Challenging Players Properally

[Zancloufer]

I'm having some trouble designing appropriate encounters for my party at the moment. Most things they tend to roll much quicker than I anticipate, and I'm afraid going to high end on them will just TPK them.

Party is all level 11 Gestalt and has broken their WBL through some abuse of crafting and creation spells. Consists of a Psion(Thrallherd)//SoulKnife, Wizard//Rouge, Cleric//Crusader, Rouge(Assassin)//Swordsage, Warlock//Sorcerer, Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122)//Druid. Also there's a Minotaur//Warblade that is half DMPC that helps shore up the party. Almost never have all six players around, so usually deal with 4-5 person party.

General Tips, or even specific encounters are appreciated. Would prefer sane suggestions, Awakened Shadesteel Golems, Emerald Legion, Damm Crabs etc while amusing might be a bit to much overkill ;p

[Gavinfoxx]

There's a handbook for this, you know.

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/~Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%202 %2017%2013.doc

And it's 'Rogue'.

[John Longarrow]

Three things:
1) For Gestalt, try treating them as being of a level equal to double their EXP. This will be much closer to their actual abilities than what their "Level" would otherwise indicate.

2) If they have a lot more loot than expected, figure out what "Level" their wealth should be for. Average the result for 1 above with this. That should give you their effective level for encounters. NOTE: This gets pretty wonky at low levels but becomes much more accurate at higher levels. You should do this for each character then find out the parties average level.

3) As the party is large, I'd use 2 monsters of their CR as a challenge instead of one. If you use a single monster of higher CR it will probably get overwhelmed OR will TPK to easily. Using complimentary monsters though should allow you to reduce the group to effectively two 3-person fights on an equal monster. This does take some planning though.

You will also want to mix in some group fights where a bunch of mooks support several ranged attackers. With larger parties this works well because everyone gets involved in the fight.

Between treating the gestalt characters as higher level AND working out their effective party level (character abilities and excess wealth) you will probably notice that treating them as higher level gives you a much better idea of what they can actually deal with. This is especially true if they've been able to optimize their gear.

Hope this helps!

[Zancloufer]

First, while nice that book seemed to concentrate more on what the party can do instead of what to throw at them. Did give some insight though, and some decent tips.

For double EXP, you mean double the amount of EXP they need to get their current level, and see what level that would equal to?

By Broke WBL I mean they probably are (near) epic level of gear. Mind you it's not 100% optimized, but +30 skill items and rings of persistent True Strike are common place.

Multiple CR challenges would essentially mean that if their 'effective' ECL is about 17-19 (which is probably not that far off) throw a good 2-3 CR 14-16 mobs at them?

Half tempted to just make characters that abuse broken WBL just as bad, but I'm having trouble making some that don't sound like 'horrible murderous death train'.

PS: Is there a good way to make a CR out of class levels of enemies?

[John Longarrow]

Zancloufer

For experience, yes treat them as having twice the exps as they really have, then find out what level that would be. For example, if you have a 10th level gestalt character (45,000 XP), treat them as characters with 90,000 XP. In other words pretend that they are either 13th level really close to 14th, or at 14th level.

If they have epic level goods, say the loot of a 22nd level character, treat them as the average of their effective character level (14 instead of 10 because they are gestalt) and their wealth (22nd level) or 18th level.

Not sure if these numbers are right, but it sounds like this is the issue you are having.

So if each of the 6 players is considered an 18th level challenge, I'd toss a pair of 17th level NPCs (built with elite array, using wealth table from DMG page 127 to give 100,000 gp each for equipment).

For experience, since each character is equal to a 17th level character, the 6 get to split 10,200 (5,100 for each NPC per table in DMG page 38) or 1,700 xp each if they win.

Course the NPCs should be a pain to fight at that point, but if the PCs can win they deserve the loot. I'd also tell the players ahead of time how you are going to figure out their challenge rating and have each figure out the value of their gear. You can then look on page 135 in the DMG for the wealth by level to figure out about what level the characters gear is for.

Having played with (Gear level (WBL table) + Character level) / 2 = characters effective level for challenges, this works really well when gear is not in line with character level. Just remember that things they have made or spells they own need to be included. If the wizard has a LOT of spells, calculate each spells cost and add it in.

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like you have completely lost control of the game, by doing things the game was not meant to do.

Why don't you simply just say,

"Okay guys, rewrite these characters as normal, 30 point buy, non gestalt characters with wealth by level, by next week."

[kaminiwa]

It sounds like you have completely lost control of the game, by doing things the game was not meant to do.

Why don't you simply just say,

"Okay guys, rewrite these characters as normal, 30 point buy, non gestalt characters with wealth by level, by next week."

I could see discussing wealth, but I don't see why they'd need to convert to non-gestalt unless the GM just doesn't feel comfortable running such a campaign.

I'd really consider switching from gestalt -> not, to be the equivalent of just starting a new campaign entirely, not a "rewrite."

And messing with attributes retroactively is just asking for logistical nightmares (HP, skill points, feat requirements, prestige class entry requirements...)

If you're doing all three at the same time, I really can't see any reason not to just say "okay, new campaign, I screwed up."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On the wealth issue, it never should have happened because finding a buyer for large volumes of crafted/created goods is not an easy task. This isn't a video game where they walk up to a vendor and trade loot for coins. If they buy a cow and use Flesh to Salt and try to go sell the salt, nobody wants that much salt! Anyone willing to take it off their hands would know that and offer them a small fraction of what they were expecting to gain.

The same goes for Wall of Iron and similar, iron producers have contracts with the people who use iron and there are scheduled deliveries. If someone buys the PCs' iron at a discount, their regular supplier gets stood up for a shipment and now must sell it off at a discount. They can't stockpile it as it will rust and deteriorate. The PCs' customer knows they probably won't be around when he needs his next delivery, so he'll have to go back to his regular supplier who he'll no longer be in good standing with. That supplier may force this client to cover their losses from selling his previous shipment at a discount, and it will completely negate any gain he made from buying the PCs' iron for cheaper. Everyone involved knows how this will work out, so it will never even happen in the first place. Edit: Furthermore, they don't deal in cash for these types of goods. It's often barter or credit notes for some greater trade organization, so the PCs shouldn't even bother trying.

Furthermore, if a group of what's basically mercenaries shows up in a city trying to sell off a large volume of goods on very short notice, the local authorities will immediately presume they're bandits who have knocked over a merchant's shipment. The goods in question would be seized pending investigation, and that investigation would be ongoing until they can figure out what merchant has disappeared. The goods would be tied up in bureaucracy forever, the PCs would never get it back and they would probably either be locked up for months waiting on the investigation, or break out and be fugitives. This is how you handle these shenanigans, so after one attempt the party shouldn't try it again.

[TuggyNE]

On the wealth issue, it never should have happened because finding a buyer for large volumes of crafted/created goods is not an easy task. This isn't a video game where they walk up to a vendor and trade loot for coins. If they buy a cow and use Flesh to Salt and try to go sell the salt, nobody wants that much salt! Anyone willing to take it off their hands would know that and offer them a small fraction of what they were expecting to gain.

The same goes for Wall of Iron and similar, iron producers have contracts with the people who use iron and there are scheduled deliveries. If someone buys the PCs' iron at a discount, their regular supplier gets stood up for a shipment and now must sell it off at a discount. They can't stockpile it as it will rust and deteriorate. The PCs' customer knows they probably won't be around when he needs his next delivery, so he'll have to go back to his regular supplier who he'll no longer be in good standing with. That supplier may force this client to cover their losses from selling his previous shipment at a discount, and it will completely negate any gain he made from buying the PCs' iron for cheaper. Everyone involved knows how this will work out, so it will never even happen in the first place. Edit: Furthermore, they don't deal in cash for these types of goods. It's often barter or credit notes for some greater trade organization, so the PCs shouldn't even bother trying.

These are a little exaggerated, I think; it's not impossible to sell salt or iron for cheaper than the going rate, it just takes a bit of legwork. If nothing else, set up as a regular merchant. :smalltongue:

Salt, in particular, has historically had quite considerable demand; if you turn a single cow into salt, you can quite easily sell the whole thing, perhaps in batches. It's only after five or ten cows that the market gets saturated for a few months.

[kaminiwa]

Salt, in particular, has historically had quite considerable demand; if you turn a single cow into salt, you can quite easily sell the whole thing, perhaps in batches. It's only after five or ten cows that the market gets saturated for a few months.

On the other hand, according to D&D, salt is worth 5 GP per pound, and according to reality it's worth like 0.1 denier, making salt the single most ridiculously overpriced item in D&D. The next most ridiculous item is only 10% as overpriced as salt is :D

Source: http://community.wizards.com/boo_too/blog/2012/07/07/accuracy_of_dungeons__dragons_prices

[Enguebert]

On the wealth issue, it never should have happened because finding a buyer for large volumes of crafted/created goods is not an easy task.

This reminded me a campagin (AD&D) where PC find at low level a stock of 100 potions of plant control !
Not the most wanted potion. They tried to sell them during the whole campaign, managing to selling one or two from time to time until they give them for free just to be get rid of it...and encountering a monstruous tree in the next scenario (not planned as it was a scenario from a fanzine) :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Zancloufer

For experience, yes treat them as having twice the exps as they really have, then find out what level that would be. For example, if you have a 10th level gestalt character (45,000 XP), treat them as characters with 90,000 XP. In other words pretend that they are either 13th level really close to 14th, or at 14th level.

If they have epic level goods, say the loot of a 22nd level character, treat them as the average of their effective character level (14 instead of 10 because they are gestalt) and their wealth (22nd level) or 18th level.

Not sure if these numbers are right, but it sounds like this is the issue you are having.

So if each of the 6 players is considered an 18th level challenge, I'd toss a pair of 17th level NPCs (built with elite array, using wealth table from DMG page 127 to give 100,000 gp each for equipment).

For experience, since each character is equal to a 17th level character, the 6 get to split 10,200 (5,100 for each NPC per table in DMG page 38) or 1,700 xp each if they win.

Course the NPCs should be a pain to fight at that point, but if the PCs can win they deserve the loot. I'd also tell the players ahead of time how you are going to figure out their challenge rating and have each figure out the value of their gear. You can then look on page 135 in the DMG for the wealth by level to figure out about what level the characters gear is for.

Having played with (Gear level (WBL table) + Character level) / 2 = characters effective level for challenges, this works really well when gear is not in line with character level. Just remember that things they have made or spells they own need to be included. If the wizard has a LOT of spells, calculate each spells cost and add it in.
The party's HP and general issues of action economy make this a very dangerous calculation, in my experience. The PCs have to be very optimized and very tactically savvy to survive this level of challenge, even in Gestalt and with better than expected gear.

[Zancloufer]

I have a few house rules, and the biggest one being used is using GP instead of EXP for spells/crafting (Pathfinder rule actually) and a few less restrictions on crafting. Also being slightly leiniant with Permanency.

Essentially the Wizard//Rouge super optimized their INT and had a ton of crafting feats and skills. A few good Forgery checks and 3 different level 5 spells allows one to make 'Permanent' gold (until someone dispel magics it). Not that it matters if the gold is consumed in making items.

Essentially when I said they broke WBL by crafting I mean they MADE the gear, not buying/selling stuff. Also the Thrallheard has Thrallheard//Artificers under her, so that helps in having the time to make the items. They've kinda platued now though. Even with 'infinite' gold, hoards of crafters and throwing more gold at stuff to make it faster they just don't have the time to make much better gear. Just the past 2-3 levels have seen an obscene increase in their magical item wealth.

If I can find a good way to challenge them now and just scale it a bit the campaign should be fine in the future.

Though after they did that they found some shops that had some higher end stuff. Needless to say they also know the 'infinite gold trick' (only use as much Cheese as the party does) so any shop with anything worthwhile doesn't value gold that much . . .

[skyth]

On the wealth issue, it never should have happened because finding a buyer for large volumes of crafted/created goods is not an easy task. This isn't a video game where they walk up to a vendor and trade loot for coins. If they buy a cow and use Flesh to Salt and try to go sell the salt, nobody wants that much salt! Anyone willing to take it off their hands would know that and offer them a small fraction of what they were expecting to gain.

Which is why players can only sell stuff for half the price they can buy it at :)

[Silva Stormrage]

Decent option would be to steal or break their gear if its that much of an issue. Sunderers are incredibly powerful at breaking objects. Of course this hurst martials more than casters so don't use it too much. Rogues or assassins that come in the night could steal stuff as well. If the PC's were seen selling and purchasing vast amounts of wealth then people may wish to take it from them, especially if they don't protect it well enough. Or this could simply come from one of their enemies they have encountered in the campaign.

[skyth]

The best solution would be to talk with the players and let them know that you're having trouble properly challenging them and come to a mutually fun solution. Heck, they may not want to be 'properly' challenged and this is not neccessarily a bad thing.

I would avoid taking/breaking their stuff or turning the world against them. This tends to come off as trying to punish the players. This can create bad feelings and resentment all around. After all, they spent feats (Which are valuable commodities) to gain that ability. Someone with an item creation feat SHOULD have higher than normal wealth by level and that is balanced by not having the abilities that are granted by another feat. Granted, your specific situation still seems a bit out of whack even considering that :)

I would avoid having them fight geared up NPC's on a regular basis, as that just gives them more loot to use. One thing you might consider is something that I did, which is to use the advancement rules for monsters. This gives the monsters a lot more HP and attack bonus for a relatively small increase in CR. Sticking around longer (from more HP) and hitting more (higher attack bonus) gives the illusion of being more challenging even though it isn't really all that more challenging. Granted, I did this in 3.0 more than 3.5 but the idea still holds.

[John Longarrow]

Amphetryon,

For computing gestalt being treated as a little higher in level makes for a more balanced challenge.While they still have the same number of actions as a non-gestalt, they often have far better saves, skills, and HPs for a comparable non-gestalt.

Spell casters get lots of HPs in a gestalt game because they tend to level in both spell casting and martial classes. For martial-centric builds, they tend to have a lot of options open to them that allow them to survive far better than straight characters (even with an experienced optimizer).

House ruling an effective character level by averaging the characters actual level and their wealth by level gives a much better feel for what they can handle. It works both over and under priced gear. It is a ball park since some class combo's don't need as much in gear.

Of course all DMs need to estimate what their party can/can't face.

[Vedhin]

By Broke WBL I mean they probably are (near) epic level of gear. Mind you it's not 100% optimized, but +30 skill items and rings of persistent True Strike are common place.


Is it Persistent as the metamagic, or as in a continuous item?
If it's Persistent, it still costs a standard action to activate, and only lasts one attack. If it's continuous, it should cost 8,000,000gp or so.

The first can be solved by cracking down on the action cost.
The second... Well, I don't normally advise the destruction of the PC's items, but Disjunction sounds warranted here. What, did you think I was going to use the Dos Equis line?
Regardless, cracking down on the WBL breakage is your best bet. DM vs PC mentality is bad, but sometimes you need to reign them in. Make sure not to let it go too far if you choose this option.

Note that I do not advocate knocking them down to strict WBL, but 11th level characters simply should not have rings of True Strike.

[Zancloufer]

Is it Persistent as the metamagic, or as in a continuous item?
If it's Persistent, it still costs a standard action to activate, and only lasts one attack. If it's continuous, it should cost 8,000,000gp or so.


8 million GP? According to crating rules;



Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

Which is about 22k GP. Ofc since True strike's duration is measured in round(s) that's x4 which makes it 88k GP. Plus 1/25th it's cost in EXP (or 1/5th extra GP cause of my Pathfinder style house rule). Still insane for level 11 WBL, but no where near 8mil GP.

The whole average WBL + effective Gestalt level seems like a decent idea upon thinking about it. Could always go more for larger numbers of lower CR critters to. On that note, there any good CR calculators/yard sticks out there? I have found 1-2 but they tend to be overly complicated in my experiences :x

Honestly want to role with this. Yes the party is kinda insane, but it's all fun, and I'd rather figure out how to deal with it than just DM power their crap away.

[Vedhin]

8 million GP?
Which is about 22k GP. Ofc since True strike's duration is measured in round(s) that's x4 which makes it 88k GP. Plus 1/25th it's cost in EXP (or 1/5th extra GP cause of my Pathfinder style house rule). Still insane for level 11 WBL, but no where near 8mil GP.

Honestly want to role with this. Yes the party is kinda insane, but it's all fun, and I'd rather figure out how to deal with it than just DM power their crap away.

True Strike gives a bonus to attack rolls, so it follows guidelines that are not continuous/use-activated spell guidelines.

See Wizards's breakdown here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEcQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wizards.com%2Fdefault.asp%3Fx %3Ddnd%2Frg%2F20050118a&ei=KTYhUrfyJc-9sQSl44HwCg&usg=AFQjCNG1ShPnGyZ0mCFnnldVJUuXiN72XQ&sig2=OMdH3JGWe8d2VGPENTwCrQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.aWM). They also allow for it being only 400,000gp for various reasons. Note that they forget the x10 price modifier for epic-sized bonuses. Thus, 8,000,000gp is fairly accurate. As a bonus, the article has a Figurine of Wondrous Power for That Damn Crab.:smalleek:

However you slice it though, Rings of True Strike are a bad idea.

If you want to roll with it, I reccommend non-combat encounters, given that they proabably cut through monsters like butter. The averaging WBL with ECL idea is a good bet for CR.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

8 million GP? According to crating rules;



Which is about 22k GP. Ofc since True strike's duration is measured in round(s) that's x4 which makes it 88k GP. Plus 1/25th it's cost in EXP (or 1/5th extra GP cause of my Pathfinder style house rule). Still insane for level 11 WBL, but no where near 8mil GP.

The whole average WBL + effective Gestalt level seems like a decent idea upon thinking about it. Could always go more for larger numbers of lower CR critters to. On that note, there any good CR calculators/yard sticks out there? I have found 1-2 but they tend to be overly complicated in my experiences :x

Honestly want to role with this. Yes the party is kinda insane, but it's all fun, and I'd rather figure out how to deal with it than just DM power their crap away.

That's backwards, you look at the chart top to bottom and find the first thing that looks appropriate to the item. Furthermore, if it's an always-on True Strike then the item's effect only lasts for one hit until a standard action is spent to turn it back on, or the item is taken off and put back on.

Finally, if they're using spells to make fake gold, then buying magic item crafting materials with said fake gold, then they're going to have some major trouble as soon as someone figures them out. Something as simple as a Detect Magic spell will foil this plan from the start, and anyone buying magic item crafting materials is capable of casting spells and the person selling those materials knows it. It's extremely easy to just Detect Magic on a pile of ten/hundreds of thousands of coins just in case it's all bogus. Arcane Sight can be made permanent and automatically sees magic auras without any effort. True Seeing can see through the funny money without any additional effort. If the magic item supply vendors are dealing in transactions that large, then they're most likely part of a global syndicate with beyond-epic power. I'm talking invincible Aleax-shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191143#30) enforcers and assassins, Emerald Legion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587) backup, all the standard Wizard scry-and-die shenanigans, etc. Here's how you handle this party:

1. The next time anyone goes out to buy magic item crafting supplies, they disappear. There was an invincible enforcer as above with antimagic field who grappled them, plus a dozen emerald legion goons. If the character was carrying fake money, they're dead and their items are all siezed as compensation for the PCs' crimes.

2. More invincible enforcers and emerald legion goons show up to confiscate the rest of the PCs' gear and to take vengeance on anyone else who ever brought fake money to one of those shops. The PCs are in the AMF and grappled by the invincible enforcers before they're even aware of them. They're told anyone who refuses to comply will be killed for their crimes.

3. The DM determines the prices of custom magic items, never the PCs. That table in the DMG is a DM's tool, not something the players have any business even referencing. If an item grants a bonus, then the cost is bonus squared x gp cost, not spell level x caster level x gp cost, because that's lower on the table. Furthermore, an item's minimum caster level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) is "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." If an item requires Craft Wondrous Item, its minimum caster level is automatically 3rd unless it has a spell or another feat with a higher minimum caster level. If a PC wants to create a custom item, you assign a price based first on items already present in the game, then using that table top to bottom using the first one that seems appropriate to the item's effect.

Edit: Another thing: Shops don't have hundreds of thousands of gold worth of magic item crafting supplies on hand for sale. DMG page 137 shows how much of that the PCs could find at one time in a given settlement, and this exhausts the town's supply of that for weeks. The PCs can place an order for a higher volume than what's available, but they have to pay up front and wait several weeks for it to arrive. This gives the merchants or their suppliers plenty of time to catch the fake gold, and their tricks fall flat.

[Vedhin]

invincible Aleax-shenanigans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191143#30)

It always amuses me that the optimizer's response to a deity creating a being with the sole purpose of killing you is to use it to become invulnerable.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The answer to all your problems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm)

:smallcool:

Seriously, just have a high level mage hit them all with this spell. Poof. Magic loot all gone. And then they can spend the remainder to outfit themselves with more appropriate gear. And from this point on, be more careful about WBL. If they get too crazy with it again you can threaten them with Disjunction a second time.

People complain about this spell, but it really does have it's uses.

[skyth]

It's kind of disappointing hearing the cries of 'Hurt the players, take away all their toys'. Just unilaterally taking away all their toys that they worked hard to get will just breed resentment.

I still say the best bet is to have a conversation with the players trying to find out what they want from the game so that everyone can be in alignment. They may agree that their stuff is unbalancing the game and just agree to have it go away. They may not want to be challenged. Different people want different things from the game.

[Amphetryon]

Amphetryon,

For computing gestalt being treated as a little higher in level makes for a more balanced challenge.While they still have the same number of actions as a non-gestalt, they often have far better saves, skills, and HPs for a comparable non-gestalt.

Spell casters get lots of HPs in a gestalt game because they tend to level in both spell casting and martial classes. For martial-centric builds, they tend to have a lot of options open to them that allow them to survive far better than straight characters (even with an experienced optimizer).

House ruling an effective character level by averaging the characters actual level and their wealth by level gives a much better feel for what they can handle. It works both over and under priced gear. It is a ball park since some class combo's don't need as much in gear.

Of course all DMs need to estimate what their party can/can't face.

I'm aware if these things; I've run Gestalt before. I'm saying the calculation you advised produces overpowering encounters, more often than not, in the absence of significant rules-fu, optimization, and luck on the part of the PCs.

[John Longarrow]

I'm aware if these things; I've run Gestalt before. I'm saying the calculation you advised produces overpowering encounters, more often than not, in the absence of significant rules-fu, optimization, and luck on the part of the PCs.

Both myself and another DM use these rules, especially the Wealth by Level calculation and we've had no problems. It may be the players we have that make it work well as their experience, or it may be that they know about it and avoid going adventuring with excess gear that throws their WBL off by a lot.

Either way, since they also are very good at putting together characters (especially gestalt) its worked very well for us. If it won't work for your group, please disregard. Each group has different strengths and weaknesses, so what works on our tables may not work for everyones.

[Amphetryon]

Both myself and another DM use these rules, especially the Wealth by Level calculation and we've had no problems. It may be the players we have that make it work well as their experience, or it may be that they know about it and avoid going adventuring with excess gear that throws their WBL off by a lot.

Forgive me, but that reads from here like you advocate the method you suggest as a way of punishing PCs who exceed WBL - something that, as often as not, happens specifically because of what the DM lays out, rather than the choices they make.