Time Lords At Their Prime Compared To Other Sci-Fi Civilizations

[Tectonic Robot]

Basically a VS. thread, except really without a second contender.

I'm interested in knowing just how powerful the Time Lords were at their prime, compared to other sci-fi civilizations, in ways such as who would win in a fight, or who would have more influence, etc. etc.

Feel free to mention any sort of civilization you want to.

[Traab]

I admit to not knowing much about the whoverse, but if I have it right, pretty much the only other sci fi races that could stand up to them are ones with equal time manipulation abilities. So, I dunno, maybe the Sphere Builders from the Enterprise series? The Q could likely obliterate them, but I cant be sure.

[jedipotter]

Well, one has to wonder how powerful the Time Lords were. Are we talking Dark Times Time Lords, or the ones just after that?

According to the legend, Time Lords seeded the Universe with humanoid life. And they had the power to do things like wipe whole planets from the time stream. Or lock a whole planet in a time loop. And blow up suns.

So what other Sci-fi folks come close? The Q from Star Trek?

[Selrahc]

The Timelords could create and destroy stars(hand of Omega), and custom engineer planets and species(Such as humans). They also had time travel, and access to reality breaking weapons(a tardis explosion could risk shattering reality accidentally). In the time wars, the combatants were apparently using armies composed of hypothetical beings(the Would-Have Been King). The Timelord courts had the ability to remove people from reality(The Trial of the Doctor), while prisoners of war were stored in the void between dimensions.

Quite powerful.

EDIT:
The Timelords are basically at an abstract level of power that can't be easily compared. They have enough reality manipulation to be able to defend themselves credibly from warpers like Q, and seem to have dealt with Q equivalents in the Whoniverse quite well.

3 standouts who are definitely playing in the same ball park-

The Celestials. (Marvel)
The Xeelee. (Xeelee Sequence by Stephen Baxter)
The Q. (Star Trek)

[Tanuki Tales]

Shouldn't they have been able to create beings like the Nightmare Child as well?

Edit:

Are they really Celestial level though? Celestials are capable of universe busting.

[HamHam]

On the other hand, they got taken out by giant tin cans that can't climb stairs.

So...

[Selrahc]

Are they really Celestial level though? Celestials are capable of universe busting.

We're at an arbitrary power level. I don't think there are clearly defined tiers. But yes... they are certainly universe busting. The Dalek bomb at the end of season 4 had the potential to eradicate the entire universe beyond the small group of planets the Daleks corralled together. The Timelords are functionally equal to the Daleks.

[HamHam]

The Time Lords were in fact planning on destroying the universe.

EDIT:

The main difference between them and the Q is that they are still physical beings, and without their technology they can't do much.

[GloatingSwine]

Pretty much top of the pile.

The Ultimate Sanction was, basically, "delete the universe and start again, with only us".


I don't think there are any SF polities that could seriously stand up to the Time Lords at their peak.

No, not even the Q. Hell, the worst that happened in the Q civil war was a few supernovae, which is pretty small beans compared to "the very concept of ordered spacetime is irrevocably broken now", which was the outcome when the Time Lords got serious.

[GloatingSwine]

Even deep future Who-verse humanity is a force to be reckoned with. They're capable of galaxy busting (which they did to eradicate the Cybermen, coralled them to one galaxy then blew it up), and have suitcase bombs that can destroy planets.

[Rakaydos]

How resistant are time lords to strong psychics? Could, say, the Mentors of Arisa (Lensmen) hijack their time tech and gain equal power?

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm betting good money the Celestials could beat the Time Lords.

Especially if they have Scathan the Approver. He'd probably curbstomp the entire Time War solo.

[Traab]

Pretty much top of the pile.

The Ultimate Sanction was, basically, "delete the universe and start again, with only us".


I don't think there are any SF polities that could seriously stand up to the Time Lords at their peak.

No, not even the Q. Hell, the worst that happened in the Q civil war was a few supernovae, which is pretty small beans compared to "the very concept of ordered spacetime is irrevocably broken now", which was the outcome when the Time Lords got serious.

Those supernovas were the equivalent of rifles to the Q. Hand held weaponry capable of blowing up stars. They are capable of instantaneous travel to any point in time or space of all of reality. They can do literally anything to anything they want and have total control over reality itself.

[MLai]

No, not even the Q. Hell, the worst that happened in the Q civil war was a few supernovae, which is pretty small beans compared to "the very concept of ordered spacetime is irrevocably broken now", which was the outcome when the Time Lords got serious.
That episode gave me the impression that the Continuum was still just "playing at war." They were gentlemanly cross with each other, so they took up "primitive firearms" and exercised in a way that did minimal damage to the real universe.

[Traab]

That episode gave me the impression that the Continuum was still just "playing at war." They were gentlemanly cross with each other, so they took up "primitive firearms" and exercised in a way that did minimal damage to the real universe.

Really, the entire "civil war" was basically a philosophy argument iirc. One side wanted to shake things up, try something new, the other side were happy with just staying in their rut.

[Empedocles]

Well...the Daleks not only wiped them out, but (although they technically lost the war) succeeded in coming back more effectively than the two living time lords.

Besides that...I feel like it's all been covered.

[Tanuki Tales]

Well...the Daleks not only wiped them out, but (although they technically lost the war) succeeded in coming back more effectively than the two living time lords.

Besides that...I feel like it's all been covered.

Did they wipe them out? I thought the Daleks had only neutered the Gallifreyan military and had started to invade at the end of the war.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This is not a question with an answer because Time Lord civilization is at the level of pure plot device. Various entities elsewhere like the Q *may* be able to take on the Time Lords, but its not something our puny human brains should pretend to be able to know.

Even if we hold they can't match up to say upper cosmic entities like the Q nothing without similar levels of unknowable omnipotent plot level powers has a chance at least.




The Ultimate Sanction was, basically, "delete the universe and start again, with only us".

Sure you didn't get your wires crossed with Davros' reality bomb plan? The Ultimate Sanction was wiping out everything everywhere while the Time Lords became "pure conciousness" I believe was the phrase used, so ascending to a higher plane of existence.


Did they wipe them out? I thought the Daleks had only neutered the Gallifreyan military and had started to invade at the end of the war.

Umm not really supportable, while the Daleks certainly had struck at Gallifrey at some point the "present" we saw of the Time War noted they were only at "the fringes" where evidently reality was just flat out broke into little pieces spawning eldritch abominations among countless other things.

Though the Time War is just generally held to be something that would break our puny little human brains into pieces so it parts be happening just over the hills and a universe away simultaneously with no difference.

Thus we must toss out every foundational concept like "distance" as merely a vague thing.

Or such is the general impression, we're never ever going to see it. Supposedly. Unless they cheap out on us and make that the Anniversary Special after all.

[Tavar]

Note that it's entirely plausible for the Daleks to have defeated the Time Lords: the Time Lords are noted as being extremely non-interventionist(at the current era). Plus, the Daleks are are clone race that are noted as having very fast Tech advancement. (there might also be some hints that the Daleks may have stolen TL tech).

The Time Lords could have taken the Daleks out at plenty of points, but instead they were too arrogant, and so allowed another race to approach their position. Which fits their position as an Incredibly Decadent race.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Note that it's entirely plausible for the Daleks to have defeated the Time Lords: the Time Lords are noted as being extremely non-interventionist(at the current era). Plus, the Daleks are are clone race that are noted as having very fast Tech advancement. (there might also be some hints that the Daleks may have stolen TL tech).

The Time Lords could have taken the Daleks out at plenty of points, but instead they were too arrogant, and so allowed another race to approach their position. Which fits their position as an Incredibly Decadent race.

Plausible but not the case. We know how the Time War ended.

The Doctor killed all the Time Lords. (Twice actually)

We also, via statements by NuWho show-runners long after anyways, know the Time War's first battle. Its Genesis of the Daleks the Fourth Doctor serial. Guess just what the Doctor was sent to do on Skaro?

[Tavar]

Plausible but not the case. We know how the Time War ended.

The Doctor killed all the Time Lords. (Twice actually)

We also, via statements by NuWho show-runners long after anyways, know the Time War's first battle. Its Genesis of the Daleks the Fourth Doctor serial. Guess just what the Doctor was sent to do on Skaro?

We know how it ended, but I thought it was somewhat implied that the Time Lords were kinda starting to lose the 'conventional' part of the war, getting ready to use some of the more powerful, universe breaking stuff.

And while the Time Lords did send the Doctor to stop the Daleks several times, the Doctor isn't exactly the best person for such purposes. The Time Lords have multiple means to destroy the Daleks, but in their arrogance they only want to use minimal means. Which made the Daleks progressively more angry and aware of the Time Lords.

[Eldan]

Their power level is also wildly inconsistent, at least if we get into media outside the TV series.

I'm not too familiar with the old TV series, but I've recently started listening to the audio plays and reading the books.

ON the one hand, it mentions that they basically play with universal constants at will.

On the other hand, in Sirens of Time, some jumped up mortal race who just discovered time travel conquers Gallifrey and imprisons them all with no fuzz.

Tardises are powered by stars and they have black holes lying around on standby.

They can travel through time and space at will and see all of it at once on a map, on the other hand, they often have problems finding and contacting the Doctor. Any incarnation of him. While he is in his ship.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not sure to what extent there was a conventional aspect to the time war
but I certainly did get the impression that the doctor ended the time war as and when he did, because the Time Lords had simply become that dangerous and insane, that they had become as bad as the Daleks.

The idea that it didn't matter who won, everything else would lose, so he stepped back, wrapped the whole affair up in paradox and threw it away.

[paddyfool]

They can travel through time and space at will and see all of it at once on a map, on the other hand, they often have problems finding and contacting the Doctor. Any incarnation of him. While he is in his ship.

Although, to be fair, the Doctor doesn't seem to want to be easily found.

[Tanuki Tales]

Umm not really supportable,


By the last day of the war, the Daleks had destroyed every Battle TARDIS, and began to invade Gallifrey itself. (COMIC: Sky Jacks)

Just because they didn't do an episode, didn't mean that it wasn't touched upon in the peripheral media.

[Raimun]

Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann would win.

Or just Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann.

[Fjolnir]

The Doctor not only killed all the time lords, he also took the ENTIRE TIME WAR and put it into its own time frame, separate from the universe at large, the only reason that the Daleks escaped was due to items like the Omega prison and dormant Daleks that were "lost"

[Calemyr]

The major limitation on the Time Lords is the "realism" their setting requires. A Q can change reality with a snap of his fingers. A Timelord can do the same, but requires significantly more effort and has to consider the consequences. A Q hears the word paradox and thinks of two mallards, while it is a constant and vital concern for a Time Lord - even the rebel ones like the Master or the Monk, because if they don't handle it properly the paradox will ruin their plans faster than the Doctor.

The other detail is that we're talking about two separate scales here. The Q (and I imagine most of the others in consideration) are extra-dimensional entities if not simply natives of an outside dimension. The Time Lords are still mortals and, while time is merely another direction for them, still limited to a classical set of dimensions in terms of everyday existence.

Basically, I would say that, in the league of nearly-omnipotent god-races, the Time Lords are the equivalent of Batman. They have to work for everything they get, but the fact that they can be seriously considered in such company in the first place is an incredible achievement in itself.

[Eldan]

Well, there are godlike beings in the Whoverse that are above the time lords.

[Kato]

I'll have to agree with Soras... Time Lords are a lot powered by plot.

There are often claims (most often made by Timelords so possibly somewhat exaggerated) how they are omnipotent but this is quite clearly not the case. Yeah, they are damn powerful and have technology which borders on things we can't even imagine BUT as pure living beings they are not much different from humans, so... yeah, anything with "real" god like powers such as a Q is obviously a step up in evolution and power. Whether Q have the ability to shatter the universe not only on a level of matter but time and space I guess is not quite clear but it is quite clear they could stop the timelords if they tried. Along with other races who are on that level of power. (Really, the Q and such are pretty much omnipotent gods, for 99.9% of what you need to be able to do to be considered a god)

Maybe we should limit this to pure technological prowess but even then it is kind of the same problem because while they can (quite) freely travel through time and space they lost to the Daleks which... well, there are about a million ways they should have been able to destroy them if they really wanted to. But... PLOT!

[Calemyr]

Maybe we should limit this to pure technological prowess but even then it is kind of the same problem because while they can (quite) freely travel through time and space they lost to the Daleks which... well, there are about a million ways they should have been able to destroy them if they really wanted to. But... PLOT!

That's not exactly fair. Davros was willing and able to build and detonate a reality bomb, and he was a very early casualty of the Time War. With the exception of Rassilon's team in End of Time, the only witness we have at all to the later parts of the Time War is the Doctor, who states that the Time War twisted and warped both sides until neither was recognizable any more.

Think about this: the Daleks were omnicidal, implaccable, mutant space monsters BEFORE the Time War. Imagine how horrible they must have become during it. And the Time Lords have been playing a game of "Who's the Bigger Monster" and holding their own for the most part.

To be honest, though, I never got the impression the Time Lords were losing. It seemed to me to be like the war in The Doctor's Daughter, where constant bloodshed and the infuriating inability to make gains created a sort of desperation even though neither side had an overwhelming advantage. I felt they were more tired of the war (but unwilling to accept any peace) rather than afraid an ultimate defeat was eminent.

[Tanuki Tales]

The Time Lords lost the war because of The Doctor.

If they had been allowed to complete the Ultimate Sanction or if the Doctor had used The Moment against the Daleks instead of against everyone, the Time Lords would have won.

The Daleks did cripple the Gallifreyan military by destroying all the battle TARDISes though and did invade Gallifrey.

[Goosefeather]

Basically, I would say that, in the league of nearly-omnipotent god-races, the Time Lords are the equivalent of Batman. They have to work for everything they get, but the fact that they can be seriously considered in such company in the first place is an incredible achievement in itself.

Ooh, I like this analogy. Iron Man would probably work too - it's all in the technology.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Just because they didn't do an episode, didn't mean that it wasn't touched upon in the peripheral media.

With all the peripheral media and a couple of pounds ya get... a couple of pounds.

The main media of Doctor Who is trouble enough to nail down, side material is fanfic done for a profit. Poke around enough and for example you have Battle and War TARDISes from different places, and troubling questions like how they are upgrades when the TARDIS can do things like tow Earth around. And of course you have a wide array of sources from different companies under different licenses at different times.

Peripherals at best side speculation and only if it poses no problems. Maybe if it was written by say Davies or Moffet intending to do something they'll never have the budget for onscreen, but then I would expect a British publication of some type not an independent American published comic book.

(Just because the Tardis Data Core mentions something does not a credible claim make)



Basically, I would say that, in the league of nearly-omnipotent god-races, the Time Lords are the equivalent of Batman. They have to work for everything they get, but the fact that they can be seriously considered in such company in the first place is an incredible achievement in itself.

I can agree but note that Batman has a rep for punching above his weight class. (As does the Doctor on a more personal level)

Time Lords probably "shouldn't" be able to take on omnipotent races, but if they did and won because they created some kind of applied phelbotnium shield to prevent being wiped from existence because they are completely aware of those upper levels... it would still be in keeping with say Rassilon wiping out the "Master race" with a wave of his hand. And its not like all the upper races out there are really ever depicted as just pressing "I win" buttons, because that would make for a short story that nobody would like. Thus there's always some wrinkle in it all that to me anyways means what "should" happen is not much of a guarantee.

Or put more succinctly why should Q get to do his schtick but the Doctor NOT get to do his?

That's why I consider this sort of thing a question without answer.

[Tanuki Tales]

There is no actual canon for Doctor Who Soras. The episodes probably take precedence over side material, but unless its contradicted by the episodes, any of the side material is just as canon.

[factotum]

Surely the Doctor himself shows how scary the Time Lords could be, given half a chance? We're talking a person who is personally known, hated and feared by pretty much all the evil races in existence, and who successfully thwarts their plans over and over again. This is a Time Lord who flies alone in an obsolete TARDIS that is designed for several Time Lords to operate, note. We also know that this one TARDIS is fully capable of destroying the entire Universe when it goes wrong (as it does every third episode or thereabouts :smallsmile:)--if it has that sort of power when it's malfunctioning, what could a fully up-to-date TARDIS do with controlled and directed power?

[Soras Teva Gee]

There is no actual canon for Doctor Who Soras. The episodes probably take precedence over side material, but unless its contradicted by the episodes, any of the side material is just as canon.

Horse hockey. If anything that means that means small references are even LESS meaningful as actual statements because then nothing has authority to speak on the truth and we can at best get aggregate generalities.

So no that mention can still not be taken very far.

And it is a certainly contradiction that if Gallifrey was anything like wide open to the Daleks the war would have been over with a more comprehensible Dalek victory. Because they're the Daleks they... I really shouldn't have to finish that!

There is a leg to stand on for the Dalek possibly getting there in a more strategic sense if they aren't having as much trouble with the whole broken reality thing. Since you wouldn't have a scheme like Rassilon cooked up if victory was seeming likely. But whether they would have stopped the Ultimate Sanction before the Doctor preempted the whole matter can't be said.

[Calemyr]

Surely the Doctor himself shows how scary the Time Lords could be, given half a chance? We're talking a person who is personally known, hated and feared by pretty much all the evil races in existence, and who successfully thwarts their plans over and over again. This is a Time Lord who flies alone in an obsolete TARDIS that is designed for several Time Lords to operate, note. We also know that this one TARDIS is fully capable of destroying the entire Universe when it goes wrong (as it does every third episode or thereabouts :smallsmile:)--if it has that sort of power when it's malfunctioning, what could a fully up-to-date TARDIS do with controlled and directed power?

Oh, yes. And it gets much worse if you ignore the Cartmel Master Plan.

For those of you who aren't aware of it, the Cartmel Master Plan was a proposed myth arc for the Seventh Doctor, in which it would have been revealed that the Doctor is a reincarnation of the last of the three founders of the Time Lords: Rassilon, Omega, and the Other. The show was canceled before it really kicked in, but hints had been sown. It is not currently considered to be canon, mind you.

Why does the lack of the Plan make the Doctor scarier? Because with out it, there is really no evidence of the Doctor being more than an average Time Lord before stealing his TARDIS. If anything, he is regarded as somewhat sub-par. But while the Time Lords remain complacent in their little bubble world, the Doctor begins to accrue real life experience, until he scares even his own people. The same seems to hold true for other renegade Time Lords as well.

That's what's scariest, to my mind. The thought that even a pretty generic Time Lord can become the Doctor if allowed into the universe. That Gallifrey's static indolence could in fact be the greatest service it did to the universe at large.

[Zaydos]

With controlled and directed power: much, much less. You're dealing with a run away reaction (where one reaction causes more in an exponential fashion) with the malfunction which is by its nature not controllable once it has begun and well it's directed application is a bomb.

That said, they could make some dangerous weapons, and if they wanted to they could destroy the universe with a bomb (as could the daleks).

[Tanuki Tales]

Horse hockey.

BBC has no official stance on any form of canon for Doctor Who in the large scale. So episodes take precedence, but side material is just as canon as long as it isn't directly contradicted.

It's your prerogative and/or issue to take a George Lucas approach to this.

[Soras Teva Gee]

That's what's scariest, to my mind. The thought that even a pretty generic Time Lord can become the Doctor if allowed into the universe. That Gallifrey's static indolence could in fact be the greatest service it did to the universe at large.

You know I think this also explains quite a lot on the macroscale if say the Time Lords were indolent and non-interfering for precisely that reason.

Give them a threat that forces them to become an active force in the universe...

[Aotrs Commander]

A Q hears the word paradox and thinks of two mallards,

Pahahahahahahaha!

Sorry, I have nothing to contribute, but that was just brilliant.

[Tiki Snakes]

BBC has no official stance on any form of canon for Doctor Who in the large scale. So episodes take precedence, but side material is just as canon as long as it isn't directly contradicted.

It's your prerogative and/or issue to take a George Lucas approach to this.

No stance on canon does not mean everything is canon until contradicted. That's a logical leap. Simpler to assume that nothing is canon unless it agrees with the rest, which is to say the show is all that is canon to the show, the books to the books and the audioplays to the audioplays. If there is any cross polination it is likely to be rare, beyond the fact that audios and books ad comics etc all tend to build on the show.


You know I think this also explains quite a lot on the macroscale if say the Time Lords were indolent and non-interfering for precisely that reason.


I always figured that was more or less exactly the point.

[Rakaydos]

No stance on canon does not mean everything is canon until contradicted. That's a logical leap. Simpler to assume that nothing is canon unless it agrees with the rest, which is to say the show is all that is canon to the show, the books to the books and the audioplays to the audioplays. If there is any cross polination it is likely to be rare, beyond the fact that audios and books ad comics etc all tend to build on the show.
Except in a show about altering history, how much of it contradicts itself, paradoxically, in canon?

[Tiki Snakes]

Except in a show about altering history, how much of it contradicts itself, paradoxically, in canon?

Doctor Who isn't really about altering canon. Also, it both contradicts itself even within the show and never contradicts itself on account of wibbly wobbly.

The point is that stuff in books and audio-plays build on the show, but there's no guarantee that the show pays the first bit of attention to what is or isn't in a comic or audiobook.

[Calemyr]

Except in a show about altering history, how much of it contradicts itself, paradoxically, in canon?

True. If you try to work out the canon, you're playing with a lit fuse.

I mean trying to work out Moffat's own internal canon is a headache, thanks to River and the Big Bang. How can River exist in a universe partially defined by the death of Rory? I mean, I can excuse a lot of it on the assumption that the new universe is exactly the same as the snapshot recorded in the Pandorica, but Rory's return is new to the new universe. No Rory = no wedding, no wedding = no TARDIS honeymoon, no TARDIS honeymoon = no River.

[Soras Teva Gee]

BBC has no official stance on any form of canon for Doctor Who in the large scale. So episodes take precedence, but side material is just as canon as long as it isn't directly contradicted.

It's your prerogative and/or issue to take a George Lucas approach to this.

Wrong. Both in general practice (which considers only primary media by default) and by by how just said explicitly lacking any authority with any material.

Me personally I'm so generalist I want either a tight single story from beginning to end (Who does not apply) or something with enough occurrence to shape the general mythos. If you can get wide convergence from side material in a seamless way with the main media then as a general conclusion it might hold water. Single instances, not a chance doesn't matter what they are.

Doctor Who where even say season recent finales don't quite fit together and you have Cybus Cybermen mysteriously showing up in the main reality your already on shakey ground. Try to complete put together classic and new series, and there's brain bending concepts like time travel involved, yeah way past. Because its not something I can describe as a consistent whole and I wouldn't expect that with something as long and complicated and subject to timey-wimey. Analysis called and its taking a vacation and says have fun with that, so I decided to join it.

Of course it is still a TV show so I have to give that the most weight because its the closest thing were going to have to authority as the original. I have to accept it on balance or there's nothing left and its going to inevitably shape everything. Its why we say throw out contradictions to it in the first place when if there's no canon you can argue there are say multiple Nines out there. And Peter Cushing as First alongside Hartnell. And I'll bet you dollars to pounds trying to put anything of Eight aside from the movie in a whole is a mess.

In lieu of trying to swallow all of that I'll dismiss it all excepting maybe some of the broadest strokes if they can be established. Like that *maybe* the Time Lords have TARDISes built for combat since that's shown up a couple of times, and is at least modestly rational as something to do. Single data points from side materials with no explicit authority do not a definitive factual conclusion make. That's not an argument its an attempt at Conviction by Contradiction (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConvictionByContradiction) and inherently dishonest as far as I'm concerned. You can cite that it happened all you want but DO NOT assert that as the One Truth beyond reproach.

That is precisely what explicit canon is for and you by your own argument are denying that sort of rationale.

[Androgeus]

BBC has no official stance on any form of canon for Doctor Who in the large scale. So episodes take precedence, but side material is just as canon as long as it isn't directly contradicted.

It's your prerogative and/or issue to take a George Lucas approach to this.

I think there might be a small rule that the TV series can't rely on side material that requires the viewer to spend additional money.

Also I think you guys have been missing the Time Lords largest advantage over any other civilizations, the collars! How could a people with collars that large ever be beaten?

[Goosefeather]

People assume that canon is a simple representation of established events and conventions, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective, Whoniverse viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, canony-wanony... stuff.

[Tectonic Robot]

As the creator of this thread, if you want to talk about supplemental stories and comics and such, go ahead! Everything time lord related is fair game.

I remember reading about battle tardis's on the Doctor Who wiki once. They have torpedos that lock the target into time-stasis, or something, I believe.

[Calemyr]

People assume that canon is a simple representation of established events and conventions, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective, Whoniverse viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, canony-wanony... stuff.

This franchise has kinda gotten away from you.

[GloatingSwine]

When on the discussion of Canon, it's worth noting that everything we've actually seen the Q do, not just heard them say they can do, is really small beans. (teleportation, creation and destruction of matter, etc are just more advanced versions of technologies already available to the Federation).

Especially compared to some things you read about in SF books like the Xeelee sequence.

[HandofShadows]

A Q hears the word paradox and thinks of two mallards,

This is one of those time I REALLY wish this board had rep points, because this line earned it. :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

I think the issues with comparison threads like this are that
(Most) Sci-fi writers have a terrible sense of scale. A trillion might as well be eleventy gajillion, someone destroying a galaxy or universe is as simple as snuffing out a single star...
Even if they did have a proper and consistent handle on scale, civilizations past a type 1 or so on the Kardashev scale are definitely well within the realm of "sufficiently advanced" with respect to Clarke's 3rd law. Comparing star-exploders with black-hole-throwers is hard when they're both far more developed past us than we are past early Mesopotamian culture, to the nth degree.

[Tanuki Tales]

Wrong.

And it's your prerogative to think that.

Edit:
And for the record, your interpretation just makes the Time Lords weaker as a race. The Moment is something that only appeared in the side material and it's what Time-Locked the entire War and wiped out both the Daleks and the Time Lords.

[Soras Teva Gee]

People assume that canon is a simple representation of established events and conventions, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective, Whoniverse viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, canony-wanony... stuff.

This.

Applies to a lot of franchises but perhaps especially Doctor Who.



Also I think you guys have been missing the Time Lords largest advantage over any other civilizations, the collars! How could a people with collars that large ever be beaten?

You see people walking around dressed like this (http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Rassilon.jpg) and you just know they're not afraid of anything.


When on the discussion of Canon, it's worth noting that everything we've actually seen the Q do, not just heard them say they can do, is really small beans. (teleportation, creation and destruction of matter, etc are just more advanced versions of technologies already available to the Federation).

Especially compared to some things you read about in SF books like the Xeelee sequence.

Pretty close to always the case, since the whole beyond human comprehension thing has the problem of your audience being human and your creators being human.

So any decent cosmic entity is going to play vague at best and probably troll like a boss rather then show off what they can seriously do.

[Weezer]

You know I think this also explains quite a lot on the macroscale if say the Time Lords were indolent and non-interfering for precisely that reason.

Give them a threat that forces them to become an active force in the universe...

Case in point: the Daleks.

[GloatingSwine]

Pretty close to always the case, since the whole beyond human comprehension thing has the problem of your audience being human and your creators being human.

So any decent cosmic entity is going to play vague at best and probably troll like a boss rather then show off what they can seriously do.

It's more like "the limits of television". They did enough reality bending episodes that if they wanted to do "Q makes the spacetime continuum his bitch" they could have sold it, but whenever he showed up he only did things that could fit in to the five minutes in the script where "Q does teh magic!".

In some ways it helps Doctor Who that they're really vague about a lot of stuff. Talking about the various horrors of the Time War in the abstract means that the audience only has the context of "The Doctor, who we know has seen some ****, thinks that these are Bad Things".

[factotum]

When on the discussion of Canon, it's worth noting that everything we've actually seen the Q do, not just heard them say they can do, is really small beans. (teleportation, creation and destruction of matter, etc are just more advanced versions of technologies already available to the Federation).


It's more to do with the sheer scale of what the Q do, along with the apparent ease with which they do it, that implies their power. A Q who believed herself to be a young human woman on the Enterprise, and thus not trained and barely in control of her own powers, cleared an entire planet's atmosphere of some sort of deadly poison without any effort at all. Q himself transported the entire Enterprise-D and all its crew across seven thousand light years of space to meet the Borg for the first time, whereas Federation transporters are limited to ranges of a few tens of thousands of kilometres and generally aren't seen to be able to transport anything much larger than a human being--not to mention that it would have taken the Enterprise more than two years at maximum speed to get back to where it started.

[Eldan]

You see people walking around dressed like this (http://cdn3.whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Rassilon.jpg) and you just know they're not afraid of anything.

I want a Paisley velvet bathrobe.

[Thufir]

The Moment is something that only appeared in the side material and it's what Time-Locked the entire War and wiped out both the Daleks and the Time Lords.

Actually, it was mentioned in End of Time, they just never explained what it was.

[Tanuki Tales]

Actually, it was mentioned in End of Time, they just never explained what it was.

Ah, it got mentioned? I've yet to watch all of Tenant's run until I've watched Hartnell to McGann so that I can properly let go and move on to a new Doctor. I'm about at Day of the Daleks with Pertwee.

It's basically a supped up De-Mat Gun that can remove millions from space-time instead of just a single person.

Edit:

Also, Davros' Reality Bomb was a multi-universe (potentially multiverse) buster, not a universe buster.

[GloatingSwine]

It's more to do with the sheer scale of what the Q do, along with the apparent ease with which they do it, that implies their power. A Q who believed herself to be a young human woman on the Enterprise, and thus not trained and barely in control of her own powers, cleared an entire planet's atmosphere of some sort of deadly poison without any effort at all.

Yeah, but that's not something the Federation couldn't do at all, they couldn't do it as quickly or completely, but give them another million years of technological progress and they probably could.


Q himself transported the entire Enterprise-D and all its crew across seven thousand light years of space to meet the Borg for the first time

And Tom Paris built an Infinite Improbability Drive in a Voyager shuttlebay with a box of scraps!. Once more, it's not gross violations of spacetime, it's just "a really fast warp drive". That doesn't turn you into a lizard. Unless it would be funny.

I think the only time a Q actually does something really impressive is when he alters the gravitational constant in a localised region (and then, the Federation has gravity control on its spaceships, so once more just the same capabilities writ large).

Even time travel is pretty commonplace in Trek, so it would be weird if the Q couldn't do it.

The Q are just another set of post-singularity beings whose technological capabilities are sufficiently advanced that they look like magic to the 24th century Federation. (the fact that they can build artifacts, like the guns in Q and the Grey, which can be used by non-Q to destroy a Q indicates that yes, at least some of their capabilities are technological).

[Tanuki Tales]

Do the Q even have anything that really puts them on universal level in either destructive capacity or durability? Best I can remember is star system level stuff.

[Traab]

Do the Q even have anything that really puts them on universal level in either destructive capacity or durability? Best I can remember is star system level stuff.

Honestly not really, but then, i wouldnt expect to, the show isnt about them and their limits, they arent the borg, they are a generally hands off species of omnipotent beings, one member of the race just likes to screw with the federation. So their full capabilities are left a vague godlike level. The one and only time we see a Q actually get hurt is when our mischief making Q takes a supernova musket ball to the shoulder, and that counts as an injury, though he is fine shortly afterwards. What we are shown is pretty much total control over reality, as Q does whatever the hell he wants whenever the hell he wants to. As near as we can tell, they are fundamentally immortal, though after that one episode of voyager they can choose to die if they want. But I wouldnt suggest trying to stab one. It probably wouldnt end well.

[Tavar]

They apparently create supernova's Super Nova's as a byproduct of infighting.


Oh, and there's All Good Things. They don't actually do it, but they create the conditions for it(and the action is preformed using regular Star Trek tech). Sure, it's of a somewhat limited area, but that seems more by choice than anything else.

[Trickquestion]

One major weakness of the Time Lords is that they only have one planet, and the number of Time Lords regularly off that planet is a single digit. If you could launch a surprise attack, or get a planet buster past their defenses, you win. In fact, the Sontarans did that successfully (the surprise attack, not the planet buster) in the old series.

Heck, they don't seem to have conventional starfighters, so the Death Star could probably blow Gallifrey up no problem.

[Weezer]

I think the biggest problem with the Time Lords is that they don't care, and thus can get caught with their pants down really easily, as demonstrated in Classic Who serials like the Invasion of Time and Arc of Infinity, two serials where their complacency resulted in nigh dire consequences for the entire race.

[Tavar]

Perhaps it should be pointed out that the Time lords in the series aren't really the Lord's at their peak: they're the Time Lords in the Decline. Arrogance and Ennui have weakened them to the point where they are actually vulnerable to threats again, the first time in a long time, given their history.

[Tanuki Tales]

Heck, they don't seem to have conventional starfighters, so the Death Star could probably blow Gallifrey up no problem.

They have Battle TARDISes, which have time stasis causing torpedos as basic armaments. And I bet the Doctor's TARDIS could tank the Death Star given the right conditions.

[Soras Teva Gee]

They apparently create supernova's Super Nova's as a byproduct of infighting.

This may sound weird but I personally think that's a bit weaksauce. Where's the mind bending unreality.

You want to impress me suddenly rewrite the value of pi or something.


Oh, and there's All Good Things. They don't actually do it, but they create the conditions for it(and the action is preformed using regular Star Trek tech). Sure, it's of a somewhat limited area, but that seems more by choice than anything else.

Well it seems to be mostly an extra little f-u Jean-Luc by Q since the only reason (so help me its been awhile) that paradox situation happened was Q intervening in the first place.

Also includes Q taking Picard time traveling.


Perhaps it should be pointed out that the Time lords in the series aren't really the Lord's at their peak: they're the Time Lords in the Decline. Arrogance and Ennui have weakened them to the point where they are actually vulnerable to threats again, the first time in a long time, given their history.

What was the figure of years for uninterrupted power that it took to be truly corrupt Six gave to when basically declaring the Time Lord less in touch with reality then his coat.

[Traab]

This may sound weird but I personally think that's a bit weaksauce. Where's the mind bending unreality.

You want to impress me suddenly rewrite the value of pi or something.



Well it seems to be mostly an extra little f-u Jean-Luc by Q since the only reason (so help me its been awhile) that paradox situation happened was Q intervening in the first place.

Also includes Q taking Picard time traveling.



What was the figure of years for uninterrupted power that it took to be truly corrupt Six gave to when basically declaring the Time Lord less in touch with reality then his coat.

The thing is, while it was fairly grandiosely called a civil war by everyones favorite Q, in reality the entire thing made little sense. I mean, on one side you had the status quo. They didnt want anything to change from how it has always been. On the other you had those who wanted to experience new things, do something different, etc. Now, the part that makes no sense in that context is the war itself. The status quo instantly lost the moment a battle between Q started, as thats not something that ever happened before.

So I tend to look on it as more, this was really an energetic debate. After all, im fairly sure we never hear about any of the Q DYING in this "civil war" And if that is the case, then they were causing super novas through energetic debates, and a civil war was how they chose to let the voyager crew see it. That being said, it sure would have been amusing if it was shown as an actual debate. And every time a Q made a good point and smacked the pulpit, a star blew up. :smallbiggrin:

Also, while reality bending would be nice and all, when an entire species of reality benders get into a fight, im fairly sure they have their own geneva conventions in place to avoid unraveling reality so far it destroys everything. Because that could get so far out of hand so fast.

[Tavar]

Well it seems to be mostly an extra little f-u Jean-Luc by Q since the only reason (so help me its been awhile) that paradox situation happened was Q intervening in the first place.

Also includes Q taking Picard time traveling.
Oh, most certainly. I was just bringing up that Q's are able to destroy large areas, seemingly on a whim.



What was the figure of years for uninterrupted power that it took to be truly corrupt Six gave to when basically declaring the Time Lord less in touch with reality then his coat.
No idea, but that would probably be relevant.

[ArlEammon]

Pretty much top of the pile.

The Ultimate Sanction was, basically, "delete the universe and start again, with only us".


I don't think there are any SF polities that could seriously stand up to the Time Lords at their peak.

No, not even the Q. Hell, the worst that happened in the Q civil war was a few supernovae, which is pretty small beans compared to "the very concept of ordered spacetime is irrevocably broken now", which was the outcome when the Time Lords got serious.

The supernovae were happening in our universe, as a side effect of what was ahppening in the Continuim, which is a different dimension altogether

[Traab]

The supernovae were happening in our universe, as a side effect of what was ahppening in the Continuim, which is a different dimension altogether

And once again, in addition to that, these were caused by their equivalent of hand held weapons. In all honesty, as far as we can tell, the Q have no limits on what they can do other than the rules they setup for themselves.

[HandofShadows]

The supernovae were happening in our universe, as a side effect of what was ahppening in the Continuim, which is a different dimension altogether

I other words, blowing up stars is an unintended side effect of a very limited firefight going on in the Continium. If the Q decided to use their version of WMD's rather than hand held weapons, the side effects would have destroyed the entire galaxy. And likely effected other nearby galaxies.

Now what happens if the Q decide to intentionaly use their version of WMD's on the Milky Way galaxy? A easily noticable fraction of the universe probably goes BooM! What's more they could do it with a snap of the fingers. No prep time. :smalleek:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

People assume that canon is a simple representation of established events and conventions, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective, Whoniverse viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, canony-wanony... stuff.
The Time Lords actually invented the technology to rewrite canon from beyond the Fourth Wall.

[grolim]

I other words, blowing up stars is an unintended side effect of a very limited firefight going on in the Continium. If the Q decided to use their version of WMD's rather than hand held weapons, the side effects would have destroyed the entire galaxy. And likely effected other nearby galaxies.

Now what happens if the Q decide to intentionaly use their version of WMD's on the Milky Way galaxy? A easily noticable fraction of the universe probably goes BooM! What's more they could do it with a snap of the fingers. No prep time. :smalleek:

Simple, change the gravitational constant of the universe. Not galaxy, not start system, but the universe....and it would have been simple. And of all the stuff we see them do, it is basically single Q doing them and we have no idea of their population. Imagine 15-20 at once TRYING to kill things.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Simple, change the gravitational constant of the universe. Not galaxy, not start system, but the universe....and it would have been simple. And of all the stuff we see them do, it is basically single Q doing them and we have no idea of their population. Imagine 15-20 at once TRYING to kill things.

Infinity + Infinity = ??? (A: STILL Infinity)

I'm sorry but "scaling up" ceases to be impressive since we can't discern that even a single Q is so limited as to be finite.

[Rogerd]

I admit to not knowing much about the whoverse, but if I have it right, pretty much the only other sci fi races that could stand up to them are ones with equal time manipulation abilities. So, I dunno, maybe the Sphere Builders from the Enterprise series? The Q could likely obliterate them, but I cant be sure.

The Sphere Builders would be a joke to the Time Lords. And they can certainly kill a Q, in the same way they can kill an Eternal which is the same level.


According to the legend, Time Lords seeded the Universe with humanoid life.

There are several progenitors, one of whom was the Olympian - Prometheus.


And they had the power to do things like wipe whole planets from the time stream. Or lock a whole planet in a time loop. And blow up suns.

Blowing up suns is trivial ****e in Who, it really is. Generally they time loop stuff for eternity, like the Mad Mind of Basphomeral.


The Celestials. (Marvel)
The Xeelee. (Xeelee Sequence by Stephen Baxter)
The Q. (Star Trek)

None of the above could take full power TL's unfortunately.

A celestial suit is just dimensional transcendent, but it certainly does not have the power to withstand full power from the TL's.


I'm betting good money the Celestials could beat the Time Lords.

Especially if they have Scathan the Approver. He'd probably curbstomp the entire Time War solo.

Not a chance in hell I'm afraid.


Do the Q even have anything that really puts them on universal level in either destructive capacity or durability? Best I can remember is star system level stuff.

In canon they are totally unable to die, even by a Big Bang until the invention of exotic Q weapons.

EDIT: Sci-Fi Civs (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/sci-fi-civilization-tier.260932/#post-10971812)

EDIT 2: Grand List of Powerful Sci Fi Civilizations (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/grand-list-of-powerful-sci-fi-civilizations.238105/)

[Traab]

The Sphere Builders would be a joke to the Time Lords. And they can certainly kill a Q, in the same way they can kill an Eternal which is the same level.



There are several progenitors, one of whom was the Olympian - Prometheus.



Blowing up suns is trivial ****e in Who, it really is. Generally they time loop stuff for eternity, like the Mad Mind of Basphomeral.



None of the above could take full power TL's unfortunately.

A celestial suit is just dimensional transcendent, but it certainly does not have the power to withstand full power from the TL's.



Not a chance in hell I'm afraid.



In canon they are totally unable to die, even by a Big Bang until the invention of exotic Q weapons.

EDIT: Sci-Fi Civs (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/sci-fi-civilization-tier.260932/#post-10971812)

EDIT 2: Grand List of Powerful Sci Fi Civilizations (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/grand-list-of-powerful-sci-fi-civilizations.238105/)


I fail to see how the Q would get rolled over. They have total control over all of reality, time and space included. They can do, literally anything. The only restrictions are the ones they give to themselves. They have no tech, its all natural abilities to do anything they want TO anything they want, with nothing more than a thought.

[Rogerd]

I fail to see how the Q would get rolled over. They have total control over all of reality, time and space included. They can do, literally anything. The only restrictions are the ones they give to themselves. They have no tech, its all natural abilities to do anything they want TO anything they want, with nothing more than a thought.

Unfortunately canon shows that to be wrong.

It is stated explicitly that they cannot die, but it takes 'Q weapons' to do the trick. So we know they do use tech. As to the restrictions they give themselves there is nothing in canon to say that is true, so that is incorrect.

From feats and dialogue they are around Eternal level, and they can be insta-killed by a War Tardis.

[Traab]

Unfortunately canon shows that to be wrong.

It is stated explicitly that they cannot die, but it takes 'Q weapons' to do the trick. So we know they do use tech. As to the restrictions they give themselves there is nothing in canon to say that is true, so that is incorrect.

From feats and dialogue they are around Eternal level, and they can be insta-killed by a War Tardis.

They create things by thinking. We see a musket, but only because as lower beings we are incapable of comprehending what they are actually doing. We dont know what the "Q Weapons" actually are because we cannot comprehend the reality of them. As for restrictions, we see multiple examples when Q is forbidden from interfering with picard by the rest of the continuum, or when that one Q in voyager wanted to die and the rest wouldnt let him. However we DO see them transport the federation ships across distances that required decades in an instant, teleport them through time itself, in fact, when the voyager crew gets to visit the continuum, he is specifically telling them that they can see all and know all. They have experienced the start middle and finish of everything, and thats why he is bored. The Q are functionally omnipotent, and the only reason they ever lose to picard or janeway or sisko is because of the rules he sets up for the contest. He creates a dilemma, either ethical or physical, and dares them to solve it. Its all tests and games to him, much like any classical god of mythology reaching down and challenging a mortal to a contest, only with less smiting.

[grolim]

I don't know about that last part. There seems to be much smiting of Starfleet Captains' patience.

[Rogerd]

They create things by thinking. We see a musket, but only because as lower beings we are incapable of comprehending what they are actually doing. We dont know what the "Q Weapons" actually are because we cannot comprehend the reality of them. As for restrictions, we see multiple examples when Q is forbidden from interfering with picard by the rest of the continuum, or when that one Q in voyager wanted to die and the rest wouldnt let him. However we DO see them transport the federation ships across distances that required decades in an instant, teleport them through time itself, in fact, when the voyager crew gets to visit the continuum, he is specifically telling them that they can see all and know all. They have experienced the start middle and finish of everything, and thats why he is bored. The Q are functionally omnipotent, and the only reason they ever lose to picard or janeway or sisko is because of the rules he sets up for the contest. He creates a dilemma, either ethical or physical, and dares them to solve it. Its all tests and games to him, much like any classical god of mythology reaching down and challenging a mortal to a contest, only with less smiting.

Right, but isn't anything the Time Lords cannot do. Now the may be composed of stuff other than matter but that doesn't change a darn thing. Fact is the TL's can kill a Q, going by equivalency that they have similar feats to Eternals and Chronovores.

[Traab]

Right, but isn't anything the Time Lords cannot do. Now the may be composed of stuff other than matter but that doesn't change a darn thing. Fact is the TL's can kill a Q, going by equivalency that they have similar feats to Eternals and Chronovores.

And what stops the Q from killing them? They can do anything. There is no known limit on their abilities other than the ones they willingly apply to themselves. This is omnipotence versus omnipotence.

[Tavar]

And Q's can likely kill timelords, given that they can manipulate time without worry regarding paradoxes, which seem to be something of a worry for TimeLords.

[Tanuki Tales]

None of the above could take full power TL's unfortunately.

A celestial suit is just dimensional transcendent, but it certainly does not have the power to withstand full power from the TL's.



Not a chance in hell I'm afraid.


This is kind of hilarious to me, because it shows you don't know anything about Scathan the Approver, let alone the Celestials.

A recent X-Factor comic confirmed that all Celestials in all alternate realities are all representations of the same individual Celestials. So we have confirmation that a Victor Von Doom with the Beyonder's power and the Infinity Gauntlet burnt out both trying to defeat that reality's entire population of Celestials. That's what Celestials who aren't Scathan are capable of by themselves.

The Beyonder was a cube being (so he had universal level creation, destruction and manipulation capabilities) and the Infinity Gauntlet was capable of effortlessly beating entities who are several tiers more powerful than a Cube being.

Which is impressive before we even get into the average important Celestial being a whole tier or two more powerful than Cube Beings.

The best weapons we've seen from the Whoverse are The Moment and Davros' Reality Bomb (unless someone can point to me something better). The former was, at best, something of a sub-universal weapon. It was capable of removing millions from time and space and time locking a single period of time and space. There was no hints of it being able to affect more than that. The latter was at least a universal weapon and implied to be a multiple universal weapon, but there is no hints of it being a multiversal weapon. And it required ridiculous amounts of prep and the lack of any higher race that could detect what was going on the whole time.

So, I could see you saying the Time Lords had a shot against a host of bog standard, not the best they can be Celestials, but you actually said Scathan wouldn't matter.

Scathan the Approver is one of the most powerful characters in all of Marvel comics. He not only effortlessly defeated and restrained The Protege (an entity that had begun to copy and knock around Marvel Abstracts and had begun to do this to the Living Tribunal) but his permission was explicitly sought by The Living Tribunal in order to pass sentence on The Protege.

The Living Tribunal is the direct servant of The One Above All, Mavel's expy for God/YHWH/Jehova/etc. The sheer amount of power that a being like him possesses is so immense that wiping out entire multiverses by simply thinking wouldn't even be a parlor trick for him. And Scathan is above him.

So, I re-iterate, Scathan by himself could solo every single sci-fi verse mentioned in this thread unless they possess a True Omnipotent.

[Rogerd]

And what stops the Q from killing them? They can do anything. There is no known limit on their abilities other than the ones they willingly apply to themselves. This is omnipotence versus omnipotence.

No it isn't. Quinn states that the Q are not omnipotent. As to what stops them, the Transduction Barrier. It is capable of surviving a Big Bang.


And Q's can likely kill timelords, given that they can manipulate time without worry regarding paradoxes, which seem to be something of a worry for TimeLords.

Paradoxes aren't a concern for Time Lords, at all.

[Rogerd]

This is kind of hilarious to me, because it shows you don't know anything about Scathan the Approver, let alone the Celestials.

Well I do, or rather did. Now it seems Marvel has been doing what it does best - Retcon.


A recent X-Factor comic confirmed that all Celestials in all alternate realities are all representations of the same individual Celestials. So we have confirmation that a Victor Von Doom with the Beyonder's power and the Infinity Gauntlet burnt out both trying to defeat that reality's entire population of Celestials. That's what Celestials who aren't Scathan are capable of by themselves.

The Beyonder was a cube being (so he had universal level creation, destruction and manipulation capabilities) and the Infinity Gauntlet was capable of effortlessly beating entities who are several tiers more powerful than a Cube being.

Which is impressive before we even get into the average important Celestial being a whole tier or two more powerful than Cube Beings.

I concede and stand corrected on this. This was not the case five or so years back when I was reading Ultimate Marvel and catching up on some rather poor 616 stuff that I stopped bothering.


The best weapons we've seen from the Whoverse are The Moment and Davros' Reality Bomb (unless someone can point to me something better). The former was, at best, something of a sub-universal weapon.

It was capable of removing millions from time and space and time locking a single period of time and space. There was no hints of it being able to affect more than that. The latter was at least a universal weapon and implied to be a multiple universal weapon, but there is no hints of it being a multiversal weapon. And it required ridiculous amounts of prep and the lack of any higher race that could detect what was going on the whole time.

It was actually a multiversal weapon IIRC that affected the Rose's Dad Verse. We also have the Armageddon Sapphire capable of destroying the multiverse, every Who one.


Scathan the Approver is one of the most powerful characters in all of Marvel comics. He not only effortlessly defeated and restrained The Protege (an entity that had begun to copy and knock around Marvel Abstracts and had begun to do this to the Living Tribunal) but his permission was explicitly sought by The Living Tribunal in order to pass sentence on The Protege.

The Living Tribunal is the direct servant of The One Above All, Mavel's expy for God/YHWH/Jehova/etc. The sheer amount of power that a being like him possesses is so immense that wiping out entire multiverses by simply thinking wouldn't even be a parlor trick for him. And Scathan is above him.

Up until this point you actually had some credibility...now it's all gone. This suffered Retcon into being the LT's M-Body. So no, Scathan ain't that powerful - period. In fact I recall one arc stating that the Celestials were actually Eternity's immune system.


So, I re-iterate, Scathan by himself could solo every single sci-fi verse mentioned in this thread unless they possess a True Omnipotent.

Sorry, but this is blatantly wrong.

[Tanuki Tales]

It was actually a multiversal weapon IIRC that affected the Rose's Dad Verse. We also have the Armageddon Sapphire capable of destroying the multiverse, every Who one.

Destroying 2 universes =/= Multiversal. That just makes it a multiple universal weapon. To make it a multiversal weapon would require it being able to destroy more on the magnitudes of dozens up dozens of universes at the same time.

And nothing I see about the Armageddon Sapphire makes it any more than a universal weapon. Davros' Reality bomb is still the far more impressive weapon between the two.




Up until this point you actually had some credibility...now it's all gone.

Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine? Glad we made you the judge. :smallwink:


This suffered Retcon into being the LT's M-Body. So no, Scathan ain't that powerful - period. In fact I recall one arc stating that the Celestials were actually Eternity's immune system.

Evidence that this was an M-body and not the actual Living Tribunal?




Sorry, but this is blatantly wrong.

If it is, you haven't proved it at all.

[Selrahc]

Isn't it fun when two arbitrarily powerful sci-fi polities with internally inconsistent feats are compared by two biased third parties who have a vested interest in hyping up their chosen universe?

Oh sorry. Not fun. Tedious.

If you want to discuss how powerful the civilizations are can we do it in a less confrontational "Yah boo!" "Up our lads" way? Discourse rather than debate maybe? How artists chose to depict beings of extreme levels of power is interesting, but this is almost the least interesting possible way to discuss it. Nobody needs to take sides here.

[ArlEammon]

Isn't it fun when two arbitrarily powerful sci-fi polities with internally inconsistent feats are compared by two biased third parties who have a vested interest in hyping up their chosen universe?

Oh sorry. Not fun. Tedious.

If you want to discuss how powerful the civilizations are can we do it in a less confrontational "Yah boo!" "Up our lads" way? Discourse rather than debate maybe? How artists chose to depict beings of extreme levels of power is interesting, but this is almost the least interesting possible way to discuss it. Nobody needs to take sides here.

Sith: "You are either with us or against us."

[Traab]

No it isn't. Quinn states that the Q are not omnipotent. As to what stops them, the Transduction Barrier. It is capable of surviving a Big Bang.



Paradoxes aren't a concern for Time Lords, at all.

Is it capable of not being blinked out of existence by a being capable of altering reality on a whim? Its not about who can create the biggest bang, Q can just make something not exist. Its not blowing it up, its straight up saying "Be not." and having that thing vanish from existence.

See, this is the problem when it comes to arguing about gods. It becomes a big he said she said game of "Nuh uh!" "Yu HUH!" And as for Quinn, its been awhile, but wasnt he talking about some abstract limit along the lines of "money cant buy love" instead of a hard and fast actual power limit?

[Rogerd]

Destroying 2 universes =/= Multiversal. That just makes it a multiple universal weapon. To make it a multiversal weapon would require it being able to destroy more on the magnitudes of dozens up dozens of universes at the same time.

And nothing I see about the Armageddon Sapphire makes it any more than a universal weapon. Davros' Reality bomb is still the far more impressive weapon between the two.

Sorry but this is incorrect.

The Reality Bomb would spread to every universe, parallel reality etc.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb

That is why it was so dangerous.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb

Again will destroy the whole Who multiverse.


Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine? Glad we made you the judge. :smallwink:

Lol...


Evidence that this was an M-body and not the actual Living Tribunal?

I'd have to find the thread concerned, but it actually was retconned.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Protege_(Earth-691)


If it is, you haven't proved it at all.

I don't need. I cannot prove a negative - you need to show the opposite though, they considering the retcon Scathan is now powerful enough to take on the Time Lords.

[Rogerd]

Is it capable of not being blinked out of existence by a being capable of altering reality on a whim? Its not about who can create the biggest bang, Q can just make something not exist. Its not blowing it up, its straight up saying "Be not." and having that thing vanish from existence.

No, that won't work as the Transduction Barrier protects them. From what we know of the Q and the Eternals they have the same power levels, only Who goes into a bit more detail.


See, this is the problem when it comes to arguing about gods. It becomes a big he said she said game of "Nuh uh!" "Yu HUH!" And as for Quinn, its been awhile, but wasnt he talking about some abstract limit along the lines of "money cant buy love" instead of a hard and fast actual power limit?

I'm afraid not.

http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/210.htm



QUINN: But you mustn't think of us as omnipotent, no matter what the Continuum would like you to believe. You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to lifeforms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us. We may appear omnipotent to you, but believe me, we're not.
TUVOK: Intriguing. Just what vulnerabilities do the Q have?

[Tanuki Tales]

Sorry but this is incorrect.

The Reality Bomb would spread to every universe, parallel reality etc.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb

That is why it was so dangerous.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Reality_bomb

Again will destroy the whole Who multiverse.

Yeah...no.

It was mostly assumed and never actually shown that the Reality Bomb was capable of that. It's quite safe to assume that it was, bare minimum, a Universal level weapon, since we know Time Lord level races are capable of making such things.

We know that the Whoverse is made up of at least 11 universes (The main one, the 9 witnessed parallel realities, Calabi-Yau Space and The Void), but we don't know that it is as sprawling as a multiverse proper.

And, I re-iterate, it took a lot of prep and the lack of existence of high tiered races capable of detecting such shenanigans for Davros to attempt to pull it off.

So I'm still failing to see the Time Lords being capable of casual universe busting without extensive prep. Which doesn't help them against races who's every single member are more than capable of casual universe busting.





I'd have to find the thread concerned, but it actually was retconned.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Protege_(Earth-691)

I know who Protege is and all you did when linking to that was prove my point, not disprove.

If you find the thread though, let me know.




I don't need. I cannot prove a negative - you need to show the opposite though, they considering the retcon Scathan is now powerful enough to take on the Time Lords.

Actually, I've already proven my positive by comparing what the best weapons the Time Lord could possess are and how they are on par with things weaker than the Celestials, let alone someone one step below a True Omnipotent like Scathan.

You're the one who's failing to debunk any of that.

[Rogerd]

Yeah...no.

It was mostly assumed and never actually shown that the Reality Bomb was capable of that. It's quite safe to assume that it was, bare minimum, a Universal level weapon, since we know Time Lord level races are capable of making such things.

Either provide proof that my evidence is wrong or we get a Mod in here.


We know that the Whoverse is made up of at least 11 universes (The main one, the 9 witnessed parallel realities, Calabi-Yau Space and The Void), but we don't know that it is as sprawling as a multiverse proper.

Wrong. It has millions of other universes, each of which comprises 11 dimensions.


And, I re-iterate, it took a lot of prep and the lack of existence of high tiered races capable of detecting such shenanigans for Davros to attempt to pull it off.

So I'm still failing to see the Time Lords being capable of casual universe busting without extensive prep. Which doesn't help them against races who's every single member are more than capable of casual universe busting.

See first quote. Evidence submitted so either provide counter evidence or concede.


I know who Protege is and all you did when linking to that was prove my point, not disprove.

If you find the thread though, let me know.

Wrong, and again not reading what is posted.


the Tribunal was later retconned as a mere manifestation body

http://marvel.wikia.com/Protege_(Earth-691)


Actually, I've already proven my positive by comparing what the best weapons the Time Lord could possess

And shown you are wrong.


are and how they fall short of things weaker than the Celestials

You stated, no proof was submitted.


let alone someone one step below a True Omnipotent like Scathan.

Citation required


You're the only who's failing to debunk any of that.

Shifting the burden of proof.

[Tanuki Tales]

Either provide proof that my evidence is wrong or we get a Mod in here.

Yeah...this?

This right here?

I have no clue why you're saying something so incredibly brusque and hostile as that, nor why you feel it's necessary, but it shows me you're either taking this way too seriously, or you aren't aware of how things are handled in the Playground.

Either way, I'm going to dip out here before this escalates to the point where a Mod would feel the need to take part.

[Traab]

No, that won't work as the Transduction Barrier protects them. From what we know of the Q and the Eternals they have the same power levels, only Who goes into a bit more detail.



I'm afraid not.

http://www.chakoteya.net/voyager/210.htm

Yeah, and then he lists those "vulnerabilities"


Not just manners, but mortality, and a sense of purpose, and a desire for change, and a capacity to grow. Every loss is a new vulnerability, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, thats why he claims the Q arent omnipotent, because they have gotten rude and are immortal.

[Rogerd]

Yeah, and then he lists those "vulnerabilities"

Yeah, thats why he claims the Q arent omnipotent, because they have gotten rude and are immortal.

Utter rubbish. Quinn states that they aren't omnipotent.

Those lack of manners have nothing to do with it.

In fact if you had bothered to read it properly instead is mis-quoting: those lack of manners is in effect their lack of empathy or understanding with lesser lifeforms, thus a vulnerability.

[Traab]

Utter rubbish. Quinn states that they aren't omnipotent.

Those lack of manners have nothing to do with it.

In fact if you had bothered to read it properly instead is mis-quoting: those lack of manners is in effect their lack of empathy or understanding with lesser lifeforms, thus a vulnerability.

I read the entire episode thanks. He thinks the Q are not omnipotent because they dont go out learning new things. He doesnt claim there are beings more powerful, he doesnt say they are weak, he just claims they are not all powerful because they lack some things that have little to no bearing on this fight. I dont see the time lords winning because the continuum sucks at etiquette. I dont see the Q getting wiped out because they dont desire to change.

I DO however see the suicidal Q take them to before the birth of the universe, shrinking them to subatomic particles while still remaining fully human. Can you even comprehend the level of reality manipulation that involves? They reduced an entire ship and its full crew compliment to a size smaller than an atom, and retained its full functionality as a ship, as well as the existence of the crew. All that with a hand gesture and will.

[Rogerd]

I read the entire episode thanks. He thinks the Q are not omnipotent because they dont go out learning new things. He doesnt claim there are beings more powerful, he doesnt say they are weak, he just claims they are not all powerful because they lack some things that have little to no bearing on this fight. I dont see the time lords winning because the continuum sucks at etiquette. I dont see the Q getting wiped out because they dont desire to change.



I DO however see the suicidal Q take them to before the birth of the universe, shrinking them to subatomic particles while still remaining fully human. Can you even comprehend the level of reality manipulation that involves? They reduced an entire ship and its full crew compliment to a size smaller than an atom, and retained its full functionality as a ship, as well as the existence of the crew. All that with a hand gesture and will.

Sorry but the Transduction Barrier will stop all that. It will stop an Eternal, it'll stop a Q. In fact a War Tardis can kill an Eternal, and thus a Q.

http://fyeahgallifreyanculture.tumblr.com/post/22993776111/gallifreyan-technology-the-transduction-barrier

EDIT: In fact we see the Master fight some Chronovores in Quantum Archangel.

[Traab]

It prevented invasion on the atomic level,

Just an interesting note, as we have already seen Q can easily travel on a sub atomic level. Not only can he transform himself to subatomic levels, he can transport himself and anything he wants with him while subatomic, meaning he shrinks himself then teleports through the barrier. And once inside the barrier, it can be easily brought down.

[Rogerd]

Just an interesting note, as we have already seen Q can easily travel on a sub atomic level. Not only can he transform himself to subatomic levels, he can transport himself and anything he wants with him while subatomic, meaning he shrinks himself then teleports through the barrier. And once inside the barrier, it can be easily brought down.

sorry, but it won't work.

http://whatis.suburbansenshi.com/index.php?title=Gallifrey


Transduction barriers separate Gallifrey's continuity and history from the rest of the universe by locating it in a micro-universe outside of time. Thus, when you are on Gallifrey, you are outside of the universe. In addition to this, its past is protected by powerful temporal baffels, temporal locks, and governing circuits built into all Gallifreyan time travel technology.

The barrier was breached once by the Sontarans when it was sabotaged from within. The transduction barriers shift the planet outside of the space time continuum and into its own microuniverse of inner time. The barriers are a 10 dimensonal defense field that can prevent enerything from atomic sized infiltrations to spaceship landings. They also allow their primary star's sunlight and gravity to reach them, but block all weapons fire or kamikaze runs.

The Lord President's Rassilon Imprimatur and presidential code allow him and his TARDIS to pass through the transduction barrier at will. When a timeship passes through the transduction barriers, the effect is visible from Gallifrey's surface.

They are totally impervious unless it is lowered.

EDIT: Does this make it a no-limits fallacy. Of course not. We know from the series where Tennant Doctor does the Nightmare Child speech....even he admits it can only take so much.

EDIT 2: I'll see if I can find something more canon.

However, there is nothing to suggest they can even get through, on the grounds that Quinn was imprisoned in an asteroid breached by a Trek transporter.

[Rogerd]

Tik is a Whovian and lists some events relating to the Time War: How was the Time War fought? (http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/how-was-the-time-war-fought.248884/page-2#post-10153028)

EDIT: As to the power of the Q, they had limits:

Even the Colonel Q was worried about subspace - "If we don't end this war quickly, the damage to subspace will be irreversible." Obviously the damage to subspace was a top worry for all Q.

[grolim]

However, there is nothing to suggest they can even get through, on the grounds that Quinn was imprisoned in an asteroid breached by a Trek transporter.

True but like most prisons it was built to be proof against breaking out not in.
What would stop the Q from examining this barrier, then making their own form of it around the other barrier? So that as the Tl try to leave Gallifrey from its pocket universe they instead leave into a pocket universe their pocket universe was put into and locked? It is like the time game from Bill and Ted, infinite regression and shenanigans.