How do you write low CR encounters?

[Pentagon]

Hey all,

I'm writing a campaign that will stem from lvl 1 to hopefully might higher. I am at a cross of opinions when writing low CR encounters.

E.g an orc is cr 1/2 meaning two orcs is a Cr1 encounter. They don't really seem in any way a match for a team of 4 level 1 players. Assuming two player go before them in the initiative roll an orc is most likely dead having 5hp each... nearly any melee attack will one shot them.

As a GM attempting to entertain my players, they'd laugh at me if I sent two orcs after them as a whole encounter...

Equally, if you push the difficulty up too much then you risk killing the oh so vulnerable players off. Also, trying to have named characters, sergeants etc. makes things even harder!

Any idea's

[Elricaltovilla]

An equal level encounter is only supposed to use up 25% of a party's resources. A CR 1 enemy (supposedly) has a 50% chance of defeating a single level 1 character.

So 2 CR 1/2 Orcs is "laughable", but the party is supposed to fight 3 more CR 1 battles that day, losing more and more spells, HP, items, etc as the day wears on.

It's also worth noting that an Orc has a pretty good chance of critting and killing an enemy. Wizards have D4 hit dice, which means that with 12 con, they have 5 HP at level 1.

[Flickerdart]

Using more weaker monsters is generally better. Sure, one hit might kill the kobold, but 20hp of damage will still only kill it once, and there are five other ones. On the other hand, if the kobold gets a lucky crit, the damage isn't so serious as to instantly kill a PC.

[Pentagon]

But the wizard has the buffer zone of -10 to protect him. But i'm not convinced that without a surprise round the orcs would get to attack.

[Aracor]

Again, why would you expect a CR 1 challenge to have a chance of defeating 4 level 1 players? It shouldn't. They should be able to win fairly handily.

However, it will force them to expend resources to do it...hit points, spell slots, magic items, whatever. A typical party of four characters should expect to be able to defeat four CR 1 encounters. So they should be able to beat two orcs. Followed by two more orcs later that day. Followed by another two orcs. By this point, they should be weaker. Low on hit points, low on spell slots, and probably worried about how many more orcs are around.

[Palanan]

If you're willing to consider other antagonists beyond orcs, I can offer a couple of my favorite low-level creatures:


1. The fetid fungus, from Monster Manual V (pp. 56-57), which I've had fun with even when the party is seventh or eighth level. They have several ways of dealing acid damage, and the DM has the option of making sploorching noises as they lumber across to attack.

Somewhat silly in all respects, but could be a moderate challenge for a first-level group. Send in one, see how they do, and then let them uncover a full colony.

2. Much more sinister is the tsochari strand, from Lords of Madness (p. 125). A full-grown tsochar is composed of many such strands (the quaggoths in a campaign of mine called it the "many-snake") and is a creepy-tough threat that would messily annihilate a first-level party in short order.

A single strand, however, is only CR 0.5, so again you can send in one or two, gauge the party's response, and hit them with several more when they're not expecting them. A few isolated tsochari strands aren't an overwhelming threat even for a starting group, but they're strangely unnatural even so, and make for some nice foreshadowing if you want to throw in some full tsochari a few levels on.
.

[DeltaEmil]

Wing it, and pray for the best that it somehow works without being a TPK or a cakewalk.

Alternatively, use groups of kobolds first for level 1, then groups of goblins at level 2, halfling or gnomes for a level 3 party, and then groups of orcs, human warriors, elf warriors and dwarf warriors at level 4.

More enemies = a wee bit more chance for everyone to shine, unless the party spellcasters are optimized and know how to most efficiently use spells.

If you really want to use the borked Challenge Rating system and believe it to work, then the d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) might at least help you speed up the process.

[Elricaltovilla]

But the wizard has the buffer zone of -10 to protect him. But i'm not convinced that without a surprise round the orcs would get to attack.

So the wizard has a buffer zone? But you were worried about killing off players with higher level enemies?

An Orc with a Falchion does an average of 9 damage per hit, and has a 15% chance to crit. That orc can take down your wizard nearly twice over, and what are the chances of your entire party going before both of the orcs? Your bog standard Rogue and wizard probably will go first, but there's no guarantee that either of them will kill an orc right off the bat, and if they don't then they run the risk of dying horribly to a charging falchion to the face.

[Flickerdart]

If you're concerned about survivability, give the orcs different gear. As Warriors, they are proficient with all armour and all shields, so swapping their studded leather and falchion for banded mail, heavy shield, and battleaxe makes them much better at surviving (net +5 to AC) while lowering their deadliness (1d8+3 damage - average 7.5 as opposed to 9, with a less frequent critical hit). You can also consider reshuffling their ability scores to make them better at throwing javelins (put their 13 in Dexterity instead of Strength) to keep them out of melee for longer.

[Keneth]

Just throw a Monstrous Crab at them. A group of decent 1st level characters should have no trouble defeating a CR 3 monster. :smalltongue:

[Komatik]

Just throw a Monstrous Crab at them. A group of decent 1st level characters should have no trouble defeating a CR 3 monster. :smalltongue:

Always advance That Damn Crab. Everyone loves a Pseudonatural, Paragon Cthulhucrab.

...seriously, though? Do not advance That Damn Crab. And don't throw it on a CR3 party. Their raison d'etre is TPK-ing Level 3 parties.

[Pentagon]

Hmm, I think my main problem is the role of Initiative at low levels.

I only used orcs as an example, I'm going to look up all the monsters suggested, and yeah I'm looking at giving them shields etc.

The threat of killing players isn't a fear of them being one shotted, but that 10pt buffer doesn't come in until your knocked out. At which point the parties damage decreases by 25% meaning that they're less likely to kill all the baddies. Of course if all the players are knocked out they are at the mercy of being taken prisoner or coup de graced, rescued etc.

So Initiative is much more important, when monsters can be one shotted or players can be, the roll of initiative is super important as to who gets to strike first. Option A. the Two half CR monsters kill a player, option B: the players kill them before they get to strike. neither of which is particularly desirable.

Of course if that happens and the players kill both before they get to strike the players have expended no resources if they do it with just melee attacks.

Has anyone had much experience with having the players in bigger combats with allied militia holding off larger numbers of baddies?

But yeah... I agree that the CR rating is somewhat lacking, though useful as a guideline.

[Telonius]

Personally, I don't worry too much about the difficulty of the first couple of encounters. At the very beginning of a campaign, I try to make the focus on the plot and storytelling, to get the players caring about the gaming world and what's happening in it. That first CR 1 encounter is a plot hook, not a serious threat to life and limb. More like, "The quest-giver's best friend is getting mugged in the street by Random Thug A, B, and C," something like that.

[Keneth]

Initiative is always one of the most important factors, not just at low-levels. Optimized characters will one-shot stuff at any level.

Putting that aside, you can easily ensure that the initiative doesn't become a deciding factor at lower levels by way of terrain and positioning. Not every fight should start in the open with less than 30 feet between the PCs and their opponents (in fact, an exceedingly few should start that way).

[Immabozo]

With crayons.

[johnbragg]

Another thing that's always fun is to find (or in a pinch homebrew) very weak (killable) monsters--with minor ability draining effects. A bunch of 1/4 HD snakes wont kill the party, but they could very well get in some shots that put PCs down a few Con points.

Another tip is to have 1HD humanoids not fight suicidally. The PCs suprise one goblin who runs screaming down a corridor, (or at least turns and screams before he's cut down), very likely leading your PCs into an ambush by his two friends with spears. Or just have the monsters fight to damage the PCs, and then run to fight another day.

[Dr. Yes]

Honestly, your best tool for ensuring appropriately balanced encounters at any level is the GM screen. The ability to make ad hoc adjustments to things like monster HP and damage rolls ensures that your encounters are exactly as threatening or trivial as they need to be.

[Mirakk]

With crayons.


Hahaha, awesome. Thank you for this. Very insightful.

[Segev]

Use tactics, too. Not to excess, but still, a pair of orcs are not completely inept at assessing the threat of a 4-man adventuring party. Don't have them engage without setting things up a little to their advantage. If the party runs across a pair of orc guards, then the orcs are in a defensible position and should use tactics to flank while avoiding being flanked. If it's a pair of orc bandits on the road, they should be attempting to hide until the party has its most vulnerable member(s) exposed, and rush in to flank them with a surprise round.

Obviously, non-exhausted resources such as melee attacks and spot and listen checks can thwart these, but those operate on a "odds of success" metric. For every 3 orc duos easily thwarted by the odds going in the party's favor, there should be roughly 1 orc duo who successfully get the drop on them and seriously endanger at least one PC (and possibly the whole party if luck's a little on their side as they take out a PC quickly and move on to threatening another).

The reason it's a duo of orcs against a 4-man party is precisely so that, in the event of that 1-in-4 "lucky orcs" scenario, the party still will beat them...it just puts them in "gotta rest" mode and makes future encounters for the day less...desirable.

[Immabozo]

Hahaha, awesome. Thank you for this. Very insightful.

I am glad to be of assistance!

[Harlot]

I've just DM'ed a party from below level 1 to 6.
Some things I found useful:

Backup: Some animals hunt in packs. If it looks like the party is going to roflstomp your creatures, let the creatures mother/pack/friends join the encounter 2-3 rounds in (ask the party to roll spot/listen checks the round before, so they may know whats coming.
(just don't us this technique too often, it gets old fast. But very handy in the beginning when you have to tune in to the appropriate encounterlevel)

Blood smell: They slay some monster and decide to camp near the carcass. Maybe bring some of the meat with them for rations? Fine: The smell attracts vermin or scavengers

Swarms: Rats are ... challenge rating 1/8th or something... 30 rats are ... interesting...

Poison/disease: It may be real easy to slay a direrat, but the filth fewer fortitude save is DC 11, which may cause problems on lower levels

As mentioned elsewhere: several small and easy encounters (like harassing goblins) every hour for 8 hours: Resources are used and magic user lacks sleep = less spells available

And I have to agree with DR.Yes in here: The DM screen is your friend.
I can't count the times I've level adjusted some creature on the fly (level creatures up or down a few levels by adding or subtracting 1 per level to all attacks, defenses, and damage and adding or subtracting 10 from their hit points per level.) because the party had too much of a good time slicing n' dicing...

I wish you a great campaign. Do enjoy yourself
/Harlot

[Zanos]

But the wizard has the buffer zone of -10 to protect him. But i'm not convinced that without a surprise round the orcs would get to attack.

You're concerned that a CR appropriate encounter isn't going to end up with a monster straight out killing a PC in one attack?

As others have said, the party should face four CR = Party level encounters a day. A single hit from an orc will down someone with a low Hit Die, or will take out around half of a tankier classes health. Also AC actually matters at this level, a 16 str fighter misses a 13 AC orc 40% of the time. If they use spells to heal or the wizard uses something like grease to make the fight easier, then those are consumed resources for the day. A level 1 wizard only has 2 or 3 first level spells per day.

[John Longarrow]

Five aspects to setting up encounters that are important at low levels

1) Range. Use opposed SPOT checks to see who spots who first and at what range. Use this to determine who gets to start working into a good position.

2) Ranged combat. Most monsters that can one shot the fighter can't do it from distance. Let the fight start with the PCs/Monsters getting some ranged combat in to soften things up.

3) Special attacks. Pack hunters like wolves get a free trip attack. If they come at the party from range (read moving a double move as part of a charge) they can get in and take a PC down early.

4) Terrain. Depending on the terrain (hills/ravines/brush/etc..) either side can get concealment/cover from the other and put difficult terrain between the two groups. This can dramatically change how a fight goes.

5) Reasonable enemies. If two orcs charge the fighter (one getting their attack as a flank) they have a good chance of dropping/killing a first level fighter. If they are wielding glaives while wearing gauntlets (can attack with reach OR adjacent with an iron fist) you can use monsters to teach your players about different tactical options. Said Orcs should run if one is dropped or badly wounded though. Teach your players that not every fight is to the death from the beginning and they may remember that when they are getting eaten by a nasty.

[Rosstin]

As people have said, just use a bunch of low level enemies. Have them ambush the players if they can through hiding behind some rocks on a path or whatnot. They use ranged attacks against the party, and are far enough and enough of them that they don't get killed in one round. Done. Kobolds with crossbows and slings whatnot would be fine.

[ericgrau]

As others touched on CR 1 is supposed to be easy. CR 3 would be challenging.

Even so I wouldn't usually use orcs at level 1. I'd use a larger number of weaker foes. Yes, usually the 2 orcs are just as easy as any other CR 1 mix. Other times a PC dies by bad luck. If your players have long back stories this is inconvenient. If OTOH they don't care and they have a backup character ready to go, then nevermind. Not that there shouldn't be risk of failure in a game, but it would be nicer if it came down to more than one roll.

And I like John Longarrow's ideas regardless of the level.