New question, other dragon like monsters for animal companion

[Invader]

Edit* New question, what other dragon like creatures aside from the drakenstead, phynxkin, and pseudodragon could work mechanically for a Druids animal companion?





Thoughts on giving a wyrmling green dragon as an animal companion to a 5th level druid? Pitfalls or anything I should watch out for our should it be avoided altogether?




Edit: I do realize dragons have a high Int for an AC and it will be an intelligent creature.

[eggynack]

What I would do is use dragon familiars from Draconomicon as a guideline for how to work them, and make the adaptations used in the urban companion ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). You should maybe require a feat, in keeping with the requirements to pull it off normally, but you can't go too far off course in terms of power level using the method I've listed.

[Invader]

What I would do is use dragon familiars from Draconomicon as a guideline for how to work them, and make the adaptations used in the urban companion ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). You should maybe require a feat, in keeping with the requirements to pull it off normally, but you can't go too far off course in terms of power level using the method I've listed.

I like how this sounds. I'm afb atm but the urban companion ACF looks like a really good starting point for it.

[Omegas]

If you intend to give him a dragon it needs to be among the non intelligent breeds. Companions are not pets but they are not slaves either. Commanding a creature with senescent intelligent can result in the creature disobeying often. Think of it like a teenager always going against their parents wishes. Furthermore a dragon of any age is a bit much for a 5th level character.

[Invader]

If you intend to give him a dragon it needs to be among the non intelligent ent breeds. Companions are not pets but they are not slaves either. Commanwhat a creature with senescent intelligent can result in the creature disobeying often. Think of it like a teenager always going against their parents wishes. Furthermore a dragon of any age is a bit much for a 5th level character.

I'd disagree with this, eggynacks solution is pretty much spot on for doing it the right way as the urban animal companion is specifically for giving an intelligent AC. Plus what dragons are non intelligent?

I'd put a wyrmling lower than a fleshraker in terms of combat power and you can get a fleshraker at 4th.

[eggynack]

If you intend to give him a dragon it needs to be among the non intelligent breeds. Companions are not pets but they are not slaves either. Commanding a creature with senescent intelligent can result in the creature disobeying often. Think of it like a teenager always going against their parents wishes. Furthermore a dragon of any age is a bit much for a 5th level character.
Why would those things be? I tend to like drawing parities when venturing into new territory, and while the path I constructed may require work, it's a decent starting point to get this result. Just on a basic level, familiars are generally intelligent, so there's an obvious precedent for having an intelligent creature that'll generally follow your directions. Maybe imperfectly, but as well as a familiar does. Further, because of urban companion, there's a precedent for druids gaining intelligent companions of this type. I'd probably wait till seventh level, because dragon familiar requires you to be a seventh level arcane caster, but the conversion from animal companions to familiars gets you a bit ahead of the curve, so it wouldn't be too far off the mark. There are some missing pieces, like how effectively you can do the conversion from the conversion from familiar to dragon, to the conversion from urban companion to dragon. However, this and the other potential problems are not insurmountable, and a draconic animal companion is workable on that basis.

[Deophaun]

Should be mentioned there's an ACF in Draconomicon that gives a druid a phynxkin companion, which I think is as close to RAW for a draconic companion as there is. But, they are still animals, still Int 2.

[eggynack]

Should be mentioned there's an ACF in Draconomicon that gives a druid a phynxkin companion, which I think is as close to RAW for a draconic companion as there is. But, they are still animals, still Int 2.
Dragon Magic page 13, actually. I'm not a fan, because it just doesn't do all that much, but that's definitely an option of some kind.

[Erik Vale]

I would think Urban Companion ACF for a familiar [with benifits], and then picking up Dragon Familiar at [I think] Level 7 [with the feat modified to be usable, I think it needs arcane caster levels].

Druids get good stuff, but let's not have them be in open mockery of wizards, the class feature is ANIMAL companion after all.

[Ramza00]

Dragon HD is so much better than animal HD

Better Int
Better Skills
Better Saves
Better BAB
Better AC
Breath Weapon
More Attacks (usually)

A Dragon is not an animal companion, it should not be an animal companion, instead just make it a cohort and have the Druid take leadership (or perform other similar feat taxes). Understand that making a dragon your animal companion will increase the power and versatility of the druid.

--------

Or instead take the stats of an Eagle->Dire Eagle->Dragonhawk which are normal Druid Animal Companions and roleplay these stats as a Dragon

[Omegas]

Dragon HD is so much better than animal HD

A Dragon is not an animal companion, it should not be an animal companion, instead just make it a cohort and have the Druid take leadership (or perform other similar feat taxes). Understand that making a dragon your animal companion will increase the power and versatility of the druid.
Agreed. But note there are beast-like, low-intelligent dragon breeds that I would classify as closer to a magical beast. All of the listed basic companions are animal or dinosaur types. Giving them an intelligent dragon is no different then giving them a beholder.

As for the previous family commit = there is a big differences between being annoyingly bossy to protect your family and telling your 6 year old to kill someone. And to be clear that is what the druid would eventually be asking of that infant dragon. Having senescent level intelligence means they can reevaluate every situation on their own. I like to point out this composite of rules.

Virtually any character can have a domesticated animal as a pet, but only characters that have a companion as part of their class features can train a creature to do more than simple tricks. Druid and Ranger companions become magical beasts and gain benefits as their masters advance in levels. (Pg 36) These magical beasts are loyal friends but not pets or servants. They will not remain loyal if being a character’s friend becomes too onerous (DMG 205) Often companions that are considered dangerous or a nuisance will not be allowed in public areas. A tyrannosaurus is more then enough to spook the local military forces. Equally a large predator can become confused or agitated in a large crowd. Stabling a companion is the same as a mount.

Furthermore Urban campaign and Druid are two words that commonly clash. Although druids are found in major cities, as a character they would be spending every none working moment in a druid grove. Part of the job description is communing with nature which does not mean living behind masonry walls in front of cobble stone streets. It would be like having an honest rogue, a selfish paladin, or a child beating monk. Not to say there has never been characters like that but if you fail to run it right then you could deprive the character of a major aspect of their class identity.

Before anyone jumps on it I will admit that I am not overly familiar with the Druid Prestige classes. At most only a hand full of my players have ran basic druids. Their may be a urban druid coyboy class, but it still does not justify giving them a dragon.

[Gwendol]

Druid and Ranger companions become magical beasts and gain benefits as their masters advance in levels. (Pg 36) These magical beasts are loyal friends but not pets or servants.

No, they are "treated as magical beasts". Not quite the same thing. And they never gain any intelligence.

[Invader]

Let's keep in mind it's animal companion not animal slave. Why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that a druid would care for a wyrmling it's parent wasnt the around.

I really don't see much problem with it mechanically and I was already considering making him wait to 6th level anyway. And yeah dragon hit die are better than animal but it wouldn't be gaining any more HD past the couple it would start with unlike a regular animal companion.

[Deophaun]

No, they are "treated as magical beasts". Not quite the same thing. And they never gain any intelligence.
I actually can't find anything about animal companions becoming magical beasts or being treated like magical beasts. Either would suck for Druids, as suddenly all their spells that only target animals would cease to work on their familiar.

[eggynack]

I actually can't find anything about animal companions becoming magical beasts or being treated like magical beasts. Either would suck for Druids, as suddenly all their spells that only target animals would cease to work on their familiar.
It is likely that you are unable to find it because you're looking at an errata'd version of the rules. In particular, the PHB errata says, "Contrary to the text, a druid’s animal companion is not treated as a magical beast; it remains an animal."

[Feytalist]

A special case: the Exalted Companion feat allows you to choose certain magical beasts as companions, or turn your companion into a celestial version. It specifically says you can cast spells on it as though it were an animal.

As far as I know, that's the only case where an animal companion is not an actual animal.

[Gwendol]

Ah, that explains the omission of the PHB text in the SRD regarding the AC.

[Nightraiderx]

I found the drakkensteed an interesting compromise,
it is a non-intelligent dragon type that has the same stats
as a heavy warhorse but can fly. Forget if it's in Dragon magic, draconomicon
or races of the dragon, I always get mixed up what's in which of those three lol.

[eggynack]

I found the drakkensteed an interesting compromise,
it is a non-intelligent dragon type that has the same stats
as a heavy warhorse but can fly. Forget if it's in Dragon magic, draconomicon
or races of the dragon, I always get mixed up what's in which of those three lol.
It's in Dragon Magic, page 113. It seems plausible, but I'm not sure there's a point. Phynxkin hold the same animal with the (dragonblood) subtype status, and you can pick those guys up normally with an ACF.

[Gwendol]

Let's keep in mind it's animal companion not animal slave. Why is it so far out of the realm of possibility that a druid would care for a wyrmling it's parent wasnt the around.

I really don't see much problem with it mechanically and I was already considering making him wait to 6th level anyway. And yeah dragon hit die are better than animal but it wouldn't be gaining any more HD past the couple it would start with unlike a regular animal companion.

It's not, but it should be a cohort, not an animal companion.

[eggynack]

It's not, but it should be a cohort, not an animal companion.
Or a familiar, as I've noted. that method has parity with existing options, so it's a viable method, I think.

[Gwendol]

Exactly. Either way is better than just ignoring the fact that the AC is supposed to be an animal.

[Omegas]

It is likely that you are unable to find it because you're looking at an errata'd version of the rules. In particular, the PHB errata says, "Contrary to the text, a druid’s animal companion is not treated as a magical beast; it remains an animal."

Thanks i did not know they errata' that.

Invader = everyone is making valid points. You asked:
Thoughts on giving a wyrmling green dragon as an animal companion to a 5th level druid? Pitfalls or anything I should watch out for our should it be avoided altogether? The consensuses is that a green dragon should be avoided altogether, Yet there are plausible methods of offering the druid a beast like dragon. Intelligence is the major factor, consider if a Colossal Druid dragon had you for their animal companion. Your not a slave or a pet but your require to at their side always to aid them whenever needed. You have little or no right to pursue your own goals except to be dedicated to your master's objectives. For a dog this is no sacrifice. For an intelligent creature (even one who likes their master) this means giving up most of their freedoms.

Another example: I am sure you have friends. Could you dedicate your whole attention to just one, all the time? To come when they called, to help with whatever they needed, and the only reward was a hot meal or a pat on the head.

I doubt your druid will be paying this dragon for its services thus, other then friendship food and some minor druid perks, what does the intelligent green baby dragon get out of the relationship? I am not trying to be mean I am just trying to answer the question you asked.

[Invader]

Exactly. Either way is better than just ignorng the fact that the AC is supposed to be an animal.

In core maybe but there are lots of ways to get a non animal as an AC so there's plenty of precedent for having an intelligent non animal for an AC.

[eggynack]

Exactly. Either way is better than just ignoring the fact that the AC is supposed to be an animal.
But I'm saying that you can get a familiar as an animal companion, so it's not significantly problematic. There's not really a RAW way to get a dragon friend as a druid, but you can get pretty close.

[Omegas]

But I'm saying that you can get a familiar as an animal companion, so it's not significantly problematic. There's not really a RAW way to get a dragon friend as a druid, but you can get pretty close.

What??? Is this another eratta? My understanding was that familiars could not double as animal companions.

[eggynack]

What??? Is this another eratta? My understanding was that familiars could not double as animal companions.
As I mentioned, the urban companion ACF from hereabouts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) lets you trade off your animal companion for a somewhat adapted version of a familiar. It's not identical, but it's adapted upwards in power, rather than downwards, so a perfectly identical copy of dragon familiar over to druids would logically be balanced. It'd probably be similarly reasonable to copy over the adaptations to the dragon, and the changes aren't that complicated, so it should be fine.

[Krobar]

In my games (YMMV in others) if someone wants a dragon companion, they wait until at least 9th level and then take Dragon Cohort. Then they go adventuring to find a dragon that will serve as their companion and cohort, convince it to do so (all roleplaying - since they took the feat I don't make them roll anything), maybe bribe it or otherwise make it happy, and there you go. They've got a loyal dragon companion. The only reason I make them adventure is so that I can take a few sessions to get there. Nothing worthwhile should ever be simply handed to the characters. Plus it gives me an instant adventure hook.

[Gwendol]

But I'm saying that you can get a familiar as an animal companion, so it's not significantly problematic. There's not really a RAW way to get a dragon friend as a druid, but you can get pretty close.

And I don't dispute this. The path for getting a dragon familiar is fine, but my method of choice would be a dragon cohort.

[eggynack]

And I don't dispute this. The path for getting a dragon familiar is fine, but my method of choice would be a dragon cohort.
I suppose that's fair. Still, although non-animal AC's are rare, they do exist, and are generally worth taking note of. In addition to urban companion, Feytalist noted the existence of the feat exalted companion, which gets you a magical beast, and I'll add elemental companion (CM, 33), which obviously gets you an elemental, to the list. Using dragon cohort instead of dragon companion is certainly an option, but I don't think it should necessarily be the only option.




Furthermore Urban campaign and Druid are two words that commonly clash. Although druids are found in major cities, as a character they would be spending every none working moment in a druid grove. Part of the job description is communing with nature which does not mean living behind masonry walls in front of cobble stone streets. It would be like having an honest rogue, a selfish paladin, or a child beating monk. Not to say there has never been characters like that but if you fail to run it right then you could deprive the character of a major aspect of their class identity.

Before anyone jumps on it I will admit that I am not overly familiar with the Druid Prestige classes. At most only a hand full of my players have ran basic druids. Their may be a urban druid coyboy class, but it still does not justify giving them a dragon.
Cityscape, in addition to urban companion, has a whole pile of druidic city adaptations. There's a whole list in the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and the book itself has a couple of cool things as well. Suffice to say that an urban druid is quite possible, within the rules, and without using any prestige classes.

[Invader]

I'm confused as to the big difference between giving him a wyrmling and saying it's an animal companion and giving him a wyrmling and saying it's a cohort. Either way it's going to be played pretty similarly.

[Omegas]

Cityscape, in addition to urban companion, has a whole pile of druidic city adaptations. There's a whole list in the web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), and the book itself has a couple of cool things as well. Suffice to say that an urban druid is quite possible, within the rules, and without using any prestige classes.

I did not say it was impossible but being a druid in an urban environment denotes that they should have to take extra efforts to remain true to the druidic ways. Much like a lawful good cleric should not be able to murder without it effecting their alignment.

Well honestly I see both your points, but a line still is drawn based on the creatures intelligence. Anything cable of communication on it own right should be a cohort, whereas it would not be a major bend of the rules to allow any beast like creature with the correct HD to act as an Animal Companion so long as the CR did not significantly exceed what a druid could have outright.

Still I do have to lean towards Gwendol point of view.
Another major factor to the big picture is that if the character took these extra steps just to get a dragon type Animal Companion, it would not take long before he was justifiably permitted to call another more powerful companion. There are a few but most often the majority of Familiars can not offensively compare with the high end creatures on the Animal Companion list.

[Omegas]

I'm confused as to the big difference between giving him a wyrmling and saying it's an animal companion and giving him a wyrmling and saying it's a cohort. Either way it's going to be played pretty similarly.

The difference is the rules behind cohort. Cohorts are independent agent that receives something from the relationship. They profit in their own right, which reducing the earnings of the party. That is if the group is kind other wise just the druid pays for them. A cohort is a member of the party not a resource of a player. If the "Leadership" is not kept up the Cohort leaves (period) Forever. If an animal companion leaves another generic one can be called.

I need to ask. Why is it vital to be an intelligent Dragon type? Is it not easier to give him a unintelligent version. The Druid still has a host abilities to communicate with the animal like dragon. They just would not be able to play chest with it and they would get no more out of conversations then they would talking to a badger. I cant believe the druid could not find an external NPC to be a friend with.

[Invader]

The difference is the rules behind lt independent agent that receives something from the rplayer is going gnship. They profit in their own right, which reducing the earnings of the party. That is if the group is kind other wise just the druid pays for them. A cohort can is a member of the party not a resource of a player. If the "Leadership" is not kept up the Cohort leaves (period). If an animal companion leaves another one can be called.

But this is largely fluff and over looked. In any case whether it's an animal companion or a cohort if it's being mistreated, the player is going to lose it.

Two other points ;

Druids can get intelligent animal companions by RAW as has been brought up.

Saying a player shouldn't have something because it might lead to them trying to justify something else is completely a null argument because it's all conjecture.

[Invader]

I need to ask. Why is it vital to be an intelligent Dragon e? Is it not easiest gives me the to give him a unintelligent version. The Druid still has a host abilities to communicate with the animal like dragon. They just would not be able to play chest with it and they would get no more out of conversations then they would talking to a badger. I cant believe the druid could not find an external NPC to be a friend with.

Because it fits thematically in my story and might play a roll on the story later on, at the very least it gives me the option if I choose.

[Yawgmoth]

I'm confused as to the big difference between giving him a wyrmling and saying it's an animal companion and giving him a wyrmling and saying it's a cohort. One has him taking a feat to have both a cohort and an AC, the other has him trading the AC for a DC. The latter puts you on a highway to hell for your dirty deeds and you end up thunderstruck.

My opinion is to just do it if it will lead to a better story and more fun for you and your players. I gave my dread necromancer player a shadow dragon wyrmling for a familiar free of charge and it has been nothing but fun. Just remember that it's a baby (poor impulse control, low empathy, impatient) chromatic dragon (greedy, prideful, borderline sociopath) when you play it.

[Invader]

I could have mentioned earlier but the campaign is set in Eberron so other than stats and abilities, color is fairly irrelevant as far as behavior.

[Omegas]

As always as the DM you can rule any way you see fit. You can offer them even more if you so chose. If you have already decided then why are we still taking?

But if you do wish to discuss this then it is only conjecture if ignore certain facts.

Cohorts are a resource you continually pay to upkeep. Which often work to the DMs advantage in regards to story lines.

Animal Companions are a costless class feature that a player can manipulate to their advantage.

Now I ask again. Would your party not benefit more form having a baby dragon Cohort or even better a Follower, and allowing the Druid to have his normal offensive animal or beast companion?

It seems to me your giving them twice the bang for the buck, and the Druid does not have to worry about losing their best friend. To be clear calling a new AC does not give you the same critter.

[Invader]

As always as the DM you can rule any way you see fit. You can offer them even more if you so chose. If you have already decided then why are we still taking?

But if you do wish to discuss this then it is only conjecture if ignore certain facts.

Cohorts are a resource you continually pay to upkeep. Which often work to the DMs advantage in regards to story lines.

Animal Companions are a costless class feature that a player can manipulate to their advantage.

Now I ask again. Would your party not benefit more form having a baby dragon Cohort or even better a Follower, and allowing the Druid to have his normal offensive animal or beast companion?

It seems to me your giving them twice the bang for the buck, and the Druid does not have to worry about losing their best friend. To be clear calling a new AC does not give you the same critter.

How is he getting twice the bang for the buck? He's spending a feat to upgrade to a better animal companion and there's really no more drawback to a cohort compared to an AC. The bit about paying them is all fluff, it also says that they could help for free.

I originally asked what I should look out for as far as game play, I haven't really seen much mentioned that seems like it would be much of a problem yet.

[Spuddles]

What I would do is use dragon familiars from Draconomicon as a guideline for how to work them, and make the adaptations used in the urban companion ACF from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). You should maybe require a feat, in keeping with the requirements to pull it off normally, but you can't go too far off course in terms of power level using the method I've listed.

This seems the most reasonable thing to do.

Omegas' criticisms don't make sense to me beyond a rigid view of how players should be allowed to play their characters.

[Omegas]

How is he getting twice the bang for the buck?
As you pointed out he is paying for a feat.

:roach: You can allow him to spend a feat to do away with his ordinary companion for a dragon companion.

or

:roach: He can spend his feat on leadership have his ordinary companion + the dragon cohort.

:wink: I dont know about you but I find having 2 creatures on the field much better the 1.

And to repeat, either way if it dies or he dismisses it, then he does not get the same one back. If he dumps the Cohort he can refind and rehire it.

If you need this creature for the story line - meaning it knows someone or has influence or knowledge that can effect the story line in the future, then what will you do if it dies? Storyline NPCs have the advantage of running or avoiding battles. If it just a random talking lizard then no big deal but if the party needs this creature then you will have to put on the baby gloves when handling encounters or the Druid will have to completely sacrifice the use of his companion and treat it as a background follower.

Making a dragon companion means that he will have also burned a feat for a creature that will become obsolete as he levels. Baby Dragon is good, but a T-Rex is better and a character does not get all that many feats. It seems foolish to waste a feat on something that will only benefit the character during lower levels.

Correction = receiving a share of the loot is the same as being paid. Its that much less the party members receive when loot is divided.

You asked for our opinions, I think I have made some very merit worth points.


Omegas' criticisms don't make sense to me beyond a rigid view of how players should be allowed to play their characters. I did not say players have to play a certain way, but I pointed out that is wise to keep these factors it in mind, because it is easy to forget about them or ignore them all together. Blatantly ignoring class features depreciate characters. If your just getting the benefits without the drawback then your character really does not mean much.

A druid in a city is not that hard to accommodate, but if the player is not attempting to accommodate for the needs of their character or the DM is not offering the player the opportunity to meet the characters needs, then how is any different then a lawful good murder, or a child beating monk? It brakes the definition of what they are and it is the reason for things like the atonement spell.

My statements were a warning to avoid restricting the character from fulfilling it definition, and watching to ensure that the player is attempting to make accommodations.

[Gwendol]

I'm confused as to the big difference between giving him a wyrmling and saying it's an animal companion and giving him a wyrmling and saying it's a cohort. Either way it's going to be played pretty similarly.

Not really. AC's gain HD etc according to a table, while the cohort gain XP (and shares the loot). Saying that you ignore the differences in the games you play doesn't really change the rules for how the two are supposed to be played.
The advancement of a dragon cohort is well described in the rules, while you will have to work everything out on your own (more or less) with the dragon AC. It doesn't really matter which you choose, your game your rules and all that, but since you came here asking for advice... I'm giving you mine.

[Nightraiderx]

My question is the HD and the dragon age increases..... how does one factor in those?

[Invader]

My question is the HD and the dragon age increases..... how does one factor in those?

Once a dragon ages beyond a wyrmling it can no longer be a familiar.

[Nightraiderx]

Ah, but would the HD influence this or would you have wrymlings that have above the usual HD for their racial entry?

[Invader]

Ah, but would the HD influence this or would you have wrymlings that have above the usual HD for their racial entry?

It's just the listed HD in the book and doesn't go up.

[Invader]

New question, what other dragon like creatures aside from the drakenstead, phynxkin, and pseudodragon could work mechanically for a Druids animal companion?