[E6] Arcane Swordsage

[Gemini476]

Would an Arcane Swordsage be broken in E6? Assuming that he can only learn personal and touch spells from the schools of Transmutation, Abjuration and Evocation, and those are "cast" as maneuvers, how broken would he be? As Maneuvers, they cannot be modified by Metamagic and have are not advanced by Prestige Classes that improve spells.

While an Arcane Swordsage would only have two third-level spells, he can recover all of them as a full-round action through Adaptive Style, or one as a swift action through Sudden Recovery. For what spells would this be broken?

Remember that an Arcane Swordsage loses his Light Armour Proficiency and only gets a d6 Hit Die, but let's assume that he still gets Wis to AC.

I'm mostly wondering because the environment of play is so very different in E6, what with the Ranger being top tier and Dread Necromancers just ridiculous. It's very interesting, but there really isn't enough documentation about it.

[Nightraiderx]

I once started making a list for an Arcane swordsage, I feel that it should be extended to wujen spells of that flavor on top of the usual sorc/wiz list.
They can get some nice stuff, like swift action blood wind. an unarmed/arcane swordsage was pretty fun, and if you are a warforged, you can get yourself self healing as well. Kamehameha'd all over using the descisive strike monk alt with this.

also including the wu jen list means you can make a lightning sword to fight with.

you can still wear -0 armor penalty armors without issue. (chain shirt)

[Ekul]

Heroics is crazy early game.

With Heroics, you can just stack feats upon feats onto yourself, and since you have a 10 min/level casting time, well, that means you can just take like a minute to throw 5 feats onto yourself that lasts for another 30 minutes.

Some people claim you can use Heroics -> Martial Study to gain more spells since spells have become manuevers, but reading it in this way is insanity and you should not do it lest you want Heroics to become a spell that begets all spells.

So you could become basically every fighter build at once (barring ACFs) with merely 3 levels. (Although due to the way initiator levels work, you could also wait until level 3 to start taking swordsage levels and only take 2 or wait till 5 and only take one.)

To be honest being able to become any fighter is not THAT broken, but it does prevent real fighters from filling any niche except the tanking niche, which was never really theirs to begin with.

[Nightraiderx]

The lack of BAB makes an E6 arcane swordsage limited to everything below +6
BAB shenanigans so the fighter can still effectively keep his niche with tactical feats. Also, I don't know if heroics effects stack with themselves or that the previous casting replaces your current casting...

[GreenETC]

Just thinking of some good spells, you could get Alter Self, Heroics, Resist Energy, Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Enlarge Person, Combust, Shatter, Expeditious Retreat, Knock, Haste, Fly, Heart of Water, Gust of Wind, and Wind Wall.

I think some of those would get a bit crazy if you could do them forever outside of combat. But without Polymorph, it's not really all that bad.

[Runestar]

I am having a very hard time visualising how an arcane swordsage might play out in and outside of combat. Any examples?

For example, does he have to choose which spells to ready ahead of time, or can he cast them spontaneously? He has 6 slots. So he can prepare 6 different spells, cast each 1/encounter or until refreshed?

Just from core alone, a swordsage can know 3 of the following 3rd lv spells (assuming he swaps out a lower lv spell known for a new 3rd lv spell).


Blink
Daylight
Fly
Gaseous Form
Secret Page
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
Magic Circle
Protection from energy
Non detection
Explosive runes

Assuming each can only be cast 1/encounter without refresh (which is actually quite cumbersome), I don't see them as game-breaking. What you have to look out for, is the possibility that he may try to spam them as at-will abilities outside of combat, where time usually isn't an issue.

For example, he can keep buffs like water-breathing, protection from energy and non-detection up on the entire party for virtually the whole day (since each has a fairly long duration, and he can cast all his buff spells on a single PC, refresh everything as a full round action via adaptive style, then rinse and repeat until the entire party is buffed). Even fly and gaseous form is not impossible if the duration required is not that long.

For attack spells his options seem far more limited. I see only shocking grasp and alter self as viable choices (and you can't really spam them). He can keep the key stat booster of his choice up 24/7 (either bull's str or cat's grace), but the benefit isn't really gamebreaking enough, IMO, to warrant concern. Or at worst, just refresh endurance on the entire party every 5 minutes.

Basically, I would play him as the party's buffer. I am not sure how game-breaking it will be though. At lv7, he would basically get polymorph at will...:smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It would still be grossly overpowered.

A Swordsage 6 knows 11 maneuvers, and can take Martial Study three times and get a (variant of) Crown of the White Raven to gain more. That means five 1st, three 2nd, and three 3rd level maneuvers from his class alone. He can start with some 1st level actual maneuvers early on to qualify for stances, then swap them out at 4th and 6th level to have nothing but spells. Stances count as maneuvers for qualifying for other maneuvers and stances, so he can easily have Child of Shadow, Island of Blades, and Assassin's Stance.

Anything with a duration of 10 minutes/level lasts an hour at 6th level, so any such spells can be presumed to be always active on anyone they can target. Same goes for any spells with a longer duration, such as an hour/level. He could put Ebon Eyes on the whole party and put Darkness on everything they carry. The whole party can have Resist Energy five times, Protection from Arrows, and he can have Magic Circle against Evil always on. He could use Keen Edge on every weapon the party has, and use Nerveskitter and Haste at the start of every encounter. He can use anything he knows at will, such as Alarm or Shrink Item...

If you throw in Heroics (2nd), it gets even more overpowered. Heroics temporarily grants the target a Fighter bonus feat, which can be Martial Study. Regardless of what discipline is chosen for Martial Study, an Arcane Swordsage has the option of learning an arcane spell in place of a given maneuver, including the one granted by Martial Study. That means all of those long-duration buffs don't even need to occupy his maneuvers known, as he can learn one, use it, and then dismiss Heroics to pick up the next one. That means every 10 minute/level or longer buff is available to him at-will. Any given spell that he could learn is available to him after two rounds (initiate Heroics, activate Adaptive Style).

This is all easily fixed if you make it so any spell with a duration of 10 minutes/level or longer is learned as a stance instead of a maneuver. Still, having Magic Circle against Evil always active is a bit much, and buffing the party with half a dozen minute/level spells before they open every door can make a game drag on.

[Runestar]

Anything with a duration of 10 minutes/level lasts an hour at 6th level, so any such spells can be presumed to be always active on anyone they can target. Same goes for any spells with a longer duration, such as an hour/level. He could put Ebon Eyes on the whole party and put Darkness on everything they carry. The whole party can have Resist Energy five times, Protection from Arrows, and he can have Magic Circle against Evil always on. He could use Keen Edge on every weapon the party has, and use Nerveskitter and Haste at the start of every encounter. He can use anything he knows at will, such as Alarm or Shrink Item...

Quite a few of your spells can't be selected by a swordsage. Keen Edge, Nerveskitter and Haste have a range of close (they aren't personal or touch). You are spot on about alarm and shrink item though, and I hadn't though about stacking multiple castings of resist energy. :smalltongue:

[Emmerask]

Well it pretty much completely depends on your dm.
If I remember correctly the arcane swordsage alternative did really have (nearly) no rules attached to it other then that the spells should be thematic, so your dm has the final say what is and is not allowed.

So it can range anywhere from okay to overpowered imo.

[Hytheter]

He can start with some 1st level actual maneuvers early on to qualify for stances, then swap them out at 4th and 6th level to have nothing but spells. Stances count as maneuvers for qualifying for other maneuvers and stances, so he can easily have Child of Shadow, Island of Blades, and Assassin's Stance.

Having access both Maneuvers and Spells within a single class is obviously ridiculous and I doubt anyone would allow that. It's spells instead of maneuvers, not picking and choosing as best conveniences you.


This is all easily fixed if you make it so any spell with a duration of 10 minutes/level or longer is learned as a stance instead of a maneuver.

This is a pretty cool idea.


Obviously the whole thing needs fleshing out though. Remember it's not an official variant, its just a throwaway idea suggested in a single paragraph. And like anything you make yourself you need to work with your DM, and apply some sense and logic, to make something that works and isn't broken.

edit:

Well it pretty much completely depends on your dm.
If I remember correctly the arcane swordsage alternative did really have (nearly) no rules attached to it other then that the spells should be thematic, so your dm has the final say what is and is not allowed.

So it can range anywhere from okay to overpowered imo.
this basically

more edit:

Quite a few of your spells can't be selected by a swordsage. Keen Edge, Nerveskitter and Haste have a range of close (they aren't personal or touch). You are spot on about alarm and shrink item though, and I hadn't though about stacking multiple castings of resist energy. :smalltongue:

There is no "can't" be selected. The paragraph says that personal and touch spells are especially thematic, not that anything else should be outright excluded.
And even if it did, there's nothing official here; if you're already working outside the system you shouldn't have to follow that single paragraph word for word.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Having access both Maneuvers and Spells within a single class is obviously ridiculous and I doubt anyone would allow that. It's spells instead of maneuvers, not picking and choosing as best conveniences you.

That couldn't be any further from accurate. An Arcane Swordsage still learns maneuvers and stances as normal, he's able to choose an arcane spell in place of a maneuver when desired, but he can still pick maneuvers from the standard list.

[Runestar]

I think to keep it fair, limit spells to personal or touch only. Even spells which can normally be cast on other people can only be cast on yourself (so he can cast cat's grace on himself, but not on the party rogue).

Expand his repertoire to allow more touch or close-range attack spells (like vampiric touch or scorching ray) to improve his options in combat. As a general rule of thumb, they should allow attack rolls, and not be auto-hit spells to preserve the "martial" flavour.

Shorten buff durations to "encounter", so he can't rebuff. If he wants to benefit from protection from energy, he must cast it in the first round of combat, not immediately before. If he wants to use them outside of combat, try working something out with the DM. Flight-at-will sounds broken, but remember that the warlock already gets it.

Basically, the idea is that he plays like some soft of melee warlock, so I think you can try comparing the two if you need a yardstick. :smallsmile:

[Hytheter]

That couldn't be any further from accurate. An Arcane Swordsage still learns maneuvers and stances as normal, he's able to choose an arcane spell in place of a maneuver when desired, but he can still pick maneuvers from the standard list.

Oh yeah, I did misread that bit, sorry. I stand by the first sentence of it though, that it's pretty ridiculous.

Then again, it depends on what spells you allow them. I mean, from an earlier post someone listed these spells:
Blink
Daylight
Fly
Gaseous Form
Secret Page
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
Magic Circle
Protection from energy
Non detection
Explosive runes
They may fit the vague requirements set out in book, but not all of them are really appropriate. Blink, Fly? Sure, I can see that for a combat dude. Gaseous form? Not so much. Explosive runes? Now you're getting silly. The Swordsage's thing is (melee) combat, and the spells he gets should be thematically appropriate. This goes back to what I was saying: this is not an official rule. You've gotta puzzle this out make sure the result is balanced and flavourful. If you let him have every spell ever, well obviously that's overpowered, not to mention nonsensical. But if you narrow down his list, it becomes gradually less powerful until you get something acceptable from both a balance and flavour standpoint.

I think the Duskblade spell list would be an excellent place to start, since Duskblades and Swordsages fit a similar niche of "supernatural fighter".

although, then you start begging the question "why not play Duskblade?"

[Komatik]

Gaseous Form is a perfectly fitting spell for an assassin hiding in the shadows.

[Runestar]

I think the Duskblade spell list would be an excellent place to start, since Duskblades and Swordsages fit a similar niche of "supernatural fighter".

although, then you start begging the question "why not play Duskblade?"

Well, if they both share similar spell lists, then there may not be much incentive to. Though the duskblade gets way fewer and less powerful buffs overall. The arcane swordsage appears to have weaker raw combat potential overall, and so should get better buffs to compensate. I would actually view him as more of a psychic warrior variant than a duskblade wannabe.

He can theoretically access buffs like alter self, polymorph, all of the polymorph-subscholl spells (those spells that only let you transform into one single, pre-determined monster), and eventually shapechange (if the game goes that far). That's gotta be worth something. :smalltongue:

[Hytheter]

Gaseous Form is a perfectly fitting spell for an assassin hiding in the shadows.

Hm, I suppose it is in line with the Shadow Hand discipline. I was already kind of on the fence tbh.

But the point I'm trying to make is, most of the maneuvers work exclusively, or at least most effectively, during combat, with an emphasis on hitting dudes with your weapon (you know, swordsage). So It stands to reason that the spells an Arcane Swordsage would be similar.
So many of the most useful utility spells are probably out. Blasting spells should probably be limited or removed.

[Komatik]

Btw. An assassin with Shivering Touch, Alter Self, Gaseous Form. Invisibility. :smalleek:

[Runestar]

Btw. An assassin with Shivering Touch, Alter Self, Gaseous Form. Invisibility. :smalleek:

You have just discovered one of numerous ways in which arcane swordsage can be broken, and you weren't even trying...:smallamused:

[Komatik]

Well I wasn't trying to go for breaking the world or anything. Thematic and a smidge broken is much better ^^