Roy Greenhilt's Lawful Good Adventure Party

[UtahBrian]

Roy's alignment is lawful good. An adventurer can lead a team with more alignments than just his own, of course. In fact, some diversity can be useful in dealing with circumstances and allies with varying world views.

But Roy finds himself in a peculiar arrangement. His team is now arrayed as far away against his alignment as they could possibly be.

*Elan is chaotic good
*Haley claims to be trying chaotic good but comports herself as chaotic neutral
*Belkar is chaotic evil
*Vaarsuvius was officially neutral but spent several hundred strips on the bullet train to neutral evil
*Durkula is lawful evil

So every directly opposed alignment is active on Roy's team and none of his alignment allies or even neighbors are working with him anymore.

Roy's pragmatic enough to deal with it for a while, though the long term consequences might be tougher for him. I wonder what the bureaucracy in the LG afterlife will think.

[martianmister]

At least he's not a paladin...There should be no problem.

[ChaosArchon]

At least he's not a paladin...There should be no problem.
However their Sapphire Guard allies are... drama at the next gate perhaps?

[martianmister]

However their Sapphire Guard allies are... drama at the next gate perhaps?

Let's hope O-Chul will do what he promised do to Belkar...

[Oko and Qailee]

Roy's pragmatic enough to deal with it for a while, though the long term consequences might be tougher for him. I wonder what the bureaucracy in the LG afterlife will think.

TBH, I think he'll be ok as long as he complete's his quest. After that is where he has to take a lawful approach to his teammates.

TBH Roy is LG, but for me he seems to prioritize good over lawful, and I think he'll be fine.

[Scow2]

Varsuvius is Neutral with 6-18 seconds of "I really ****ed up there." (Maybe a few minutes, if you count the ENTIRE deal - but most of that was Neutral/Good acts with Good intentions through Evil means).

Of course, I question the "Chaotic" aspect of Elan's "Chaotic Good", just like I question the "Lawful" aspect of Nale's "Lawful Evil." He seems to put too much importance on narrative convention and, in several arcs (Notably DStP), Due Process of Law.

[Sabeki]

Actually, it never made sense to me why he didn't kill Kabuto. Sure, he surrendered, but Elan's chaotic, he has no real obligation to play fair on the villains terms, especially when he killed Therkla.

[Gift Jeraff]

Actually, it never made sense to me why he didn't kill Kabuto. Sure, he surrendered, but Elan's chaotic, he has no real obligation to play fair on the villains terms, especially when he killed Therkla.

Elan doesn't kill prisoners. Period.

[Sylian]

Sure, he surrendered, but Elan's chaotic, he has no real obligation to play fair on the villains terms, especially when he killed Therkla.Elan is Good, which implies respect for life. Killing an enemy who has surrendered? That seems like something Belkar would do, not Elan.

[FujinAkari]

*Haley claims to be trying chaotic good but comports herself as chaotic neutral

Citation needed.


*Vaarsuvius was officially neutral but spent several hundred strips on the bullet train to neutral evil

Incorrect. Vaarsuvius spent about 2 strips committing overwhelmingly evil acts.


*Durkula is lawful evil

There is no such character.

[Porthos]

*Haley claims to be trying chaotic good but comports herself as chaotic neutral


She does? Not in the last, oh say, 700 strips or so. Definitely not in the last 500.

As for the snipped part, I don't think Roy's going to have much trouble on a re-entry exam given his actions post-Strip 500.


Of course, I question the "Chaotic" aspect of Elan's "Chaotic Good", just like I question the "Lawful" aspect of Nale's "Lawful Evil." He seems to put too much importance on narrative convention and, in several arcs (Notably DStP), Due Process of Law.

Sigh.

Just as Being Lawful Good Doesn't Necessarily Mean Having To Follow The Law, Being Chaotic Good Doesn't Necessarily Mean Having To Reject The Law.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Alignments Are NOT Straightjackets.

Elan respects Due Process of Law, sort of, because he's been trained to think that is a Good thing to do. Moreover, he was, at the time, in a society that he respected. If he didn't think very highly of Hinjo's rule he might not have been as willing to respect it. He certainly doesn't respect the Due Process of Tarquin's Law, for instance.

To put it another way, executing people without trial is an Evil thing from Elan's perspective. It has little to do with the Law/Chaos angle.

Compare/contrast to Durkon who tells Roy that he should suck it up and do his time for breaking the law (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html). Now when Durkon found out the laws of the Empire of Blood were particularly unjust and fixed, he didn't seem to mind the idea of Roy busting out of the arena. But originally? He told Roy to suck it up and face the music.

Or to put it another way, Durkon was respecting Law while Elan was respecting Good. Durkon presumed the Law was Just while Elan presumed doing the Good thing was Just.

---

Yet another way to put this. Why someone does something can in many cases matter just as much as what they do.

A resistance group can have both a LG Paladin and a CG Ranger in it and yet want to overthrow the stereotypical Evil Usurping Regime for different reasons.

Team OotS is a good (pardon the pun) example of this. They might have different philosphical viewpoints on things, but they all agree on the overall goal that they've been faced with. That they do this for different reasons matters little in the end.

...

As long as they don't go at each other's throats like a certain band devoted to sealing tears in reality did several decades ago. :smalltongue:

[Zmeoaice]

Elan is Good, which implies respect for life. Killing an enemy who has surrendered? That seems like something Belkar would do, not Elan.

That prisoner was a murderer, committed treason, and gloated that he would have gotten off scott free. That's enough reason for a character to off them and still be considered good.



There is no such character.


Fine. Count Durkula

[Porthos]

That prisoner was a murderer, committed treason, and gloated that he would have gotten off scott free. That's enough reason for a character to off them and still be considered good.

Elan, apparently, disagress. I suggest you take it up with him. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

There is no such character.
I see that when Vampire Durkon comes through the fourth wall and wreaks horrible vengeance on everyone who has called him something goofy since he became a vampire, FujinAkari will be spared.

[Porthos]

I see that when Vampire Durkon comes through the fourth wall and wreaks horrible vengeance on everyone who has called him something goofy since he became a vampire, FujinAkari will be spared.

*triple dog dares Kish to go to a mirror and say 'Durkula' five times* :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

That prisoner was a murderer, committed treason, and gloated that he would have gotten off scott free. That's enough reason for a character to off them and still be considered good.

Sure. But not Elan's personal definition of good, and since that definition is what matters for Elan, if not necessarily for the rest of us, that is why he didn't do it.

[Math_Mage]

*Elan is chaotic good
*Haley claims to be trying chaotic good but comports herself as chaotic neutral
*Belkar is chaotic evil
*Vaarsuvius was officially neutral but spent several hundred strips on the bullet train to neutral evil
*Durkula is lawful evil

So every directly opposed alignment is active on Roy's team and none of his alignment allies or even neighbors are working with him anymore.

Roy's pragmatic enough to deal with it for a while, though the long term consequences might be tougher for him. I wonder what the bureaucracy in the LG afterlife will think.
It's not like the alignment situation was much better at the beginning of the comic. The only difference was Roy happened to have a silent partner in his camp. So the bureaucracy's thinking probably hasn't changed one bit.

In fact...V was briefly awful when Roy had no control over him, but has been better since then (if you'll pardon the flagrant simplification of her ongoing redemption arc). Haley's gotten better. Belkar's gotten better. Elan now actually has an alignment other than True Stupid. Apart from Durkon's vamping, I'd say this is an improvement overall.

[Zmeoaice]

Sure. But not Elan's personal definition of good, and since that definition is what matters for Elan, if not necessarily for the rest of us, that is why he didn't do it.

Having a stricter definition of good would make him more lawful than chaotic.

[Porthos]

Having a stricter definition of good would make him more lawful than chaotic.

No, it wouldn't. Not in the slightest. Law and Good and Chaos and Evil are all completely different subjects.

ETA::: Let me rephrase this. A Chaotic Good person wouldn't say, "Gee, I've been far too rigidly Good lately. Good good good. That's too predicitable. Too orderly. Too stable. I'm Chaotic gosh darn it. I better do some non-Good things otherwise I won't be Chaotic anymore."

Doesn't that seem the slightest bit... silly? :smalltongue:

[martianmister]

I see that when Vampire Durkon comes through the fourth wall and wreaks horrible vengeance on everyone who has called him something goofy since he became a vampire, FujinAkari will be spared.

Eduwarkon Culldenhield
Durferakon
Durkith Shieldillith
Andurgonal
Sduriken

[Wardog]

That prisoner was a murderer, committed treason, and gloated that he would have gotten off scott free. That's enough reason for a character to off them and still be considered good.


Yes. But that doesn't mean every Good person would be willing to do so.

(Just as "Everything that is not prohibited is compulsory" is a Lawful attitude, but plently of Lawful characters take a different view).

[jidasfire]

In a sense, it's true that Roy is more alone than ever in his party. Without loyal Durkon backing him through both his maturity and his similar morals, it could be argued that his ability to control the party, a challenge from day one, has only gotten worse. That said, I don't think it's quite as bad as it seems.

Like Roy, Elan has always put more emphasis on the good side of his alignment than on the lawful/chaotic side, so in matters of goodness, they're quite likely to stand together. The bard has also managed to prove his worth at least as often as he doesn't, and he's as loyal to Roy as they come.

Haley, while she is more chaotic than good, has the sort of friendship of contrasts with Roy where she gets him and admires all the ways that they're different, as Roy does with her. He needs her chaoticness to counterbalance his lawfulness, and in that, they work well together.

Vaarsuvius has problems aplenty as far as what s/he's done and what s/he's keeping from the party. The black dragon massacre is at least indirectly responsible for fall of Girard's Gate as well. However, Roy doesn't know this, and to his best knowledge, V is still a perfectly valuable and powerful member of the team. V is also trying to fix the problems s/he caused, albeit on his/her own. Only time will tell what V will share with the others and what the fallout from that will be.

Belkar is still Belkar, but from Roy's perspective, he's far less of a handful than he used to be. Even if Roy knows Belkar's still chaotic evil and conning the party, which he does, that still means Belkar is causing him less trouble than before. This is also coupled with Belkar's recent honest-to-goodness character growth, and the fact that Roy has started, albeit with baby steps, to trust him, as he did with the coffin plan.

And Durkon? Well, we don't yet know exactly what Durkon's vampirism means to who the dwarf is. Is he evil? The text seems to suggest so. Is he lawful? I'll say probably, since not being lawful would put a rather large strain on what's left of Durkon's personality. We don't yet know how big of a handful he's going to be for Roy, but at least at the moment, he's perfectly willing to be helpful to the cause and protect his teammates. As to how he'll handle the blood thing, we have yet to see. If he occasionally feeds on monsters his friends were going to stab to death anyway, Roy might be able to look the other way. If he'll be sneaking off into the night to murder innocents, I imagine matters will be more difficult.

So I think even given the disparate alignments of the party, Roy's position as leader is at least no more difficult than it ever was. Signficant portions of the team have come a long way in terms of development, including Roy himself.

[TheYell]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html indicates it was also a status issue. Kubota was a high-ranking bad guy and Elan wouldn't dispose of him like a mook.

[mhsmith]

I think that Elan's decision not to kill Kubota is by itself a poor alignment measure. You can easily imagine an LG or CG character killing or sparing him, for various reasons:

LG - Kill
You're evil, you've committed horrible crimes, and I'm going to take personal responsibility for this situation, including dealing with whatever consequences there may be. I'll kill you, I won't lie about it, and I'll take whatever punishment the system deems necessary.

LG - Spare
You're evil, you've committed horrible crimes, but I have to trust the courts to do justice.

CG - Kill
You're evil, you've committed horrible crimes, and I don't trust the courts to do justice. I'll probably lie about it and say that you died in combat or something.

CG - Spare
You're evil, you've committed horrible crimes, but dealing with you is going to be someone else's problem. I'm going to defer to them and not take ownership of the situation


So if you're a Good character in that situation you can justify a kill/spare decision on either law or chaos axis, since there are contradictory elements (taking responsibility and ownership of a situation that has become your own mess, or buying into the system and its rules and either trusting that they'll do the best thing or just being unwilling to break the law yourself).

[bguy]

Elan respects Due Process of Law, sort of, because he's been trained to think that is a Good thing to do. Moreover, he was, at the time, in a society that he respected. If he didn't think very highly of Hinjo's rule he might not have been as willing to respect it. He certainly doesn't respect the Due Process of Tarquin's Law, for instance.

Doesn't the fact that Elan respects the idea of Due Process suggest he has more of a Neutral Good alignment though? Elan also voluntarily accepts what he regards as legitimate authority making rules for him (i.e. allowing Roy to set his bedtime, taking off his eye-patch when ordered to do so by Hinjo, etc). That acceptance of external authority seems inconsistent with a Chaotic alignment.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Alignments Are NOT Straightjackets.
The PHB says the same thing but so few people seem to read that part.

[Domino Quartz]

Doesn't the fact that Elan respects the idea of Due Process suggest he has more of a Neutral Good alignment though? Elan also voluntarily accepts what he regards as legitimate authority making rules for him (i.e. allowing Roy to set his bedtime, taking off his eye-patch when ordered to do so by Hinjo, etc). That acceptance of external authority seems inconsistent with a Chaotic alignment.

No, because as the posts which you have apparently ignored have already explained, Chaotic does not necessarily mean "REJECT ALL AUTHORITY EVERYWHERE FOREVER," and Elan respects the Due Process of Law if he believes the Law in question is a good one. He also accepts Roy's authority because he respects Roy, and believes it is the good thing to do.

[bguy]

No, because as the posts which you have apparently ignored have already explained, Chaotic does not necessarily mean "REJECT ALL AUTHORITY EVERYWHERE FOREVER," and Elan respects the Due Process of Law if he believes the Law in question is a good one. He also accepts Roy's authority because he respects Roy, and believes it is the good thing to do.

No chaotic doesn't mean that you have to reject all authority all the time, but chaotic aligned people are generally inclined to resent authority even when that authority is benevolent. That's right in the SRD where it says chaotic characters "resent being told what to do" and that chaos can include "resentment toward legitimate authority." Elan does not exhibit either of those traits. Quite the opposite in fact as he is very deferential towards what he considers legitimate authority, which is a big mark against him being chaotic.

Also, lets consider what the SRD says on what neutrality entails:
"Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others."

That definition seems to fit Elan really well. He has a normal respect for authority in that he accepts the authority of people he respects and believes to more intelligent than he is. He certainly doesn't feel a compulsion to rebel, and he is a honest person but will lie when it is necessary for a good cause.

[mhsmith]

Looking at a box TN to CG:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaotic_Neutral

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Chaotic_Good

A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Neutral_Good

A neutral good character does the best that a good person can do. He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Neutral

A neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. She doesn’t feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil—after all, she would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, she’s not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way.
Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.


Ignoring good vs evil issues, look at the chaotic definition wrt Elan (stuff that applies to him is bolded)

A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

How about CG?
A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He makes his own way, but he’s kind and benevolent. He believes in goodness and right but has little use for laws and regulations. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He follows his own moral compass, which, although good, may not agree with that of society.

And even the "doesn't like intimidating others and telling them what to do" falls into the Elan category (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), he just doesn't outright hate it. His respect for authority by itself may suggest Neutral, but he has a whole boatload of other traits that scream Chaotic. If you think that the only legitimate way to create a CG character is to hew to this list exactly, congrats, you've found room for disagreement. But if instead you believe, as many here do, that Alignment Is Not A Straitjacket, then "hits most of these bases" ought to be a pretty good indication that he fits the alignment. But hey, if you HAVE to be a paranoid crazy person in order to play Chaotic, you can always look at Girard as your guide. His Chaotic traits are played as straight up and by the book as Miko's Lawful traits. Neither ended particularly well.

[Porthos]

That acceptance of external authority seems inconsistent with a Chaotic alignment.

Not at all because....

No, because as the posts which you have apparently ignored have already explained, Chaotic does not necessarily mean "REJECT ALL AUTHORITY EVERYWHERE FOREVER," and Elan respects the Due Process of Law if he believes the Law in question is a good one. He also accepts Roy's authority because he respects Roy, and believes it is the good thing to do.

This.

How this idea that Chaotic people can never accept any sort of structure got accepted as correct, I have no idea*. I blame the introduction of the Slaad myself. :smalltongue:

* Actually I do. It's an idiom though, so roll with it. :smalltongue:

Why does Elan accept Roy's limits? Because of personality reasons, not alignment. Roy is the father-figure older brother substitute that he's been craving his whole life. That Roy is a good person (with some rough edges, it must be admitted :smallwink:) and laudable goals makes it all the easier for Elan to accept the limits that Roy places.

But.....

Elan isn't very good at following those limits. :smallwink: He constantly presses against the envelope. In part because of his Chaotic nature. Take the eye-patch and Hinjo. Yes, he accepts the fact that Hinjo won't let him wear it. What's forgotten about is that Hinjo already told him several times to stop wearing that stupid patch, but Elan kept wearing it anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0502.html).

So, in fact, Elan is NOT a good little drone. There are plenty of other examples of him giving in to his free-spirited nature. Including recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html) :smalltongue: If he is less willing to chaff against Roy's structure than he once was in the past, it's because:

A) Roy is allowing his party members a bit more room to breathe and be themselves (outside of short time where he was grieving for Durkon)

and

B) Elan respects and likes Roy that much.

Or, to put it another way, Elan follows Roy's structure because he likes him not because he is supposed to. :smallsmile:

[KillianHawkeye]

No chaotic doesn't mean that you have to reject all authority all the time, but chaotic aligned people are generally inclined to resent authority even when that authority is benevolent. That's right in the SRD where it says chaotic characters "resent being told what to do" and that chaos can include "resentment toward legitimate authority." Elan does not exhibit either of those traits. Quite the opposite in fact as he is very deferential towards what he considers legitimate authority, which is a big mark against him being chaotic.

Well to be perfectly fair, I don't think I've EVER seen Elan express resentfulness at ANYTHING. It's just not in his character.

[factotum]

How this idea that Chaotic people can never accept any sort of structure got accepted as correct, I have no idea*.

It would certainly make for, well, *interesting* D&D societies if, on average, one-third of the people were constantly rebelling against legitimate authority and another third didn't give a damn about it... :smallwink:

[Porthos]

No chaotic doesn't mean that you have to reject all authority all the time, but chaotic aligned people are generally inclined to resent authority even when that authority is benevolent. That's right in the SRD where it says chaotic characters "resent being told what to do" and that chaos can include "resentment toward legitimate authority." Elan does not exhibit either of those traits. Quite the opposite in fact as he is very deferential towards what he considers legitimate authority, which is a big mark against him being chaotic.

Also, lets consider what the SRD says on what neutrality entails:
"Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others."

That definition seems to fit Elan really well. He has a normal respect for authority in that he accepts the authority of people he respects and believes to more intelligent than he is. He certainly doesn't feel a compulsion to rebel, and he is a honest person but will lie when it is necessary for a good cause.

The problem here, as I have alluded to, is that you are being reductionist when it comes to alignment.

I think we will agree that there are more than nine personality types in the world. Trying to reduce people to fit into nine small boxes is going to be... well impossible. :smallsmile:

Let's go back to the Elan/Roy dynamic. Elan has complained about the fact that Roy is 'mean' to him before. He's internalized a lot of it into that big-brother relationship for reasons I gave above. But he's still been as 'resentful' to use your phrase as someone like Elan can be. Not much, but it's been there. :smallwink:

But here's the thing. Roy has been treating Elan nicer and nicer and more of an equal (with the occasional highly stressed out backslide) over the span of the comic. And during that time Elan has been more willing to do what Roy wants and less acting out on his own.

Somehow do not think this is a coincidence. :smallwink:


Well to be perfectly fair, I don't think I've EVER seen Elan express resentfulness at ANYTHING. It's just not in his character.

He's talked about meanie-heads in the past (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0128.html) but that's about it. :smalltongue:

[bguy]

His respect for authority by itself may suggest Neutral, but he has a whole boatload of other traits that scream Chaotic.

Elan's respect for authority is only one of his lawful traits. He also is a very honest person, can be trusted to keep his word, takes his obligations seriously, honors tradition (bardic tradition anyway), and is generally fairly predictable in his actions. Those lawful traits of his balance out well against the chaotic traits you pointed out (though I would disagree with your claims that Elan challenges traditions and that he has little regard for what others expect of him), which is why I think he ends up as Neutral Good.


If you think that the only legitimate way to create a CG character is to hew to this list exactly, congrats, you've found room for disagreement. But if instead you believe, as many here do, that Alignment Is Not A Straitjacket, then "hits most of these bases" ought to be a pretty good indication that he fits the alignment. But hey, if you HAVE to be a paranoid crazy person in order to play Chaotic, you can always look at Girard as your guide. His Chaotic traits are played as straight up and by the book as Miko's Lawful traits. Neither ended particularly well.

You can resent external authority without being a paranoid crazy person. (See Haley and Shojo). And again I think Elan exhibits both enough strong lawful traits and strong chaotic ones that he pretty much balances out as Neutral.


Why does Elan accept Roy's limits? Because of personality reasons, not alignment. Roy is the father-figure older brother substitute that he's been craving his whole life.

Doesn't the fact that Elan is looking for a mentor like figure itself suggest an inclination against Chaos though? He wants someone to tell him what to do, be it Roy, Haley, Hinjo or Sir Francois. That does not suggest the kind of independent mindset you would expect from a Chaotic individual.


Elan isn't very good at following those limits.

Well yeah, but that's part of why he's Neutral Good rather than Lawful Good. He'll push boundaries on silly things, but at the end of the day he still cheerfully accepts Roy (and Hinjo and Sir Francois's) authority over him.

[hamishspence]

He does see himself as CG:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html

While it's possible he's wrong about his own alignment, it would be a bit of a surprise.

[Gift Jeraff]

The Giant has said Elan is "as Chaotic as they come." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15364378&postcount=36) Elan's Chaos manifests in his free-spirited wackiness.

[Porthos]

He also is a very honest person,

Chaotic people can't be honest? :smallconfused:


can be trusted to keep his word

Ditto? :smallconfused:


takes his obligations seriously, honors tradition (bardic tradition anyway), and is generally fairly predictable in his actions.

If by 'predictable' you mean Do The Right Thing or Do Something Goofy, Silly and Zany, then yes, he is predictable.

But that's a pretty silly gauge of lawfulness. If I can predict someone to be unpredictable, are they then no longer Chaotic since I can indeed predict their behavior?

See, Elan is Good. Elan is a very Good character. That sets up all sorts of predicable responses to situations. Being Chaotic doesn't enter into that equation.

====

Let me make an aside/observation. One of my biggest beefs about discussions about alignment is that people try to separate the aspects of the descriptor when it comes to alignment instead of treating it as one descriptor.

Far far too many people, and now this is a general observation and not directed at any one person, try to look at a person and say "Well, they aren't Chaotic here or they aren't Neutral there and thus they can't be X" instead of looking at it as a whole. Chaotic Good, which is what we have been talking about here, is larger than the sum of its Chaotic and Good parts. It's its own thing, distinct and different from other Chaotic or Good alignments.

All of the nine alignments are listed separately for a reason. If alignments were just a combination of two axes, D&D would have separated them into two categories (Morality and Ethics are the two proposals I've seen most often).

But they aren't. A Chaotic Good person has just as much differences with a Chaotic Neutral person as they do with a Lawful Good person. All of the nine alignments have differences with each other. This should be a self obvious statement and one that is given. But people still try to look at the components of the alignment instead of looking at it as a whole.

IMO one of the things about the Roy being interviewed by the forces of Law and Good subarc was a look at this whole notion of breaking down alignment by constituent parts.... and rejecting it for looking at it as a synthetic whole instead.

Now people being people, some will lean a bit more in one direction or another. And if you lean far too far away, you suddenly really aren't in that box anymore.

But, c'mon. Look at Elan. If HE isn't Chaotic Good, then the definition of Chaotic Good needs a serious makeover. :smalltongue:

[Math_Mage]

Elan's respect for authority is only one of his lawful traits. He also is a very honest person, can be trusted to keep his word, takes his obligations seriously, honors tradition (bardic tradition anyway), and is generally fairly predictable in his actions. Those lawful traits of his balance out well against the chaotic traits you pointed out (though I would disagree with your claims that Elan challenges traditions and that he has little regard for what others expect of him), which is why I think he ends up as Neutral Good.
Yes, very predictable. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html) Very, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html) very, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html) very (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0558.html) predictable. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) Except when he isn't. There's no dictate that a Chaotic character has to be completely unpredictable, but Elan is...what's the term the comic used again? Eccentric, right.

Elan doesn't respect authority. He respects particular individuals. He doesn't respect Roy's authority, he respects Roy. Similarly, he's honest not because My Word Is My Bond, but because lying is mean.


You can resent external authority without being a paranoid crazy person. (See Haley and Shojo).
I...uh...you should go back and look at some of the paranoid crazy things Haley and Shojo did. I mean, I don't disagree with your general point, but your examples are terrible.

[Sir_Leorik]

There's a ton of things to reply to; I can not possibly respond to them all or I'm going to need to quote everyone's posts.


Of course, I question the "Chaotic" aspect of Elan's "Chaotic Good", just like I question the "Lawful" aspect of Nale's "Lawful Evil." He seems to put too much importance on narrative convention and, in several arcs (Notably DStP), Due Process of Law.


Actually, it never made sense to me why he didn't kill Kabuto. Sure, he surrendered, but Elan's chaotic, he has no real obligation to play fair on the villains terms, especially when he killed Therkla.


Elan doesn't kill prisoners. Period.


Elan is Good, which implies respect for life. Killing an enemy who has surrendered? That seems like something Belkar would do, not Elan.

Exactly. In case you haven't noticed, Elan is not a killer. Before he picked up the "Dashing Swordsman" PrC he killed maybe half a dozen creatures with his rapier, including one of the giant snakes in the Dungeon of Dorukan, and a goblin or two. (Most of the deaths he caused were by accidentally blowing up the dungeon.) Even afterwards, Elan has done his best to help people, not hurt them.

As for Elan's regard for Lawful authority, that usually lasts as long as he's not in immediate trouble, like he was in Cliffport. Elan respects the Law more than Haley does, but that's because his Mommy taught him that stealing things is wrong and to be polite to policemen, and to look up to Paladins and their Squires. But in terms of his Ethics, Elan is rather wishy washy. He literally can not be Lawful and remain a Bard in 3.5. It is an Alignment restriction for the Barbarian and Bard classes that they may not be Lawful, the same way that Monks must be Lawful, Paladins must Lawful Good, and Druids must have a Neutral component (Lawful, Good, Chaotic, Evil or True) to their Alignment.


Sigh.

Just as Being Lawful Good Doesn't Necessarily Mean Having To Follow The Law, Being Chaotic Good Doesn't Necessarily Mean Having To Reject The Law.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Alignments Are NOT Straightjackets.

Elan respects Due Process of Law, sort of, because he's been trained to think that is a Good thing to do. Moreover, he was, at the time, in a society that he respected. If he didn't think very highly of Hinjo's rule he might not have been as willing to respect it. He certainly doesn't respect the Due Process of Tarquin's Law, for instance.

To put it another way, executing people without trial is an Evil thing from Elan's perspective. It has little to do with the Law/Chaos angle.

It does have to do with Law/Chaos, and how it interacts with Good/Evil. Elan essentially views the Law as only being worthwhile if it is inherently Good. He probably is not able to vocalize his belief that succintly, but that's how he acts. When around Hinjo he followed the Law... until the Law got in the way of arresting an obvious bad guy like Daimyo Kubota. Hinjo was able to talk Elan down, but the disagreement was very clear. Likewise Elan escaped from the Cliffport prison because he didn't belong there. Roy originally agreed to be Miko's prisoner and go to Azure City to clear up the matter of the Gate; only after she proved herself to be utterly unreasonable did Roy tell her off and try to walk away. (That's also why he tried breaking out of the Azurite jail.) In the EoB, he agreed to Durkon's urging to respect the Law, until he saw how thoroughly unjust it was, and even then Roy did not try to escape.

Haley acts with outright contempt for the Law. She's a thief, trained to distrust authority by her dad; she has no interest in legal niceties except when she's been arrested.

Durkon was the most Lawful member of the group, because his view of Lawful behavior is based on Dwarven Honor. That's why he was so aghast at Roy and the others trying to waltz out of the Azurite prison or the EoB's slave pits. And I think that Vampire!Durkon has the same view, albeit with an opposite moral outlook: whoever lacks honor deserves to get beaten with a big stick. :smallamused:


There is no such character.


Fine. Count Durkula


I see that when Vampire Durkon comes through the fourth wall and wreaks horrible vengeance on everyone who has called him something goofy since he became a vampire, FujinAkari will be spared.


*triple dog dares Kish to go to a mirror and say 'Durkula' five times* :smalltongue:

For the record, I was happy to refer to Vampire!Durkon as "Count Durkon", but I was overruled by the majority. :smalltongue:

[Ramien]

Doesn't the fact that Elan is looking for a mentor like figure itself suggest an inclination against Chaos though? He wants someone to tell him what to do, be it Roy, Haley, Hinjo or Sir Francois. That does not suggest the kind of independent mindset you would expect from a Chaotic individual.

Well yeah, but that's part of why he's Neutral Good rather than Lawful Good. He'll push boundaries on silly things, but at the end of the day he still cheerfully accepts Roy (and Hinjo and Sir Francois's) authority over him.

They're also people that Elan himself chose to follow. He has a very personal loyalty, and that can be a Chaotic trait. He knows he's not the brightest knife in the haystack, so he looks for someone he can respect to help guide him. If someone Elan didn't know came up to Elan and started giving orders, he'd be a lot less likely to go along with it, because it's not someone he's decided it's okay to follow.

[hamishspence]

He literally can not be Lawful and remain a Bard in 3.5. It is an Alignment restriction for the Barbarian and Bard classes that they may not be Lawful, the same way that Monks must be Lawful, Paladins must Lawful Good, and Druids must have a Neutral component (Lawful, Good, Chaotic, Evil or True) to their Alignment.

They vary in restrictiveness though. A monk retains all their class abilities if they cease to be Lawful- but can't take any more Monk class levels. Same applies to a bard that becomes Lawful- retain all powers, can't take more bard levels. A barbarian that becomes Lawful can't take more barbarian levels, and loses Rage ability- but not any other barbarian abilities.

Paladins and druids that change to a forbidden alignment, lose all their special abilities though.

[Mathnut]

I've always been a fan of using the gut reaction test to alignment. If asked: is Élan chaotic or lawful, the immediate answer is Chaotic. If you dot have an immediate association, its more likely a fringe case or actually neutral. Over analyzing the exceptions just shows that characters have a personality and are not rigidly defined by their alignment.

Over analyze anything enough and you'll find evidence that you think will support a different view.

[MtlGuy]

According to the OOTS game character cards...

Roy is Beleaguered Good
Haley is Chaotic Greedy
Elan is Foolish Good
Belkar is Selfish Evil
Durkon is Lawful Bland
Vaarsuvius is Arrogant Neutral

Xykon is Evil with a capital 'E'

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well to be perfectly fair, I don't think I've EVER seen Elan express resentfulness at ANYTHING. It's just not in his character.

You may want to reread those strips right after V murdered Kubota. He was big time resenting her attitude towards Therkla.

[bguy]

It would certainly make for, well, *interesting* D&D societies if, on average, one-third of the people were constantly rebelling against legitimate authority and another third didn't give a damn about it... :smallwink:

Well people can resent authority without actually acting on their resentment. I imagine most chaotic individuals would still obey their society's major laws either because of their own moral codes (CGs and CNs would refrain from murdering and stealing simply because they think murder and theft are wrong), or out of fear of punishment. (i.e. a Chaotic Evil individual might have no moral objections to the idea of murdering someone but refrains from doing it anyway because he is afraid of getting caught and sent to prison.)


The Giant has said Elan is "as Chaotic as they come."

Yeah, but the Giant also said that Therkla was Neutral. :smallwink:


Chaotic people can't be honest?

Objectively, I agree with you that there is nothing about honesty and keeping one's word that should make them exclusively lawful traits.

But per the SRD:
"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word" while
Chaotic characters, "do what they promise if they feel like it."

So the rules specifically assign truthfulness and keeping one's word as lawful traits rather than a chaotic ones. Which in turn means those traits reflect a significant lawful strain in Elan's character.


Yes, very predictable. Very, very, very predictable. Except when he isn't. There's no dictate that a Chaotic character has to be completely unpredictable, but Elan is...what's the term the comic used again? Eccentric, right.

Just acting silly doesn't make you chaotic though. Otherwise Tarquin would also be chaotic. (Remember Malack and V commiserating over how silly both Tarquin and Elan can be.)


Elan doesn't respect authority. He respects particular individuals. He doesn't respect Roy's authority, he respects Roy. Similarly, he's honest not because My Word Is My Bond, but because lying is mean.

Ok, lets try coming at it from another direction, when has Elan ever disrespected authority when it wasn't an emergency situation or when the authority was obviously evil?


I...uh...you should go back and look at some of the paranoid crazy things Haley and Shojo did. I mean, I don't disagree with your general point, but your examples are terrible.

Shojo's paranoia was justifiable though given that he did have a city full of evil aristocrats trying to kill him. As for Haley... well ok you have a point there, but she has gotten a lot better than she was at the start of the story. (And she's certainly a lot better mentally adjusted than Ian or Girard.)

[Porthos]

But per the SRD:
"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word" while
Chaotic characters, "do what they promise if they feel like it."

So the rules specifically assign truthfulness and keeping one's word as lawful traits rather than a chaotic ones. Which in turn means those traits reflect a significant lawful strain in Elan's character.

Again, you're cutting off the 'Good' angle when it comes to Elan. Elan thinks that keeping his word is what Good people do (or rather, heroes), so he does.

So Elan does feel like it.

Now here's a variation of the question that The Giant gave in respecting authority in regards to Elan: How willing would he be to break/bend his word to someone who he doesn't think is worthy of it?

I don't know. But the why he keeps his word might be important. The refrain, "I keep my word because I'm better than you"/"I won't stoop to your level" is a common refrain of roguish Robin Hood types everywhere.

And even there, if Elan had given some sort of promise not to act against Tarquin and then found out what kind of person he was, do you think he would feel that much hesitation at breaking it? Only from a Good/Evil point of view, IMO. The Law/Chaos angle that others might worry about wouldn't come into it.

See, people can do identical actions for different reasons. I mentioned the paladin and ranger side-by-side in a rebellion on purpose. They might be preforming the same identical actions. But the motivation behind it? Could be very very different.


Ok, lets try coming at it from another direction, when has Elan ever disrespected authority when it wasn't an emergency situation or when the authority was obviously evil?

Funny you should mention that. As I alluded to:



Finally, do chaotics have to buck societal trends. I'm sure a lot of Chaotic people are happy with how the government runs things.
I don't think they need to, no. Look at Elan: as Chaotic as they come, but he obeys the law most of the time. The real issue is, how does a character respond when what they believe and what the government is doing don't agree?

[Math_Mage]

Just acting silly doesn't make you chaotic though. Otherwise Tarquin would also be chaotic. (Remember Malack and V commiserating over how silly both Tarquin and Elan can be.)
Being silly has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The commiseration example you provide is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with predictability. The only relevant reminiscence Malack provides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) is over a silly plan Tarquin enacted.


Ok, lets try coming at it from another direction, when has Elan ever disrespected authority when it wasn't an emergency situation or when the authority was obviously evil?
Right, because when you're demonstrated to be wrong about something, the thing to do is to immediately switch to a different argument and hope no one notices.

The point is not that Elan goes out of his way to disrespect authority. The point is that Elan is Chaotic despite not doing so.

[mhsmith]

But per the SRD:
"Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word" while
Chaotic characters, "do what they promise if they feel like it."

So the rules specifically assign truthfulness and keeping one's word as lawful traits rather than a chaotic ones. Which in turn means those traits reflect a significant lawful strain in Elan's character.


Honesty does tend to be a lawful trait, but no reasonable Lawful character JUST has lawful traits, and ditto for chaotic, good, and evil. Especially since "telling the truth" is not a major character trait of Élan. He's not truthful to a fault, and no one relies on him to be the honest arbiter of anything. He chooses not to lie, just like most people normally choose not to lie. there's no real evidence that it's an important philosophy of his.

If anything it seems most like a neutral perspective on honesty, not a lawful one




Ok, lets try coming at it from another direction, when has Elan ever disrespected authority when it wasn't an emergency situation or when the authority was obviously evil?



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

Keep in mind that he hasn't had many interactions with authority figures in any kind of neutral setting. It's been people he respects (Roy, hinjo) or emergencies where ignoring authority is ok, or dealing with evil authorities.

[Cavenskull]

I see that when Vampire Durkon comes through the fourth wall and wreaks horrible vengeance on everyone who has called him something goofy since he became a vampire, FujinAkari will be spared.
There is no person named FujinAkari here. Nicknames don't exist, remember? :smallwink:

[Warren Dew]

Again, you're cutting off the 'Good' angle when it comes to Elan. Elan thinks that keeping his word is what Good people do (or rather, heroes), so he does.

So Elan does feel like it.
I'm surprised that both of you would trust Elan to keep his word. I would expect him to forget half the time.

[Ramien]

I'm surprised that both of you would trust Elan to keep his word. I would expect him to forget half the time.

I expect Elan's mind to work thusly regarding promises:
:elan: I promised Roy that I'd be good and eat my vegetables. Roy would get really mad if I didn't keep my promise, and he's scary when he's mad, so I better do it.

Or:

:elan: I promised Haley I'd write her a song, and she'd be really hurt if I didn't, and I don't like her being hurt.

That and I expect most of Elan's promises (except for bedtime and vegetables) to be things that he'd be very likely to do anyways, so keeping them isn't really much of a hardship.

[Porthos]

I'm surprised that both of you would trust Elan to keep his word. I would expect him to forget half the time.

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with the L/C/G/E/N debate. :smallwink:

That more falls under competancy. An example of this would be a couple of instances in Origins where Elan.... Well, acted like the Elan we all knew and loved in the early strips. :smalltongue:

[bguy]

Again, you're cutting off the 'Good' angle when it comes to Elan. Elan thinks that keeping his word is what Good people do (or rather, heroes), so he does.

Doesn't that itself suggest a non-Chaotic alignment. It's lawful people who are going to believe that keeping your word = a moral good in and of itself. I wouldn't expect chaotic people to put moral values on keeping their word.


Now here's a variation of the question that The Giant gave in respecting authority in regards to Elan: How willing would he be to break/bend his word to someone who he doesn't think is worthy of it?.

The thing is though, breaking you word to someone you don't think is worthy of it is perfectly consistent with a Neutral Good alignment. (Indeed even Lawful Gooders would do it under the right circumstances. I can't imagine Roy would keep a promise to Tarquin if it was going to get innocent people killed for instance.)


I don't think they need to, no. Look at Elan: as Chaotic as they come, but he obeys the law most of the time. The real issue is, how does a character respond when what they believe and what the government is doing don't agree?

Yeah, that is a good way of looking at it. So that would make the question has Elan ever been in a situation where he has an authority figure that he respects who is making a decision that he disagrees with? Several of his interactions with Hinjo might qualify for that. Elan wanted to go back to Azure City to look for Haley, and he didn't understand why Hinjo didn't just arrest Kubota, but he did ultimately accept Hinjo's rulings on both of those matters. And of course he was still going to turn Kubota over to stand trial, even when he was concerned that Kubota could beat the charges which also shows him deferring to lawful authority even when he doesn't agree with what it is doing.


Being silly has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The commiseration example you provide is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with predictability. The only relevant reminiscence Malack provides (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) is over a silly plan Tarquin enacted.

Several of the examples you provided involved Elan acting silly. And most of the others were not him acting unpredictable. (Do you really think that if Roy had known there was a self-destruct rune, he wouldn't immediately have taken steps to keep Elan away from it?)


Right, because when you're demonstrated to be wrong about something, the thing to do is to immediately switch to a different argument and hope no one notices.

The point is not that Elan goes out of his way to disrespect authority. The point is that Elan is Chaotic despite not doing so.

You made the claim in response to me pointing out a long series of authority figures to whom Elan has gladly followed, that Elan respects those people rather than authority in general. As such I am giving you the chance to prove that proposition by pointing to evidence of Elan disrespecting authority. If you cannot provide such evidence than I do not see how you can sustain your original claim that Elan doesn't respect authority. And per the SRD, respecting authority is a lawful trait.


He's not truthful to a fault, and no one relies on him to be the honest arbiter of anything.

He told the Empress to her face that he would have opposed her taking power. He likewise admitted to Samantha that he was out to seduce her, and told Haley that Samantha was prettier than her. Elan pretty much is truthful to a fault.

[Reddish Mage]

Elan's respect for authority is only one of his lawful traits. He also is a very honest person, can be trusted to keep his word, takes his obligations seriously, honors tradition (bardic tradition anyway), and is generally fairly predictable in his actions. Those lawful traits of his balance out well against the chaotic traits you pointed out (though I would disagree with your claims that Elan challenges traditions and that he has little regard for what others expect of him), which is why I think he ends up as Neutral Good.

He'll push boundaries on silly things, but at the end of the day he still cheerfully accepts Roy (and Hinjo and Sir Francois's) authority over him.

I see from your comment on Therkla that the Giant's take on Neutrality doesn't interest you (or at least doesn't influence your understanding of Neutrality). I have to admit his thinking there, involving requiring internal dispositions or internalization of evil traits, is debatable but extremely interesting. I would like to see what the Giant would have to write on the subject of assigning alignments (if we could convince him to write the essay).

However, in this case, with Elan, I think the Giant's points are stronger. While Elan, who is at heart a child, accepts particularly fatherly authority figures as authority figures (he didn't accept Miko), he does not follow them when he disagrees with their decisions. Elan mainly operates from his own moral compass.

D&D in core and supplements has a tendency of treating certain rules and traditions as more lawful than others. Rural society traditions and rituals are less lawful than civilized systems of law. Mialee's dedication to her art is cited as a reason for her non-lawfulness (while Ember is lawful because of her dedication to her discipline). There does seem to be a unstated rule that the regulation of behavior is considered lawful or non-lawful based on how detailed the regulations were as well as how much leeway allowed. Bardic tradition, cited as a guiding principle of behavior by Elan, is highly open to interpretation. Also note, Elan cites it at a point where he violates it to tell Haley about Therkla.

I find when it comes to Chaos and Law it suffers even more from vagueness of these concepts than Good and Evil. I would note this is particularly insightful though the article itself (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Morality_and_Fiends#Law_and_Chaos:_Your_Rules_or_M ine.3F) is not particularly well organized:


The "definition" of Law and Chaos in the Player's Handbook is written so confusingly that the terms are not even mutually exclusive...A character who is honorable, adaptable, trustworthy, flexible, reliable, and loves freedom is a basically stand-up fellow, and meets the check marks for being "ultimate Law" and "ultimate Chaos". There aren't any contradictory adjectives there. While Law and Chaos are supposed to be opposed forces, there's nothing antithetical about the descriptions in the book.

Admittedly, it says in the Chaotic description that "Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it." Which seems to imply that Chaotic characters would do so reflexively and generally, instead of following the law and tradition most of the time (except whenever it differs from their own moral compass or inclinations).

However, Chaotic characters have not been depicted as thumbing their nose at laws constantly (one who does doesn't just seem chaotic they seem very odd). They don't follow the law, however, when it counts.

I'm not sure how many Chaotic personalities you can come up with if a Chaotic character had to generally resent laws and and favor new ideas over traditions. I'm pretty sure most iconoclasts have at least some traditions they favor and usually obey the law. A Chaotic character disobeys the law when doing so offends their conscience, or perhaps their style.

[Porthos]

Doesn't that itself suggest a non-Chaotic alignment. It's lawful people who are going to believe that keeping your word = a moral good in and of itself. I wouldn't expect chaotic people to put moral values on keeping their word.

*tries to think about how to respond to this WITHOUT getting into Morally Justified territory*

*thinks*

*thinks*

I might have it.

L/C = ethics
G/E = morality

(*cribbing off some posts The Giant has made on the subject*)

A lawful person can have a 'personal code', but they have to be very strict about it, lest they slip away to 'anything goes' territory. They're much more likely to have some sort of 'group code' with the natural structure and self-correcting measures such group dynamics provide. Be it a nation, a city, or an organization, where it comes to group.

A Chaotic person can also have a 'personal code' they they adhere to, but they aren't usually as concerned about straying from it (though depending on the person, they might be). And they also usually don't turn to a 'group code' to impose discipline on them. They can, if they agree with it (as has been discussed quite a bit on this thread). OTOH, they're one of the first to jump ship when they start disagreeing with other people's opinions. Or at least, it's their natural inclination to start pushing against it while a lawful character's inclination might be to try to work within the system to modify the situation. But being inclinations, there's lots of room on the spectrum for actual personality and unique situations to come into play.

Thus a Chaotic person could have a personal code that includes "I will keep my word for Reasons X, Y, Z". But they're also more likely to re-examine said code when the situation warrants while the Lawful person should be more hesitant to revisit said code.

...

Yeah, I think I stayed out of Morally Justified territory. I hope. :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

Doesn't the fact that Elan respects the idea of Due Process suggest he has more of a Neutral Good alignment though? Elan also voluntarily accepts what he regards as legitimate authority making rules for him (i.e. allowing Roy to set his bedtime, taking off his eye-patch when ordered to do so by Hinjo, etc). That acceptance of external authority seems inconsistent with a Chaotic alignment.

Except that Elan actually did not respect the idea of due process. In fact, if you look at what happened in that comic, it HORRIFIED him. He knew what Kubota was saying was true, that there would be a trial which Kubota could fix, and that Therkla would become the scapegoat and have her name besmirched. He believed ALL of that to be true. He was furious and frustrated about it, but he STILL spared Kubota, because he just couldn't bring himself to kill an enemy that had surrendered to him.

He had no rational reason to spare Kubota. He did it because it didn't feel right for him to kill. So in fact Elan spared Kubota for the most chaotic of all chaotic reasons - personal whim.

[137beth]

For the record, I was happy to refer to Vampire!Durkon as "Count Durkon", but I was overruled by the majority.
I wouldn't mind "Count Durkon", or "Vampire Durkon". Or just Durkon. That Other Silly Name Which I Have Never Included In A Post, though, is something that I will never use. Ever.

[maxi]

To me, the most interesting part of that topic is Roy-Durkon dynamic. There is no arguing that Durkon was Roy's biggest moral anchor in the team.
With Durkon going vampire, this changes drastically.

The biggest question is - how drastically. At the moment it is handwaved away by "not much more evil than Belkar" notion. But i just can't see it being that simple.

Roy never appeared very happy. Now he should start feeling positively isolated. If something happens to Crystal on top of it, oooh boy.

[Domino Quartz]

Roy never appeared very happy. Now he should start feeling positively isolated. If something happens to Crystal on top of it, oooh boy.

Do you mean Celia? Because something already has happened to Crystal (although she may have since been resurrected/raised), and I don't think Roy much cares what happens to her.

[maxi]

Bah. Yes, of course Celia.

[Math_Mage]

You made the claim in response to me pointing out a long series of authority figures to whom Elan has gladly followed, that Elan respects those people rather than authority in general. As such I am giving you the chance to prove that proposition by pointing to evidence of Elan disrespecting authority. If you cannot provide such evidence than I do not see how you can sustain your original claim that Elan doesn't respect authority. And per the SRD, respecting authority is a lawful trait.
No, you're not giving me anything, you're just missing the point. I'm not basing my statement that Elan respects personal relationships rather than authority on some examples of authorities Elan doesn't respect. I'm basing my statement on how Elan interacts with the authorities he does respect.

I mean, for crying out loud, do you really think Elan is following Roy's directions because "Hey, team leader, it's my duty to follow him"? That he obeyed Hinjo (sometimes, after several promptings and a good deal of backtalk) because "Hey, ruler of Azure City, it's my duty to obey him"? If so, there's a looooooooooot of comic you need to reread.

The same applies to just about everything else we can talk about. The same behavior pattern can come from completely different alignments with completely different motivations. Trying to cast every instance where a character is honest or doesn't actively disrespect authority as indicative of Lawfulness demeans Chaos and limits Chaotic characters to the realm of criminal liars.

As for your other response, just because silliness was involved doesn't mean it was the point; and Roy would act to keep Elan away from the self-destruct rune precisely because Elan is unpredictable. So you still have no argument.

[Driderman]

I expect Elan's mind to work thusly regarding promises:
:elan: I promised Roy that I'd be good and eat my vegetables. Roy would get really mad if I didn't keep my promise, and he's scary when he's mad, so I better do it.

Or:

:elan: I promised Haley I'd write her a song, and she'd be really hurt if I didn't, and I don't like her being hurt.

That and I expect most of Elan's promises (except for bedtime and vegetables) to be things that he'd be very likely to do anyways, so keeping them isn't really much of a hardship.

Elan also pretty much follows "I promised someone something, but now breaking that promise is the right thing to do, I'm sure they'll understand" logic.

[Heksefatter]

I disagree with some of the original statements.

Haley is probably chaotic good. She's still greedy, but she's far less selfish than she was in the beginning.

Durkola I guess is lawful evil. But it shouldn't be treated as a certainty, now he's got his free will back.

V is true netural by Word of the Giant.

Generally, I don't think Roy can be blamed for much in this respect. The fate of the world (or maybe another world) is at stake. That allows for compromises.

[Reddish Mage]

The same applies to just about everything else we can talk about. The same behavior pattern can come from completely different alignments with completely different motivations.

I think this sentiment is a very good take on how the Giant reads alignments. Just because we see a certain behavior pattern doesn't necessarily indicate an alignment, we must also look at the motivations for why the character behaves this way,


Trying to cast every instance where a character is honest or doesn't actively disrespect authority as indicative of Lawfulness demeans Chaos and limits Chaotic characters to the realm of criminal liars.

To be fair, showing examples of Elan being honest and respecting authority figures as a means of illustrating the claim that Elan is generally honest and respects authority, is a fine thing. I do not disagree that Elan is usually honest and usually respects authority. However, I'm pretty sure Elan will go his own way whenever he feels it is the right thing to do, or narratively appropriate, or harmlessly funny. I think the latter is enough to determine a Chaotic leaning, not a Neutral one.

[Kish]

There is no person named FujinAkari here. Nicknames don't exist, remember? :smallwink:
FujinAkari exists.

FujinIkari, something some people were calling her a while back, doesn't exist.

Similarly, Durkon exists (as a character); "Durkula" does not.

[Reddish Mage]

FujinAkari exists.

FujinIkari, something some people were calling her a while back, doesn't exist.

Similarly, Durkon exists (as a character); "Durkula" does not.

Names function as nothing more than referential tags. 'Durkula' (the name) exists by virtue of me using it in the next sentence as a name. Durkula (the fictional character called Durkon in comic) exists.

Now, if you want to claim names function as definite descriptions and Durkula is "the negative-energy channeling vampire cleric member of the OOTS" and Durkon is "The positive-energy channeling dwarven cleric of the OOTS," then only Durkula exists and not Durkon.

Hope that clarified things.

[Ghost Nappa]

Roy: Good First, Lawful Second.
Haley: Chaotic First, Good Second.
Elan: Good First, Chaotic Second.
Durkon: Lawful First, Good Second.
Count Durkula: TBD.
Vaarsuvius: Magic First, Morals Second.
Belkar: Scruffy First, Evil Second.

[mhsmith]

He told the Empress to her face that he would have opposed her taking power. He likewise admitted to Samantha that he was out to seduce her, and told Haley that Samantha was prettier than her. Elan pretty much is truthful to a fault.

actual comic references:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html

Each of those seem to stem from impulsiveness, not considering consequences of actions, and general stupidity. Neither was a "I must tell the truth here because it's important" moment. He's not truthful to a fault, he's impulsive to a fault. The 161 link is especially telling; he doesn't say that because he feels compelled to tell the truth, he says that because he has ZERO CLUE that this is the wrong thing to say.

In each case, the underlying motive / character trait pretty clearly leans Chaotic (acting impulsively without considering consequences is relatively chaotic) as opposed to Lawful (always telling the truth no matter what would be Lawful).