[3.x] Perception vs. Strength

[Bickerstaff]

Let me start off by saying that I'm making a character (gestalt) that is going to be going into a megadungeon-type adventure.

It's a martial character, and I'm trying to get more Strength on him. I was looking at taking Warhulk levels, but the fact my Int/Wis/Cha based skills (excepting Intimidate) get shafted by the first level makes me somewhat apprehensive.

This wouldn't be a problem for this character normally, but Perception is probably going to be a big deal in what is mostly likely a heavily trap/ambush/etc. -laden dungeon.

So, should I rely on the other party members to be able to see those things coming, and try and punch my way out of anything I get caught in? Or should I abstain from Warhulk levels and find more Strength somewhere else?

[herrhauptmann]

What would be the other half of your warhulk character?

[Deophaun]

I'd be a little concerned in a megadungeon, as there's always the possibility that you get separated from the group. If that happens, then you're pretty much boned as a War Hulk. You really need to talk with the other players and see if they will tie a figurative bell on you (dragoneye rune from Dragon Magic, cast on you and items you possess, would be perfect) in addition to pulling Perception duty.

There's also the question of what the other half of your gestalt is. If Perception is never a class skill for you, then there's no real need to worry about losing it.

Also suggest you look at the Dungeon Crasher Fighter ACF in Dungeonscape for help with Strength. It's not a straight Strength boost, but it does add a hefty bonus to Strength checks to break objects (+10 if you go all the way to Fighter 6) in addition to an attack mode which is perfect for the tight confines of a dungeon.

[Bickerstaff]

Thanks for the advice guys!

The other half is Teramach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286983) (super fun class, can't wait to try it out :smallbiggrin:). The half with the Warhulk has some templates and either Warblade or Unarmed Swordsage (haven't played an initiator before, decided to try one out).

I think I might just forsake Warhulk and go for Strength from other sources. And I might be able to fit some Dungeoncrasher in there somewhere. I'm not super great at optimising or anything, but I'll figure it out.

[Segev]

Just because you have 0 ranks in Perception doesn't mean you can't use it. Try to talk a friend with the skill into taking Craft Wondrous Item at level 3, and have him forge and upgrade items of +Perception, keeping the competence bonus equal to your level. Pay him for it out of your loot, and be willing to pay full price if he's not kind enough to offer a discount. (He is investing in a feat on your behalf, after all.)

You won't be the best spotter in the group, but you'll keep up with anybody investing cross-class skill ranks in it consistently who isn't pumping their Wis.

The actual perception-monger of the party may see what you're doing and do the same thing; this means he'll be at least twice as good as you at Perception, but hey, that just makes the party better at spotting stuff!

[ddude987]

Just because you have 0 ranks in Perception doesn't mean you can't use it.

It does it you are warhulk

[Andezzar]

No, it does not:

No Time to Think (Ex): A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills (whether or not he has bought ranks in them previously). The only exception is the Intimidate skill, which works normally.That is the only change to INT, WIS and CHA based skills. He only cannot use those skills that require training, just like any other character with 0 ranks in them.

[Segev]

Also, if you're using temporary tools to become Large, you arguably lose your PrC class features when you fail to meet the prereq. This allows a War Hulk to become Medium or smaller, lose his Str bonuses (and various hit-things class features), and ALSO lose his "feature" of being treated as if he has 0 ranks in mental-ability-tied skills.

[Andezzar]

Also, if you're using temporary tools to become Large, you arguably lose your PrC class features when you fail to meet the prereq. This allows a War Hulk to become Medium or smaller, lose his Str bonuses (and various hit-things class features), and ALSO lose his "feature" of being treated as if he has 0 ranks in mental-ability-tied skills.As far as I know only Complete Warrior and one other book has a rule that you must fulfill the prerequisites all the time. For all other prestige classes you only need to fulfill the prerequisites on level up.

[Deophaun]

Also, if you're using temporary tools to become Large, you arguably lose your PrC class features when you fail to meet the prereq.
Arguably, but then that rule technically only applies Complete Warrior PrCs, and it would break the Dragon Disciple and probably a few other PrCs if applied generally.

[Segev]

Yeah, hence "arguably." It really depends on what you want to talk to your DM about, and since this is a case of practical, rather than theoretical optimization, talking to the DM is the solution. You'll get an answer one way or t'other.

If he's letting you qualify only to take the first level, you save on needing to maintain your size, at least, but you definitely will be item-dependent for having decent Perception.

Personally, I wouldn't abandon a desire for a particular class just over one skill.

[ddude987]

As far as I know only Complete Warrior and one other book has a rule that you must fulfill the prerequisites all the time. For all other prestige classes you only need to fulfill the prerequisites on level up.

IIRC complete mage or arcane cant remember which also states that

[Deophaun]

IIRC complete mage or arcane cant remember which also states that
You're right. Complete Arcane also has that statement.

[Asteron]

In my most recent (gestalt) game, we removed Wisdom based skills from No Time to Think as it mostly represents intuition and instinct, which isn't the same as thinking. After all, even animals can have decent Wisdom scores and be good at things like Survival and Perception... it's not overpowering and certainly isn't out of flavor.

[Bickerstaff]

Thanks for the input!

I think I will talk to my DM about omitting Wis-based skills from No Time To Think. If that fails, I think Perception is going to be too useful to let fall by the wayside, regardless of any +Perception items I have (though that was a good suggestion, and one I didn't think of :smallwink:).