Ways to bring a mindless creature to you?

[Mr Adventurer]

So say you raised yourself some kind of awesome zombie dragon to ride around on just because that **** be boss, yo. But you don't want all the good people of the towns you visit freaking out when you arrive atop your totally kickass necromantic steed, so you want a way to stash it somewhere that you can send and retrieve it from as needed. What options are there for you?

Restrictions:
The zombie is Colossal, so won't fit many places including a Portable Hole.
It's mindless, so it can't activate magic items.

Any ideas? .

[Fable Wright]

My first thoughts would be to Planeshift the Dragon onto the Ethereal plane, and then hit it with a Transdimensional Banisment spell to send it back to the prime material, but the problem with that is the Banishment spell doesn't specify where the Dragon ends up after it's Banished. As the planes are coterminous and it takes a high level spell slot to do, though, your DM would probably be reasonable about it just popping over to the prime material.

[Zanos]

You could just order it to activate a hat of disguise. You'd still be the talk of the town with your colossal dragon, but at least there would be less pitchforks.

[Erik Vale]

Hat of Disguise.
Enveloping pit [maybe].
Shadow Jar [Name might be wrong, uses a 100gp jar focus to store any creatuer [fail save, order to fail save] into a jar. Open the Jar [or break it in a emergancy] to summon your dragon... Have fun playing Pokemon].
Item of Alter Self [Smaller Undead or Dragon, look at Greater Hat of Diguise Self in PF].
Gentle Repose to prevent decay to make it look like the dragon it origionally was.

[Lightlawbliss]

greater invisibility and have it flying over town and/or Hireling/follower takes care of it for you.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You could bury it using move earth

[Jack_Simth]

Shadow Jar [Name might be wrong, uses a 100gp jar focus to store any creatuer [fail save, order to fail save] into a jar. Open the Jar [or break it in a emergancy] to summon your dragon... Have fun playing Pokemon].Smokey Confinement, Sor/Wiz 6, Complete Mage. But yeah, you have the pertinent details for what it does.

[Qwertystop]

Craft Contingent Teleport, contingent on receiving a message from you, and have it carry an item that would transfer that message (one of those items that allows Sending or Message from one to the other, or one of a set of Ring Gates where you have the other, maybe)

[Mr Adventurer]

Wow, some really fun ideas here. Let me take a look.
My first thoughts would be to Planeshift the Dragon onto the Ethereal plane, and then hit it with a Transdimensional Banisment spell to send it back to the prime material, but the problem with that is the Banishment spell doesn't specify where the Dragon ends up after it's Banished. As the planes are coterminous and it takes a high level spell slot to do, though, your DM would probably be reasonable about it just popping over to the prime material.

This is clever - but it does rely on casting more spells all the time, and who takes the Transdimensional Spell feat?! ;)

Also, it would get left behind if I used some other movement method like teleport.


You could just order it to activate a hat of disguise. You'd still be the talk of the town with your colossal dragon, but at least there would be less pitchforks.

It's mindless, so it can't activate magic items.


Hat of Disguise.
Enveloping pit [maybe].
Shadow Jar [Name might be wrong, uses a 100gp jar focus to store any creatuer [fail save, order to fail save] into a jar. Open the Jar [or break it in a emergancy] to summon your dragon... Have fun playing Pokemon].
Item of Alter Self [Smaller Undead or Dragon, look at Greater Hat of Diguise Self in PF].
Gentle Repose to prevent decay to make it look like the dragon it origionally was.

It's mindless, so it can't activate magic items.

Can an Enveloping Pit fit a Colossal creature?

Smoky Confinement is a brilliant idea, but it's Fort negates so undead are immune.

I want it to look like a zombie! It'll show my enemies how hardcore I am (I'm also going to have Continual Flames coming out of its eyes).


greater invisibility and have it flying over town and/or Hireling/follower takes care of it for you.

Invisibility could work if I could find a way to have it on semi-permanently. A hireling is a good idea, I might end up with that if I can't find something else.


You could bury it using move earth

I love the fact that it means my bitchin' zombie dragon would claw it's way out of the ground when summoned, but there are issues with it getting left behind if I'm not careful.


Smokey Confinement, Sor/Wiz 6, Complete Mage. But yeah, you have the pertinent details for what it does.

As mentioned, undead are immune to anything that allows a Fort save unless it also affects objects, which SC doesn't.


Craft Contingent Teleport, contingent on receiving a message from you, and have it carry an item that would transfer that message (one of those items that allows Sending or Message from one to the other, or one of a set of Ring Gates where you have the other, maybe)

As an Undead it has no Con score, which means it can't have any Craft Contingent spells on it.I

[Jack_Simth]

As mentioned, undead are immune to anything that allows a Fort save unless it also affects objects, which SC doesn't.
Why would that matter? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row)
A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality. (Emphasis added)

Note that the Player's Handbook expands on that (page 177) and includes the example of an elf's resistance to sleep effects, so we know they're not just referring to spell resistance.

So yes, it will work if you order the beast to accept it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Why would that matter? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row)(Emphasis added)

Note that the Player's Handbook expands on that (page 177) and includes the example of an elf's resistance to sleep effects, so we know they're not just referring to spell resistance.

So yes, it will work if you order the beast to accept it.

And by your logic an undead could forgo its immunity to poison but that makes absolutely no sense. The PHB rule was written from the assumption of a player using a normal race.

[TroubleBrewing]

The PHB rule was written from the assumption of a player using a normal race.

[Citation needed.]

[Psyren]

Note that the Player's Handbook expands on that (page 177) and includes the example of an elf's resistance to sleep effects, so we know they're not just referring to spell resistance.

Undead immunity to non-object fort saves isn't related to magic though, so that clause doesn't come into play. They're immune to non-magical fort saves (like mundane poison and disease, or even things like massive damage and water pressure) as well.

[Mr Adventurer]

For the purposes of this thread let's assume that undead can't voluntarily suppress their immunity to effects that allow a Fortitude save which don't affect objects.

[Lord Vukodlak]

[Citation needed.]
Explain to me how a creature like an undead can forgo its immunity to poison as the PHB rule would imply. I don't need a citation its *&*@)* common sense.

[Psyren]

Ok guys it's now moot so lets take it outside this thread.

@ OP: Any chance it could just fly up really high and do endless circles over the town while you're shopping etc.?

[Jack_Simth]

For the purposes of this thread let's assume that undead can't voluntarily suppress their immunity to effects that allow a Fortitude save which don't affect objects.
As you wish. If you don't mind using a very high level spell slot, Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm) can duplicate Trap the Soul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) without the expense of the material component (and as the spell slot is simply spent on storage, you can do this well in advance; you only need to re-cast when you need to put the critter away). That's just will saves, which you can have it forgo. An Iron Flask (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ironFlask) is pretty pricy, but does the job and is reusable (the 1/day limitation, if you already have full control of the critter, really only applies to putting them in the bottle).

[Shining Wrath]

Turn on the TV.

[Mr Adventurer]

Thanks guys.

The creature in question is a zombie blue dragon, so it can fly and burrow. I could order it away until we were ready for it, but I'd need a reliable way of calling it back to me; since it's mindless having it be out and about is a bit of a liability as well.

I like the iron flask idea but as far as I can tell it only affects extraplanar creatures?

Hm. I could also get an intelligent item crafted and have it give orders to the zombie. I'd still like to be able to bring it with magic or some other clever trick though.

[ShurikVch]

PAO into Feeder from Bestiary of Krynn
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_fools_18.jpg

[Red Fel]

I was in a Dragonlance campaign once, and our Black Robe acquired a Robe of Bones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofBones) (or a similar item). Our Black Robe, who was a necromancer already, took Craft Wondrous Item as a feat. With some minor houseruling and a few material components, our Black Robe was then allowed to store her favorite undead minions in her Robe. One of which was a dragon she killed and raised while on sabbatical.
We ended up making a lot of jokes about what she kept under the robe. But that's highly inappropriate.
Just offering the suggestion.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks guys.

The creature in question is a zombie blue dragon, so it can fly and burrow. I could order it away until we were ready for it, but I'd need a reliable way of calling it back to me; since it's mindless having it be out and about is a bit of a liability as well.
Oh. Well, in that case, just cast Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) regularly (or make it Permanent). Odd as it seems, it's not mind-affecting, and will affect mindless undead just fine. Of course, if you Commanded the beast, rather than just having made it, you've got much better control.


I like the iron flask idea but as far as I can tell it only affects extraplanar creatures?
... so it does. That's annoying. Hmm.


Hm. I could also get an intelligent item crafted and have it give orders to the zombie.
Potentially. But then you've got the problem of how you give orders to the intelligent item. Yes, you can do contingencies of varying natures, but without some way for it to tell what's going on while it's flying a mile up or hanging out five feet beneath your feet, it's not very useful.

[TuggyNE]

Oh. Well, in that case, just cast Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) regularly (or make it Permanent). Odd as it seems, it's not mind-affecting, and will affect mindless undead just fine.

That is extremely weird.

[Cirrylius]

Oh. Well, in that case, just cast Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) regularly (or make it Permanent).


Sending Stone, maybe? Would an undead react to orders relayed via magic item?

[Thurbane]

It's mindless, so it can't activate magic items.
---
Invisibility could work if I could find a way to have it on semi-permanently. A hireling is a good idea, I might end up with that if I can't find something else.

I was going to suggest a Ring of Invisibility, but the activation would be a problem. If you can get around that, it might be a solid option.

[Jack_Simth]

That is extremely weird.
I know.
..

Oh, nevermind. Won't work. It says they have to have an Int of 3. I should have read it more closely before posting. Ah well.

Hmm. Maybe Greater Scrying and Message?

[Thurbane]

Could you Awaken the creature so it can activate items, and still retain control over it somehow?

[Psyren]

Oh. Well, in that case, just cast Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) regularly (or make it Permanent). Odd as it seems, it's not mind-affecting, and will affect mindless undead just fine.

It won't, actually:


You forge a telepathic bond among yourself and a number of willing creatures, each of which must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.

EDIT: Just saw your follow-up where you noticed that snag.

[Kane0]

Gate

because that **** be boss, yo.

Characterlimit

[Rubik]

Enough levels in truenamer for Call My Name And I Am There?

It's mindless; that'll help with its self-esteem each time it has to gain another level.

[Nettlekid]

Has no one suggested Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object to get the Fort (object) thing) into like, a little lizard or even a button or something, and then you dispel the Polymorph when you want the dragon back?

[Steward]

Enough levels in truenamer for Call My Name And I Am There?

It's mindless; that'll help with its self-esteem each time it has to gain another level.

Truenamer 1 through 19 will probably cripple the zombie dragon though. :smallbiggrin:

You can't just polymorph it into some kind of handheld object or staff, right?

EDIT:


Has no one suggested Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object to get the Fort (object) thing) into like, a little lizard or even a button or something, and then you dispel the Polymorph when you want the dragon back?


Yeah, like this.

[Emperor Tippy]

I know.
..

Oh, nevermind. Won't work. It says they have to have an Int of 3. I should have read it more closely before posting. Ah well.

Hmm. Maybe Greater Scrying and Message?

PAO to human, cast permanent Telepathic Bond, dismiss PAO.

[Red Fel]

Has no one suggested Polymorph (or Polymorph Any Object to get the Fort (object) thing) into like, a little lizard or even a button or something, and then you dispel the Polymorph when you want the dragon back?

I suggested putting it inside a robe. But apparently nobody liked that.

[unseenmage]

It takes about 10 minutes rounds out of your day to put it back but you could just cast Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) for the Metamorphosis function.
Puts the thing in a jar and keeps it aware of it's surroundings and is Dispellable by you.


As for putting it in an Enveloping Pit, Colossal creatures can't quite squeeze in there.
Unless we extrapolate a third iteration of Squeezing which immobilizes the creature so that it cannot move without outside assistance. (Makes sense when you think of spelunking and the risk of getting stuck when squeezing IRL but isn't RAW.)
My sig has a link to the numbers for other sizes of creatures Squeezed into E. Pits and P. Holes.


There's also a variant of Summoning in the DMG that would allow you to summon a specific creature instead of a generic creature of a type. But as a variant it would require your DM to be on board.

Edit:
There's also the Instant Refuge (SC) spell, it's like a Contingent Greater Teleport except that it works across planes, doesn't interact with your Contingency allotment, and it has 6 different triggers.
However, it's Personal Range and I'm not sure how you'd program a mindless creature to use it to find you.


As an Undead it has no Con score, which means it can't have any Craft Contingent spells on it.

Why? I'm reading Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) and Craft Contingent Spell (CAr139) and am not seeing it. Is this a houserule or something?

I ask because we've been using Contingencies on our Constructs in an IRL game for a while now and if this is a real thing I'd like to know what we missed.

[Segev]

Have it do the "flying high overhead" or otherwise waiting a distance away and out of sight thing.

Animate a bird or bat skeleton - something that can fly and be held easily in a magic container of your choice.

Give the zombie dragon a standing order to follow the second undead critter back to you when it comes to get it.

Send it as a messenger to go fly to the zombie dragon, get its attention, then lead it back to you.

Alternatively, get a pair of Ring Gates. Put one on the Zombie Dragon's head. Call for it through yours; it should hear you. Have some method for it to locate and come to you.

[Nettlekid]

It takes about 10 minutes rounds out of your day to put it back but you could just cast Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm) for the Metamorphosis function.
Puts the thing in a jar and keeps it aware of it's surroundings and is Dispellable by you.


As for putting it in an Enveloping Pit, Colossal creatures can't quite squeeze in there.
Unless we extrapolate a third iteration of Squeezing which immobilizes the creature so that it cannot move without outside assistance. (Makes sense when you think of spelunking and the risk of getting stuck when squeezing IRL but isn't RAW.)
My sig has a link to the numbers for other sizes of creatures Squeezed into E. Pits and P. Holes.


There's also a variant of Summoning in the DMG that would allow you to summon a specific creature instead of a generic creature of a type. But as a variant it would require your DM to be on board.

Edit:
There's also the Instant Refuge (SC) spell, it's like a Contingent Greater Teleport except that it works across planes, doesn't interact with your Contingency allotment, and it has 6 different triggers.
However, it's Personal Range and I'm not sure how you'd program a mindless creature to use it to find you.



Why? I'm reading Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) and Craft Contingent Spell (CAr139) and am not seeing it. Is this a houserule or something?

I ask because we've been using Contingencies on our Constructs in an IRL game for a while now and if this is a real thing I'd like to know what we missed.

I don't think Binding works because it's a mind-affecting effect, and then we get back to the whole "can it suppress an innate immunity" kind of thing.

I believe you can have a number of Contingent Spells crafted on you (not including the actual spell Contingency) equal to your HD, so I don't know why someone mentioned Con.

Seriously though, doesn't PaO into a little thing do the trick here?

[unseenmage]

I don't think Binding works because it's a mind-affecting effect, and then we get back to the whole "can it suppress an innate immunity" kind of thing.

I believe you can have a number of Contingent Spells crafted on you (not including the actual spell Contingency) equal to your HD, so I don't know why someone mentioned Con.

Seriously though, doesn't PaO into a little thing do the trick here?

I hadn't noticed that Binding was Mind-Affecting. My bad. Weird that it will completely polymorph the subject into a bottle or make them part of a gem with the power of Compulsion but whatevs.

Yeah but when does PAO not do the thing?
It's the Swiss Army knife of spells. (Well it would be if Swiss Army knives could be turned into themselves after being turned into themselves.)

[Nettlekid]

I hadn't noticed that Binding was Mind-Affecting. My bad. Weird that it will completely polymorph the subject into a bottle or make them part of a gem with the power of Compulsion but whatevs.

Yeah but when does PAO not do the thing?
It's the Swiss Army knife of spells. (Well it would be if Swiss Army knives could be turned into themselves after being turned into themselves.)

I know, I had thought of Binding too, but then noticed it didn't work. It really should lose that descriptor for the transformation effect. But if it did, it'd probably become a Fort save too.

And true, PaO is usually the go-to spell, but most of those Swiss Army uses involve abusing the fact that it changes creature type in order to get around immunities and stuff, as well as misinterpreting a "permanent" duration of change to mean that the new form is now the "original" form when you cast it again, which is just not understanding how spells work. But to transmute the dragon into a tiny thing and dispel the transmutation when you want it back is quite in keeping with the original intent of the spell.

[Psyren]

PAO to human, cast permanent Telepathic Bond, dismiss PAO.

The bond itself needs Int 3, not just the establishing/casting it. The moment you dispel the PAO the bond will break.

(I assume you meant dispel rather than dismiss, I don't think PAO can be dismissed.)

[Emperor Tippy]

The bond itself needs Int 3, not just the establishing/casting it. The moment you dispel the PAO the bond will break.

(I assume you meant dispel rather than dismiss, I don't think PAO can be dismissed.)

No, it doesn't. All spells only check applicability upon being cast.

[Psyren]

No, it doesn't. All spells only check applicability upon being cast.

The text is ambiguous:

"You forge a telepathic bond among yourself and a number of willing creatures, each of which must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher."

"Must have" is both present tense, and present continuous. Depending on which your DM chooses to use, the spell can cause problems for this strategy.

[Emperor Tippy]

The text is ambiguous:

"You forge a telepathic bond among yourself and a number of willing creatures, each of which must have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher."

"Must have" is both present tense, and present continuous. Depending on which your DM chooses to use, the spell can cause problems for this strategy.

Must have to forge. It doesn't say must have to maintain. Without a specific statement in the spell, it only checks on casting.

[Psyren]

It's not "must have TO" anything. Just "must have." Continuous.

To be unambiguously the way you are reading it, it needs to instead say "must have had."

[Nettlekid]

I'm going to side with Psyren on this one, because if checking for availability when casting is all that the spell requires, then there's nothing to stop you from using PaO (in the broken way) to turn your Dragon into any nonmagical object (I assume it's still nonmagical even if there's a spell acting on it, right?) and cast a Permanencied Shrink Item on it. Then dispel the PaO, and you now have a Dragon that can be shrunk to 1/4000 its size as you please. And also can become cloth, I guess? Which is just silly.