Building a Chaladin Striker

[masterasia6]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here, but it looks like you guys know your way around 4e, and I'm hoping you don't mind giving your two cents on a character I'm building for a 4e game.

I was in a unique position because everyone else had character ideas in mind already. We had a warden(defender), ranger(striker), psion(controller), and a shaman(leader), so I could pretty much be anything. However, nobody was a real 'party face' type character so I decided to go with a paladin, since they're my favorite CHA class (aside from rogue, which I'm already playing in another game.) I decided to go straight Chaladin, and I picked Eladrin as a race because I like their racial power and feats.

Since we already have a leader and a defender, I don't really have to do anything but provide support to those roles. So I was planning to build my character as a striker, in hopes of ending combat more quickly. Paladins don't seem to gravitate towards that role, but after some digging I think I've got a decent game plan. However, I would definitely appreciate a more experienced player's ideas on the build. Also, I'm only planning up to lvl 20 for now, since I'm not sure how long the game will last. I'm really doubting it will get to epic.

Leona, lvl 10
Eladrin, Paladin
Theme: Sohei
Background: Homebrew Background (bonus skill training)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 13, Wis 18, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 8, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 18.


TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff, Diplomacy, Heal, insight, Religion, Endurance

FEATS
Level 1: Eladrin Soldier
Level 2: Mighty Crusader Expertise
Level 4: Power of the Sun
Level 6: Hafted Defense
Level 8: Blade Initiate
Level 10: Eladrin Swordmage Advance


POWERS
Lay on Hands
Paladin at-will 1: Enfeebling Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Virtuous Strike
Theme: Sohei Flurry
Paladin encounter 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin daily 1: On Pain of Death
Paladin utility 2: Bless Weapon
Paladin encounter 3: Righteous Smite
Paladin daily 5: Name of Might
Paladin utility 6: Wrath of the Gods
Paladin encounter 7: Blade of Light
Paladin daily 9: Radiant Pulse
Paladin utility 10: Spirit of the Virtuous Charger

ITEMS
+2 Rending Gouge, +3 Full Plate, Torque of Justice (+2 neck slot), +2 holy symbol

My basic strategy here is to lay down radiant vulnerability and then try to attack as many times as possible in a turn. Virtuous strike always deals radiant damage; with Eladrin Swordmage Advance, I get a free MBA (which can be virtuous strike) every combat. And if I use bless weapon, sohei flurry becomes radiant as well. Considering the Gouge's high base weapon damage, I think it'd be possible to deal some striker-level damage starting around level 4. Thoughts?

My weapon choice concerns me. Would the greatspear be a better option overall? 2.5 less damage on average, but reach, polearm keyword and the extra +1 to hit are certainly notable.

I was also considering going for a charger build, MCing fighter instead of swordmage, and getting fey charger if Paragon rolls around.

Overall, any advice on the basic concept would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Tegu8788]

This is a rare thing, but if you are looking to optimize the damage of a Chaladin, I would highly recommend making a hybrid with a Chalock. The two classes meld very well it turns out, and there is some good feat support for that combo.

That being said, maximizing on radiant damage is a good way to go, with as big a weapon as you can.


Two alternates that may work for you, is the Blackguard (an actual striker based off the Paladin frame) or a Warlock/Hexblade, both of which can be very good Cha based strikers. Here in 4E land, refluffing is easy as pie, so a Rogue, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Sorcerer, etc could all be Paladin's fluff wise. And actually, a Sorcerer wouldn't be a bad Cha Striker either, the Elementalist is a very potent striker.

[Sol]

I think it's worthwhile to point out that a pure paladin, no matter how well constructed, will struggle to meet striker benchmarks, because it wasn't designed to.

Though a pure paladin is easier to optimize damage on than a blackguard, regardless of the blackguard claiming to be a striker.

Another similar-thematically and CHA-heavy build option would be a STR/CHA barbarian|cleric hybrid.

A pure paladin built like a striker may be fine for some levels of table optimization, but unless its going to anger the group to have a striker who's actually effective, an actual striker is probably a better choice.

[ghost_warlock]

Note that, so far as gear goes, you can grab a Crusader's Weapon (lvl 9+). It does require you to use a hammer or mace, but it doubles as a holy symbol and automatically converts half of all the damage it does (with all your powers) to radiant. Typically, you combine it with something like a mordenkrad.

Alternately, the Weapon of Evil Undone (lvl 10+) also serves as a weapliment and can be any type of weapon. It also has a fun daily power that lasts a round and makes a target you hit take auto-damage whenever it attacks - really punishes multi-attacking monsters.

Also, if you're going to mark at all, you might be interested in a Symbol of the Champion's Code (lvl 8+) because it adds damage to your divine challenge and divine sanction equal to its enhancement (a great item just to stick in your back pocket even if you focus exclusively on weapon attacks). It also has a great daily power that flat out denies a monster from attacking anyone but you.

[masterasia6]

I should add that I'm not going to even try to beat the ranger in terms of damage per round. I'm not trying to completely leave behind the paladin's role--I can lay on hands when someone's on the ropes, or DC when the Warden can't reach a nasty baddie.

That said, maximizing damage would be the goal of most of my feats and power choices. I'll support the leader and defender, but they're pretty competent so I should otherwise focus on ending the fight fast.

I'd heard about MCing or Hybriding as a warlock, but decided against it because of in-game reasons. My character is way too careful and independent focused to make a pact with an outsider. I did look at Blackguard, thinking it might be better for the goal of damage, but I wasn't terribly impressed by the powers I saw, and the flavor of it didn't really catch my attention either. So if Chaladin has any potential here as a secondary-striker, that's what I'm going for.

I was thinking about going for more of a Baladin build, though, so that Power Attack would be viable option in paragon. Any thoughts on that option? Havnig never used it in 4e before, does the penalty to hit outweigh the dmg bonus, even with a 2 handed weapon?

The Crusader's weapon sounds grand, but unless there's a hammer/spear or mace/spear I might be out of luck. I was planning on the Champion's Code symbol, though, if the DM feels like working with me later down the line.

[ghost_warlock]

Power Attack is not worth it, no. The extra damage just isn't enough to justify the attack penalty. Two points less to hit is a lot even at higher level.

If you want to maximize damage start by maximizing your to-hit bonus. If you already have an expertise feat, start with feats like Cunning Stalker, Distant Advantage, or the other ones that help you get combat advantage. I'd go with the greatspear, myself. Think of it as trading the extra 2.5 damage/strike for a +5% chance to hit. After all, except for dailies, attacks that miss deal zero damage.

You might want to find a way to multiclass fighter, however. There's some good fighter feats that will definitely help boost your damage, though it'll be hard getting your stats high enough to get them if you invest almost solely in Wis/Cha so maybe just stick with swordage? :smallfrown:

One way to boost your damage is to focus on optimizing Ardent Strike/Virtuous Strike as a basic attack; especially for charging. Don't forget that you get the +1 to hit when you charge even if you use a power that lets you charge or that counts as a basic attack. Lots of items boost charge damage or basic attack damage, e.g.: Horned Helm, Vanguard Weapon, Bracers of Mighty Striking or Iron Armbands of Power, Badge of the Berserker (a must-have for not provoking attacks of opportunity when you charge!), Boots of Adept Charging (more for repositioning after a charge).

On top of using basic attacks as your main go-to powers, the paladin does has some good immediate action attacks you can use to grab some extra damage-per-round outside of your turn. The Cha-based ones are: Avenging Smite (3), Price of Cowardice (7), Ray of Reprisal (9), Eye for an Eye (13), True Nemesis (15; not a true immediate attack, but opens up a immediate you can use for the rest of the fight), Demand Respect (23), and Deific Vengeance (27). Note that most of these also lay down some harsh debuffs on the triggering monster (such as blindness) and/or provide round-about healing to an ally by preventing damage.

Really, a paladin can deal okay damage-per-round, but it's the leader-defender and was never intended to be a striker class. It'll probably never perform as well as an actual striker without some heavy multiclasssing or hybriding.

As for the fluff behind the warlock pact, I played a paladin|warlock in the past and just fluffed it as the pact being made with a powerful emissary/patron of my god. Of course, my character's god already had distinct arcane flavor so it made perfect sense for one of his "angels" to grant arcane power. But if that's not the way you want to play your character that's fine.

[windgate]

I am going to second the suggestion of Blackguard. Blackguards are traditionally strength-primary/charisma-secondary striker paladins. However, if you are a human you can make the build Charisma primary (and ignore the strength if you want).

Use the bonus-at will of humans to pick up "virtuous strike." Not only is this a melee power using charisma, it can also be used for melee basics.


If you want a second charisma at will (this one is accessible by humans and half-elves) :

Two feats: Sunspray heritage + sunspray warrior. This attack debuffs enemy attack rolls for -2. Get yourself a mount somehow and the feats become even more useful.

Daily powers and utilities can give you a secondary role of defender if you want it.

[windgate]

Paladin/Warlock or Warlock/Warlord would essentially give you everything you expressed that you wanted. The downside is that hybrid rules are complicated (and you need to spend your first talent on Hybrid Talent: Armor proficiency). Not sure if that route is good if you are a newer player.

If you choose the warlord route, you can give the entire party initiative boosts (and there is some fun teleport related feats in paragon). They also have the style of leading full party charges..... In terms of powers, select the warlord ones that grant allies attacks (without you making an attack roll)so that you can be CHA/Int instead of CHA/STR

Warlord at-will - Direct The Strike
Warlock at-will - Eldtritch Strike
Encounter power #1: Vengeance Is Mine

Edits: Pact blades or a Swordmage multiclass can resolve implement/weapon problems.

[ghost_warlock]

Paladin/Warlock or Warlock/Warlord would essentially give you everything you expressed that you wanted. The downside is that hybrid rules are complicated (and you need to spend your first talent on Hybrid Talent: Armor proficiency). Not sure if that route is good if you are a newer player.

If you choose the warlord route, you can give the entire party initiative boosts (and there is some fun teleport related feats in paragon). They also have the style of leading full party charges..... In terms of powers, select the warlord ones that grant allies attacks (without you making an attack roll)so that you can be CHA/Int instead of CHA/STR

Warlord at-will - Direct The Strike
Warlock at-will - Eldtritch Strike
Encounter power #1: Vengeance Is Mine

Edits: Pact blades or a Swordmage multiclass can resolve implement/weapon problems.

Just a note: with a warlord|warlock build, you might be better off using regular Str-based melee basics or going the route of Intelligent Blademaster, instead of bothering with Eldritch Strike. Instead, get Echoing Dirge from the warlock selection. Seriously, it's the closest thing warlocks get to Twin Strike and it is glorious.

[masterasia6]

All fine suggestions, but I'm going to try and stick with non-blackguard Paladin as my base class. Hybrids have never really appealed to me, though I might try it. I'm not set on Swordmage as a secondary, though, and my ability scores aren't set in stone yet, so I could consider alternatives.

I think fighter is very viable, because impaling spear would be awesome, and maybe even allow for the accuracy loss of power attack. (I like to live dangerously.) Any of the fighter MC feats particularly notable?

I could consider warlock, but I want to stay primarily melee, would that still work out?

[windgate]

Just a note: with a warlord|warlock build, you might be better off using regular Str-based melee basics or going the route of Intelligent Blademaster, instead of bothering with Eldritch Strike. Instead, get Echoing Dirge from the warlock selection. Seriously, it's the closest thing warlocks get to Twin Strike and it is glorious.

eh, intelligent blade master would require 2 feats to get going (MC sword mage+ IBM) Eldritch strike is nice because you can apply curse damage to the all those melee basic attack warlord powers (Charging, death from two sides..)

[Tengu_temp]

Have you considered switching from a cha-based to a str-based paladin? They can dish out considerable pain with a two-handed weapon and the various feats and powers from Divine Power, and don't even need to multiclass or hybridize.

[windgate]

All fine suggestions, but I'm going to try and stick with non-blackguard Paladin as my base class. Hybrids have never really appealed to me, though I might try it. I'm not set on Swordmage as a secondary, though, and my ability scores aren't set in stone yet, so I could consider alternatives.

I think fighter is very viable, because impaling spear would be awesome, and maybe even allow for the accuracy loss of power attack. (I like to live dangerously.) Any of the fighter MC feats particularly notable?

I could consider warlock, but I want to stay primarily melee, would that still work out?

Hands down the most commonly chosen MC fighter feat is "battle awareness" (melee basic as an interrupt 1x/encounter) The others have value as well but they are more niche. One nice thing about eladrin fighter's is access to the "eladrin's challenge" feat (Your marks are -3 instead of -2,). Mark of warding is better, but many campaigns ban dragonmarks.....

Warlocks can be primarily melee but the whole class is somewhat finicky to build, be prepared to spend a bunch of time trying to figure out the combos you want.

[ghost_warlock]

Probably the easiest fighter MC feat for you to get is Wrathful Warrior, which requires either a Str or Con of 13. However, it's not particularly useful unless you invest quite a bit into Con and it doesn't scale particularly well. Still, if all you want it for is qualifying for fighter feats it'd work.

The most sought-after fighter MC feat is Battle Awareness, which requires Str and Wis of 13, and gives you a watered down version of the fighter's combat superiority feature - allows you to make a melee basic once per encounter as an interrupt when an enemy adjacent to you shifts or attacks someone other than you. Useful for both defenders and strikers looking to increase damage per round with attacks outside their normal turn.

Beyond multiclassing, one fighter feat of note is Surprising Charge, which adds 1[W] damage to your charge attacks with a spear when you have combat advantage. Though it requires a significant investment in Dexterity (17) and probably won't be an option until mid-to-late paragon at the earliest for you unless you cripple your other stats.

Another good fighter feat is Polearm Momentum, which also requires a high Dex (15). It improves stickiness for defenders, and accuracy for other melee, by knocking foes prone when you slide them 2 or more squares. You'll have to build around it a bit to make it work, though, as I'm not sure there's many paladin powers that slide. The usual way of getting around that is to take the Mark of Storm feat and grabbing a Lightning Weapon, although the Mark of Storm is an Eberron feat so it might not be an option for you.

The other way to get a slide is to poach Eldritch Strike from the warlock, which has a slide built-in and many paladin|warlock hybrids (and half-elf dilettantes) use as their melee basic. There's a few items, some lower-level, that help boost the slide from 1 to 2+ squares needed for the feat to knock them prone.

Even if you don't go in for all that, there's lots of other goodies you could poach from warlock. The sorcerer-king warlock pact from the Dark Sun books brought to the table a slew of warlock powers that can be used either as melee or at range. Many have a distinct leadery bend to them by enabling allies' attacks or straight-up granting allies extra attacks at higher level. Of course, you don't have to actually belong to the sorcerer-king the pact to use the powers (though many of them can be improved if you do belong to the pact).

The other reason to mention warlocks and the sorcerer-king pact is that a warlock|paladin can take advantage of a couple feats to achieve the highest possible warlock's curse damage. The Crimson Fire feat increases the die size for warlocks curse to d10 against a target that is both cursed and marked with divine challenge. The sorcerer-king pact feat, Mindbite Scorn, adds an additional curse dice. So, by late heroic tier, you could be dishing out 2d10 additional damage to a target when you hit with warlock powers. Of course, at 11th that becomes 3d10 and at 16th there's a daily utility power that would make it 5d10... :smallwink:

[masterasia6]

Hm...warlock does sound tempting. I might be able to work it into my characters backstory--as an eladrin, it would make sense for her to have a sort of 'fairy godmother' and make a pact.

But Battle Awareness sounds every bit as good as Eladrin Swordmage Advance. And Impaling Spear and a few other fighter feats might make the choice for me. It would take a lot of feats to do the build you described above, and I wouldn't be able to lay down the warlock's curse every fight. I think I might go for a more sustained build, like maximizing those charging Virtuous strikes.

I think I'm settled on Gouge for now, (Although with spear expertise I could switch to greatspear at any time) so I might give them all a go throughout heroic. Hoping the game lasts, really like my character so far. :)

[VeliciaL]

I don't suppose Eldritch Strike works with Spear Push, does it? One of my favorite spear tricks for Fighters (and hybrids/multis) is Longhand Student+Spear Push+Polearm Momentum.

Although I suppose that's not really optimizing for damage now...

[ghost_warlock]

Hm...warlock does sound tempting. I might be able to work it into my characters backstory--as an eladrin, it would make sense for her to have a sort of 'fairy godmother' and make a pact.

But Battle Awareness sounds every bit as good as Eladrin Swordmage Advance. And Impaling Spear and a few other fighter feats might make the choice for me. It would take a lot of feats to do the build you described above, and I wouldn't be able to lay down the warlock's curse every fight. I think I might go for a more sustained build, like maximizing those charging Virtuous strikes.

I think I'm settled on Gouge for now, (Although with spear expertise I could switch to greatspear at any time) so I might give them all a go throughout heroic. Hoping the game lasts, really like my character so far. :)

Getting your curse on people isn't usually too big of a problem because, typically, pallock builds defend by just grabbing and ruining one monster's day at a time. Start a fight by using your move and minor to get both Curse and Challenge on an monster and then charge with Eldritch Strike/Virtuous Strike. There isn't too much pressure to curse lots of foes anyway since you won't have a pact boon to worry about until you can get Twofold Pact in paragon.

But, yeah, pretty much any hybrid build is feat-intensive and pallock perhaps more than others. Especially if you play like I do and optimize for defense as well by MCing assassin to get the Cursed Shadows feat, which gives you Shadow Walk. Plate + heavy shield + Shadow Walk means the DM just scowling at you and eating the Divine Challenge/Divine Sanction damage. :smalltongue:

With a hybrid you probably won't really be able to get much spear shenanigans until mid-to-late paragon at the earliest, so if that's what you're looking for you're going to have issues. Hybrid pallocks have a much easier time with feats if they focus on implement powers. Also, if you juggle a lot of weapon and implement powers, you have to either maintain both a weapon and a holy symbol or find a weapliment (the Weapon of Evil Undone is probably your best bet there since almost all the rest have to be hammers or maces or such).

I won't lie - build a hybrid is a lot of work and they can be pretty complicated to play. I find them rewarding but they're not for everybody - just one one of the better ways to boost paladin dps. You'd probably do well enough MCing fighter and going to town with stuff like Polearm Momentum+Headsman’s Chop and Surprising Charge.

Of course, warlock also has a really fun lvl 10 utility that gives you teleport 1 at-will. With a few teleport enhancers (being an eladrin helps a lot there), you can get some great distance out of it. And, of course, it plays right into the Evermeet Warlock paragon path, which has all sorts of teleport shenanigans that'll get your DM to throw books at you. :smalltongue:


I don't suppose Eldritch Strike works with Spear Push, does it? One of my favorite spear tricks for Fighters (and hybrids/multis) is Longhand Student+Spear Push+Polearm Momentum.

Although I suppose that's not really optimizing for damage now...

Unfortunately, no. Eldritch Strike is a slide so Spear Push would apply.