Party Stealth vs. Groups Guidance

[Juantanamo]

Hey all - long time lurker posting for ideas here.

Background: I just started a new campaign last night, low-op, lv 1, low magic, crappy world, novice players who are 100% PHB. I'm only a novice DM myself really. So keep that in mind...

The Situation: The party consists of a Monk, 2 Rangers, and a Rogue. All have good Hide/MS and Spot/Lis skills. This results in a party that is front-line weaker but very good at ambush/detecting in advance. This synergizes well with favored enemy, Sneak Attack, ranged attacks and has already worked fine for them. So I'm rolling with it and everyone is having fun.

My dilemma is this. If I make all four of them roll H/MS vs an enemy group who all roll spots/listens... statistically they will get caught every time. So is there a "group stealth" mechanic I could utilize to...
A) keep down the ridiculous amount of rolling AND...
B) make the stealth aspect more balanced overall

I'm sure this has been addressed in the past, but I just can't seem to find it. Thanks!
-J

[Galvin]

It does not mean they will be caught every time. If they all have max ranks in it and say, 2 or 3 dexterity bonus, they should all have around plus 7, before racial modifiers.

Most enemies do not have anything in spot and listen, giving them only plus 1 or 2 bonuses.

Since you said you were a novice DM so I'm not sure if you know this, but an enemy that is actively looking for opponents does not roll a spot or listen as normal, he take ten. So really they only have to beat a DC 11 or 12.

I don't know if there is actually a group stealth, but my group rolls our own sneaking stuff, and I like it that way. Once I got a 0 and a 1 on my Hide and MS. Stupid Armor Check Penalty....

[Deophaun]

Make sure you and your players understand the value of taking 10. Basically, guards are taking 10 on their spot checks unless they have an IC reason to roll. People who aren't guards are distracted from spotting, so they take a -5 penalty. Same thing for listening. If you're a guard, you take 10. If you aren't paying attention, the DC goes up by 5. If there's ambient noise, you add another 5 to the DC.

Also pay attention to the distance penalties. -1 for 10 feet of distance. Coupled with the penalties above, people who aren't actually looking for the characters are almost not even worth rolling for.

So that should cap the best spotters/listeners in a group at 10+Modifier. If your group beats that, they're golden.

[Juantanamo]

Perfect. I knew I was missing something there. Both of those concepts (auto-take-10 for guards/party and the distance penalties) will dramatically change the "lucky roll" odds.

In games I've played, every DM has done it differently (and never to my liking). Bu this taking the variability out of it will be a boon to both players and DM alike. Thanks for the explanation.
-J

[awa]

people always forget the distraction penalty.

also keep in mind just because someone hears footsteps the average response in most situations is not to immediately assume intruders.

[HalfQuart]

Also pay attention to the distance penalties. -1 for 10 feet of distance. Coupled with the penalties above, people who aren't actually looking for the characters are almost not even worth rolling for.
The RAW distance rules for spot and listen are pretty dumb. Curmudgeon has some good house rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12871785&postcount=3) that I like much better.

[Deophaun]

The RAW distance rules for spot and listen are pretty dumb.
They're more often misapplied, as people try to use Spot for things like seeing a city in the distance or a group of people in broad daylight walking on the other side of an empty field. Spot just doesn't work that way.

Spot checks are only needed if something is hiding or difficult to see. Under those situations, you make a Spot check, which may or may not have distance penalties. Similarly, a Spot check "may" be required to determine when an encounter starts, not "is" required. If you're dealing with terrain where hiding is possible, which is the default assumption of the game, the Spot rules in the SRD are perfectly fine. If you have an unobstructed view to something far away that there's a probable chance of overlooking, then you use the rules in Stormwrack (which gives you distances far greater than Curmudgeon's house rules). Otherwise, if there's no way it could be missed, you don't bother with the check; you just see it.

[GreenETC]

They could also eventually use the Infiltration Teamwork Benefit to move together as a unit, though the chances of that are unlikely.