[3.5] Cleric/RKV Flavor Build Request

[Red Fel]

Greetings, all. First-time poster here. I've been tinkering with Tome of Battle character concepts, and one which has fascinated me for some time is that of the Ruby Knight Vindicator (RKV).

I should probably pause here to note that I am not the sort of person who optimizes a character for combat; I just never really got the knack for it. What I like designing a character around is concept, flavor, that sort of thing. The idea of a heavily armored clergyman suddenly turning into a shadowy holy assassin just struck me as terribly amusing. I started playing with combinations of Maneuvers, Spells, and Feats, and before I knew it, I had created Batcleric.

Totally accidental, but once I realized I had it, I had to piece more of it together.

The current build is set up to be, at max level, Cleric 4/ Crusader 1/ RKV 10/ Contemplative 5. This gives me, assuming my math is right, Caster Level 17 (4 from Cleric, 8 from RKV, and 5 from Contemplative), and Initiator Level 15 (2 from Cleric, 1 from Crusader, 10 from RKV, and 2 from Contemplative); that, in turn, gives me level 9 Spells and level 8 Maneuvers. The character is also Human, because bonus feats.

The flavor I'm going for is shadowy avenger. Concealment, sneaking, sudden deadly attacks. Shadow Hand Maneuvers, death-dealing spells, maybe some neat tricks like Profane Aura for added shadowy flavor. (With Profane Aura, of course, I'd likely need some tricks of my own to be able to, I don't know, see. But you get the idea.)

I'm also going a different direction with the Spells. Most of the time, I see builds like this recommending various buffs. Instead, I specifically chose spells that would avoid the need for components. Spells that could be fired off without having to think about ammunition. As it happens, a lot of these happen to be spells of the pew-pew variety, like Implosion, Dictum and Destruction. (I know, Destruction requires a Focus, but that's recyclable.)

Problem is, as I've said, my capacity for designing characters is somewhat limited.

Here's where I turn to you, those more experienced and skilled than myself at designing character concepts, selecting spells and maneuvers that function and synergize ideally, and picking the feats that make everything fit. The class selections are flexible, although obviously Cleric and RKV are the goals. I place my delicate baby concept in your capable hands.

... Help?

[Saintheart]

Trickery domain sounds right up your alley. Leaving aside you get Invisibility as a domain spell, the Trickery Devotion feat out of Complete Champion adds to the whole "now you see me, now you don't" thing I think you're going for by providing a fake you.

Eberron has a Shadow domain which has lots of darkness-y stuff (including Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, which are very nice) but I don't see any gods who allow it plus Trickery. If you're looking for pew-pew sorts of stuff, why not try dark Evocation and whatnot?

Another course is to look into the Domination domain or enchant-y sorts of domains.

[Rebel7284]

May I suggest Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Contemplative 1/RKV 3/X1

Being able to craft shadows into any evocation and most conjuration spells is nice.

Make sure to read the non-gnome adaptation

[Firechanter]

Cool choice, I love the RKV. Some notes:

- note that you get Hide, but not MS as class skill. That's a bit of a bummer, and Trickery doesn't help you get there either. If you don't want to lose more CL by multiclassing, you need to operate with items.
- eventually, picking up a Monk's Belt may be a better choice than any armour.
- a single level of Swordsage would do the trick, however; you'd still lose 1 CL but maintain IL. Complement with Able Learner for maximum benefit. _Two_ levels of Swordsage would give you godly AC, and you could drop the Monk's Belt, however 9th level spells would fall out of reach.

Consider replacing Cleric with Cloistered Cleric. The extra skill points will be a huge boon in making a stealthy character. Knowledge Devotion is also great, and more than makes up for the 1 lost BAB point. If you need Heavy Armour, you still get it from Crusader.

RKV goes down excellently with Quicken Spell, but you probably know that already. In Science Fiction, RKV stands for Relativistic Kill Vehicle, which is exactly what you will become. =D
The rule wording for Divine Impetus is a bit unclear, however. I suggest amending it with the phrase "Once per turn as a Free Action...".

Shadowcraft Mage: the problem here being not so much the race requirement (which can be waived) as the need to have a 4th-level Shadow spell. As far as I know, Clerics don't get any of these. Any way to add something like Shadow Conjuration on the list?

Edit: and of course, you'll want to spread out the last few RKV levels to the end of the build, so you can actually make use of your final IL.

[Mjollnir075]

If you really want Batcleric, i would instead suggest going

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7/ Runecaster 8.

You only end up with 7th level maneuvers IIRC, BUT, you can make your very own utility belt with at will, maximized spells instead of gadgets.

Runecaster is from PGtF, and in fact, Saintheart , who posted earlier, did a awesome job crafting (ba dum, tsh) a Runecaster handbook on the forums. In it youll find bucketloads of ideas for runes to craft.

Edit: Alternatively, you could go for Archivist instead of Cleric and pick up spells from any divine list. Paladin list has some good buff spells, and Druid has some blasty options.

[Firechanter]

Edit: Alternatively, you could go for Archivist instead of Cleric and pick up spells from any divine list.

That won't work; RKV requires Turn/Rebuke Undead for entry.

However, Pal4/Crs1 might be an interesting entry for RKV -- Divine Impetus combined with Battle Blessing should be quite awesome. (Well, "awesome" by Paladin standards.)

[Red Fel]

Trickery domain sounds right up your alley. Leaving aside you get Invisibility as a domain spell, the Trickery Devotion feat out of Complete Champion adds to the whole "now you see me, now you don't" thing I think you're going for by providing a fake you.

Eberron has a Shadow domain which has lots of darkness-y stuff (including Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation, which are very nice) but I don't see any gods who allow it plus Trickery. If you're looking for pew-pew sorts of stuff, why not try dark Evocation and whatnot?

Another course is to look into the Domination domain or enchant-y sorts of domains.

Very intriguing ideas. Unfortunately, I plan to play the classes as written, and RKV requires Wee Jas. As I recall, her Domains are limited in core to Death, Law and Magic, although I seem to recall those being expanded with additional domains subsequently. Still, I don't think Trickery is in her bailiwick, although Shadow looks like it might. I like the Shadow domain idea, and I'll look into that.


May I suggest Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3/Contemplative 1/RKV 3/X1

Being able to craft shadows into any evocation and most conjuration spells is nice.

Make sure to read the non-gnome adaptation

Ooh, now that is a tasty suggestion. And I like how breaking up RKV will give me better access to higher-level maneuvers. But my problem again is, as-written, Shadowcraft Mage is a gnome-only class, and I can't guarantee the adaptation will be admissible in a given campaign. Not to mention the fact that, starting as Cleric, my Illusion spell list is quite small, and I'd have to be able to cast, what, three illusion spells? And take spell focus? Still, you've definitely got a point with the Shadowcraft Mage as fitting the image I'm looking for.


Cool choice, I love the RKV. Some notes:

- note that you get Hide, but not MS as class skill. That's a bit of a bummer, and Trickery doesn't help you get there either. If you don't want to lose more CL by multiclassing, you need to operate with items.
- eventually, picking up a Monk's Belt may be a better choice than any armour.
- a single level of Swordsage would do the trick, however; you'd still lose 1 CL but maintain IL. Complement with Able Learner for maximum benefit. _Two_ levels of Swordsage would give you godly AC, and you could drop the Monk's Belt, however 9th level spells would fall out of reach.

Consider replacing Cleric with Cloistered Cleric. The extra skill points will be a huge boon in making a stealthy character. Knowledge Devotion is also great, and more than makes up for the 1 lost BAB point. If you need Heavy Armour, you still get it from Crusader.

RKV goes down excellently with Quicken Spell, but you probably know that already. In Science Fiction, RKV stands for Relativistic Kill Vehicle, which is exactly what you will become. =D
The rule wording for Divine Impetus is a bit unclear, however. I suggest amending it with the phrase "Once per turn as a Free Action...".

Shadowcraft Mage: the problem here being not so much the race requirement (which can be waived) as the need to have a 4th-level Shadow spell. As far as I know, Clerics don't get any of these. Any way to add something like Shadow Conjuration on the list?

Edit: and of course, you'll want to spread out the last few RKV levels to the end of the build, so you can actually make use of your final IL.

Yep, I noticed the absence of Move Silently. But then again, with things like concealment, invisibility, hiding, etc., that can even make a character more frightening - you can hear them coming, but can't see them. And good point with the Monk's Belt, Swordsage and AC issues - it raises the question, is 9th-level casting worth all that?

Cloistered Cleric is an interesting choice. And I agree, Knowledge Devotion is a bit of awesome. And you're right, under the circumstances, I'm not convinced Heavy Armor is mandatory.

I've had my eye on quicken spell for awhile, yeah. And as-written, the book doesn't technically limit Divine Impetus to once per turn... Although I'm unlikely to abuse it too much...

And I read you loud and clear on Shadowcraft Mage. (See above.)


If you really want Batcleric, i would instead suggest going

Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 7/ Runecaster 8.

You only end up with 7th level maneuvers IIRC, BUT, you can make your very own utility belt with at will, maximized spells instead of gadgets.

Runecaster is from PGtF, and in fact, Saintheart , who posted earlier, did a awesome job crafting (ba dum, tsh) a Runecaster handbook on the forums. In it youll find bucketloads of ideas for runes to craft.

Edit: Alternatively, you could go for Archivist instead of Cleric and pick up spells from any divine list. Paladin list has some good buff spells, and Druid has some blasty options.

It's not that I want Batcleric... it just sort of... happened. And alas, as I don't have the source material, I'll have to look up Runecaster. (I'll look up that handbook, though.) Maximized spells look... Tempting. And really, giving up those last three RKV levels only loses me two maneuvers and Divine Fury, which is nice but not mandatory. (Although my inner OCD will go nuts over the incomplete.) And Archivist... Huh. That's like a class-based Knowledge Devotion. I kinda like it.

EDIT:

That won't work; RKV requires Turn/Rebuke Undead for entry.

However, Pal4/Crs1 might be an interesting entry for RKV -- Divine Impetus combined with Battle Blessing should be quite awesome. (Well, "awesome" by Paladin standards.)

Darn, you're right. No Archie for me.

And yeah, I remember the BB/DI synergy. Swift spells are kinda juicy. But as I mentioned, Paladin spells help you kill people. Cleric spells do it for you. There's something to be said for convenience.

[Mjollnir075]

That won't work; RKV requires Turn/Rebuke Undead

Blargh, you are correct. I was thinking of a Pure Runecaster build i had a while ago.

But, yeah. Runecaster. Players guide to Faerun. Its whole shtick is that it lets you take things like rocks/armor/weapons/headbands ect.. and inscribe runes on them. At 8th level, you get any spell you inscribe maximised for free (more or less).

Runes can be activated by looking at them/touching them. So, inscribe maximised flamestrike on your armor and wear a ring of fire immunity. Grapple people and explode.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Archivist works fine so long as you take a level in a prestige class that grants turn undead. Something like Sacred Exorcist maybe?

[Firechanter]

As it happens, I'm just fleshing out a RKV as NPC for this weekend's game. Granted, this thread kind of incited me to do it. xD

Anyway, I'm gonna take the Cl-Cl(4)/Crs(1) approach for optimum spellcasting; relying on Knowledge Devotion to pay back on the lost BAB point with interest.

I'm going to delay the question of DMM Quicken or not until later; I think the RKV can be just awesome without any DMM at all, just using those Turns for Divine Recovery, Divine Impetus and possible Devotion feats.


And as-written, the book doesn't technically limit Divine Impetus to once per turn...

Oh, that's not the case actually. Since the ability is (Su) and does not explicitly state what kind of action triggers it, it defaults to Standard action activation as per SRD. However, trading Standard for Swift is rather stupid, because most things you can do with Swift Actions only make sense if you can follow up with a Standard.
So I'm quite convinced that it was _supposed_ to be "once per round", because "as often as you want" would be, as you observed, just plain broken.

--

Edit:
Forgot to answer one of your questions, re: "Are 9th Level spells worth it?"
Generally yes, but whether they are appropriate depends on the tone and op level of your campaign. Note that either way, you can get 9th level spells only at level 20, so you have to be sure you'll be playing that long.

Let me tell you a bit about one of my favourite characters. Played him in a rather low-magic, heavily houseruled 3.0 game with lots of nerfed and banned spells, so I deliberately gave up level 9 spells (pretty much the only useful one remaining was Summon Monster IX). Instead, I mixed in some Ranger levels and went Stealthy. Despite not wearing Heavy Armour, he had the highest AC and was a decent off-tank as well as support archer. And of course still very good Cleric spellcasting. Most importantly, all that while being reasonably good at Hide/MS (all the more so in the outdoors), which was highly appreciated by my stealthy fellow players (Ftr/Bard, Rogue and suchlike). And in a pinch, when we were about to get our a***s handed to us, I could still always fire up Divine Power and smash everything to tiny bits.
*sigh* Lovely character, would play him again any time.

[Red Fel]

Blargh, you are correct. I was thinking of a Pure Runecaster build i had a while ago.

But, yeah. Runecaster. Players guide to Faerun. Its whole shtick is that it lets you take things like rocks/armor/weapons/headbands ect.. and inscribe runes on them. At 8th level, you get any spell you inscribe maximised for free (more or less).

Runes can be activated by looking at them/touching them. So, inscribe maximised flamestrike on your armor and wear a ring of fire immunity. Grapple people and explode.

I looked into Runecaster. (That handbook is really, really helpful!) Mechanicswise, it's really slick, and definitely has its utilities. I'm not sure it fits the character concept in terms of flavor, but it's definitely something I'd like to take a much longer look at in the future. Thanks!


Archivist works fine so long as you take a level in a prestige class that grants turn undead. Something like Sacred Exorcist maybe?

Good point, but then I'm just eating up levels in multiple classes, and likely pushing back the level at which I can start RKV. As tempting as Archie is, I don't know if it's worth all the added hassle.


As it happens, I'm just fleshing out a RKV as NPC for this weekend's game. Granted, this thread kind of incited me to do it. xD

Anyway, I'm gonna take the Cl-Cl(4)/Crs(1) approach for optimum spellcasting; relying on Knowledge Devotion to pay back on the lost BAB point with interest.

I'm going to delay the question of DMM Quicken or not until later; I think the RKV can be just awesome without any DMM at all, just using those Turns for Divine Recovery, Divine Impetus and possible Devotion feats.



Oh, that's not the case actually. Since the ability is (Su) and does not explicitly state what kind of action triggers it, it defaults to Standard action activation as per SRD. However, trading Standard for Swift is rather stupid, because most things you can do with Swift Actions only make sense if you can follow up with a Standard.
So I'm quite convinced that it was _supposed_ to be "once per round", because "as often as you want" would be, as you observed, just plain broken.

--

Edit:
Forgot to answer one of your questions, re: "Are 9th Level spells worth it?"
Generally yes, but whether they are appropriate depends on the tone and op level of your campaign. Note that either way, you can get 9th level spells only at level 20, so you have to be sure you'll be playing that long.

Let me tell you a bit about one of my favourite characters. Played him in a rather low-magic, heavily houseruled 3.0 game with lots of nerfed and banned spells, so I deliberately gave up level 9 spells (pretty much the only useful one remaining was Summon Monster IX). Instead, I mixed in some Ranger levels and went Stealthy. Despite not wearing Heavy Armour, he had the highest AC and was a decent off-tank as well as support archer. And of course still very good Cleric spellcasting. Most importantly, all that while being reasonably good at Hide/MS (all the more so in the outdoors), which was highly appreciated by my stealthy fellow players (Ftr/Bard, Rogue and suchlike). And in a pinch, when we were about to get our a***s handed to us, I could still always fire up Divine Power and smash everything to tiny bits.
*sigh* Lovely character, would play him again any time.

I will totally and gladly take credit for inspiring your NPCs. :smallbiggrin:

Interesting... I'm beginning to seriously consider the Cloistered Cleric, under the circumstances. And you make a good point about the Divine Impetus unwritten limits. I agree, there's a difference between "breaking the action economy" and "turning the action economy into a space-bending moebius strip of awesome." The latter may be epic, but it takes some of the fun out of things.

You raise a really good point about the 9th-level spells, too. Given that I'd only be getting them in endgame, it makes one wonder whether it's worth it to plan that far in advance, especially since (1) there's no guarantee a campaign survives that long, (2) there's no guarantee a character survives that long, (3) half of the point of ToB classes is to allow melee-types to function without having to multiclass as casters, and (4) I've really only historically played melee-types, and the only reason I'm considering a caster multiclass is that RKV requires it as a prerequisite (and, admittedly, it is kind of awesome). So, assuming I wanted to throw 9th-level spells to the wind and Swordsage and/or Cloistered Cleric into the mix, how would you recommend I spread the levels?

Oh, and your character sounds like fun. I miss campaigns like that.

[Firechanter]

(4) I've really only historically played melee-types, and the only reason I'm considering a caster multiclass is that RKV requires it as a prerequisite (and, admittedly, it is kind of awesome). So, assuming I wanted to throw 9th-level spells to the wind and Swordsage and/or Cloistered Cleric into the mix, how would you recommend I spread the levels?

Under these circumstances, and if you are not expected to fulfill the Primary Caster role in your party, I guess I'd work the Swordsage levels in very early. Maybe you can even pull off an Idiot Crusader build, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort (you'd prolly have to invest one or two feats in Martial Study).

Anyway, the first five levels should be Cloistered Cleric (2) / Swordsage (2) / Crusader (1) -- but I haven't figured out which order would be optimal, or if it really makes such a big difference.

The nice bit about this is that you unlock 3rd level maneuvers the moment you enter RKV, and thus can immediately take a 3rd level Stance. There are many beautiful stances at this level depending on your build, either Thicket of Blades or one of the Shadow Hand ones.
* Thicket of Blades, if you want to be the party Defender, and be able to reliable lock down enemies. Combine with Stand Still.
* Assassin's Stance, if you have a way to reliably apply Sneak Attack. One great way is to combine a Spiked Chain with the Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker feats. You could even make the build more Dex-oriented, and iirc there is a spell that gives you +10 Dex for rounds/level, and combine with Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse for maximum effect. As you see, this is very feat-intensive.
* the Spider Stance is more flavour- and utility-like, but might not be bad either.

I'd add the RKV maneuvers gained to your Swordsage progression -- that has two advantages: #1, your RKV does not increase your _granted_ maneuvers, so at the end you'll have like 6 maneuvers readied but only 2 granted, which kinda sucks. #2, thanks to Divine Recovery you can screw the poor SS refresh method and just keep spamming your best stuff, which is really, really awesome.

Anyway, you enter RKV at just CL 2, but then you start going up.
At level 12, when you gain Divine Impetus, you are at BAB +10, IL 11 and CL 7, so you get 4th level spells, which are quite lovely. Still, your Turn attempts and feats are probably better spent in other ways than DMM Quicken.

RKVs are extremely MAD, but still I'd stick to Wis as primary stat. Thanks to your Swordsage levels, you can stack for instance a Mithral Breastplate and your (enhanced) Dex mod and your full Wis mod, which should put you ahead of your average Full Plate Cleric, and you keep your full speed. At level 12, I'd expect Wis 23 or so, so that's +5 armour +6 Wis +x Dex.

Oh and talking about items, if you go that way you should prolly invest in a Belt of Magnificence at higher levels, since you need really _every_ stat.

As for feats, it really depends on which route you want to go. But basically I think you can take it easy; the RKV is inherently so good that you can't really do much wrong, unless your fellow players are heavy optimizers.

[Red Fel]

Under these circumstances, and if you are not expected to fulfill the Primary Caster role in your party, I guess I'd work the Swordsage levels in very early. Maybe you can even pull off an Idiot Crusader build, but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort (you'd prolly have to invest one or two feats in Martial Study).

Anyway, the first five levels should be Cloistered Cleric (2) / Swordsage (2) / Crusader (1) -- but I haven't figured out which order would be optimal, or if it really makes such a big difference.

The nice bit about this is that you unlock 3rd level maneuvers the moment you enter RKV, and thus can immediately take a 3rd level Stance. There are many beautiful stances at this level depending on your build, either Thicket of Blades or one of the Shadow Hand ones.
* Thicket of Blades, if you want to be the party Defender, and be able to reliable lock down enemies. Combine with Stand Still.
* Assassin's Stance, if you have a way to reliably apply Sneak Attack. One great way is to combine a Spiked Chain with the Vexing Flanker and Adaptable Flanker feats. You could even make the build more Dex-oriented, and iirc there is a spell that gives you +10 Dex for rounds/level, and combine with Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse for maximum effect. As you see, this is very feat-intensive.
* the Spider Stance is more flavour- and utility-like, but might not be bad either.

I'd add the RKV maneuvers gained to your Swordsage progression -- that has two advantages: #1, your RKV does not increase your _granted_ maneuvers, so at the end you'll have like 6 maneuvers readied but only 2 granted, which kinda sucks. #2, thanks to Divine Recovery you can screw the poor SS refresh method and just keep spamming your best stuff, which is really, really awesome.

Anyway, you enter RKV at just CL 2, but then you start going up.
At level 12, when you gain Divine Impetus, you are at BAB +10, IL 11 and CL 7, so you get 4th level spells, which are quite lovely. Still, your Turn attempts and feats are probably better spent in other ways than DMM Quicken.

RKVs are extremely MAD, but still I'd stick to Wis as primary stat. Thanks to your Swordsage levels, you can stack for instance a Mithral Breastplate and your (enhanced) Dex mod and your full Wis mod, which should put you ahead of your average Full Plate Cleric, and you keep your full speed. At level 12, I'd expect Wis 23 or so, so that's +5 armour +6 Wis +x Dex.

Oh and talking about items, if you go that way you should prolly invest in a Belt of Magnificence at higher levels, since you need really _every_ stat.

As for feats, it really depends on which route you want to go. But basically I think you can take it easy; the RKV is inherently so good that you can't really do much wrong, unless your fellow players are heavy optimizers.

Interesting, a lot to take in... Also, I was thinking at some point I might take Intuitive Attack (BoED) to reduce some MAD. Using Wis in place of Str for attack rolls would probably help, right?

I think I'm going to spend a lot of time tweaking the mechanics portion (maneuvers, spells, feats) of this build, but CC and SS definitely add some value to the build.

That still leaves flavor-by-gear. Obviously I'm going to invest in at least one Nightstick, depending on whether they're allowed to stack. I'm also thinking a Crystal Mask of Knowledge, maybe upgrade it with multiple knowledge types. Perhaps an Umbral Collar (continuous) for Dark template without level adjustment. Thoughts?

I also remember reading a neat trick someone put onto their Warforged (it was in the forums here, but I forget the thread), involving a wondrous item that created an invisible cloud of mist/fog. On the one hand, having that continuous clammy feeling around a character is just other. On the other, apparently it's a great way to thwart True Seeing/ Detect Invis, because that only reveals the fog, instead of the person inside it. Flavor-wise, that's a bit sick.

I think this build could get some powerful synergies out of concealment/dodge/AoO, and various Shadow Hand teleport-style tricks. The image of this cloaked knight emerging from the mist just gives me a kick.

Gonna need awhile to tweak this, though.

EDIT: At first glance, I think I should go with CC2/ Cru1/ SS2 as my first five. As a rule, I try to keep Initiator classes later, to increase IL and choice of maneuvers, and I want SS levels later than Crusader levels, to expand my Shadow Hand access.

[Firechanter]

In a bit of a hurry atm, so I'll keep it short:


Interesting, a lot to take in... Also, I was thinking at some point I might take Intuitive Attack (BoED) to reduce some MAD. Using Wis in place of Str for attack rolls would probably help, right?

Yes, but keep in mind it only works with Simple Weapons, so probably Heavy Mace or Longspear, depending on style. Also, this does nothing for damage, so you need other sources there, such as Power Attack, which again requires a min Str 13 regardless.

As for the Invisible Fog thing, that is a quite neat trick, but at some point you'll want to use See Invis or True Seeing yourself, so it's prolly better not to invest too much in it. Still, if you can switch it on and off, an interesting idea.
Haven't really bothered about the Gear question, but certainly you should at some point get a Shadow Hand Discipline property on your primary weapon. Disci weapons are just awesome for any Martial Adept.


I think this build could get some powerful synergies out of concealment/dodge/AoO, and various Shadow Hand teleport-style tricks. The image of this cloaked knight emerging from the mist just gives me a kick.


Yeah, certainly does have its appeal. Shadow Blink is just made for the RKV. ;) However, for AoOs you have the Dex problem again. You need Combat Reflexes and then a large enough Dex mod to make it worthwhile.

Anyway, you can take the Shadowhand stance that gives you free concealment as first Swordsage stance, that's certainly right in the theme.

What stat generation method are you using? In my games we always use a 32PB, and I find it really difficult to determine the optimal distribution for an RKV.

[Red Fel]

In a bit of a hurry atm, so I'll keep it short:

Yes, but keep in mind it only works with Simple Weapons, so probably Heavy Mace or Longspear, depending on style. Also, this does nothing for damage, so you need other sources there, such as Power Attack, which again requires a min Str 13 regardless.

Oh, well. At least daggers are simple weapons.


Haven't really bothered about the Gear question, but certainly you should at some point get a Shadow Hand Discipline property on your primary weapon. Disci weapons are just awesome for any Martial Adept.

Oh, now that's a definite. And, as written, a weapon doesn't need to be of those associated with a discipline to get a Discipline enhancement (see the example, a +1 Stone Dragon Shadow Hand Greatsword). So that's definitely going in the notes.


What stat generation method are you using? In my games we always use a 32PB, and I find it really difficult to determine the optimal distribution for an RKV.

Right now, this is preparation-stage. Stat generation will be up to the DM once I can put this bad boy into a game.

[Firechanter]

Oh lest I forget:
Consider Travel Devotion -- basically one Turn attempt for Swift Action Movement for one full encounter. Use a Swift to pop up near an enemy, do a Full Attack, use DivImp and hop out with another Swift Action.

And yeah, Discipline property can be put on any weapon; never occured to me that it could be otherwise.

I'm still mulling over stat distribution and feats and stuff, but generally I'd say plan out the maneuvers and stances first, then see what feats go well with them.

Edit:
crap, I found another problem with the Crs/SS Mix. Somehow I was under the impression that Crs and SS levels would stack 1:1 for IL. Turns out that is only the case for PrC levels. So if you start CCl2/Crs1 and then SS1, your IL is only 2, not 3 which would qualify you for level 2 maneuvers. So you could only take a single level 2 maneuver at SS2.

Previously I only played characters with one Initiating class so that never came into play; now that I read up the multiclass rule again I have to find it rains on my parade.

[Red Fel]

Oh lest I forget:
Consider Travel Devotion -- basically one Turn attempt for Swift Action Movement for one full encounter. Use a Swift to pop up near an enemy, do a Full Attack, use DivImp and hop out with another Swift Action.

Good call. One question I had about Devotion feats: They can either be taken as a normal feat, or they can be acquired for free by swapping a corresponding Domain power, correct? In any event, mechanics-wise, Travel Devotion is pretty juicy, but I don't know how well it fits a cleric of Wee Jas. But it's a distinct possibility.

And here's what I have so far.

Class Distribution:
Cloistered Cleric 2/ Crusader 1/ Swordsage 2/ RKV 10/ ??

Maybe I'll go with my original idea of Contemplative for those last five levels. It would mean I end up with four (!) domains: Knowledge, Death, Magic, Law, and a CL of 15.

Race Options:
- Human: Bonus feat and skill points, very solid choice
- Zenythri: +1 LA, +2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +2 Balance, Darkvision, Resist Fire/Sonic/Elec 5, True Strike 1/day
- Rilkan: +0 LA, +2 Dex. -2 Str, Human (Reptilian), +1 Knowledge Checks, all Knowledge skills are class, +2 Bluff/Diplomacy, +1 Aid Another to Rilkans (Mostly for the "all knowledge skills are class skills" bonus; it would allow me to swap out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion without penalty)
- Githzerai: +2 LA, +6 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, Darkvision, +2 Power Points, PLAs per day, HD+5 Power Resistance
- Insectile Template: +1 LA, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 AC, Darkvision, Tremorsense, Wide Vision
- Dark Template: +1 LA, +10 Speed, Darkvision, Hide in Plain Sight (except in daylight), Resist Cold 10, Superior Low-Light Vision, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently (I could also get this template from an Umbral Collar)
- Shadow Template: +2 LA, Speed x1.5, Resist Cold 5+HD (max 15), Darkvision, Low-Light Vision, Total Concealment (except in daylight), choice of specials, +6 Move Silently
- Half-Fey Template: +2 LA, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, Flight=Speedx2, Good Maneuverability, SLAs per day, Low-Light Vision, Immunity to Enchantment
- Fey Bloodline, Major: 3 Levels, +1 Dex, +1 Wis, +1 Cha, +2 Hide/Move Silently/Perform/Bluff, Iron Will, Low-Light Vision, Alertness, SLAs per day, DR 5/cold iron, Bonus to interactions with Fey
- Genie Bloodline, Djinni, Intermediate: 2 Levels, +1 Dex, +1 Wis, +2 Concentration/Knowledge(Planes), +1 AC, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Resist Acid 5, Invisibility 1/day, Bonus to interactions with Djinn
- Genie Bloodline, Djinni, Major: 3 Levels, +1 Str, +1 Dex, +1 Wis, +2 Concentration/Knowledge(Planes)/Appraise/Sense Motive, +2 AC, Improved Initiative, Dodge, Immune to Acid, SLAs per day/week, Bonus to interactions with Djinn (I'm not convinced the Major is worth the extra level)

Feat Options:
- True Believer: +2 to one saving throw/day, allows you to use a deity's relics (Mostly for flavor, not sure how good it is)
- Knowledge Devotion: Gain one Knowledge skill as class skills, add Insight bonus to attacks based on corresponding Knowledge skill
- Travel Devotion: 1/day, for 1 minute, move up to speed as a swift action each round, spend Turn attempts for more uses (Assuming it fits flavor-wise, it's awesome)
- Power Attack: Bread and butter
- Extra Turning: Fuels RKV abilities
- Shadow Blade: When in Shadow Hand stance using Shadow Hand weapon, add Dex as bonus melee damage, prereq for Gloom Razor
- Gloom Razor: Enables Lingering Gloom (become invisible to enemies who miss due to concealment), Moving Shadows (when you damage an opponent and move 10 feet, that opponent is flat-footed to you), Shadow Slip (when you attack a flanked opponent and Tumble, move to any adjacent space without provoking attacks of opportunity)
- Undying Fate: Swift action Deathwatch-like ability, add False Life, Halt Undead, Blight and Finger of Death to spell list (This requires Cleric 3, but I could always try to get it house-ruled that RKV levels count)
- Divine Countermagic: Spend Turn attempts to counter spells
- Profane Aura: Spend Rebuke attempt to generate a 60-foot cloud of mist, centered on you, which grants concealment, total concealment at 5 feet, +2 deflection bonus to undead AC while in the mist (Seems to function like Obscuring Mist, but without some of the limitations and plus a bonus to undead, so I'm not sure)
- Breadth of Knowledge (Spelltouched): All Knowledge checks are trained, +1 on Knowledge checks if you have at least one point in them
- Life Leech (Spelltouched): Anybody within 30 feet, friend or foe, between -1 and -9 HP loses 1 HP at the start of your round, which you gain as temporary HP, cannot be suppressed
- Residual Rebound (Spelltouched): If you roll a natural 20 on your save against any spell (including touch spells), it rebounds on the caster

Maneuver Options:
- This will require some slight reworking, but goals include:
- Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink
- Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Cloak of Deception, Clever Positioning, White Raven Tactics, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Stalker in the Night
- Plus a bunch of level 1 stuff to fill the Crs/SS levels

Stances:
- Crs: Martial Spirit
- SS: Child of Shadow, Island of Blades
- RKV: Dance of the Spider, Step of the Dancing Moth

That's where I am so far. Thoughts?

[Firechanter]

Good call. One question I had about Devotion feats: They can either be taken as a normal feat, or they can be acquired for free by swapping a corresponding Domain power, correct?

Pretty much, except you trade them in for a whole _Domain_, not just the power, so you're losing all the extra spells. Travel domain has such sweet spells that I wouldn't trade it anyway, but just take the Feat separately.


Class Distribution:
Cloistered Cleric 2/ Crusader 1/ Swordsage 2/ RKV 10/ ??

Yeah you have a whole lot of options after finishing RKV. You could for instance, if you want to focus on your melee, just take one level in some Cleric-advancing class (to unlock level 6 spells), then proceed with SS and Crusader in whatever order you prefer.

FWIW, if you use PB, you might consider starting with no stat higher than 14 (before racial adjustments). So PB 32 for instance, 14/14/12/14/14/12; then put everything in Wis. Your spellcasting advances slow enough not to leave you short.
On the other hand, a well-pumped Wis may even make Save-allowing maneuvers and spells worthwhile, so it's not an easy call.


Race Options:

Personally I don't like LA+ races, and usually end up going Human. You just can't go wrong with that. For an RKV, a Lesser Aasimar would also be awesome, but I take it you want to go more into the "Dark" side so that may not be the most fitting choice.

As for templates, Dark is lovely but I'd only consider it if buyoff is allowed. Personally, I would prefer the item. 10K is a good price and 10 minutes per day is plenty; considering most encounters last less than a minute, and you normally have fewer than 10 encounters per day.


Feat Options:

- True Believer: I consider this pure flavour and wouldn't take it if I didn't have to.
+ Knowledge Devotion: take this for free with Cloistered Cleric. Note that between Cleric and SS, you have most of the important Knowledge skills already. Take K:Dungeoneering here and you have covered _everything_ that is associated with creature types.
+ Travel Devotion: yes
+ Power Attack: if you can spice up your attack bonus, yes.
+ Extra turning: I'd take this as often as possible.
o Shadow Blade: if your Dex mod is good enough, yes.
- Gloom Razor: personally I don't like the ToB TacFeats much; very convoluted application, overly situational and typically minor benefits.
o Undying Fate: well, I wouldn't take it, but sure there are worse choices.
- Divine Countermagic: I dunno, this will eat through your Turn attempts faster than a Humvee through a tank of gas; I'd rather keep a spell or two prepared.
- Profane Aura: in an Undead-heavy campaign maybe; but do _you_ see beyond 5 feet in that mist?
- Breadth of Knowledge (Spelltouched): nah. See below.
- Life Leech (Spelltouched): Heavens no! Super-situational and then likely to do more harm than good. Your friends won't be impressed.
o Residual Rebound (Spelltouched): if you absolutely can spare the feat, yes; but personally I'd rather take another Extra Turning instead. How likely is it that you roll a 20 on a Save when it _really makes a difference_?

Here are the feats I am pondering or will surely take, in addition to the ones marked with a + above:

+ Able Learner. (Must be human or changeling). This is awesome for multiclass characters. All important skills are class skills for all your levels, how much better can it get?
+ Adaptive Style: not as urgent for an RKV with DivRec as for a pure SS, but still very handy, and sometimes you may rather want to lose a round than a TU, not to mention you may need to swap out readied maneuvers now and then.
+ Intuitive Attack: if you have a limited Ability pool, and your Wis is significantly higher than your Str, and you are willing to go with a Simple weapon, such as Dagger or Spear. If your Str can be high enough, don't bother.
+ Practised Spellcaster: your CL is atrocious. Take this and don't look back.
+ Divine Vigor: increased movement and extra HP with good duration for a TU attempt; very good match for this concept.
o Spellcasting Prodigy: if you can afford it - basically this translates to 1-2 extra spell slots, so figure out if that's worth a feat to you. I usually take this on my primary casters, but this RKV build is not exactly a primary caster.

edit: Extra Granted Maneuver might also be a good idea.

Also, if you're going to take Law Domain, I sure as hell hope you're gonna swap that out for Law Devotion. =D The feat is awesome, the domain sorks.


Note: Keep in mind that SS2 gives you a free +1 To Hit with one set of discipline-associated weapons, so better pick your primary and backup weapons out of the same discipline list. For instance, I am thinking about going for Intuitive Attack with Spear and Light Mace - and all other feats marked with a + above.


Maneuver Options:

Haven't looked at these in detail, but some thoughts:

- Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink: I'd skip the Shadow Jaunt one; you don't have that many maneuver slots and its in-combat utility is very low. Personally I'd just wait and go straight for Blink.

- WRT is always awesome, especially if you can keep recovering it and giving your best damage-dealer two turns per round.

- Mountain Hammer: the Fighter's Lockpick. Everyone wants that. Might even consider going for Ancient Mountain Hammer at the end of the line.

- Counter Charge is a decent way to do exactly that. Being target of a Charge can be deadly.

- generally, I'd take at least one maneuver of every discipline I have access to, just in case I need it as prereq later on.

It's really a pity that the RKV doesn't get to swap out lowlevel maneuvers. You're essentially stuck with piles of lowlevel stuff. In these moments, I curse Mo9 to have so absurdly many crap feat tax prereqs, otherwise you might catch up with your maneuvers in endgame.


Stances:

I think I'm gonna go for:
Iron Guard's Glare
Child of Shadow
Island of Blades
Assassin's Stance _or_ Thicket of Blades
...no clear winner at 5th level stances; might just take the other 3rd level.

[Red Fel]

With regard to Races/Templates:

Yeah, I had Human as my primary on that one, too. The bonus feat and skill points were that valuable. And good call on Able Learner, definitely a bonus to going with Human. As for Dark, I agree, I'm probably better off with it as an item. There is a continuous version of the item, which basically gives a persisting template, so that's also an option.

With regard to Feats:

I agree with all of your + decisions. No question. I don't see much need for EGM, since I'll be getting most of my maneuvers in SS style, and can use Divine Recovery to pop any maneuver I need.

Spellcasting Prodigy... Has potential. But as you point out, I'm not focusing as much on my casting. I don't know whether I would exhaust my spells per day with this build. It also strikes me that Spellcasting Prodigy is more of a temporary low-level patch, as at higher levels it becomes easier to get items or other boosts that increase abilities or spells.

As for Undying Fate, I agree, it's more flavor than substance. The Deathwatch passive can be replicated, the spells are not vital. I'll have to think about it.

And yes, if I go with Law Domain, I'll go with Law Devotion. I agree completely.

With regard to Maneuvers:

Having gone over my original list, and taken into account that I don't count Crs and SS levels together when determining IL, I realized that for Crs 1 and SS 1 and 2, I could only take 1st-level maneuvers. That really rather stinks, because as you pointed out, RKV lacks the swap-out mechanic unless a DM is willing to house-rule it in.

For Crusader 1, I took Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones (needed something to get Mountain Hammer later), Leading the Attack, and Douse the Flames.

For Swordsage 1-2, I took Wind Stride (for mobility), Distracting Ember (for flank - this will set up a pattern, I'll explain later), Clinging Shadow Strike, Shadow Blade Technique, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw (for battlefield control), and Mountain Hammer.

For RKV 1-10, I took White Raven Tactics, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Flanking Maneuver (again with the flanking), Stalker in the Night, and Shadow Blink.

Here's what I realized: Originally, I was setting this build up to be sneaky-stabby-death, basically a rogue with medium-heavy armor and cleric spells. Then I realized that, between the maneuvers and the flavor, it might be more fitting to be an impromptu tactician and borderline field commander. So instead of just opting for concealment abilities, I've switched to battlefield control, mobility and flanking. The build should be better able to move around the field, and focus fire on individual targets. I think it's improved a lot.

With regard to Stances:

I went with all five of your suggestions. That said, I may have to go back and invest in Combat Reflexes to better use the AoOs from Thicket.

Other Notes:

I'm still wrestling with the last five levels. Contemplative definitely gives me more spellpew, and Law Devotion. I could reinvest in SS, get bonus to initiative, another discipline focus, sense magic, and +4 BAB, along with 6 maneuvers. I don't see a lot of potential from reinvesting in Crs, honestly, apart from the solid BAB gain, and at higher levels CC is basically just flat Cleric with more skill points and worse BAB. Similarly, Cleric seems to be a fine line between Contemplative and SS- better BAB, good spellpew, but no flashy bonus domains or special abilities.

I suppose it depends on flavor, but also whether a campaign even lasts beyond 15th level. But that, I think, is an inquiry for another time.

Thanks for the help. This has been an excellent learning experience for me.

[Firechanter]

With regard to Races/Templates:
Having gone over my original list, and taken into account that I don't count Crs and SS levels together when determining IL, I realized that for Crs 1 and SS 1 and 2, I could only take 1st-level maneuvers. That really rather stinks, because as you pointed out, RKV lacks the swap-out mechanic unless a DM is willing to house-rule it in.

Yeah, it's really rather weird too, and might be a candidate for errata if WotC had ever errataed the ToB, because the level stacking is so inconsistent. With PrCs you get to stack all MA classes, with Martial Study and Martial Stance you get to stack all MA classes; only with regular honest-to-john multiclassing you get to apply only half level.
As a DM, I would be totally willing to make the change and let all MA levels stack 1:1 if a player asked me for it (as I used to think was the case anyway).
With this as houserule, the build would certainly gain in utility, as you could prolly get about 4 level 2 maneuvers after filling prereqs.


Here's what I realized: Originally, I was setting this build up to be sneaky-stabby-death, basically a rogue with medium-heavy armor and cleric spells. Then I realized that, between the maneuvers and the flavor, it might be more fitting to be an impromptu tactician and borderline field commander.

Yes, Sneaky-Stabby-Death is a problem because your damage output probably won't be enough to oneshot things. It starts with the choice of weapon:
We can't use a shield if we want to get Wis-to-AC. We also are too feat-starved for TWF, and prolly can't get enough Dex for ITWF anyway. Also, Power Attack doesn't work with Light Weapons (so no Dagger for you). That leaves THF as the only reasonable choice (Setting Sun throws notwithstanding; we can always take one hand off a two-handed weapon).
Then it would be great if we could use the free Weapon Focus thing from SS1. So we should pick something from one of the Discipline lists.
Thirdly, if we want to use Intuitive Attack, this weapon needs to be Simple.
Normally I prefer Reach weapons, but the only Reach weapon on the lists is the Exotic Spiked Chain. Had to realize that "Spear" is different from "Longspear", what a nonsense.

So I'm kinda stuck here -- might swap out Intuitive Attack for EWP, but whether that makes sense depends on how well I can keep up with the Str score. Otherwise, no Reach for this baby, and we have to stick with Heavy Mace or Spear.


I went with all five of your suggestions. That said, I may have to go back and invest in Combat Reflexes to better use the AoOs from Thicket.


Good catch -- as I said, I normally use Reach weapons so Combat Reflexes is usually an automatic choice for me, without it the whole Thicket of Blades / Lockdown shtick doesn't really work, but of course you need good Dex too.

So either way, I'll look through the maneuver lists again and have a butcher's for Disabling stuff; I guess that would indeed go down well with this whole pop-and-hide thing.


Thanks for the help. This has been an excellent learning experience for me.

Hey, you're welcome. I've been wanting to fully flesh out a practical RKV build for a while, just never pulled it through. And funnily enough, when you look on the net for RKV help, all you find is "the RKV is awesome, he's got this and this special and I don't need to tell you how great that is", or the usual nonsense about infinite Swift Actions per turn.

[Red Fel]

We can't use a shield if we want to get Wis-to-AC.

Does that still work if it's an Animated shield? Animated would also allow THF, wouldn't it?


Then it would be great if we could use the free Weapon Focus thing from SS1. So we should pick something from one of the Discipline lists.

Thirdly, if we want to use Intuitive Attack, this weapon needs to be Simple.
Normally I prefer Reach weapons, but the only Reach weapon on the lists is the Exotic Spiked Chain. Had to realize that "Spear" is different from "Longspear", what a nonsense.

So I'm kinda stuck here -- might swap out Intuitive Attack for EWP, but whether that makes sense depends on how well I can keep up with the Str score. Otherwise, no Reach for this baby, and we have to stick with Heavy Mace or Spear.

Okay, so according to PHB 3.5, our choices for default reach weapons are glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips. Of those, spiked chain appears to be the only one that is associated with a discipline (Shadow Hand, appropriately enough). However, as an exotic weapon, it would require a proficiency. In other words, finding a discipline-associated reach weapon is a substantial investment.

As a side note, I could swap out a maneuver for Burning Brand (SS2, Desert Wind) which increases reach by 5, but converts damage into fire.


Hey, you're welcome. I've been wanting to fully flesh out a practical RKV build for a while, just never pulled it through. And funnily enough, when you look on the net for RKV help, all you find is "the RKV is awesome, he's got this and this special and I don't need to tell you how great that is", or the usual nonsense about infinite Swift Actions per turn.

Oh, I enjoy those posts. I find them very helpful. But I find that they're optimized around a particular build or style. For some classes, that makes sense - there are ways to play them "right," and ways to play them "dead." But the nice thing about ToB classes is that they're varied enough to play multiple ways. This exercise alone has shown me that RKV can function effectively in several roles, I'm simply finding the one I enjoy most.

Maybe I should make a habit of proposing specifically non-optimized flavor builds.

... Nah.

[Firechanter]

Does that still work if it's an Animated shield? Animated would also allow THF, wouldn't it?

The SRD says about Animated Shields, "A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency." -- so it's pretty clear to me that losing the Wis to AC bonus is another of those penalties.

Apart from that, yes, Animated Shields do allow THF; that's pretty much the point of them. But I must say I'm not a fan, the mental image is rather silly.


In other words, finding a discipline-associated reach weapon is a substantial investment.


...which then is incompatible with Wis-to-Attack, so odds are you're losing much more than you gain. The Free WF is really only worthwhile if you can use it without too much of a hassle. I've now looked at the numbers more closely and find that Intuitive Attack is just too good to pass up on if you want to do melee-y things.
So I need a Simple Weapon, and so I might just as well take one that benefits from the free WF. As much as I love the Spiked Chain, it's just not the weapon for a Cleric-based build. :/

I'm also considering Burning Brand, it's not bad and while Fire resistance is relatively common, many buggers are still vulnerable to it. So I guess it would be a reasonable choice.


This exercise alone has shown me that RKV can function effectively in several roles, I'm simply finding the one I enjoy most.


Yah it's pretty cool. Originally I saw the RKV as "Codzilla in a can", and with a Cleric-4 entry it can certainly fill that role. But since I am trying to balance my games around T3, something like a Turn-optimized DMM-Quicken RKV would be just too much. (And as a DM I don't want to be accused of preaching water and drinking wine.) So I decided to go for the less-casty, more-beaty adept-centric approach.

Oh by the way, concerning the final levels: occured to me that one has to be careful not to incur multiclass XP penalties. Just a little heads-up.

And I think I'll settle for stat distribution 14/12/12/14/15/12; allowing for Power Attack but sacrificing Combat Reflexes, for want of a Reach weapon. Regarding the spellcasting potential, that one point Wis bonus isn't going to make much of a difference. But not being able to take Power Attack would hurt more in the long run, I think. All level increases still go to Wis, as well as item priority.

Will have to look at the Domain choices again. Right now I'm thinking Magic (for the Domain Power) and Time (mainly for Haste. Improved Ini is okay but not crucial, would rather have something else).
For a cleric of Wee Jas, Undeath might also be fitting, and the extra feat is awesome, but the spells just don't point into the direction I want to go.

P.S.:
I just had a mean idea.
Imagine a party with _two_ RKVs. At least one with good Initiative. They could keep White Raven Tactic-ing each other and act X times before the enemy even gets out of flat-footed. At level 12 one can take Martial Study for Moment of Alacrity and settle the Ini order once and for all.
(Or if you go with the custserv ruling that you can WRT yourself, that would also work, but ofc you'd run out of Turn Attempts for DivRec sooner. And two characters can flank with each other.)

As I said in my first post, RKV really means Relativistic Kill Vehicle. =D

[Red Fel]

So I need a Simple Weapon, and so I might just as well take one that benefits from the free WF. As much as I love the Spiked Chain, it's just not the weapon for a Cleric-based build. :/

Well, once more unto the breach. Simple weapons include unarmed (gauntlet and unarmed strike), dagger (regular and punching), spiked gauntlet, mace (light and heavy), sickle, club, morningstar, shortspear, longspear (which is the only simple reach weapon), quarterstaff, spear, crossbow (light or heavy), dart, javelin, and sling. Of those, the discipline-associated weapons are unarmed (Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw), dagger (Shadow Hand), light mace (Desert Wind), heavy mace (Stone Dragon), shortspear (Diamond Mind), quarterstaff (Setting Sun), and spear (Desert Wind).

So, yeah. Unarmed is popular, and fitting, given that there was heavy flavor in ToB to make a legitimate monk. But somehow I don't think it will fit my build. Dagger is an excellent choice, both in terms of function and in terms of flavor, as it's the favored weapon of Wee Jas. Maces fit a cleric well also, but I don't see this character using much of Desert Wind or Stone Dragon. And quarterstaves are a bit too non-lethal for a murdercleric. Spears, similarly, are just strange for this build, flavorwise. (Seriously. Who uses a spear?)

Basically, the focus has conveniently narrowed back to the weapon that is (1) simple, (2) favored by Wee Jas clerics, and (3) associated with Shadow Hand, which is the source of the stabbity in this build. Seems like a pretty solid fit.


Yah it's pretty cool. Originally I saw the RKV as "Codzilla in a can", and with a Cleric-4 entry it can certainly fill that role. But since I am trying to balance my games around T3, something like a Turn-optimized DMM-Quicken RKV would be just too much. (And as a DM I don't want to be accused of preaching water and drinking wine.) So I decided to go for the less-casty, more-beaty adept-centric approach.

A-yup. While I don't like the idea of being utterly OP, it would be kinda sweet to have that CoDzilla moment of epic. But I agree, this build should be more melee- than caster-oriented. It fits the flavor, and more importantly, it fits the player's style.


Oh by the way, concerning the final levels: occured to me that one has to be careful not to incur multiclass XP penalties. Just a little heads-up.

Yeah. One of my chief beefs is the multiclass XP rule. I'm very happy with GMs who ignore this, or at least bend it if a player can justify dips.


Will have to look at the Domain choices again. Right now I'm thinking Magic (for the Domain Power) and Time (mainly for Haste. Improved Ini is okay but not crucial, would rather have something else).
For a cleric of Wee Jas, Undeath might also be fitting, and the extra feat is awesome, but the spells just don't point into the direction I want to go.

As I recall, the only domains a cleric can take are those associated with their deity, unless you take that Heresy feat that lets you move your alignment away and take any domains which aren't directly opposed. In PHB 3.5, Wee Jas has Death, Law and Magic. In Deities & Demigods, they added Vanity. And, as I recall, she has other domains elsewhere, including Domination, Inquisition, Mind and Repose. But they all tend to be the same general fit. I don't see Time fitting in there, but Undeath is a distinct possibility.

By instinct, and by flavor, I went with Death and Magic. I get Knowledge from CC, but that goes right into Knowledge Devotion. And if I go with Contemplative, I'll probably get Law and convert it into Law Devotion. And I'll probably take Travel Devotion as a feat, because Travel Devotion.


P.S.:
I just had a mean idea.
Imagine a party with _two_ RKVs. At least one with good Initiative. They could keep White Raven Tactic-ing each other and act X times before the enemy even gets out of flat-footed. At level 12 one can take Martial Study for Moment of Alacrity and settle the Ini order once and for all.
(Or if you go with the custserv ruling that you can WRT yourself, that would also work, but ofc you'd run out of Turn Attempts for DivRec sooner. And two characters can flank with each other.)

As I said in my first post, RKV really means Relativistic Kill Vehicle. =D

You're a horrible person, but I like you.

[Firechanter]

So, yeah. Unarmed is popular, and fitting, given that there was heavy flavor in ToB to make a legitimate monk. But somehow I don't think it will fit my build. Dagger is an excellent choice, both in terms of function and in terms of flavor, as it's the favored weapon of Wee Jas. Maces fit a cleric well also, but I don't see this character using much of Desert Wind or Stone Dragon. And quarterstaves are a bit too non-lethal for a murdercleric. Spears, similarly, are just strange for this build, flavorwise. (Seriously. Who uses a spear?)

Dagger has the one drawback that it is Light and thus won't work with Power Attack. Sure, you can still go that route and even save the feat on PA, but you're giving up a way to regulate your damage output.
Unarmed has the same problem, plus you can immediately burn that feat slot on Improved Unarmed Strike, for lethal damage and stuff. Personally I'm not a fan of unarmed.
I agree that Hv Maces are a better fit for the heavy-armoured classical tanky Cleric, flavour-wise, but they are the best option mechanically: Simple, One-Handed, can also be used two-handed, PA works, associated with a discipline you have at least one maneuver in (Mountain Hammer). Still, I'd like to avoid them because of the flavour thing.
As for Quarterstaff, I just don't like the 3.5 implementation as a double weapon. Conan RPG did it better, there the Staff is the "poor man's Spiked Chain" (except that game has no Spiked Chain), has poor damage but can strike Close and at Reach, while still being Simple. Too bad we don't have something like that in 3.5.
Spear is unusual, but I could imagine a "silent killer" type fighting with one; sort of like a Ninja with a Yari (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A-pKYS1Wm4o#t=74), why not? We don't mind two-handed, it is Simple, can use Power Attack.
Of course, _normally_ nobody uses a Spear, but here we might have found a niche where it actually makes sense.

We also need to look at when we're going to take Intuitive Attack. That of course depends on starting stats and how you distribute your wealth.
As a rule of thumb, I'd say it starts being worthwhile when the difference between Wis and Str mod is at least 2 points; definitely at 3 points. As long as it's just 1 point we have better things to spend our feats on.
So if we start with Str 13 / Wis 16, we can take the feat asap; if starting Str 14 / Wis 15 however we can delay it a long time, to level 12 or so.

So long story short, if I want Reach and not spend a feat on EWP, any Martial reach weapon will do in early game; later I can switch to Longspear; if Reach is not required, we can as well pick up any discipline-related non-light Martial weapon, and switch to a Simple weapon when the benefits warrant it.
Personally I am seriously considering going Longspear in the long run.
But it's all not really crucial, I guess. We can swap out weapons several times in early game and see what works best.


A-yup. While I don't like the idea of being utterly OP, it would be kinda sweet to have that CoDzilla moment of epic.

Yeah well, you still get some good buffs over the levels. Divine Favour is always a good boost. Divine Power doesn't make that much sense for you because your BAB is already high, but Righteous Might is a good "emergency switch", although you'll only qualify around level 14. Personally I prefer long-term buffs (hrs/level), however, especially when I don't have many spell slots.

Another thought:
Maybe we can also improve Sneak Attack without giving up anything else. Mostly there is some gear:
* Bracers of the Hunter (Secrets of Xendrik): +1d6 Sneak; +5 Hide (competence), +2 Initiative (competence), 8500GP. This seems to be the best deal (thanks, Eberron powercreep).
* Rogue's Vest (MIC): +1d6 Sneak, some minor boosts (which won't stack with the Bracers), 18.000GP -- way overpriced if you ask me; don't know what they were thinking.
* Mantle of the Predator (MIC): not Sneak Attack, but +1d6 damage when enemy is denied Dex bonus (so Flanking does not trigger it). 8000GP.
* Deadly Precision: comes in two sizes. MIC version: +1d6, +1 bonus; CAd version: +2d6, +2 bonus.

However, as for the weapon enhancements, these have to compare against Collision, which is a +2 bonus for +5 damage to _every_ hit against _every_ target, without the constraints of Sneak Attack.

Technically you could also devise a custom Legacy weapon with +3d6, but Legacy weapons suck and I wouldn't want to use one.

So all in all, the Bracers are the top pick; the Mantle would normally be too situational, but in conjunction with the Umbral Collar (HiPS) and our various maneuvers that actually deny Dex bonus, it may be worthwhile.


As I recall, the only domains a cleric can take are those associated with their deity

Yes, but seeing how so many new domains get added to the game, I've lost track of which deity gets which additional domains. I just thought Undeath might be fitting for Wee Jas, of you want to go the Rebuking route.
We play in a homebrew setting, with relatively few gods, who in turn each get a wider selection of Domains.

Death of course is not a very good domain, but if you want to go for flavour, why not.
By the way, consider adding in one or two Contemplative levels before you finish with RKV, so your Law Devotion comes online sooner.

Edit:
re Domain choice, back to square 1 :p I just was told (in Q&A thread) that Magic Domain power only applies to Cleric levels, not to PrC levels. Spending a whole Domain just to use 1st-level Wizard wands seems a bit inefficient to me. :/

[Red Fel]

Dagger... Maces... Spear...

I agree, the dagger makes sense on some fronts, but not others. Stealthy and cleric-y, sure, but when an enemy in medium or heavy armor charges at you, taking a swing at your head, you don't see a puny little knife in his hands. Doesn't work well, and it doesn't work with Power Attack, I agree.

I also agree on the mace. Too traditional, doesn't fit a stealthy-killer.

My problem with the spear is this. Even acknowledging that using it like a cross between a staff and a blade is admittedly cool, and that it suits various needs, it doesn't fit the disciplines. Shortspears are associated with Diamond Mind, regular spears with Desert Wind. SS uses both. RKV uses neither. Not to mention, this build focuses more on Shadow Hand and White Raven. So even acknowledging that the feats would fit, it would basically squander an advantage. At this point, might as well just use a sword of some kind.


We also need to look at when we're going to take Intuitive Attack.

I agree. First off, it seems like a toss-up between Intuitive Attack and Power Attack for a long time. I suppose that, later on, using a longspear with both will bring benefits. I also worry, however, that this build is getting dangerously MAD. Wis is obviously a prime stat; but it seems like I'll need Dex and Str in abundance as well.

I think this will take a lot more advance budgeting, in terms of stats and balance of feats. Ultimately, this is a build that would likely benefit more from martial weapons than from simple weapons, which means Intuitive Attack's utility only goes so far. By looking at reach and AoOs, we're probably going to have to focus more on Combat Reflexes and Dex. Power Attack is naturally mandatory.


Another thought: Sneak Attacks.

These are awesome gear points, but I think we're missing a key point. Sneak Attack is, for this build, icing, not cake. The goal is flavor, mixed with battlefield control and mobility. Sneak Attacks, while helpful and full of juicy synergy, aren't the goal.

And yes. Legacy Weapons disappoint me. That said, the Umbral Awn gives Invisibility at will. That's kind of obscene, and fits the character to a T.


Domains.

Yeah. The domains mostly disappoint me. But they are what they are. Some of the spells are nice. Mostly, the choices (Death and Magic) are there for flavor - they're the primary foci of the deity, and the character is really into that.

Because, you know, flavor.

[Firechanter]

Shortspears are associated with Diamond Mind, regular spears with Desert Wind. SS uses both. RKV uses neither. Not to mention, this build focuses more on Shadow Hand and White Raven. So even acknowledging that the feats would fit, it would basically squander an advantage.

Um. What advantage would that be? Most of the time, Discipline weapons are just flavour (as are the associated skills for many disciplines, for that matter). Out of the box, this build gives us nothing for using a Disci weapon, except for the free WFs from SS2. We can't afford enough Dex to make Shadow Blade worthwhile (unless you can get insane PB or rolls), and I'm not aware of anything White Raven does for its weapons.

The SS2 Group-WF can be unlocked by having any one maneuver from one Discipline. We can easily afford one such maneuver on SS1, be it Desert Wind, Diamond Mind or whatever. However, it has to be a _Swordsage_ Discipline, so White Raven is out anyway.

Basically it comes down to this choice:
* if we want Intuitive Attack and use the WF, it's Hv Mace, Spear or Shortspear.
* if we don't use Intuitive Attack, we might take for instance a Katana (and Diamond Mind has great stuff so nothing is wasted). If not that, it should be some other non-light weapon.
* but if we want a Reach weapon, we can take anything we want, none of them is a Discipline weapon so it makes no difference.
* Reach + Intuitive Attack only leaves Longspear.
* and for completeness' sake, Spiked Chain.


I also worry, however, that this build is getting dangerously MAD.
[...] By looking at reach and AoOs, we're probably going to have to focus more on Combat Reflexes and Dex. Power Attack is naturally mandatory.


Definitely. RKV is enormously MAD, especially if you want to exert some battlefield control. If you want both Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, you prolly can't afford any stat higher than 14. If you are struck with a less than generous Point Buy, you can only tank Int, which is a pity for Knowledge Devotion.
So you need at least Str 13 and Dex 13, and because odd numbers are always wasted points, better make that 14/14. Luckily, 14 Dex should be enough for a Control build; 3 AoOs per round should be enough for the beginning, and later on with some decent gear you can get 4 or 5.


Sneak Attack is, for this build, icing, not cake. The goal is flavor, mixed with battlefield control and mobility.


Oh, I thought you wanted Sneak Attack _for_ the flavour - you know, like, Sudden Death from the Darkness etc.

I'm a bit torn actually. On the one hand, this "Shadow Assassin" style is very appealing in flavour, but on the other hand, it feels like a bit of a sin to get early access to Thicket of Blades and not use it.
If you want Control, you need to complement Thicket of Blades with something, such as the Stand Still feat (deals no damage, but does its job much, much more reliably than Tripping). Might also want to take Defensive Rebuke - problem is where to fit it in, as it's also a 3rd level maneuver, just like White Raven Tactics.

By now, the mechanical objective of this character has changed enough to completely redo the feats again. We need to fit in Combat Reflexes and ideally Stand Still. On the other hand, we don't need Intuitive Attack anymore, and we can probably do without Adaptive Style and just rely on DivRec.

So we're looking at:

Able Learner (Human Bonus)
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Practised Spellcaster
Stand Still
Extra Turning
Travel Devotion
Divine Vigor

for use with a Martial Reach weapon, e.g. a Glaive or Yari. If you can wiggle in an extra feat early, maybe through a Flaw, EWP Spiked Chain might be worth it. The typical Flaw choice for Martial Adepts is Shaky (-2 to ranged attack, which you don't care about).

FWIW, we play with Pathfinder feat progression (but without Flaws), so one feat at every odd level, which relieves that pressure a bit.

As I said before, for such a setup you need an intitial stat array like 14/14/12/14/14/12, or better. This is a PB 32. Any less than that, and I probably wouldn't even bother trying to play this build. The low Con and Wis hurt enough already.


And yes. Legacy Weapons disappoint me. That said, the Umbral Awn gives Invisibility at will. That's kind of obscene, and fits the character to a T.


A common houserule fix to remedy the suckiness of Legacy mechanics is to just nix all the penalties. You pay the gold, that's enough.

Now for the maneuvers, again.
With this setup, we can afford only mediocre Wis, so I wouldn't take any maneuver allowing a Save. So let's see, what are the top picks of each maneuver level:

3: White Raven Tactics -- a no brainer
4: White Raven Strike or Covering Strike, are both great
5: Shadow Stride, I presume -- nothing else really sticks out
6: Order Forged from Chaos, I suppose
7: Shadow Blink, no contest.

Actually, on level 7 there are several nice things. Ancient Mountain Hammer is great damage for a Strike; the problem is to qualify for it. But we can consider that when we are through with RKV, if we add a few more SS levels.

[Red Fel]

Um. What advantage would that be?

The SS2 WF. As you noted, it can be applied to any one SS Discipline. However, it's basically a wasted advantage if I use any weapons other than those associated with that discipline. So, basically, that's my issue. That said, it is a free weapon focus on a group of weapons, so, valid.


Basically it comes down to this choice:
* if we want Intuitive Attack and use the WF, it's Hv Mace, Spear or Shortspear.
* if we don't use Intuitive Attack, we might take for instance a Katana (and Diamond Mind has great stuff so nothing is wasted). If not that, it should be some other non-light weapon.
* but if we want a Reach weapon, we can take anything we want, none of them is a Discipline weapon so it makes no difference.
* Reach + Intuitive Attack only leaves Longspear.
* and for completeness' sake, Spiked Chain.

Yup. But I think the logic is backwards, to some extent. If I want to use Reach weapons, abandon WF and (probably) Intuitive Attack, focus on Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. If I want to use flavor weapons, I'll probably end up undershooting, but I should use Intuitive Attack. And if I want to use Spiked Chain, EWF.

That's the bottom line. Relying on IA handicaps me in the long run.


STATS. Oh my gao the stats. Also Sneak Attack stuff.

Actually, looking back, it's funny how my "vision" for the flavor changed over the course of this interaction. Because you're right- originally, the sneaking and stealthing was precisely what I wanted. I was less interested in battlefield control, and more interested in mobility, concealment, and sneaky-stabbing.

Realizing how that limited me, and how I could do more with the build, caused me to change my perspective on the character's flavor. Perhaps amusingly, despite coming into this thread with the intent to prioritize flavor over optimization, I nonetheless gave into the latter's siren song.

I think what I need to do now- indeed, what the MAD and Sneak Attacks and weapon selection require me to do- is to re-evaluate the build's priorities. So let's review.

Option 1: RKV as Field Commander.

Intuitive Attack is out. Power Attack and Combat Reflexes are in. Focus on White Raven for action economy and battlefield control, with some Shadow Hand additional mobility. Reach weapons mandatory. Stats are Str and Dex, then Wis, then Con, then everything else.

Option 2: RKV as rogue-in-armor-with-spells.

Intuitive Attack is in. Focus on dagger use. Combat Reflexes is less necessary. Power Attack is valuable but less mandatory. Focus on spell use. Shadow Hand heavily. WRT because WRT. Stats are Wis and Dex, then Str, Int and Con, then sad little Cha.

Of the two options, the latter is closer to the original flavor. It requires more casting to make up for the melee weakness (it's a tiny freaking knife, for crying out loud), but it better fits the image of a shadowy knight appearing from the darkness and then OHMYGAO HE'S RIGHT BEHIND ME followed by death. As LN towards LE, it fits an alignment mold nicely.

On the other hand, the former has incredible versatility, functions well in a party or solo, is hard to pin down and approach, can buff and protect himself and others - in short, it's well-optimized. The question, however, is this: Is it special? It could be LG or LN, and it definitely comes across as a chivalrous and capable commander. But do you see a disciple of Wee Jas sharing like that? And I know the bonus to Hide is kind of tame, but the White Raven build barely touches it at all.

This is starting to get all circular, isn't it?

[Firechanter]

That said, it is a free weapon focus on a group of weapons, so, valid.

BTW, I wonder if the Warblade's Aptitude ability can be applied to this feature. ;) Anyway, those WFs might also be considered a trap, seeing how Reach is generally the superior fighting style. I mean, look at these boards. Whenever someone asks about skilling a beatstick, people tell him "Get a Glaive" (or Guisarme).


Option 1: RKV as Field Commander.

Pretty much what you say, except I'd still call stat priority for Wis - and if it only means that you put all your level boosts into it and upgrade your Wis item first. After all, you do have Cleric spellcasting, even if you're ~2 spell levels behind.

But yeah, as you can see in my previous post, this uses hardly anything from Shadow Hand anymore, not even the Stances. Essentially, you're a Crusader with some Cleric casting, weaker maneuvers and better action economy.


Option 2: RKV as rogue-in-armor-with-spells.

Yes, and the Shadow Hand maneuvers are generally weaker. Most of them allow saves, or are otherwise more limited than the Crusader stuff.
Also, you'll want Darkstalker as a feat, or a good deal of enemies will just ignore your stealthiness.


And I know the bonus to Hide is kind of tame, but the White Raven build barely touches it at all.

With this build the Hide bonus rather irrelevant, since at the level we get Armoured Stealth, we'll have a Mithral Breastplate or better anyway. So it's just 1 point of ACP we can ignore.

Still, even with the WR approach, we can use HiPS (from the Umbral Collar), move or swift-move to an enemy, do an unexpected Strike or Full Attack while setting us up for Flanking, or if it's not a good idea to stick around, swift-teleport out again.

A standard Crusader is typically less mobile, often has reduced Move rate b/c heavy armour, and so is more likely to set himself up as a bulwark at a choke point and have the battle flow around him.


This is starting to get all circular, isn't it?

Don't worry, I can relate. You outlined the two build options well, now you just need to decide which way to go. And I have the same problem. #2 is more flavourful and in-theme, but #1 is probably more effective.

Might as well start thinking about what spells to regularly use. ;)

[Red Fel]

BTW, I wonder if the Warblade's Aptitude ability can be applied to this feature. ;)

I've actually thought about that, but I think no, for two reasons. First, Weapon Aptitude applies explicitly to feats, while Discipline Focus says "gain the benefit of Weapon Focus," as opposed to "gain Weapon Focus as a bonus feat." Second, Weapon Aptitude applies to individual weapons, while Discipline Focus applies to a group of weapons.

Wouldn't it be nice, though?


Anyway, those WFs might also be considered a trap, seeing how Reach is generally the superior fighting style. I mean, look at these boards. Whenever someone asks about skilling a beatstick, people tell him "Get a Glaive" (or Guisarme).

Precisely. I mean, it's a nice thing to have, but unless it's for weapons I really plan to use and plan to supplement with other feats/bonuses/etc., it just doesn't seem worthwhile. I'm better off either (a) with dagger for reasons stated previously, or (b) with a reach weapon for reasons stated previously.


Pretty much what you say, except I'd still call stat priority for Wis - and if it only means that you put all your level boosts into it and upgrade your Wis item first. After all, you do have Cleric spellcasting, even if you're ~2 spell levels behind.

True. Either way, Wis is a priority. It's just a question of how many other priorities I have.


Still, even with the WR approach, we can use HiPS (from the Umbral Collar), move or swift-move to an enemy, do an unexpected Strike or Full Attack while setting us up for Flanking, or if it's not a good idea to stick around, swift-teleport out again.

A standard Crusader is typically less mobile, often has reduced Move rate b/c heavy armour, and so is more likely to set himself up as a bulwark at a choke point and have the battle flow around him.

This. This mobility is why the WR build is valid for this concept, even if the flavor changes. It's because he can still move around, still do his appear-behind-the-enemy shtick.


Don't worry, I can relate. You outlined the two build options well, now you just need to decide which way to go. And I have the same problem. #2 is more flavourful and in-theme, but #1 is probably more effective.

And this.


Might as well start thinking about what spells to regularly use. ;)

Oh my gao. There are those. So much planning.

[Firechanter]

Well, have you kept working in your build?

Just wanted to drop that you should really take Pride as one of your domains. It's arguably the best that Wee Jas has. The domain power is golden. Half of its spells are not on the Cleric list, and most of them are useful.

Several of the other Non-PHB domains of Wee Jas also seem better than the Core stuff, e.g. Domination and Inquisition.

Darkness is not officially on the list, but it does have some cool and thematic spells. Armour of Darkness (4) is a crazy deflection bonus with good duration and even has Darkvision rolled into it.

[Red Fel]

Well, have you kept working in your build?

Just wanted to drop that you should really take Pride as one of your domains. It's arguably the best that Wee Jas has. The domain power is golden. Half of its spells are not on the Cleric list, and most of them are useful.

Several of the other Non-PHB domains of Wee Jas also seem better than the Core stuff, e.g. Domination and Inquisition.

Darkness is not officially on the list, but it does have some cool and thematic spells. Armour of Darkness (4) is a crazy deflection bonus with good duration and even has Darkvision rolled into it.

Oh, I'm still poking at it, but spell selection has never been my strong suit.

You know, having never really played a caster, and all.

Also: Dang, that Pride domain is nice. Yeah, her non-core domains are pretty sick, but I'd have to consider the flavor implications thereof.

Still, zoinks. Lots to consider.

[Firechanter]

Did you see this collection by Giles the Cleric?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509

A compiled list of the best Cleric spells. Of course, as RKV, your priorities will change a little. As noted before, you don't really need Divine Power, as your BAB is nearly full anyway.

Having played various Clerics before, I have a preference for long-lasting buffs, ideally hour/level ones. Once battle is joined, you don't want to waste several rounds buffing up with short-terms, especially as this depletes your resources rather fast. Have a few short term buffs prepped for emergencies, but otherwise rely on stuff that lasts longer.

Of course you need to adapt to the situation at hand. If you're up against a Necromancer and/or Undead or other things that throw Negative Energy at you, Death Ward is priceless.

[Red Fel]

Did you see this collection by Giles the Cleric?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284509

A compiled list of the best Cleric spells. Of course, as RKV, your priorities will change a little. As noted before, you don't really need Divine Power, as your BAB is nearly full anyway.

Having played various Clerics before, I have a preference for long-lasting buffs, ideally hour/level ones. Once battle is joined, you don't want to waste several rounds buffing up with short-terms, especially as this depletes your resources rather fast. Have a few short term buffs prepped for emergencies, but otherwise rely on stuff that lasts longer.

Of course you need to adapt to the situation at hand. If you're up against a Necromancer and/or Undead or other things that throw Negative Energy at you, Death Ward is priceless.

Well, that raises a good question, doesn't it?

I can go with (a) buffs on the fly, (b) DMM Persist buffs, or (c) pewpewery. I am aware that the lattermost is frowned upon somewhat, but Cleric has a surprising number of spells which do not require material or experience components, conveniently limiting a combat caster to only verbal and such.

And I'm rather fond of the idea of not having to carry around a component pouch.

[Firechanter]

Well, DMM Persist goes nomnomnom on your feats and TU attempts, and imho your spellcasting is too far behind for any meaningful pewpewery (lovely word btw). For instance, while you could try to debuff enemies with Bestow Curse, the Save DC will be easy for many enemies around those levels, not to mention SR.

What exactly do you have in mind?

FWIW, I've played full Clerics before, and only on rather rare occasions were offensive spells really effective. Above all you really need to pay attention to target the weakest Save.

[Red Fel]

Well, DMM Persist goes nomnomnom on your feats and TU attempts, and imho your spellcasting is too far behind for any meaningful pewpewery (lovely word btw). For instance, while you could try to debuff enemies with Bestow Curse, the Save DC will be easy for many enemies around those levels, not to mention SR.

What exactly do you have in mind?

FWIW, I've played full Clerics before, and only on rather rare occasions were offensive spells really effective. Above all you really need to pay attention to target the weakest Save.

Well - and again, this is from somebody who has never played a caster - I figured that my level-0 spells are mostly garbage. At level 1 I would likely use Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, CLW, Deathwatch and Divine Favor. Level 2, Aid, CMW, IMW, Remove Paralysis and Lesser Restoration. 3rd, Bestow Curse, CSW, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Searing Light, and Speak with Dead is often useful. 4th, CCW, Death Ward, Divine Power to shore up any BAB holes, ICW, Poison, and Tongues for utility. 5th, Break Enchantment, Mass CLW/ILW, Righteous Might, and Slay Living, because murder. 6th, I'd go with Mass CMW/IMW, Harm, and Heal. 7th, Mass CSW/IMW, Destruction, and Dictum. Assuming I could get to 8th and 9th, I'd probably go with Antimagic Field, Mass CCW, Shield of Law, Greater Spell Immunity, Implosion, and maybe Summon Monster VIII.

I don't know how practical these spells are, but these are the ones that gave me that giggly "Somebody's going to hurt a lot" feeling.

Admittedly, this selection would probably change dramatically if I went for persisted buffing instead.

[Firechanter]

At level 1 I would likely use Bane, Bless, Cause Fear, CLW, Deathwatch and Divine Favor.
Level 2, Aid, CMW, IMW, Remove Paralysis and Lesser Restoration.
3rd, Bestow Curse, CSW, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Searing Light, and Speak with Dead is often useful.
4th, CCW, Death Ward, Divine Power to shore up any BAB holes, ICW, Poison, and Tongues for utility.
5th, Break Enchantment, Mass CLW/ILW, Righteous Might, and Slay Living, because murder.
6th, I'd go with Mass CMW/IMW, Harm, and Heal.
7th, Mass CSW/IMW, Destruction, and Dictum.
Assuming I could get to 8th and 9th, I'd probably go with Antimagic Field, Mass CCW, Shield of Law, Greater Spell Immunity, Implosion, and maybe Summon Monster VIII.

Don't discard your Orisons so easily, there is a lot of useful stuff there - like Detect Magic, but also Light, Create Water etc. You can leave some slots open there to prep on the go as you need them.
Note that this is a valid tactic also for higher level spell slots, particularly for the more situational stuff like Lesser Restore, Remove Paralysis etc.

Also, just don't prep Cure or Inflict spells, ever. That's not why you became a Cleric. As damage spells, they are pitiful, and as healing spells, they are a wasted slot.
Instead, buy wands of Lesser Vigor, which are the most cost-efficient healing items in the game (except maybe for reusable stuff like Healing Belts, but those have limited capacity and also take weeks to pay off).
Wands of CLW (or ILW) are the next best possibility -- only half as gold-efficient, but you don't have to wait around 10 rounds per use.

Level 1:
Protection from Alignment is awesome, and retains its utility well into the high levels.
Keep in mind Cause Fear only works on creatures with few HD.
Sanctuary can be a lifesaver. The Cleric's Invisibility.
At higher levels, Shield of Faith gets great bonuses.

Level 2:
At lower levels, don't forget your selection includes Bull's Strength (great combat buff), Owl's Wisdom (to improve DCs) and even Eagle's Splendour (2 free Turn Attempts, yay). Later on, these will eventually get obsolete as they don't stack with items.

Level 3:
Magic Vestment saves you a ton of money, Stone Shape has good utility, Wind Wall shuts down archers. Dispel Magic is extremely important, though.
(btw, also get a Ring of Counterspells and load it with Dispel Magic, or get a Spellbound weapon, which protects you from getting dispelled.). Invisibility Purge is situational, but sometimes extremely useful.

Level 4:
Greater Magic Weapon, for the same reason as Magic Vestment.
Dimensional Anchor, for when you are hunting down spellcasters and outsiders and don't want them to bolt.
Death Ward, definitely yes. Freedom of Movement, extremely important. Among other things, you become immune to Grapple, Improved Grab, also Slow, Paralysis etc. On high levels, you want to put a ring on it, er, put it on a ring.

Level 5:
Righteous Might is the best combat buff here. Plane Shift can be used both as utility and offensively. Spell Resistance. Stone Wall is so versatile it is silly; always a favourite.

Level 6:
Heal is finally a healing spell that's worth it. Find the Path negates those silly paper chases your DM throws at you. Wind Walk is the Cleric's Teleport. Heroes' Feast gives the entire party substantial buffs (but can be had as item, which is cheap if you split the cost).

So, yeah... that's just a quick rundown of the most important Core spells; splatbooks add lots of interesting stuff again.

And as I said, concerning all those offensive spells like Poison, Slay Living etc., take a look at the DCs you can put on them, and at the save bonuses your enemies get at those levels, then decide if the risk is worth it. I find that it mostly isn't.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, I have my list of 0th-level spells. They don't wow, but I acknowledge they have function.

Your suggestions are good, and make sense. Again, from my lack of experience, I have no way to evaluate them, but the reasoning appears sound.

I also acknowledge that offensive spells depend on saves, which could come back to bite me, whereas buffs merely depend on regular attacks - that is, a buff is only as effective as the character's newly buffed stats. And that's generally more reliable, I'll admit.

I dislike splatbooks, not because I disagree with the principle or due to some paranoia about power creep, but because I don't like having to hunt down "the" spells that a given class "must" have to be effective. But, yes. Your points are well taken.

So where does that leave me? Two alternate builds, with feat structures and maneuver goals, and a spell list. Apart from gear - which we've covered a good amount - what else is there?