What should a barbarian be able to do? (3.5) [Archive]

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Equilibria

2013-08-28, 11:29 AM

Hello Play Grounders.

I´m in the process of a major overhaul of the 3.5 rules, and to do that i need your help.

The goal is to put every class solidly in the low tier three/high tier 4.

I´m starting with the barbarian and have a couple of questions.

1) What role should you play in combat when you play a barbarian?

I personally think that to play a barbarian is to play someone who doesn´t bother much with protecting himself, but rather endures/soaks up any damage/effects that comes his way, while being able to outdamage most other melee classes.

2) what should a barbarian be able to contribute with outside of combat, better than any other class?

Should he be able to intimidate, survive in the wilds or what?

3) What class features should a barbarian have?

4) What homebrew or other sources do you think i could use for inspiration (please link)

Also, i urge you to post any and all thoughts you may have on the subject, and i ask everyone not to shoot down any ideas as, at this point i need all the inspiration i can get.

Thanks in advance everyone :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 11:31 AM

The barbarian shouldn't be a class, frankly. It should be a series of ACFs for other classes to make them less 'civilized'.

DeltaEmil

2013-08-28, 11:32 AM

Step number one. Stop calling the Barbarian a barbarian. Call him/her a Berserker.

Step number two. Make Berserker a subclass of Fighter, or even better, a Fighter path class feature, together with Ranger, and Paladin, and Knight, and Warblade, and Crusader, and Duskblade, and Hexblade.

Flickerdart

2013-08-28, 11:39 AM

The barbarian's iconic ability is Rage, but it's not really a fighting style and there are loads of rages. A character that "feels" like a barbarian would have the option to enter a state in combat that makes him better at fighting and worse at not fighting and...that's basically it. Make Rage a feat chain and move on.

Segev

2013-08-28, 11:40 AM

Eh, if you're going that route, Fax, you may as well pare everything back to "Cleric," "Fighter," "Rogue," and "Wizard," and then make "nature" ACFs for the fighter (barbarian), rogue (scout), and Cleric (druid), then allow mixing via ACFs of fighter and cleric (Paladin; add nature ACFs for Ranger); make a "spontaneous" ACF for Wizards to produce Sorcerers, and combination ACFs of Wizard and Rogue for Bards.

To more directly answer the OP, I think a barbarian should be the one who can take more raw damage, but can't mitigate it as well. He dishes it out hard and in person, and he has a hint of being out-of-control, which should also translate to a difficulty (whether through bonuses to Will saves or other means) to actually enslave him because he's just that focused on doing his monstrous thing. He should be able to ignore the effects of harmful things, but only while he keeps himself hyped up. He should crash afterwards.

Out of combat, he should share a bit with the Ranger in terms of wilderness survival. He is less "friend of nature" and more "untouched by nature." He is in command of nature by being too great for it to inconvenience and by knowing it well enough to get what he wants from it. This contrasts with the "civilized" man's way of dominating nature because he doesn't retreat from it and tame it; he conquers it and dwells within it as its master rather than its distant ruler.

Dealing with others, he is good at intimidation and at impressing them with physicality. If friendly, he might be that rough bro of a friend you have, but he'll never win over high society with manners and wit. If smart and clever, he'll win through directness and through ignoring self-imposed limitations of society. If dumb and brutish, he'll win by taking the most direct path...through walls, if needs be.

Feralventas

2013-08-28, 11:44 AM

Agreeing with the notion of the two above.

Berzerker Fighter Variant.

Replace 1st level Fighter Bonus Feat with the Barb's Rage Feature.
At 3rd level, grant them the Monk's Fast Movement feature in any light or medium armor or no armor.
At 5th level give them DR/- equal to half their class levels in this variant (Round down)
At 7th level give them a competence bonus to Jump, Tumble, Climb and Balance checks equal to 1/2 their level.
Replace the 10th level Fighter Bonus Feat with Greater Rage as per normal Barb.
At 13th level, grant 1 additional attack at full BAB on a full attack.
Replace 16th level Fighter bonus feat with Mighty Rage.

Also consider granting Martial Study as a freebie at 4th and every 4 levels after that.

Flickerdart

2013-08-28, 11:45 AM

Morgarion

2013-08-28, 11:55 AM

Greenish

2013-08-28, 11:59 AM

I was wondering how you were going to derive the monk from this strategy, and then I saw that you didn't. Funny.Monk would be a fighter that couldn't afford weapons or armour.

GolemsVoice

2013-08-28, 12:17 PM

What a Barbarian should be able to do?

Crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentation of their women!

Deophaun

2013-08-28, 12:20 PM

What a Barbarian should be able to do?

Crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentation of their women!
Damn. Just coming here to post that...

Greenish

2013-08-28, 12:21 PM

Crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentation of their women!I can't believe it took me this long to realize why barbarians had Listen as a class skill. I must be thick.

Nightraiderx

2013-08-28, 12:23 PM

I always have felt Barbarians should be more tribal and in tune with nautre as hunters and survivalists. There's a TOB homebrew class that mixes them up really well but I forget it's name.

Gettles

2013-08-28, 12:31 PM

1) What role should you play in combat when you play a barbarian?
Get pissed off and hurt things.

2) what should a barbarian be able to contribute with outside of combat, better than any other class?

Should he be able to intimidate, survive in the wilds or what?
Yes

3) What class features should a barbarian have?

Anger issues, the ability to throw castles at higher levels. Start as Conan, end as The Hulk.

Segev

2013-08-28, 01:03 PM

I was wondering how you were going to derive the monk from this strategy, and then I saw that you didn't. Funny.

Not intentionally.

But yeah, a monk would probably be done with a far more extensive unarmed tree, applied to either a cleric (if cleric spells could be adapted to do their various supernatural tricks) or a fighter (if they're determined to be more "warrior" than "mystic").

Equilibria

2013-08-28, 01:04 PM

Wow, thanks for all the speedý replies.

Fax Celestis: The barbarian shouldn't be a class, frankly. It should be a series of ACFs for other classes to make them less 'civilized'.

But if i was adamant to keep it a class.

DeltaEmil: Step number one. Stop calling the Barbarian a barbarian. Call him/her a Berserker.

Step number two. Make Berserker a subclass of Fighter, or even better, a Fighter path class feature, together with Ranger, and Paladin, and Knight, and Warblade, and Crusader, and Duskblade, and Hexblade.

Ah, good point. Must a barbarian be a berserker, or are there more to him. Are there other ways to interpret the barbarian?

Flickerdart: The barbarian's iconic ability is Rage, but it's not really a fighting style and there are loads of rages. A character that "feels" like a barbarian would have the option to enter a state in combat that makes him better at fighting and worse at not fighting and...that's basically it. Make Rage a feat chain and move on.

Agreed, but do you have some ideas as to what (class featurewise) would make them better at fighting.
What if i wanted to make the barbarian interesting enough that he warranted a class of his own?

Also, what are these rages?

Segev: To more directly answer the OP, I think a barbarian should be the one who can take more raw damage, but can't mitigate it as well. He dishes it out hard and in person, and he has a hint of being out-of-control, which should also translate to a difficulty (whether through bonuses to Will saves or other means) to actually enslave him because he's just that focused on doing his monstrous thing. He should be able to ignore the effects of harmful things, but only while he keeps himself hyped up. He should crash afterwards.

Out of combat, he should share a bit with the Ranger in terms of wilderness survival. He is less "friend of nature" and more "untouched by nature." He is in command of nature by being too great for it to inconvenience and by knowing it well enough to get what he wants from it. This contrasts with the "civilized" man's way of dominating nature because he doesn't retreat from it and tame it; he conquers it and dwells within it as its master rather than its distant ruler.

Dealing with others, he is good at intimidation and at impressing them with physicality. If friendly, he might be that rough bro of a friend you have, but he'll never win over high society with manners and wit. If smart and clever, he'll win through directness and through ignoring self-imposed limitations of society. If dumb and brutish, he'll win by taking the most direct path...through walls, if needs be.

Ah Segev, you are fast becoming one of my favorite people on this forum. I couldn´t agree with you more. Playing a Barbarian should be like playing John Mcclane on steroids.

If you have any ideas as to how he should be able to conquer nature i would be very grateful. You see while i agree with you i have no idea how to do it.

Feralventas: Agreeing with the notion of the two above.

Berzerker Fighter Variant.

Replace 1st level Fighter Bonus Feat with the Barb's Rage Feature.
At 3rd level, grant them the Monk's Fast Movement feature in any light or medium armor or no armor.
At 5th level give them DR/- equal to half their class levels in this variant (Round down)
At 7th level give them a competence bonus to Jump, Tumble, Climb and Balance checks equal to 1/2 their level.
Replace the 10th level Fighter Bonus Feat with Greater Rage as per normal Barb.
At 13th level, grant 1 additional attack at full BAB on a full attack.
Replace 16th level Fighter bonus feat with Mighty Rage.

Also consider granting Martial Study as a freebie at 4th and every 4 levels after that.

But i so want to keep it a class... But then it needs something more than "I GET ANGRY AND HIT A LITTLE HARDER AND CAN TAKE MORE PHYSICAL DAMAGE". What could accomplish this?

Oh,and i would very much like not to mix ToB in with the barbarian.

GolemsVoice: What a Barbarian should be able to do?

Crush his enemies, see them driven before him, and hear the lamentation of their women!

And how should we change the class to enable the barbarian to do that?

Greenish: I can't believe it took me this long to realize why barbarians had Listen as a class skill. I must be thick.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh my tummy:smallbiggrin:

Nightraiderx: I always have felt Barbarians should be more tribal and in tune with nautre as hunters and survivalists. There's a TOB homebrew class that mixes them up really well but I forget it's name.

And how do we give the barbarian that feel?
If you could find the homebrew, i would be very grateful.

Thanks for the answers guys... Keep ´em coming.

Psyren

2013-08-28, 01:14 PM

Agreed, but do you have some ideas as to what (class featurewise) would make them better at fighting.
What if i wanted to make the barbarian interesting enough that he warranted a class of his own?

For the record I agree with Flickerdart. The way I see it is this:

Barbarian = instinctive martial
Fighter = trained martial

This is a similar dichotomy to the Sorcerer vs. Wizard. What would this mean in practice? Well, I would say that the "Fighter" (or perhaps Soldier?) should be the more technique-based warrior. The Barbarian meanwhile would have a lot less finesse but capable of bringing more force/resilience to bear.

For instance, if they both had to take down an enemy spellcaster - the Fighter would be the one that knows special techniques/maneuvers to disrupt, avoid, and otherwise overcome the spells until he gets close enough for the killing blow. The Barbarian meanwhile would get hit with the spells, but be more likely to power through them or shrug them off.

3.5 and PF unfortunately don't do enough to enforce this division; Fighters get more feats, but the feats themselves are weak, and the few that do provide technique-based fighting are just as easy for Barbarians to access. So what you end up having in practice is that Barbarians are superior in almost every way.

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 01:17 PM

But if i was adamant to keep it a class.

The most damaging phrase in the language is: 'It's always been done that way.'

Wherever I see people doing something the way it's always been done, the way it's 'supposed' to be done, following the same old trends, well, that's just a big red flag to me to go look somewhere else.

"That's the way it's always been done" is a terrible reason to do something.

Nightraiderx

2013-08-28, 01:18 PM

Found it, it's called Wildheart
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192596

Also another class feature Barbarians could benefit from is
the crusader's pool and furious strike abilities.

Psyren

2013-08-28, 01:24 PM

"That's the way it's always been done" is a terrible reason to do something.

But there is in fact a better reason - the one I posted, which is again, to make one class be trained and the other instinctive. That is a useful niche and a reason to have them be separate classes. And this is likely what WotC was going for, even if they may not have realized it consciously or done all that well in executing on it. The fact that the two classes are in different "starting age" categories shows that they were at least aware of the dichotomy on a subconscious level.

Segev

2013-08-28, 01:25 PM

Hm. Conquering Nature.

The first thing that comes to mind is giving them Endure Elements, either as a (Su) or an (Ex) ability, always on. Minor perk under most circumstances, but still very flavorful and useful circumstantially.

Give them ability to ignore penalties to spot and listen due to weather conditions. They are used to peering through rain and hail and fog. Maybe, at higher levels, the ability to ignore Concealment out to some radius, possibly increasing with their level.

Give them a +4 bonus to Intimidation against Animals and Magical Beasts, and let them add Str to all Intimidation checks (as well as Charisma). Let them ignore size penalties to intimidation checks against larger creatures. A class feature that lets them use Handle Animal's "push" on an intimidated animal or magical beast. Let them use Handle Animal on magical beasts without the increased DC. Let them use it on dragons and aberrations WITH the magical beast increase to DCs.

Let them, at higher level, not just predict weather with a Survival check, but cast Control Weather as a spell-like ability once a week or day or so. Possibly use the Survival Check to set the duration, 2 hours + 1 hour per 5 by which the check exceeds 15 or something. Fluff it as still predicting it, but being so good at it and so in tune with their dominion that they know when it will be to their advantage. Or make it blatantly magic; he's demanding rain from the sky gods, and they answer whether out of respect...or fear.

Give them Endurance as a bonus feat. Kind-of lame, but fitting, and if it's a bonus, it can't hurt. Improve on it later with resistance to dessication damage and dehydration.

Bonus on fortitude saves vs. poisons and anything else you can think of as "enduring nature's dangers." Possibly eventually immunity to poison.

ryu

2013-08-28, 01:27 PM

What should a barbarian be able to do? Kill things. Kill lots of things quickly, efficiently, and very hard to shut down. It flies? The barb jumps several movement increments through the air straight up if necessary with a damage increase to make up for not full attacking. It swims? Dive into water and connect axe with face. Also imposes a penalty on enemy movement and if using swim checks they're harder to make. It burrows? At high level perform a ridiculous feat of strength to rip out a chunk of earth and shake the enemy out cause a fortitude save against being dazed which would prevent just burrowing again on their turn. Also if you have additional iterative attacks left after killing something free move action to lunge at someone within range and continue. Every successful kill made in a round also increases the attack bonus and gives a flat increase in damage per hit for the rest of the encounter.

Basically we want to encourage fury and breaking things and just generally being something you don't want to be stuck in a room with.

Nightraiderx

2013-08-28, 01:31 PM

ryu

2013-08-28, 01:39 PM

I like the earth one but I kinda think just going into the water and repeatedly hammering someone to death with weapon of choice while giving them the ultimate bear hug is just more personal.

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 01:43 PM

But there is in fact a better reason - the one I posted, which is again, to make one class be trained and the other instinctive. That is a useful niche and a reason to have them be separate classes. And this is likely what WotC was going for, even if they may not have realized it consciously or done all that well in executing on it. The fact that the two classes are in different "starting age" categories shows that they were at least aware of the dichotomy on a subconscious level.

Sure, but then you have a reason other than "because it's been that way."

I honestly don't think, though, that the barbarian is disparate enough from the fighter to warrant its own class: almost all of its class features can basically be boiled down to bonus feats (BoXM has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as fighter bonus feats, for instance; Trap Sense is ignorable and could probably be boiled down to a single feat that scaled with character level; DR/- is already a feat; Rage and rage variants could easily be a feat chain). Those that can't (increased HD, no heavy armor or tower shields, illiteracy, larger skill list and more skills) are all first-level whole-class effects anyway and can be packaged into an ACF for the fighter.

That's the trap: when you make a new class, you need to make sure of three things: What does this class do? What does this class do better? and Why do we need a class and not an ACF?

We know what this class does: it fights wildly and at the expense of self-danger.

We know what this class does better: it has a better skill list, more skills, more HP than its Fighter counterpart. These are things that can be an ACF, though.

Why do we need a class and not an ACF? Well, there's the rub. Do we really need Barbarian as a class? In my opinion, no: it'd be much better put together as an ACF.

According to the class feature equivalencies sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuqvG3gSGuF7cG03WmpKTEttSTVla0tDdGhaRmtCT 2c#gid=0) (which is based off of existing ACFs), Rage is about equivalent with Smite Evil (not necessarily true, but bear with me), which is about equivalent with Turn Undead, which is about equivalent with a domain granted power (see Elemental and Sun domains), which is worth...a bonus feat. It can be extrapolated, then, that expanded uses of rage (Mighty Rage, Tireless Rage, etc) are worth equivalently leveled bonus feats, which is a thing that the Fighter is basically swimming in.

The fact that aside from HD, skills, and the completely forgettable Trap Sense, the existing barbarian can be entirely modeled within the fighter class with bonus feats should say something: that the class as it stands doesn't need to be a class.

Now, if you're going to retool the barbarian so that it has things that don't really boil down to "bonus feat", sure, go right ahead. But if it's not going to look like the barbarian we are all familiar with, why bother calling it a barbarian then? Why bother keeping the baggage that goes with it ("omg u removed raeg now it sux", "berberienz r illiterate moron", "reel barbies have DR", etc., etc.) when you can make something new that is actually built for the concept you have in mind rather than shoehorning an existing thing into that mold?

Segev

2013-08-28, 01:49 PM

DR27

2013-08-28, 01:54 PM

Sure, but then you have a reason other than "because it's been that way."

I honestly don't think, though, that the barbarian is disparate enough from the fighter to warrant its own class: almost all of its class features can basically be boiled down to bonus feats (BoXM has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as fighter bonus feats, for instance; Trap Sense is ignorable and could probably be boiled down to a single feat that scaled with character level; DR/- is already a feat; Rage and rage variants could easily be a feat chain). Those that can't (increased HD, no heavy armor or tower shields, illiteracy, larger skill list and more skills) are all first-level whole-class effects anyway and can be packaged into an ACF for the fighter.

That's the trap: when you make a new class, you need to make sure of three things: What does this class do? What does this class do better? and Why do we need a class and not an ACF?

We know what this class does: it fights wildly and at the expense of self-danger.

We know what this class does better: it has a better skill list, more skills, more HP than its Fighter counterpart. These are things that can be an ACF, though.

Why do we need a class and not an ACF? Well, there's the rub. Do we really need Barbarian as a class? In my opinion, no: it'd be much better put together as an ACF.This, nearly 100% - but I'd prefer Rage as a feat chain than as a ACF. ACFs kind of suck for things like this. Don't see a need to limit hulking out to one class.

But from what I can gather, the OP needs to ask themselves a question: do I need the barbarian class because the mechanics can't be replicated otherwise or do I need the barbarian class because the fluff can't be replicated otherwise? I know and you know that it's really the fluff that you are going for. There's a thing for fluff already - character backstories. The rage/berserk/frenzy mechanic doesn't have any good reason to be tied to a class besides a desire to tie "savage" fluff to a mechanic that could just as easily be "el hulk."

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 01:54 PM

Eh. At what point is "writing ACFs" so extensive a re-write of a class that you may as well just make it a new class?

I mean, you're talking about ACFing half the chassis as well as putting a load of special abilities on for which you trade out feats.

No, I'm not. I'm talking about making the ACF into HD: d12; add Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot to class skills; Increase skills per level to 4+Int; Illiteracy; Remove heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.

Rage? Feats. DR? Scaling feat. Trap Sense? Scaling feat. Uncanny Dodge? Two feats.

Which has the added advantageous side effect of making those features available to people who aren't barbarian or rogue. What if I want to play a trapper ranger? Now I can take Trap Sense as a feat. What if I want to play a particularly hard to hit fighter? Uncanny Dodge feats. Wizard have an accident with a stoneskin spell and is now partially rock? DR feat.

DR27

2013-08-28, 01:57 PM

No, I'm not. I'm talking about making the ACF into HD: d12; add Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot to class skills; Increase skills per level to 4+Int; Illiteracy; Remove heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.

Rage? Feats. DR? Scaling feat. Trap Sense? Scaling feat. Uncanny Dodge? Two feats.

Which has the added advantageous side effect of making those features available to people who aren't barbarian or rogue. What if I want to play a trapper ranger? Now I can take Trap Sense as a feat. What if I want to play a particularly hard to hit fighter? Uncanny Dodge feats. Wizard have an accident with a stoneskin spell and is now partially rock? DR feat.Well, fighter should have been d12 anyways, and has always needed more skills.

Firechanter

2013-08-28, 01:59 PM

You might want to look at the Barbarian class in the Conan RPG, which is completely different from the 3.5 version.

Some differences:
- no "Rage" as class feature (except a minor feature that only triggers under certain circumstances); however somethibng like Rage is a selectable feat.
- Barbarians are super versatile. They pick up proficiency with _all_ weapons, including all Exotic weapons (level 7). At higher levels, they double (14) and eventually triple (20) the Threat ranges on all weapons.
- in return, they cannot specialize at all. They cannot have anything like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization or whatever else only works with a small selection of weapons.
- they become completely immune to AoOs from Movement (level 10)
- and eventually they can Move and Full Attack on the same turn. (15)

iirc they are also quite resilient against magic, get DR and decent skills.

Anyway, not saying that you should copy this class 1:1, just to show that you can make a Barbarian completely different from the "Thog Smash!" approach of 3.5.

Greenish

2013-08-28, 02:00 PM

No, I'm not. I'm talking about making the ACF into HD: d12; add Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot to class skills; Increase skills per level to 4+Int; Illiteracy; Remove heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.Wouldn't that be more like a class variant, not ACF? I mean, ACFs rarely (I can't think of any) fiddle with skill points or class skills or hit dice, and usually just replace a single feature with another.

JusticeZero

2013-08-28, 02:02 PM

Feats of strength, endurance, and DPS, plus wilderness skills and sense supernatural. The Barbarian is pretty much the embodiment of the old archetype (now obsoleted in social sciences and culture) of the "Noble Savage". They are unsullied by modern technology and tactics created as crutches and instead succeed with raw primitive talent, intuition, and passion. They are associated with herculean feats of physicality, combined with wisdom and awareness of the natural and supernatural world. They should probably not be wearing fancy armor, and stick to the Druid list if anything. They should not need armor.

This distinguishes them from the Fighter, who is a general, a tactician, a heavily armored leader who wins by skill, equipment, and the power of their troops.

Psyren

2013-08-28, 02:02 PM

Sure, but then you have a reason other than "because it's been that way."

I was more getting at "there's a reason it's been that way." A reason that WotC may not have been consciously aware of, but that informed their decision to create the class on a subconscious level from the beginning nonetheless.

I honestly don't think, though, that the barbarian is disparate enough from the fighter to warrant its own class: almost all of its class features can basically be boiled down to bonus feats (BoXM has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as fighter bonus feats, for instance; Trap Sense is ignorable and could probably be boiled down to a single feat that scaled with character level; DR/- is already a feat; Rage and rage variants could easily be a feat chain). Those that can't (increased HD, no heavy armor or tower shields, illiteracy, larger skill list and more skills) are all first-level whole-class effects anyway and can be packaged into an ACF for the fighter.

But you can extend that line of thinking to almost anything if you go far enough. Sorcerer could be a Wizard archetype; just package the spontaneous casting and lack of spellbook into an ACF, and then everything else can be gotten through feats. Druid and Paladin could be Cleric archetypes; Monk, Ranger and Rogue could be fighter Archetypes. Taken far enough, you don't need classes at all - just collections of advancement tracks, and then we're in Legend.

I get what you're saying, but I do see the value of a class system too, even if some of the classes are very closely related.

lsfreak

2013-08-28, 02:09 PM

I do think there might be enough to barbarian to make an entire class, but it would need a lot of rebuilding, and expanding beyond "berserker in class form."

Also, what are these rages?
Whirling Frenzy in the SRD (+4 Str, +2 AC, +2 Reflex saves, -2 on all attacks to gain a bonus attack at full BAB)
Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (+4Str/Dex, -2 on all ranged attacks beyond 30 feet)
Berserk Rage from PHB 2(rage activated every time you drop below [5+level]hp)
Plus a few other substituation levels that change or replace rage, the big one being Mountain Rage (Races of Stone) that makes a a goliath Large-sized.

Ah, good point. Must a barbarian be a berserker, or are there more to him. Are there other ways to interpret the barbarian?
Barbarians are warrior-monks who drop into deep states of meditation and have extreme control over their own body.
Barbarians are blessed by fey, dragons, or other entities as the embodiment of their vengeance. They act to uphold he being's interests through martial might. While a paladin is dedicated to a cause, and a cleric a god, a barbarian is dedicated to a being.

Greenish

2013-08-28, 02:10 PM

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 02:16 PM

But you can extend that line of thinking to almost anything if you go far enough. Sorcerer could be a Wizard archetype; just package the spontaneous casting and lack of spellbook into an ACF, and then everything else can be gotten through feats. Druid and Paladin could be Cleric archetypes; Monk, Ranger and Rogue could be fighter Archetypes. Taken far enough, you don't need classes at all - just collections of advancement tracks, and then we're in Legend.

I get what you're saying, but I do see the value of a class system too, even if some of the classes are very closely related.

Right. That's what the questions I outlined before are for. Yes, you could probably turn the bard into a wizard ACF, but it's different enough that it doesn't need to be. The barbarian, though, is not different enough: it does the same things in the same ways: it just has its feats pre-selected. Same thing with the CW samurai.

Psyren

2013-08-28, 02:19 PM

I agree with CW Samurai being a Fighter archetype, but not Barbarian. I think Barbarians can occupy a unique enough niche to be a distinct class.

We can agree to disagree, but ultimately the OP has chosen to proceed on that assumption regardless.

Telonius

2013-08-28, 02:24 PM

My idea of what a Barbarian is (or ought to be):

Iconic ability is rage. He should be able to rage, hulk out, berserk, whatever you want to call it, and demolish the enemy.

He's wilderness-based. He can get along in the wild alone, distrusts cities.

He might be easily confused, but he's not easily fooled. (This suggests high Wisdom or some kind of bonus to Sense Motive).

He doesn't use heavy armor, and prefers simple sorts of weapons (big axe, big sword, big club).

He's very physically fit, athletic, and able to endure much more pain and discomfort than an ordinary person.

He distrusts magic, and is able to shrug off the effects of some sorts of magic. (Whether that's achieved through Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Saves, or By-Crom Iron Heart Surge ... any or all might model it well).

In combat, his allies would say, "Just point him that way and let him go." He's not really about fancy weapon styles, specialized combat, maneuvers, tactical feats, or guile. He'd rather have an axe that works all the time than some fancy thing where you have to stand on your head and clap three times to get the bonus.

Outside of combat, he's an intimidating presence. He knows all kinds of things about natural lore, weather patterns, maybe even taking care of horses. He'd be a great person to send into a bar to gather information, assuming no bar fight breaks out. He can drink anyone under the table, and will win any eating contest. He's never going to be a lead negotiator, but he's excellent at figuring out if someone is lying to him or his friends.

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 02:35 PM

If I were to build a class out of this:

Iconic ability is rage. He should be able to rage, hulk out, berserk, whatever you want to call it, and demolish the enemy. Rage ability, including variant rages like Ferocity and Whirling Frenzy as options on activation.

He's wilderness-based. He can get along in the wild alone, distrusts cities. Survival bonus based on level, Track skill, Wild Empathy, ability to craft non-improvised weaponry quickly with Survival skill.

He might be easily confused, but he's not easily fooled. (This suggests high Wisdom or some kind of bonus to Sense Motive). Bonus on saves vs enchantments scaling with level, Sense Motive as class skill.

He doesn't use heavy armor, and prefers simple sorts of weapons (big axe, big sword, big club). Non-metal light and medium armors only (bone, leather, wood); Con to AC in light armor; bonus for using non-metal weapons (wooden club, bone spear, stone axe).

He's very physically fit, athletic, and able to endure much more pain and discomfort than an ordinary person.

He distrusts magic, and is able to shrug off the effects of some sorts of magic. (Whether that's achieved through Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Saves, or By-Crom Iron Heart Surge ... any or all might model it well). Bonus HP/HD (possibly above and beyond d12 HD); delayed damage pool like Crusader; bonus on saves vs. status effects (sickened, nauseated, stunned, dazed, dazzled).

In combat, his allies would say, "Just point him that way and let him go." He's not really about fancy weapon styles, specialized combat, maneuvers, tactical feats, or guile. He'd rather have an axe that works all the time than some fancy thing where you have to stand on your head and clap three times to get the bonus.Favored weapon bonuses (like weapon spec, but built into the class), mostly 'more hits" and "more damage" things. Whirling Frenzy as rage option.

Outside of combat, he's an intimidating presence. He knows all kinds of things about natural lore, weather patterns, maybe even taking care of horses. He'd be a great person to send into a bar to gather information, assuming no bar fight breaks out. He can drink anyone under the table, and will win any eating contest. He's never going to be a lead negotiator, but he's excellent at figuring out if someone is lying to him or his friends.Knowledge: Geography, Survival, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Hide/Move Silently, poison resistance (later, immunity).

Segev

2013-08-28, 02:38 PM

I will actually chime in against "distrusts magic" as a thing. I know Conan did, but he was in a low-magic setting, and magic was almost exclusively deeply evil by its nature.

In a medium-to-high fantasy setting, such as most D&D ones, a Barbarian would more sensibly not "get" magic and easily confuse anything he doesn't understand with it, but he should be comfortable with superstitions and with rituals and even with having magic done on his behalf. It's too common, and practitioners too easily good as often as evil or neutral, for the "distrust" element to make a whole lot of sense.

Flickerdart

2013-08-28, 02:41 PM

Actually, Crusader in general would be a pretty good fit, if you strip away the fluff (and maybe trade Devoted Spirit for Tiger Claw). Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike are very barbarian, Indomitable Soul enables barbarian to dump Wisdom in favour of Charisma for more better intimidating, and still laugh at puny casters trying to mind control them, Zealous Surge lets you shrug off even more punishment, Smite is just an extra-savage attack, and Diehard and Mettle are both very barbarian things to have.

Crusader is my barbarian fix. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis

2013-08-28, 02:51 PM

If I were to build a class out of this:

Rage ability, including variant rages like Ferocity and Whirling Frenzy as options on activation.

Survival bonus based on level, Track skill, Wild Empathy, ability to craft non-improvised weaponry quickly with Survival skill.

Bonus on saves vs enchantments scaling with level, Sense Motive as class skill.

Non-metal light and medium armors only (bone, leather, wood); Con to AC in light armor; bonus for using non-metal weapons (wooden club, bone spear, stone axe).

Bonus HP/HD (possibly above and beyond d12 HD); delayed damage pool like Crusader; bonus on saves vs. status effects (sickened, nauseated, stunned, dazed, dazzled).

Favored weapon bonuses (like weapon spec, but built into the class), mostly 'more hits" and "more damage" things. Whirling Frenzy as rage option.

Knowledge: Geography, Survival, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Hide/Move Silently, poison resistance (later, immunity).

Custom
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+1|+1|Survivor, Rage (1/Day)

2nd|+2|+3|+1|+1|Wild Empathy, Track

3rd|+3|+3|+2|+2|Favored Weapon +2, Enforced Mind +1

4th|+4|+4|+2|+2|Rage (2/Day)

5th|+5|+4|+3|+3|Indomitable +1, Delay Damage (5)

6th|+6/+1|+5|+3|+3|Favored Weapon +4, Poison Resistance, Enforced Mind +2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+3|+3|Rage (3/Day)

8th|+8/+3|+6|+4|+4|Indomitable +2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+4|+4|Favored Weapon +6, Enforced Mind +3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+5|+5|Delay Damage (10), Rage (4/Day)

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+5|+5|Indomitable +3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+6|+6|Favored Weapon +8, Enforced Mind +4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+6|+6|Rage (5/Day)

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+6|+6|Poison Immunity, Indomitable +4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+7|+7|Favored Weapon +10, Delay Damage (15), Enforced Mind +5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+7|+7|Rage (6/Day)

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+8|+8|Indomitable +5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+8|+8|Favored Weapon +12, Enforced Mind +6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+8|+8|Rage (7/Day)

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+9|+9|Indomitable +6, Delay Damage (20)

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, martial weapons, light/medium armor

Survivor: +1 HP/barbarian level, +1/3 barbarian level (round down, min +1) to Survival checks, can craft stone, wood, bone, leather equipment with Survival skill, CON to AC in light, non-metal armor

Rage: As existing barbarian, except also can choose Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy when activating.

Wild Empathy: as ranger

Track: as feat

Favored Weapon: choose a weapon, gain that value to attack/damage while wielding it: only self-crafted items

Enforced Mind: bonus on saves vs enchantment effects

Delay Damage: as Crusader

Indomitable: bonus on saves vs stun, daze, dazzle, blind, deaf, sicken, nauseate, fear

Poison Resist: +3 vs poison

Poison Immunity: immune to poisons

This is a quick and dirty mockup, but it's something.

Tvtyrant

2013-08-28, 02:53 PM

I think the Barbarian/berserker paradigm deserves more awesome stuff than just strength increases. Growing large, turning into a bear, gaining the ability to cast magic powered by rage, even the ability to shatter spells with a shout are all things it should be able to do (maybe not all at once.) The more Gurren Lagann/G Gundam the Barbarian becomes the happier I am,

Equilibria

2013-08-28, 02:53 PM

Psyren: Barbarian = instinctive martial
Fighter = trained martial

This is a similar dichotomy to the Sorcerer vs. Wizard. What would this mean in practice? Well, I would say that the "Fighter" (or perhaps Soldier?) should be the more technique-based warrior. The Barbarian meanwhile would have a lot less finesse but capable of bringing more force/resilience to bear.

For instance, if they both had to take down an enemy spellcaster - the Fighter would be the one that knows special techniques/maneuvers to disrupt, avoid, and otherwise overcome the spells until he gets close enough for the killing blow. The Barbarian meanwhile would get hit with the spells, but be more likely to power through them or shrug them off.

3.5 and PF unfortunately don't do enough to enforce this division; Fighters get more feats, but the feats themselves are weak, and the few that do provide technique-based fighting are just as easy for Barbarians to access. So what you end up having in practice is that Barbarians are superior in almost every way.

Yes Psyren yes!!!
That is exactly what i was thinking. The barbarian doesn´t avoid damage he laugh at the pain and then proceeds to pummel little magic man into the ground.

Actually one of my goals with the overhaul is that each class should have something Unique that no other class can do. Don´t got the details Down but it´s nice to have a goal.

Fax Celestis: "That's the way it's always been done" is a terrible reason to do something.

Absolutely. But it´s an equally terrible reason to abandon something you see potential in before trying to fix it.
And i know that lots of people have tried, but i want to have a go as well :smallwink:

Fax Celestis: Sure, but then you have a reason other than "because it's been that way."

I honestly don't think, though, that the barbarian is disparate enough from the fighter to warrant its own class: almost all of its class features can basically be boiled down to bonus feats (BoXM has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as fighter bonus feats, for instance; Trap Sense is ignorable and could probably be boiled down to a single feat that scaled with character level; DR/- is already a feat; Rage and rage variants could easily be a feat chain). Those that can't (increased HD, no heavy armor or tower shields, illiteracy, larger skill list and more skills) are all first-level whole-class effects anyway and can be packaged into an ACF for the fighter.

That's the trap: when you make a new class, you need to make sure of three things: What does this class do? What does this class do better? and Why do we need a class and not an ACF?

We know what this class does: it fights wildly and at the expense of self-danger.

We know what this class does better: it has a better skill list, more skills, more HP than its Fighter counterpart. These are things that can be an ACF, though.

Why do we need a class and not an ACF? Well, there's the rub. Do we really need Barbarian as a class? In my opinion, no: it'd be much better put together as an ACF.

According to the class feature equivalencies sheet (which is based off of existing ACFs), Rage is about equivalent with Smite Evil (not necessarily true, but bear with me), which is about equivalent with Turn Undead, which is about equivalent with a domain granted power (see Elemental and Sun domains), which is worth...a bonus feat. It can be extrapolated, then, that expanded uses of rage (Mighty Rage, Tireless Rage, etc) are worth equivalently leveled bonus feats, which is a thing that the Fighter is basically swimming in.

The fact that aside from HD, skills, and the completely forgettable Trap Sense, the existing barbarian can be entirely modeled within the fighter class with bonus feats should say something: that the class as it stands doesn't need to be a class.

Now, if you're going to retool the barbarian so that it has things that don't really boil down to "bonus feat", sure, go right ahead. But if it's not going to look like the barbarian we are all familiar with, why bother calling it a barbarian then? Why bother keeping the baggage that goes with it ("omg u removed raeg now it sux", "berberienz r illiterate moron", "reel barbies have DR", etc., etc.) when you can make something new that is actually built for the concept you have in mind rather than shoehorning an existing thing into that mold?

I see your point. The fact remains that i want to try to make the barbarian fun to play.

Lets give the barbarian class features that aren´t feats and that warrants its existence... Got any ideas?

If people want the old barbarian let´s give them the option to play that. But what if we could give them more options than just those... Then we would cater to all tastes.

Fax Celestis: No, I'm not. I'm talking about making the ACF into HD: d12; add Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot to class skills; Increase skills per level to 4+Int; Illiteracy; Remove heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies.

Rage? Feats. DR? Scaling feat. Trap Sense? Scaling feat. Uncanny Dodge? Two feats.

Which has the added advantageous side effect of making those features available to people who aren't barbarian or rogue. What if I want to play a trapper ranger? Now I can take Trap Sense as a feat. What if I want to play a particularly hard to hit fighter? Uncanny Dodge feats. Wizard have an accident with a stoneskin spell and is now partially rock? DR feat.

I can´t help but feel that this could be done with all classes. Simply make a feat for every class feature, spell etc. and then you can mix and match as you want.
This is not my vision and in fact i would very much like to make it harder for classes to gain each others niche powers. That way (i think) each class would have a unique feel to it.

But each to his own :smallsmile:

Nightraiderx: Found it, it's called Wildheart
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192596

Also another class feature Barbarians could benefit from is
the crusader's pool and furious strike abilities.

Thanks, i´ll definently look that over.

That is actually a great idea, thanks again. If you get more ideas please don´t hesitate.

Nightraiderx: I like the ideas, but what if the Barbarian were to "Cleave into the earth" or water as he could ignore swimming and remove earth with a mighty swing as reflavored borrowing/swimming abilities?

Also great ideas.

Segev: Hm. Conquering Nature.

The first thing that comes to mind is giving them Endure Elements, either as a (Su) or an (Ex) ability, always on. Minor perk under most circumstances, but still very flavorful and useful circumstantially.

Give them ability to ignore penalties to spot and listen due to weather conditions. They are used to peering through rain and hail and fog. Maybe, at higher levels, the ability to ignore Concealment out to some radius, possibly increasing with their level.

Give them a +4 bonus to Intimidation against Animals and Magical Beasts, and let them add Str to all Intimidation checks (as well as Charisma). Let them ignore size penalties to intimidation checks against larger creatures. A class feature that lets them use Handle Animal's "push" on an intimidated animal or magical beast. Let them use Handle Animal on magical beasts without the increased DC. Let them use it on dragons and aberrations WITH the magical beast increase to DCs.

Let them, at higher level, not just predict weather with a Survival check, but cast Control Weather as a spell-like ability once a week or day or so. Possibly use the Survival Check to set the duration, 2 hours + 1 hour per 5 by which the check exceeds 15 or something. Fluff it as still predicting it, but being so good at it and so in tune with their dominion that they know when it will be to their advantage. Or make it blatantly magic; he's demanding rain from the sky gods, and they answer whether out of respect...or fear.

Give them Endurance as a bonus feat. Kind-of lame, but fitting, and if it's a bonus, it can't hurt. Improve on it later with resistance to dessication damage and dehydration.

Bonus on fortitude saves vs. poisons and anything else you can think of as "enduring nature's dangers." Possibly eventually immunity to poison.

Those are all awesome ideas. I particularly like the Whole, "detrimental weather conditions mean squat to me".
Also, the whole demand favors from the gods... I can see that ending badly (the priest-king from Krynn anyone).

Ryu: What should a barbarian be able to do? Kill things. Kill lots of things quickly, efficiently, and very hard to shut down. It flies? The barb jumps several movement increments through the air straight up if necessary with a damage increase to make up for not full attacking. It swims? Dive into water and connect axe with face. Also imposes a penalty on enemy movement and if using swim checks they're harder to make. It burrows? At high level perform a ridiculous feat of strength to rip out a chunk of earth and shake the enemy out cause a fortitude save against being dazed which would prevent just burrowing again on their turn. Also if you have additional iterative attacks left after killing something free move action to lunge at someone within range and continue. Every successful kill made in a round also increases the attack bonus and gives a flat increase in damage per hit for the rest of the encounter.

Basically we want to encourage fury and breaking things and just generally being something you don't want to be stuck in a room with.

Those are all great ideas. i´ll definently consider those.

Dr27: But from what I can gather, the OP needs to ask themselves a question: do I need the barbarian class because the mechanics can't be replicated otherwise or do I need the barbarian class because the fluff can't be replicated otherwise? I know and you know that it's really the fluff that you are going for. There's a thing for fluff already - character backstories. The rage/berserk/frenzy mechanic doesn't have any good reason to be tied to a class besides a desire to tie "savage" fluff to a mechanic that could just as easily be "el hulk."

Absolutely it´s the fluff. But it is also the fact that if you take your point to its logical conclusion we could do that with all classes and eliminate the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer etc.
Or at least that´s my point of view.

I´m shutting Down for the night now, but will answer more posts in the morning.

Thanks for all the help guys. I appreciate it.

Greenish

2013-08-28, 03:09 PM

Non-metal light and medium armors only (bone, leather, wood); Con to AC in light armor; bonus for using non-metal weapons (wooden club, bone spear, stone axe).I'm not sure it's necessary for a barbarian to favour non-metal stuff. I mean, even societies that didn't know how to work metal were pretty keen on acquiring metal tools. Besides, I see barbarians as quite pragmatic (just to go with the survival theme), willing to use the stuff they get (and in most D&D settings, especially for adventurers, that's steel/mithral/adamantine).

Bonus HP/HD (possibly above and beyond d12 HD); delayed damage pool like Crusader; bonus on saves vs. status effects (sickened, nauseated, stunned, dazed, dazzled).Save bonuses are all well and good, but the ability to delay the status effects would be cool.

DR27

2013-08-28, 03:13 PM

Absolutely it´s the fluff. But it is also the fact that if you take your point to its logical conclusion we could do that with all classes and eliminate the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer etc.
Or at least that´s my point of view.Yes and No with regards to what you find to be the "logical conclusion." Those classes exist to mechanically limit casters to a single "theme" of casting. Without that, the versatility of casters allows them to be T1. You said in your OP that Tier 3 was a goal, obvious choices to limit T1 casters is either to force them to choose a theme, or to separate those themes into classes. The latter just happens to be easier to handle since they have different spell lists anyways. There is an actual mechanical reason for separate classes.

For barbarians, all of their mechanics should be modular and available to other fighting types, and getting their own class doesn't have much mechanical support. The parallels that Fax drew between the Fighter and CW Samurai and the Fighter and Barbarian are pretty apt.

Equilibria

2013-08-29, 03:38 AM

DR27: Well, fighter should have been d12 anyways, and has always needed more skills.

Here we must agree to disagree. While the fighter should be durable, i think that the barbarian should be even more so. The difference from D10 - D12 isn´t much but it´s a start.
On the skill point topic though we are in complete agreement.

But enough about the fighter...

DR27: Yes and No with regards to what you find to be the "logical conclusion." Those classes exist to mechanically limit casters to a single "theme" of casting. Without that, the versatility of casters allows them to be T1. You said in your OP that Tier 3 was a goal, obvious choices to limit T1 casters is either to force them to choose a theme, or to separate those themes into classes. The latter just happens to be easier to handle since they have different spell lists anyways. There is an actual mechanical reason for separate classes.

For barbarians, all of their mechanics should be modular and available to other fighting types, and getting their own class doesn't have much mechanical support. The parallels that Fax drew between the Fighter and CW Samurai and the Fighter and Barbarian are pretty apt.

I see your point, but the principle still stands. Instead of cutting the barbarian class out all together, i´d try to make it a distinct class that can contribute something Unique to a party (lofty goals maybe but there you go :smallsmile:).

We must agree to disagree. I most emphatically do not think that the barbarians class features should be available to other classes... But if that is your take, no worries.

Yes the parralel is apt, if you go by the pretext that nothing will change with the barbarian, or fighter, or the other classes.
But since this is a thread about making the barbarian something that it is currently not (and that i´m dead set on making it a class) it´s not really relevant.
What is relevant is if you have any suggestions on class features, that could turn the barbarian into a class that is valid as such.

Firechanter: You might want to look at the Barbarian class in the Conan RPG, which is completely different from the 3.5 version.

Some differences:
- no "Rage" as class feature (except a minor feature that only triggers under certain circumstances); however somethibng like Rage is a selectable feat.
- Barbarians are super versatile. They pick up proficiency with _all_ weapons, including all Exotic weapons (level 7). At higher levels, they double (14) and eventually triple (20) the Threat ranges on all weapons.
- in return, they cannot specialize at all. They cannot have anything like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization or whatever else only works with a small selection of weapons.
- they become completely immune to AoOs from Movement (level 10)
- and eventually they can Move and Full Attack on the same turn. (15)

iirc they are also quite resilient against magic, get DR and decent skills.

Anyway, not saying that you should copy this class 1:1, just to show that you can make a Barbarian completely different from the "Thog Smash!" approach of 3.5.

Thank you Firechanter. I´ll definently look that over. New takes on an old class is whats this thread is all about.

Greenish: Wouldn't that be more like a class variant, not ACF? I mean, ACFs rarely (I can't think of any) fiddle with skill points or class skills or hit dice, and usually just replace a single feature with another.

Agreed, it is a new way to think ACF´s but new ways of thinking is why i began this thread.
But would that be enough to make you want to play a barbarian? Shouldn´t it have more (and really cool) class features to separate the base fighter from the ACF barbarian? What should those class features be?

Greenish: Legend does still have classes (and amusingly enough kept barbarian and did away with fighter).

That is funny.
So, what can a barbarian do in Legend?

Greenish: I'm not sure it's necessary for a barbarian to favour non-metal stuff. I mean, even societies that didn't know how to work metal were pretty keen on acquiring metal tools. Besides, I see barbarians as quite pragmatic (just to go with the survival theme), willing to use the stuff they get (and in most D&D settings, especially for adventurers, that's steel/mithral/adamantine).

A good point. Just goes to show why you should always turn to a group of piers when undertaking any fair sized project... I was set on the notion that barbarians can´t wear various kinds of armor. But when you think about it, it doesn´t make much sense.

Greenish: Save bonuses are all well and good, but the ability to delay the status effects would be cool.

That would be cool. Will almost certainly use that.

JusiticeZero: Feats of strength, endurance, and DPS, plus wilderness skills and sense supernatural. The Barbarian is pretty much the embodiment of the old archetype (now obsoleted in social sciences and culture) of the "Noble Savage". They are unsullied by modern technology and tactics created as crutches and instead succeed with raw primitive talent, intuition, and passion. They are associated with herculean feats of physicality, combined with wisdom and awareness of the natural and supernatural world. They should probably not be wearing fancy armor, and stick to the Druid list if anything. They should not need armor.

This distinguishes them from the Fighter, who is a general, a tactician, a heavily armored leader who wins by skill, equipment, and the power of their troops.

I agree. Can you elaborate a little?
To create a class that can do these things the class features should be...???

I´m not asking you to do my Work for me :smalltongue:, i´m just really interested if you have any ideas on how to make the barbarian distinct from say the Fighter.

Psyren:

Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post

I honestly don't think, though, that the barbarian is disparate enough from the fighter to warrant its own class: almost all of its class features can basically be boiled down to bonus feats (BoXM has Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as fighter bonus feats, for instance; Trap Sense is ignorable and could probably be boiled down to a single feat that scaled with character level; DR/- is already a feat; Rage and rage variants could easily be a feat chain). Those that can't (increased HD, no heavy armor or tower shields, illiteracy, larger skill list and more skills) are all first-level whole-class effects anyway and can be packaged into an ACF for the fighter.

But you can extend that line of thinking to almost anything if you go far enough. Sorcerer could be a Wizard archetype; just package the spontaneous casting and lack of spellbook into an ACF, and then everything else can be gotten through feats. Druid and Paladin could be Cleric archetypes; Monk, Ranger and Rogue could be fighter Archetypes. Taken far enough, you don't need classes at all - just collections of advancement tracks, and then we're in Legend.

I get what you're saying, but I do see the value of a class system too, even if some of the classes are very closely related.

I to want to keep the classes (not saying that is your point Fax Celestis, just stating my intent).
My idea is to have several paths/class feature trees/archetypes for every class, making it possible for someone to play a barbarian that is distinctly different from another barbarian... even on low levels. That is why i need your input on what a barbarian should be able to do. So that i can pack everything (or most of it) into the class and make it fun to play for a wider audience.

Psyren: I agree with CW Samurai being a Fighter archetype, but not Barbarian. I think Barbarians can occupy a unique enough niche to be a distinct class.

We can agree to disagree, but ultimately the OP has chosen to proceed on that assumption regardless.

At some point i will try to make the samurai a distinct class with its own niche (i have no idea how, but that is the topic of another thread).

Thank you Psyren i have indeed.

Isfreak: I do think there might be enough to barbarian to make an entire class, but it would need a lot of rebuilding, and expanding beyond "berserker in class form."

Absolutely, and thats why we´re here... Got any ideas?

Isfreak: Whirling Frenzy in the SRD (+4 Str, +2 AC, +2 Reflex saves, -2 on all attacks to gain a bonus attack at full BAB)
Ferocity from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (+4Str/Dex, -2 on all ranged attacks beyond 30 feet)
Berserk Rage from PHB 2(rage activated every time you drop below [5+level]hp)
Plus a few other substituation levels that change or replace rage, the big one being Mountain Rage (Races of Stone) that makes a a goliath Large-sized.

Ah, those.

Isfreak: Barbarians are warrior-monks who drop into deep states of meditation and have extreme control over their own body.
Barbarians are blessed by fey, dragons, or other entities as the embodiment of their vengeance. They act to uphold he being's interests through martial might. While a paladin is dedicated to a cause, and a cleric a god, a barbarian is dedicated to a being.

Those are all very good suggestions and i´ll definently consider those.
Do you have any thoughts on what kind of class features they should have (in and out of combat) to depict those interpretations?

Fax Celestis: Right. That's what the questions I outlined before are for. Yes, you could probably turn the bard into a wizard ACF, but it's different enough that it doesn't need to be. The barbarian, though, is not different enough: it does the same things in the same ways: it just has its feats pre-selected. Same thing with the CW samurai.

As Things are currently i agree. The barbarian is a somewhat uninspired class (apologies to those that love the barbarian as is). But the reason for this thread is to find ways to improve upon the barbarian and make him different from the fighter and validating his existence.

Any other thoughts on how to do that?

Fax Celestis: If I were to build a class out of this:

Originally Posted by Telonius View Post

Iconic ability is rage. He should be able to rage, hulk out, berserk, whatever you want to call it, and demolish the enemy.

Rage ability, including variant rages like Ferocity and Whirling Frenzy as options on activation.

He's wilderness-based. He can get along in the wild alone, distrusts cities.

Survival bonus based on level, Track skill, Wild Empathy, ability to craft non-improvised weaponry quickly with Survival skill.

He might be easily confused, but he's not easily fooled. (This suggests high Wisdom or some kind of bonus to Sense Motive).

Bonus on saves vs enchantments scaling with level, Sense Motive as class skill.

He doesn't use heavy armor, and prefers simple sorts of weapons (big axe, big sword, big club).

Non-metal light and medium armors only (bone, leather, wood); Con to AC in light armor; bonus for using non-metal weapons (wooden club, bone spear, stone axe).

He's very physically fit, athletic, and able to endure much more pain and discomfort than an ordinary person.

He distrusts magic, and is able to shrug off the effects of some sorts of magic. (Whether that's achieved through Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Saves, or By-Crom Iron Heart Surge ... any or all might model it well).

Bonus HP/HD (possibly above and beyond d12 HD); delayed damage pool like Crusader; bonus on saves vs. status effects (sickened, nauseated, stunned, dazed, dazzled).

In combat, his allies would say, "Just point him that way and let him go." He's not really about fancy weapon styles, specialized combat, maneuvers, tactical feats, or guile. He'd rather have an axe that works all the time than some fancy thing where you have to stand on your head and clap three times to get the bonus.

Favored weapon bonuses (like weapon spec, but built into the class), mostly 'more hits" and "more damage" things. Whirling Frenzy as rage option.

Outside of combat, he's an intimidating presence. He knows all kinds of things about natural lore, weather patterns, maybe even taking care of horses. He'd be a great person to send into a bar to gather information, assuming no bar fight breaks out. He can drink anyone under the table, and will win any eating contest. He's never going to be a lead negotiator, but he's excellent at figuring out if someone is lying to him or his friends.

Knowledge: Geography, Survival, Sense Motive, Intimidate, Hide/Move Silently, poison resistance (later, immunity).

Those all sounds like great ideas, and it sure gives me something to Work with... Thanks.

Fax Celestis: Custom

Level

BAB

Fort

Ref

Will

Special

1st +1 +2 +1 +1 Survivor, Rage (1/Day)
2nd +2 +3 +1 +1 Wild Empathy, Track
3rd +3 +3 +2 +2 Favored Weapon +2, Enforced Mind +1
4th +4 +4 +2 +2 Rage (2/Day)
5th +5 +4 +3 +3 Indomitable +1, Delay Damage (5)
6th +6/+1 +5 +3 +3 Favored Weapon +4, Poison Resistance, Enforced Mind +2
7th +7/+2 +5 +3 +3 Rage (3/Day)
8th +8/+3 +6 +4 +4 Indomitable +2
9th +9/+4 +6 +4 +4 Favored Weapon +6, Enforced Mind +3
10th +10/+5 +7 +5 +5 Delay Damage (10), Rage (4/Day)
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +5 +5 Indomitable +3
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +6 +6 Favored Weapon +8, Enforced Mind +4
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +6 +6 Rage (5/Day)
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +6 +6 Poison Immunity, Indomitable +4
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +7 +7 Favored Weapon +10, Delay Damage (15), Enforced Mind +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +7 +7 Rage (6/Day)
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +8 +8 Indomitable +5
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +8 +8 Favored Weapon +12, Enforced Mind +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +8 +8 Rage (7/Day)
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +9 +9 Indomitable +6, Delay Damage (20)
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d12

Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, martial weapons, light/medium armor

Survivor: +1 HP/barbarian level, +1/3 barbarian level (round down, min +1) to Survival checks, can craft stone, wood, bone, leather equipment with Survival skill, CON to AC in light, non-metal armor

Rage: As existing barbarian, except also can choose Ferocity or Whirling Frenzy when activating.

Wild Empathy: as ranger

Track: as feat

Favored Weapon: choose a weapon, gain that value to attack/damage while wielding it: only self-crafted items

Enforced Mind: bonus on saves vs enchantment effects

Delay Damage: as Crusader

Indomitable: bonus on saves vs stun, daze, dazzle, blind, deaf, sicken, nauseate, fear

Poison Resist: +3 vs poison

Poison Immunity: immune to poisons

This is a quick and dirty mockup, but it's something.

This is great and a source of inspiration that i will use when i start working on my "fix".

Telonius: My idea of what a Barbarian is (or ought to be):

Iconic ability is rage. He should be able to rage, hulk out, berserk, whatever you want to call it, and demolish the enemy.

He's wilderness-based. He can get along in the wild alone, distrusts cities.

He might be easily confused, but he's not easily fooled. (This suggests high Wisdom or some kind of bonus to Sense Motive).

He doesn't use heavy armor, and prefers simple sorts of weapons (big axe, big sword, big club).

He's very physically fit, athletic, and able to endure much more pain and discomfort than an ordinary person.

He distrusts magic, and is able to shrug off the effects of some sorts of magic. (Whether that's achieved through Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Saves, or By-Crom Iron Heart Surge ... any or all might model it well).

In combat, his allies would say, "Just point him that way and let him go." He's not really about fancy weapon styles, specialized combat, maneuvers, tactical feats, or guile. He'd rather have an axe that works all the time than some fancy thing where you have to stand on your head and clap three times to get the bonus.

Outside of combat, he's an intimidating presence. He knows all kinds of things about natural lore, weather patterns, maybe even taking care of horses. He'd be a great person to send into a bar to gather information, assuming no bar fight breaks out. He can drink anyone under the table, and will win any eating contest. He's never going to be a lead negotiator, but he's excellent at figuring out if someone is lying to him or his friends.

About the rage and wilderness survival... Do you have any ideas on how we should accomplish this. Should it just continue to be bonuses on str. and con. or should he be able to do more (and if so what?).

About the confused/fooled part... Can you elaborate, i don´t understand what you mean.

About his physical abilities... How should him being in great physical shape translate to in game mechanics?

About the barbarians view on magic... i like the idea about him being able to ignore certain magic effects. gives him a certain powerhouse feel.
Not sure about the distrusting magic part though. It would probably nerf the barbarian if he could not use magic items.

On the final two parts i agree.

Segev: I will actually chime in against "distrusts magic" as a thing. I know Conan did, but he was in a low-magic setting, and magic was almost exclusively deeply evil by its nature.

In a medium-to-high fantasy setting, such as most D&D ones, a Barbarian would more sensibly not "get" magic and easily confuse anything he doesn't understand with it, but he should be comfortable with superstitions and with rituals and even with having magic done on his behalf. It's too common, and practitioners too easily good as often as evil or neutral, for the "distrust" element to make a whole lot of sense.

I heartily agree with you sir.

Flickerdart: Actually, Crusader in general would be a pretty good fit, if you strip away the fluff (and maybe trade Devoted Spirit for Tiger Claw). Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike are very barbarian, Indomitable Soul enables barbarian to dump Wisdom in favour of Charisma for more better intimidating, and still laugh at puny casters trying to mind control them, Zealous Surge lets you shrug off even more punishment, Smite is just an extra-savage attack, and Diehard and Mettle are both very barbarian things to have.

Crusader is my barbarian fix.

While i do like Tob i´m not one of those players that want it in every martial class. Instead i want to give the other classes something that makes them distinct and equal in power.

Having said that i see your point and will take a serious look at the crusader as an inspirational Tool.

Greenish

2013-08-29, 06:39 AM

So, what can a barbarian do in Legend?They can rage and hit things and take hits. There are players who enjoy the simple things in life game, and barbarians in many games are the simple, straightforward option.

In some more detail, barbarians get a track that grants decent-sized bonuses to attack and damage, some temp. HP, save bonuses, ability to count as Large, and stuff like that, for a limited number of rounds. It doesn't have daily uses, but it renders you fatigued afterwards, and you can't start another if you're fatigued. (There's an alternative dervish track for dex-focus, with increases speed and gives miss chance and bonus attack instead of the defensive stuff above.)

Its second track gets it stuff like cleave, whirlwind, and other stuff to share the pain to every enemy at hand.

The third track is a defensive one, with extra healing from external sources, initiative bonus, mettle, fast healing, always acting on surprise rounds, save rerolls, etc.

You get all three (Legend handles multiclassing by trading out one track for another). You can get the game here (http://www.ruleofcool.com/get-the-game/) if you want more detail.

PF Barbarian's Rage Powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers) also have some that you might like to poach. Also worth checking out is the War Frenzy (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5550).

Equilibria

2013-08-29, 06:49 AM

Thanks Greenish.

I have a lot of stuff to look through now.

Edit: Wow,i just had time to look through the war frenzy... that is cool.

To everyone else. I hope there are a few of you with some ideas left. Just keep ´em coming.

Nightraiderx

2013-08-29, 08:56 AM

Just thought of another thing, wouldn't Barbarians also get senses as they leveled up? like scent, and limited blindsense (they do get trap sense and uncanny dodge afterall)

Equilibria

2013-08-29, 09:08 AM

Yeah that makes sense.

they should definently have that option.

Telonius

2013-08-29, 09:30 AM

About the confused/fooled part... Can you elaborate, i don´t understand what you mean.

Example ... tax collector comes around with a complicated explanation of why the tax increase is necessary, that it's the townsfolk's duty to support the king's war against the goblins, that the future benefits are going to be flowing in for certain. He gives a mathematical demonstration as to how the tax will fall on a typical family, and that no one will be forced to go hungry - military service will be accepted in lieu of payment for the truly needy.

Barbarian response: "I honestly don't know what to make of those little ledgers. But for the rest of it, what you mean to say is that we're going to have half-portions from now until next harvest, and anyone who can't pay is going to be conscripted or go to prison."

Nightraiderx

2013-08-29, 09:44 AM

Another thing that could be interesting with the Rage, Whirling Frenzy, and Ferocity concepts is to add some other bonuses and benefits. I noticed in your chart Fax that you didn't give speed bonuses, what if Rage, whirling frezny and Ferocity gave some other bonuses? Rage means you are more reckless but tougher and stubborn so on top of the +4 str and con, +2 to will saves and -2 to AC they aslo got a limited amount of Dr that improved in quality and number as you leveled? and for whirling frenzy you get the +4 str +2 AC and Reflex saves, -2 for an extra attack and got some bonuses to move speed and ignoring some difficult terrain? And for Ferocity giving on top of the +4 Str and Dex and -2 for ranged attacks for over 30 ft you got bonuses to initiative and other anti-surprise round goodies?

Equilibria

2013-08-30, 01:20 AM

Telonius: Example ... tax collector comes around with a complicated explanation of why the tax increase is necessary, that it's the townsfolk's duty to support the king's war against the goblins, that the future benefits are going to be flowing in for certain. He gives a mathematical demonstration as to how the tax will fall on a typical family, and that no one will be forced to go hungry - military service will be accepted in lieu of payment for the truly needy.

Barbarian response: "I honestly don't know what to make of those little ledgers. But for the rest of it, what you mean to say is that we're going to have half-portions from now until next harvest, and anyone who can't pay is going to be conscripted or go to prison."

I don´t know. That sounds more like it should be up to the guy playing the character more than something that should Integrated in the class... But maybe i´m wrong.
Could you give an example of how you would do that... game mechanic-wise??

Nightraiderx: Another thing that could be interesting with the Rage, Whirling Frenzy, and Ferocity concepts is to add some other bonuses and benefits. I noticed in your chart Fax that you didn't give speed bonuses, what if Rage, whirling frezny and Ferocity gave some other bonuses? Rage means you are more reckless but tougher and stubborn so on top of the +4 str and con, +2 to will saves and -2 to AC they aslo got a limited amount of Dr that improved in quality and number as you leveled? and for whirling frenzy you get the +4 str +2 AC and Reflex saves, -2 for an extra attack and got some bonuses to move speed and ignoring some difficult terrain? And for Ferocity giving on top of the +4 Str and Dex and -2 for ranged attacks for over 30 ft you got bonuses to initiative and other anti-surprise round goodies?

Hey Nightraiderx. Sorry it took me so long to reply (RL you know). That´s a very good idea. When the barbarian turns on his juice, whether it´s rage, frenzy or ferocity he should have several other options turning on with it. This could give the barbarian the flexibility that is needed to make him more interesting as a class.
Thanks Again, you have been a great help.

ryu

2013-08-30, 01:58 AM

Also just to reward the archetype of brutal and incredibly messy combat that comes with being a barbarian make ever bit of blood spilled in a fight give bonuses to attacks, crit ranges, movement, and at higher amounts of silly gore even a little temp hp. Blood he sees flowing counts, blood he exposes personally counts more, his blood counts more still, and if he intentionally spills some of it himself it counts the most. How much blood is spilled should be based on damage, whether a crit happened or not, How inherently messy a weapon is, and of course whether the target actually has blood.

As you can probably tell everything I want added directly encourages playing a freak tornado storm with legs or makes it easier to do.

Equilibria

2013-08-30, 02:53 AM

ryu: Also just to reward the archetype of brutal and incredibly messy combat that comes with being a barbarian make ever bit of blood spilled in a fight give bonuses to attacks, crit ranges, movement, and at higher amounts of silly gore even a little temp hp. Blood he sees flowing counts, blood he exposes personally counts more, his blood counts more still, and if he intentionally spills some of it himself it counts the most. How much blood is spilled should be based on damage, whether a crit happened or not, How inherently messy a weapon is, and of course whether the target actually has blood.

As you can probably tell everything I want added directly encourages playing a freak tornado storm with legs or makes it easier to do.

I will call it blood rage, and i will hug it and kiss it and nuture it...

This just gave me so many mental images of primitive hulks howling at the moon and undergoing some ritualistic bloodletting before battle... Scary image to say the least.

Thanks ryu, that is an exellent idea.

Kristinn

2013-08-30, 03:06 AM

I don't like the idea of "different Rages". Rage should be an uncontrolled frenzy of a sort, like Norsemen biting their shields in the face of battle. It should give then increased strength (like normal), and some form of withstanding more punishment. I don't like the +Con way of doing it, what I would prefer is this:

When in Rage, the Barbarian gains damage reduction/- equal to his Barbarian level. However, each point of damage prevented like that should be counted, and at the end of the Rage the Barbarian takes half of that damage (maybe even also Fort save for half with some appropriate, maybe scaling with damage DC). This would give that "impervious to damage while mad with rage" feeling, and the slumping down when it runs out.

Equilibria

2013-08-30, 03:22 AM

Kristinn: I don't like the idea of "different Rages". Rage should be an uncontrolled frenzy of a sort, like Norsemen biting their shields in the face of battle. It should give then increased strength (like normal), and some form of withstanding more punishment. I don't like the +Con way of doing it, what I would prefer is this:

When in Rage, the Barbarian gains damage reduction/- equal to his Barbarian level. However, each point of damage prevented like that should be counted, and at the end of the Rage the Barbarian takes half of that damage (maybe even also Fort save for half with some appropriate, maybe scaling with damage DC). This would give that "impervious to damage while mad with rage" feeling, and the slumping down when it runs out.

Hey Kristinn, thanks for giving me your view on the barbarian.

Now bear in mind that i´m not trying to shoot down your idea. I´m merely probing to find out more.

Don´t you think it becomes a bit old when your playing a barbarian and you say the words "i begin to rage" for the umphteenth time. Wouldn´t it be better if you could surprise your enemies (and be surprised by your DM) by bringing something new to the table?

Alternatively i could make it so a barbarian would have to choose what kind of "rage" he can enter and then explain it with fluff (i´m thinking that the normal berserker could get the bonusses you describe, while another barbarian worships a totem wolf of some kind and when he rages he becomes a throat ripping, foe tripping murderous ghost). The different rages could get better and with more cool abilities as you level up.

Would that make the different rages more palatable for you??

atomicwaffle

2013-08-30, 07:13 AM

Human Barbarian
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple

Make Zangief

ryu

2013-08-30, 09:25 AM

You also get the mental image of non-good barbarians taking small animals into combat as cheap sources of buff. It's cheaper than potions or even wands!

Equilibria

2013-08-30, 04:40 PM

atomicwaffle: Human Barbarian
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple

Make Zangief

So what you are saying is that you think the barbarian should have the option of being an unarmed combatant, or a grappler?

ryu: You also get the mental image of non-good barbarians taking small animals into combat as cheap sources of buff. It's cheaper than potions or even wands!

Yeah... he could get his hands on a modified gunbelt (the kind you strap across your chest) that holds squirrels. That would look cool :smallcool:

Greenish

2013-08-30, 07:18 PM

So what you are saying is that you think the barbarian should have the option of being an unarmed combatant, or a grappler?Probably. At least they shouldn't suck at it, since they're a bit more likely to get caught without weapons at hand than, say, fighters.

A size increase, actual or virtual, would help there, too.

Occasional Sage

2013-08-30, 10:23 PM

Equilibria

2013-08-31, 04:01 AM

Greenish: Probably. At least they shouldn't suck at it, since they're a bit more likely to get caught without weapons at hand than, say, fighters.

A size increase, actual or virtual, would help there, too.

I can see that. the barbarian should be able to wrestle a bear to the ground.

Occasional Sage: I've always liked the total shutdown, stone cold type of "rage".

You mean like Frenzied Berserker, or something else?
Could you elaborate?

Runestar

2013-08-31, 07:20 AM

I can see that. the barbarian should be able to wrestle a bear to the ground.

You mean like Frenzied Berserker, or something else?
Could you elaborate?

I am thinking you just become cold, unfeeling, calm and super-analytical with your moves. Something like Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin manga when he goes into Battousai mode.

Equilibria

2013-08-31, 11:24 AM

Runestar: I am thinking you just become cold, unfeeling, calm and super-analytical with your moves. Something like Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin manga when he goes into Battousai mode.

That is definently an alternative way of thinking of raging... I like it, but maybe it would make more sense when i have a go at the samurai, what do you think??

Equilibria

2013-08-31, 11:42 AM

Tvtyrant: I think the Barbarian/berserker paradigm deserves more awesome stuff than just strength increases. Growing large, turning into a bear, gaining the ability to cast magic powered by rage, even the ability to shatter spells with a shout are all things it should be able to do (maybe not all at once.) The more Gurren Lagann/G Gundam the Barbarian becomes the happier I am,

Hey Tvtyrant. Sorry i haven´t replied to your post yet, i must have missed it.

Anyway, thanks for mentioning the Gurren Langann/G Gundam stuff. I´ll look it over and see what it´s about.

Blackhawk748

2013-08-31, 12:09 PM

BWR

2013-08-31, 12:28 PM

Ah Barbars, their so much fun. Another fun thing you could do with rage is mimic the Druid Aspect of Nature Variant, except that the Barbarian can shift slightly while raging into an Animal Aspect. On top of the Str and Con bonus they could grow claws and maybe a small Nat armor boost. On second thought this would probably work better for a Barbarian feat, maybe get it at 6th lvl and can activate it as part of a rage by expending one more rage?

Pathfinder barbarian (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/coreClasses/barbarian.html) has done this to a great extent.

I am thinking you just become cold, unfeeling, calm and super-analytical with your moves.
The Hida Berserker from L5R. Otherwise called the 'dead-eyes'. They go into a sort of trance, ignore all pain and focus entirely on their enemy. They gain a butt-load of bonuses to attacks and damage rolls. The downside is they take a bit extra damage each time they're hit.
In d20 terms (ignoring the official attempts to convert) their rage would probably be something like:
+1/lvl bonus to attacks (I would suggest restricting to melee)
+2/lvl damage bonus (ditto)
Diehard effect
immunity to pain effects
bonus to Will saves
take +1/2 levels extra damage (round down) on each successful attack against you
possibly easier to hit, like normal rage

Greenish

2013-08-31, 12:32 PM

In d20 terms (ignoring the official attempts to convert) their rage would probably be something like:
+1/lvl bonus to attacks (I would suggest restricting to melee)
+2/lvl damage bonus (ditto)Hur dur dur yeah no.

Blackhawk748

2013-08-31, 12:51 PM

i dont know, taking 50% more damage is pretty severe, even with the awesome bonus your getting. that lasts the entire time your in rage, imagine having 6 goblins gang up on you. Now lets say three hit and do about 4 damage each, ok thats 12 damage, thats not so bad, oh wait your raging? well that just turned into 18 damage. Needless to say it needs to be tweaked a bit but its not a bad idea.

Edit: having now flipped through the Pathfinder Barbarian powers, i think those are a good place to start as they have a lot of options, most of them can be shifted into Feats for 3.5 and some should just be made into the "standard" barbarian.

Fyermind

2013-08-31, 01:45 PM

So the real problem Barbarians as written have is lack of cool options.

I think dungeoncrasher ACF for fighters makes more sense on a barbarian personally. So I'd do that and limit it to during rages, and have it start a little later (maybe third and 7th levels?).

I would take all those feats that require rage and do something fairly minor, and get them as bonus feats every four levels or so starting at second level.

They would get some abilities like the Knight's Challenge ability that might burn rage attempts as well as abilities like a self heal, and the ability to transfer damage from someone to yourself (as an EX) by having them drink your blood.

They would get rage more often (say constitution + 1/3 class level).

Out of combat they would need things that make them good at movement. I am in full favor of them eventually getting either a climb or swim speed. The ability to ignore difficult terrain at some point also sounds good.

Making them better at surviving in nature sounds good. Endure elements was a great suggestion.

ACFs would allow for an archer variant that boosts strength and dex and gets rage abilities useful at range including functional ranged pin.

Equilibria

2013-09-01, 03:09 PM

Blackhawk748: Ah Barbars, their so much fun. Another fun thing you could do with rage is mimic the Druid Aspect of Nature Variant, except that the Barbarian can shift slightly while raging into an Animal Aspect. On top of the Str and Con bonus they could grow claws and maybe a small Nat armor boost. On second thought this would probably work better for a Barbarian feat, maybe get it at 6th lvl and can activate it as part of a rage by expending one more rage?

Theres my 2 cents, also i second the DR maybe just give them a bit more when they hit lvl 20.

Hey Blackhawk748, and thanks for your post.
So kind of like the shifters racial ability as a class feature... Yeah i can see that. Looking at different animal the barbarian could gain different abilities when they rage.
I´m not averse to making it a class feature.

I´ll chalk up another for DR.

Blackhawk748: i dont know, taking 50% more damage is pretty severe, even with the awesome bonus your getting. that lasts the entire time your in rage, imagine having 6 goblins gang up on you. Now lets say three hit and do about 4 damage each, ok thats 12 damage, thats not so bad, oh wait your raging? well that just turned into 18 damage. Needless to say it needs to be tweaked a bit but its not a bad idea.

Edit: having now flipped through the Pathfinder Barbarian powers, i think those are a good place to start as they have a lot of options, most of them can be shifted into Feats for 3.5 and some should just be made into the "standard" barbarian.

Yeah thats what i thought. It may be a Little to much of a penalty, but the idea is sound.

I agree, i´ll look to the Pathfinder barbarian when making my "fix".

BWR: Pathfinder barbarian has done this to a great extent.

Quote:

I am thinking you just become cold, unfeeling, calm and super-analytical with your moves.

The Hida Berserker from L5R. Otherwise called the 'dead-eyes'. They go into a sort of trance, ignore all pain and focus entirely on their enemy. They gain a butt-load of bonuses to attacks and damage rolls. The downside is they take a bit extra damage each time they're hit.
In d20 terms (ignoring the official attempts to convert) their rage would probably be something like:
+1/lvl bonus to attacks (I would suggest restricting to melee)
+2/lvl damage bonus (ditto)
Diehard effect
immunity to pain effects
bonus to Will saves
take +1/2 levels extra damage (round down) on each successful attack against you
possibly easier to hit, like normal rage

Hey BWR.

The pathfinder barbarian will definently be part of my inspiration as i think they have done lots of things right.

I have never heard of the Hida Berserker, but i will look it up and see. Your suggestion is a nice take on rage and i will see about incorporating it in my "fix".

Greenish: Hur dur dur yeah no.

I take all suggestions. Even if i don´t like the suggestion, it can lead to other ideas.

Fyermind: So the real problem Barbarians as written have is lack of cool options.

I think dungeoncrasher ACF for fighters makes more sense on a barbarian personally. So I'd do that and limit it to during rages, and have it start a little later (maybe third and 7th levels?).

I would take all those feats that require rage and do something fairly minor, and get them as bonus feats every four levels or so starting at second level.

They would get some abilities like the Knight's Challenge ability that might burn rage attempts as well as abilities like a self heal, and the ability to transfer damage from someone to yourself (as an EX) by having them drink your blood.

They would get rage more often (say constitution + 1/3 class level).

Out of combat they would need things that make them good at movement. I am in full favor of them eventually getting either a climb or swim speed. The ability to ignore difficult terrain at some point also sounds good.

Making them better at surviving in nature sounds good. Endure elements was a great suggestion.

ACFs would allow for an archer variant that boosts strength and dex and gets rage abilities useful at range including functional ranged pin.

Hey Fyermind.
Those are all solid suggestions, thanks.

I didn´t really think about the Dungeon Chrasher ACF, but you are right... It feels more like something a barbarian should be able to do.