Paladinzilla vs Clericzilla (3.5)

[Glenn.Goldenrod]

So recently I found two builds. One for a Paladinzilla and one for a Clericzilla.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Paladinzilla_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Clericzilla_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)

I want to test one out in this newest campaign I'm starting tomorrow but I can't decide which one to choose. Which one do you guys think is the best?
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5o4ta03xg1qge1r3o1_500.jpg

[Eldariel]

Well, Clericzilla is way stronger if that's what you're asking; it gets at least as good numbers (usually better) and adds on full 9 level spellcasting (including the ability to alter reality, gate in outsiders forced to obey, modify terrain, etc.). To boot they have interchangeable fluff.

Though that build is pretty mediocre all things considered. Radiant Servant sucks beyond level 5-6 and stuff like Contemplative, Sacred Exorcist, Divine Disciple & co. would give much useful abilities instead.

[Aemoh87]

Well, Clericzilla is way stronger if that's what you're asking; it gets at least as good numbers (usually better) and adds on full 9 level spellcasting (including the ability to alter reality, gate in outsiders forced to obey, modify terrain, etc.). To boot they have interchangeable fluff.

With that said don't play it unless you are with other power gamers. CoDzilla is fun and my favorite class, but if you make optimal choices with it you quickly become unstoppable by anything remotely near your CR. Which leads to DM frustration oddly built encounters and encountering DM cheese which is a war crime I might add.

[Glenn.Goldenrod]

With that said don't play it unless you are with other power gamers. CoDzilla is fun and my favorite class, but if you make optimal choices with it you quickly become unstoppable by anything remotely near your CR. Which leads to DM frustration oddly built encounters and encountering DM cheese which is a war crime I might add.

Well I'm not the brightest box in the crayon but so maybe I won't really know how to use the class to it's full potential.

[eggynack]

I can't actually see either build, so I'm just going to say that it's the cleric by a landslide. What can the paladin really get over the cleric? Some inspire courage optimization, and a few wizard spells? It's never going to be enough, because the paladin is always going to be engaging the cleric on the cleric's turf. The cleric could even pop into prestige paladin and pick up the few paladin spells that aren't already on its list. If by "best" you mean "worst", because the party is of a low general optimization level, perhaps the paladin is the best bet. However, for any meaning of best that's related to power, the cleric will come out on top.

[Firechanter]

Between these two builds, Clericzilla is clearly the superior choice. Actually I can't see anything "zilla" about the Paladin. It's a Paladin with a Fighter PrC who wastes slots on Weapon-specific feats and cannot cast spells at all. Oh and he can spice up _four single attacks per day_, be still my beating heart.

Btw, note the absurd ability scores given in the build sheet. That would require a PB43, if I'm not mistaken. As a rule of thumb, never trust builds that require or assume insane starting stats.

As for the Cleric build, it's a (by today's standards) conservative but solid DMM-Persist shtick. Can't really go wrong with that. Your melee offense is _marginally_ weaker than the Paladin's, due to lower Str score and lacking bonus feats. In turn, you get _full_ primary spellcasting.

There's simply no contest between these two. Do note that there are even more optimized Clericzilla builds out there, but this one will serve you just fine -- I played a very similar one myself and had a lot of fun with it.

--

edit: for those who can't open the pages: try closing the parantheses in the URL. ;)

[Eldariel]

A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689) is a good bet if you want a Paladinzilla. You need to be an Illumian [Races of Destiny] but other than that it's a pretty solid setup that makes the best of what the class has to offer (complete with some alternate class features). It's still no Cleric but it's pretty good at what it does.

[Snowbluff]

With that said don't play it unless you are with other power gamers. CoDzilla is fun and my favorite class, but if you make optimal choices with it you quickly become unstoppable by anything remotely near your CR. Which leads to DM frustration oddly built encounters and encountering DM cheese which is a war crime I might add.

War crime? Pfft, I never signed at that convention.

[Firechanter]

A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29110689) is a good bet if you want a Paladinzilla. You need to be an Illumian [Races of Destiny] but other than that it's a pretty solid setup that makes the best of what the class has to offer (complete with some alternate class features). It's still no Cleric but it's pretty good at what it does.

I'll chime in here and say that the full monty "A-Game Paladin" is an excellent concept, although it requires a very lenient / nice DM to pull off (as written, you need to be in two knightly orders and follow two patron deities). If that is not in, I'd recommend choosing the Harmonious Knight ACF, which swaps out your silly Smites for a Bard's full Inspire Courage progression.

Also, while Illumian yields the maximum effect, you can also pull it off as Human. Your CL will be a bit worse and you can't reduce your MAD, but it's still far from bad.

[eggynack]

edit: for those who can't open the pages: try closing the parantheses in the URL. ;)
I just found the thing by doing the thing the website says. The paladin build is surprisingly lame, given that it doesn't make use of either paladin trick I was referencing. It doesn't even seem to make use of any ACF's, or Sword of the Arcane Order, which is crazy, because those're basically the only ways for a paladin to do anything. The build doesn't look like it even has battle blessing, and that's just basic. The cleric build doesn't look too hot either, but at least it's a cleric. Also, that limitation involving a cleric of Pelor being unable to take the planning domain seems like a big one to me. RSoP isn't even that zillaish, so just pick up an ideal, and get the Undeath domain from the Spell Compendium page 281 while you're at it.

[Firechanter]

The build doesn't look like it even has battle blessing, and that's just basic.

What should it use Battle Blessing for, when it can't cast spells at all due to low Wis? :p


RSoP isn't even that zillaish, so just pick up an ideal, and get the Undeath domain from the Spell Compendium page 281 while you're at it.

RSoP is a nice solid PrC, sure there are more powerful but iirc it's still a +1 PrC, with easy entry, 10/10 casting and Martial Weapons, which makes it attractive for Clericzillas. I know there are more optimized builds out there, but my Persist-Cleric (not fashioned after this build, but also with RsoP, or in my case, RSoLathander) worked just fine and was easily the best Melee in the party.

[eggynack]

What should it use Battle Blessing for, when it can't cast spells at all due to low Wis? :p
Wait, what? Oh god, why? I guess the build could use the mentioned (lesser, seriously) aasimar, and get a periapt before problems come, but still.




RSoP is a nice solid PrC, sure there are more powerful but iirc it's still a +1 PrC, with easy entry, 10/10 casting and Martial Weapons, which makes it attractive for Clericzillas. I know there are more optimized builds out there, but my Persist-Cleric (not fashioned after this build, but also with RsoP, or in my case, RSoLathander) worked just fine and was easily the best Melee in the party.
I like the class. It just doesn't really fit, and it's barely the end all and be all of clericzilladom. You're really incredibly obviously not going to be anywhere close to sub-par in melee, but it's not the best. Anyways, my issue is that the class forces the character to worship Pelor, and the character still takes the planning domain. The build mentions that, but seriously, the character's breaking the rules to get into this PrC. That is not worth it. There's some sort of moral here about picking your battles, and saving your attempts at changing the rules for when it really matters, but what it comes down to is that this class would need to be utterly vital to clericzilla builds to warrant a maneuver like that, and it's not.

[Komatik]

Someone once summarized dandwiki thusly "a wretched hive of scum, villainy and bad homebrew". Given them calling a 10 Wis Paladin with no Wiz casting optimized...

[Firechanter]

Anyways, my issue is that the class forces the character to worship Pelor, and the character still takes the planning domain. The build mentions that, but seriously, the character's breaking the rules to get into this PrC. That is not worth it.

I hear you. Maybe this build was originally created for a different setting, where the Pelor-equivalent deity did offer Sun and Planning, or their DM simply allows to choose Domains from across the board regardless of deity, or the build was actually never played at all, and whoever wrote it didn't think it through.
(tbh, most of the dandwiki CO builds seem to fall in the third category, depending on houserule stuff to function at all.)

As you said, RSoP is in no way vital to playing Clericzilla; you can even go straight Cleric without PrC and it will still work. As such, it might not be the worst way to go as a relatively inexperienced player.

[Eldariel]

Someone once summarized dandwiki thusly "a wretched hive of scum, villainy and bad homebrew". Given them calling a 10 Wis Paladin with no Wiz casting optimized...

There's some decent stuff there too (indeed, stuff written by old 339-dwellers, more or less the apex of 3.5 optimization), but their problem is they have no quality control so someone can go upload stuff like this Clericzilla or Paladinzilla and call them "optimized" (which they are not within a 10 mile radius from) and "legal" (which they're not).

[Radar]

There's some decent stuff there too (indeed, stuff written by old 339-dwellers, more or less the apex of 3.5 optimization), but their problem is they have no quality control so someone can go upload stuff like this Clericzilla or Paladinzilla and call them "optimized" (which they are not within a 10 mile radius from) and "legal" (which they're not).
The problem is, if you are experianced enough to distinguish between legitimately good entries and misguided attempts at "fixing D&D", then you probably don't need to consult the site at all. I've learned to avoid the site like a plague.

As for the choice between a Paladin (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) and a Cleric (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0), there are very extensive handbooks on those classes (linked in the class names). Short version:

1. Paladins can make a very strong chargers, but it usualy requires a mount, which sometimes is a problem - there are palces, where you can't go mounted. Obviously you could pick a small race and some medium-sized mount (even a flying one, for added mobility). Anything else, the Cleric can do better.

2. Clerics are powerful in meele thanks to a boatload of buffs available to them. Without Divine Metamagic it is however a bit more difficult to keep all those spells goin through a whole day of adventuring. Plus, they are full casters, so they aren't one trick ponies as the typical chargers.

[Eldariel]

The problem is, if you are experianced enough to distinguish between legitimately good entries and misguided attempts at "fixing D&D", then you probably don't need to consult the site at all. I've learned to avoid the site like a plague.

Aye, this was my point as well; since it lacks differentiation between "****" and "quality", the people who don't know what they're doing might get either **** or quality depending on their luck and the people who know what they're doing don't need the whole resource. This leads to a fairly dominant "GG" far as the utility of the site goes.