No GM is going to be able to resist the urge to scare the crap out of me with a few Clerics of Pelor. Clerics of Pelor I would far rather didn't know could instantly vapourise me with Turn Undead.

From the SRD:


If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks. If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

Would it be a vald interpretation that most people/things would not even get to try a spot even though the wight would be disguised?

How would this interact with say, wearing a fully covering cloak?

EDIT: edited for clarity

[Thrudd]

You are mixing up concept and mechanics. Concept yes, mechanics not so much, hence this thread.

There's certainly going to be times where this sort of thing (concealing undead nature) would come up. No GM is going to be able to resist the urge to scare the crap out of me with a few Clerics of Pelor. Clerics of Pelor I would far rather didn't know could instantly vapourise me with Turn Undead.

From the SRD:



Would it be a vald interpretation that most people/things would not even get to try a spot even though the wight would be disguised?

How would this interact with say, wearing a fully covering cloak?

EDIT: edited for clarity

That's how I'd rule it. Most people aren't looking for anything and won't pay any attention to you, even if you might look a little strange. If you are covered in a cloak, even better. The disguise check will only be relevant if someone is looking for you or you are spending a significant amount of time with someone.