3.5 Jotunbrud and Powerful build.

[Snowbluff]

If you could theoretically get both of these, do you think it would stack the benefits? Discuss.

[DeltaEmil]

It could work together, as long as you fulfill the prerequisites.

I do wonder if you get the benefit of Jotunbrud (letting you count as Large for opposed rolls and special attacks based on size) even if you've been shrunken down to Fine size.

[herrhauptmann]

Physically medium size (5x5square with 5ft reach)
But damage as if large.
If advantageous, they can call themselves medium/large/huge on opposed rolls and monster special abilities like imp grab.

I don't think it would be absurdly broken. Most powerful build creatures have LA+1, and you're spending an extra feat on it. And it would make for very good trippers/disarmers.
If you start reducing size from medium, I think the abilities should be edited to "one size larger than your current size" just to stop someone the size of a smurf grappling like an ogre. (But use the regular phrasing if increasing size to prevent abuse)

Heck, there's an alternate rule in races of destiny about letting half-orcs/elves (and most planetouched that come from human lines) count as human for the purpose of feats. If you follow that, halfgiants might be human enough to spend their first feat on Jotunbrud.


It could work together, as long as you fulfill the prerequisites.

I do wonder if you get the benefit of Jotunbrud (letting you count as Large for opposed rolls and special attacks based on size) even if you've been shrunken down to Fine size.

You mean Tiny Von BigMcLargeHuge? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132294

[Gwendol]

Yes, but only the abilities that overlap. A half-giant with Jotunbrud can't wield huge weapons without a penalty.

[Snowbluff]

Okay, this pretty much coincides with what I was thinking.

I am putting together one of those dungeon crasher warblades, and I just wanted to see if I could use the two abilities in concert.

We typically have the knowledge local rule grandfathered in, and a half giant should be able to qualify with human heritage.

[Zombulian]

I did the Human Heritage route for a grappler once. He was a monster...

[Snowbluff]

I did the Human Heritage route for a grappler once. He was a monster...

Fun.

Combat brute is a feat I was looking at well. It's bonusees are based in how far you can move a target, so it's quite synergistic.

[Zombulian]

Fun.

Combat brute is a feat I was looking at well. It's bonusees are based in how far you can move a target, so it's quite synergistic.

Mm interdasting. You don't see Combat Brute used nearly as much as Shocktrooper. Shove in Dungeoncrasher Fighter?

[Snowbluff]

Mm interdasting. You don't see Combat Brute used nearly as much as Shocktrooper. Shove in Dungeoncrasher Fighter?

Post 5.:smallwink:

Shocktrooper will definitely be in the build, and both will synergize when I have knock back. I charge power attack which bulrushes the foe and moving him far enough to charge again.

[Cog]

Jotunbrud treats you as Large for the purposes of size modifiers and certain special attacks of opponents; Powerful Build is neither of those, and so the Powerful Build would work off of your actual size instead. The only way you'll benefit from both is if you start as Small or smaller, but they won't stack even then.

[Zombulian]

Jotunbrud treats you as Large for the purposes of size modifiers and certain special attacks of opponents; Powerful Build is neither of those, and so the Powerful Build would work off of your actual size instead. The only way you'll benefit from both is if you start as Small or smaller, but they won't stack even then.

Oop. Yeah lookin like you just count as large... Twice.

[Snowbluff]

The benefits stack in the order you wish. If you are large for the purpose of size modifiers, then you are one size larger for the purpose of size modifiers.

[Cog]

Stacking rules apply when you're trying to stack, say, a circumstance bonus and a competence bonus. Jotunbrud doesn't fall under stacking rules, because it's a binary effect - you can use the feat and thus use Large modifiers, or you can choose to not use the feat and use whatever modifiers you have without it. Basically, at the time of resolving the check, you and the DM need to determine what size modifier currently applies; if you claim that modifier to be something other than Large, then you are not following the text of Jotunbrud, and do not claim any benefit from that feat on that particular check.

[herrhauptmann]

Stacking rules apply when you're trying to stack, say, a circumstance bonus and a competence bonus. Jotunbrud doesn't fall under stacking rules, because it's a binary effect - you can use the feat and thus use Large modifiers, or you can choose to not use the feat and use whatever modifiers you have without it. Basically, at the time of resolving the check, you and the DM need to determine what size modifier currently applies; if you claim that modifier to be something other than Large, then you are not following the text of Jotunbrud, and do not claim any benefit from that feat on that particular check.
Yeah, both say "count as large," so there's no real stacking possible. Snowbluff was wondering our opinions on how it would work if you could actually benefit from both.

Fun.

Combat brute is a feat I was looking at well. It's bonusees are based in how far you can move a target, so it's quite synergistic.
Before I had complete champion for spirit lion, I put combat brute in all my charger builds. (Of course, I wasn't optimizing attack bonus as much, so I couldn't PA for full)
I'm a huge fan of that 'momentum swing' ability from combat brute. Giving your attacks from the round after a charge almost as many PA multipliers as your charge? Divine. If actually going the sunder route, I'd pick up deadly concussion and a Greathammer or executioner mace.

[Snowbluff]

Powerful Build counts as one size larger, not as large. You can't strictly qualify from both because Goliath are not humans and therefore not be Jotunbrud.

[herrhauptmann]

Powerful Build counts as one size larger, not as large.
Eep, reading fail on my part when I checked the halfgiant earlier today. Thought I read 'count as large.'

[Snowbluff]

Eep, reading fail on my part when I checked the halfgiant earlier today. Thought I read 'count as large.'

Half giant might read differently. I'll check.

Edit: Nope. Neither race says it counts as large. I heard tere might be a different definition, but I have not seen it used.

Deadly Concusion is 333, right?

[Zombulian]

Half giant might read differently. I'll check.

Edit: Nope. Neither race says it counts as large. I heard tere might be a different definition, but I have not seen it used.

Deadly Concusion is 333, right?

According to the internet yes.

[herrhauptmann]

Half giant might read differently. I'll check.

Edit: Nope. Neither race says it counts as large. I heard tere might be a different definition, but I have not seen it used.

Deadly Concusion is 333, right?

Page 88.
It's a shame about deadly concussion, it says "sunders armor or shield" and deal damage to the wearer. But you can't sunder armor normally.
I want to say it's a case of specific trumps general, but most DMs don't go along with that. So it really only becomes useful against shields.

That said, with combat brute, it's nice.
Charge and break a shield with a mace/hammer, and deal equal damage to the wielder. Then get a sundering cleave on the wielder, with all the same bonuses as the sunder. Which I read as including the +4 from imp sunder.

[Greenish]

An interesting bit of 3.5 trivia is that Powerful Build is among the most consistent of abilities. All of its incarnations (or at least the four that I know of) are essentially identical.

[Gwendol]

Powerful Build counts as one size larger, not as large. You can't strictly qualify from both because Goliath are not humans and therefore not be Jotunbrud.

Powerful build counts as a size larger and it specifically stacks with any size increase of the creature. Jotunbrud is worded differently, hence the stacking is plausible.

[Shloogorgh]

An interesting bit of 3.5 trivia is that Powerful Build is among the most consistent of abilities. All of its incarnations (or at least the four that I know of) are essentially identical.

I only know of Goliath and half giant. What are the other two? Are you counting jotunbrud as one?

[Greenish]

I only know of Goliath and half giant. What are the other two? Are you counting jotunbrud as one?Goliath, Half-Giant, Eneko (SoS), and Redcap (MMIII).

[Zombulian]

Goliath, Half-Giant, Eneko (SoS), and Redcap (MMIII).

Ooh Eneko. Haven't seen that before.

[Curmudgeon]

Goliath, Half-Giant, Eneko (SoS), and Redcap (MMIII).
There's also Stonebone Creature template (Dragon # 350, page 36) to get Powerful Build. It's LA +2, and the Powerful Build is consistent with the other versions.

[hisnamehere]

Note: Jotunbrud states, "You are descended from the giants..." Therefore, you can stack it on neither half-giants nor eneko.

[Yuki Akuma]

Note: Jotunbrud states, "You are descended from the giants..." Therefore, you can stack it on neither half-giants nor eneko.

You can give something the Celestial and Half-Celestial templates at the same time.

Your statement is invalid.

[Zombulian]

Note: Jotunbrud states, "You are descended from the giants..." Therefore, you can stack it on neither half-giants nor eneko.

Dis foo, akkin like common sense and RAW interact.

[Greenish]

There's also Stonebone Creature template (Dragon # 350, page 36) to get Powerful Build. It's LA +2, and the Powerful Build is consistent with the other versions.Huh, you can always learn something new. Cheers.


Note: Jotunbrud states, "You are descended from the giants..." Therefore, you can stack it on neither half-giants nor eneko.Are you saying half-giants are not descended from giants?

[Melcar]

I have got to ask. I have seen more than once, that peple say that Jotunbrud gives an added bonus to damage. Now I have read the feat like 10 times now, and I cant see how it would give any damage bonus.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114205


Can someone please explain that?

[Zombulian]

I have got to ask. I have seen more than once, that peple say that Jotunbrud gives an added bonus to damage. Now I have read the feat like 10 times now, and I cant see how it would give any damage bonus.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114205


Can someone please explain that?

This just seems plain wrong to me. I didn't read all the way through that thread, but it seems to assume some things about Jotunbrud that are just wrong.

[herrhauptmann]

I have got to ask. I have seen more than once, that peple say that Jotunbrud gives an added bonus to damage. Now I have read the feat like 10 times now, and I cant see how it would give any damage bonus.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114205


Can someone please explain that?

There's no bonus to damage. As i say in each thread, joutunbrud is not powerful uild.

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Melcar]

There's no bonus to damage. As i say in each thread, joutunbrud is not powerful uild.

That guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ok... Even if it was Jotunbrud = Powerful Build, that wouldn't give extradamage right? It would make you be able to pick up a bigger weapon, but besides that, you dont get any extra damage... right?

[Zombulian]

Ok... Even if it was Jotunbrud = Powerful Build, that wouldn't give extradamage right? It would make you be able to pick up a bigger weapon, but besides that, you dont get any extra damage... right?

Well the damage that they're talking about is the increased average damage of picking up a larger weapon. But these people obviously didn't go and look up that feat.