[PF] Should the Erudite be Converted?

[HereBeMonsters]

I know they have an Erudite as a Psion Archetype or Variant or whatever it is called.

But I mean like the 3.5e Erudite, and potentially the StP Erudite.
Should that be converted over?
How would you convert it over to the Pathfinder setting which is typically a little stronger then 3.5?

[vasharanpaladin]

the 3.5e Erudite

Sure, go for it.


the StP Erudite

Needs to die in a fire, retroactively if at all possible.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well I never saw a problem with them.
But the whole 1 power a day at first level and so forth is difficult to handle at least for me who is used to playing a Bard and can cast a little bit.

And this is the fastest reply to any of my posts ever. *Hands a cookie*

[Psyren]

The Erudite's ability to learn powers is fueled by XP. Just remember that the general rule in PF is that anything that costed XP costs 5x as much gold instead and you're good to go. A good way to fluff it is needing to buy exotic incense that focuses your mind. Since you're never going to be doing it in combat anyway, it's not like a material component.

As far as the UPD, I would change it to the Ardent progression - 2 powers at 1st-level, then an additional power each level up to 21. Small enough to be a meaningful limit, but large enough that you can do different things each day.

Finally, if you want it to get things as it levels like the other PF classes, you can give it the Generalist Discipline abilities.

[Keneth]

Needs to die in a fire, retroactively if at all possible.

What he said.

[vasharanpaladin]

Well I never saw a problem with them.


Do please note that StP Erudite is T1, along with the wizard, cleric, druid, archivist and artificer.

T1 is the "breaks the game in half" tier. Strictly speaking, tiers are a matter of versatility; T4, for instance, can be summed up as "does one thing really well but sucks at everything else." T1 is, essentially "does everything that every class can do really well."

StP Erudite can learn every psionic power and every spell in the game. Full stop. If you don't see why this is a problem, see the above description of T1 ("does everything that every class can do really well") and consider that this means an StP Erudite can do everything that every T1 class can do.

[HereBeMonsters]

Yeah the XP Cost issue is gonna add up. Its 20 XP for each Erudite Level x5 So at lvl 1 it would be 100 Gold. At lvl two its 200 300 at lvl 3.

But I don't know if this is suppose to be for any spell at those Erudite levels or what? If I tried to learn a lvl 1 spell at lvl 4 do I need to pay 400 or 100 because its a level 1 spell at a level I should be getting lvl 2 powers or spells.

Edit:
How can they learn all POWERS and Spells when they cannot learn spells up to one level below their highest level (So they should be able to learn all 8th level spells but not 9th without going epic levels)

[Virdish]

Yeah the XP Cost issue is gonna add up. Its 20 XP for each Erudite Level x5 So at lvl 1 it would be 100 Gold. At lvl two its 200 300 at lvl 3.

But I don't know if this is suppose to be for any spell at those Erudite levels or what? If I tried to learn a lvl 1 spell at lvl 4 do I need to pay 400 or 100 because its a level 1 spell at a level I should be getting lvl 2 powers or spells.

Edit:
How can they learn all POWERS and Spells when they cannot learn spells up to one level below their highest level (So they should be able to learn all 8th level spells but not 9th without going epic levels)

To be exact they can learn all psion/wilder powers and up to 8th level discipline specific powers as well as 8th level arcane spells and even either 8th or 7th divine spells (divine only through cheese like southern magician and the like) they are powerful and there are things that they can pull off that are just crazy stupid (I'm looking at you mental pinnacle) they are extremely powerful but pathfinder converted the other tier ones, why not StP Erudite?

Edit: Also without cheesing your way out of the UPD limits they can only manifest 11 unique powers per day. Sure this is on the fly but still a mitigating factor. Now once you start using cheese to get away from that restrictions then things get ridiculous.

[HereBeMonsters]

I believe you mean the 99 powers at day at lvl 20, granted 11 of those are lvl 1 powers. In PF they might have 110 powers with 11 lvl 0 powers.

I was thinking if you added Psionic Talents (level 0 psionic powers) into the mix then the 1 a day UPD limit is not so insanely restrictive.

But yeah I read the passage and it does say Unique Power per level per day.

And yeah I know they have cheese to get divine spells. I always figured if say a Cleric took levels in Erudite then they should gain the ability defacto since.. well DUH.

[Virdish]

I believe you mean the 99 powers at day at lvl 20, granted 11 of those are lvl 1 powers. In PF they might have 110 powers with 11 lvl 0 powers.

I was thinking if you added Psionic Talents (level 0 psionic powers) into the mix then the 1 a day UPD limit is not so insanely restrictive.

But yeah I read the passage and it does say Unique Power per level per day.

And yeah I know they have cheese to get divine spells. I always figured if say a Cleric took levels in Erudite then they should gain the ability defacto since.. well DUH.

I've heard that argument before but if that is the RAW then there is a huge problem. I am sure that it is 11 a day since that mirrors the Wilder. It wouldn't make any sense to do 99... 99 is not even close to being a limit. I don't even think a wizard could ever use 99 unique spells in a day. The StP Erudite is powerful enough without that bit of dodgy RAW.

Edit: And a conversion could avoid that by being clearer on the RAW.

[erikun]

Erudites should really have only 21 unique powers per day at 20th level, starting with 2 UPD at 1st and increasing by +1 UPD each level. This gives them some limited versatility at 1st level and a good enough selection at higher levels, but not so many UPD that the restriction no longer matters.

StP Erudite should be left out and avoided at all cost. Besides the absolutely broken options it provides, magic spells are not designed to be converted into the psionic system this way and it causes all kinds of problems.

[HereBeMonsters]

Very True it should be more clear.
Either 11 Powers at lvl 20 which a Wizard can cast 40 spells per day (4 of each level) or the Sorcerer's 60 (6 of each)
So for a Psionic Wizard type character even 21 at the end is just over half as many as Wizard, with the added bonus of allowing you to potentially use all 11 lvl 9 powers instead of 4 9th level spells max.

[HereBeMonsters]

I am going to try giving them the same chart as Psion, The powers known becomes UP/D and the points are still the same as the Erudite (I need to go recheck 3.5 Psion but the PF psion uses the same PP chart as Erudite).
The Power Level chart is the same as the old Erudite chart.

So 3 powers to begin with and 36 powers per day at lvl 20

[Psyren]

I wouldn't make it the same as the Psion - if you do, there's no real reason to play a Psion because the Erudite is exactly as versatile day-to-day and much more versatile overall once you factor in the unlimited powers known. There is no meaningful decision to make there, all your psions would just be strictly better off as Erudites.

If you don't have access to the Ardent table, you can try using the Psywar table instead, which is a straight shot from 1-20. Slightly more restrictive but still better than the original (Wilder-esque) progression.

[Gavinfoxx]

My take on the erudite unique powers per day thing:

The actual limit of the number of 'locked' powers really depends on which version of the Erudite you are reading...

-The Complete Psionic gives the Erudite unique powers per day equal to 1+1/2 class level (rounded down) per level, This means a level 20 Erudite can manifest 99 unique powers a day, 11 per power level (!!!)

-A common claim of RAI is that the Erudite should have 1+1/2 class level unique powers per day, no matter the level.

-The Erudite from Dragon Magazine #319 version has this, where the first level you can manifest a new level power you can manifest one a day, the next two level you can manifest three a day, the next three you can manifest 3 a day and every level after that you can manifest 4 a day. (Exceptions being 8th level powers where you skip one level of manifesting only 2 a day and 9th level powers where every level from 17th to 20th increase the number you can manifest daily by one.)

-A common houserule (and my suggestion for how to do it) is:
1 per level 1-10, 1/2 level 11-20. leaves 15 at 20, and adds an extra +1 at 1. So, some example NET unique powers per day, which changes depending on how many class levels associated with Erudite you have. Thus, as a class level 1 erudite, you have 2 unique powers per day. As a level 5, you have 6, as a level 10, you have 11, as a level 15 you have 13, as a level 20 you have 16. This goes up with classes that advance Erudite manifesting, as normal, to a maximum of 16.

[HereBeMonsters]

I suppose your right, although as I said the PF Psion has taken the chart from Erudite in almost every way.

I will look into the charts again and see if I find any I like that flows well. I don't want to cut too much into the potential for utility powers and fun RP opportunities with a restriction that would force me to either learn nothing but utility powers or battle effective powers.

Now the issue I have with a 1 power a day at level one is.. your insane if your not casting force screen or inertia armor to give your weak AC a boost. And then you have wasted your 1 a day and now.. are just an observer to the battle. Maybe get a ranged weapon like a bow and use feats to max that out.. but then your just an archer and there are classes that do it better and easier then you having to sink 3 feats into damage opportunities.

EDIT: I dont like the Dragon Mag 1 and I have seen it on the PFSRD site. I think its too wonky to be any fun. So I get 4 temporary powers per day that still take up uses of my powers per day list. But I don't actually know those powers, I just cheat and pretend I do?

Its too.. clunky a mechanic, thats like making a Wizard know temporary spells rather then letting them learn new spells they just get 4 temporary spells and then the perma spells they get on level.

[Psyren]

Now the issue I have with a 1 power a day at level one is.. your insane if your not casting force screen or inertia armor to give your weak AC a boost.

Well, first off, that restriction forces you to be a bit smarter/more tactical with your power choice. If you only have 1 power you can use at low levels, most likely that power is going to be something that doubles as offense and defense - something like Entangling Ectoplasm, Grease, or Compression.

But second, I do agree that 1 power at 1st-level is too restrictive, particularly for non-Wilders who can't really power that up enough to 1-shot anything. Hence my primary suggestion for the Ardent progression of UPD (2-21).

But it should still be less than the Psion's 3-36, otherwise there is no reason to be a Psion.

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok so more then 1 less then 3 so that would be 2 powers at lvl 1. Ok so the Ardent progression is at least useful.

But is the restriction at endgame (lvl 20) reasonable even in comparison to the Psion I mean 21 powers compared to 36 when Psions don't really have caster level limits either.

EDIT: Should I Add Psionic Talents? Level 0 Powers?

[Big Fau]

Edit: Also without cheesing your way out of the UPD limits they can only manifest 11 unique powers per day. Sure this is on the fly but still a mitigating factor. Now once you start using cheese to get away from that restrictions then things get ridiculous.

Debatable. The three interpretations of the Erudite's UPD class feature have been mentioned numerous times, but here's the rundown:


11 UPD total. Ignores the rules text in favor of heavily nerfing the class, rendering it worse than the Wilder until 5th level.
11 UPD per power level, totaling 99 powers. Likely the original intent, and supported by RAW.
11 UPD per class level, totaling 220 UPD. Basically allows them to manifest every single power in the XPH/PF Psionics book. 99 powers was really powerful, but 220 means the UPD ability might as well not exist past 3rd level.

[Psyren]

There's no way 99 was the intent. That gives them more unique powers than a psion knows. It's pretty ridiculous.

Just throw out both the text and table and actually fix it.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well the issue seems to be people want the Erudite to be less powerful and versitile then the Psion as if Psion is the beat all end all of psionics.

Remember the Erudite is a Psion that learns powers differently then the Psion and has a stricter power set to start.

So what if they max out later on. The early levels like 1-5 are insanely difficult for a Psion to get through. And so what if they could potentially use 99 powers at lvl 20 if they don't bother to learn Massive amounts of powers whats the point?

If a Erudite learns 6-8 powers from each level does it really matter if they can cast 5-3 more powers if they don't have them?

The only way the Erudite is as OMG powerful is if the player works on it, spending Time, Money, and XP (At least in 3.5) to do so. So its not like they get it free of charge and no investment.

Edit: At lvl 5 A Psion knows 11 powers, a Erudite can cast 9 powers at lvl 5 using the original chart. Psions know 9 powers at 4th level. That is using the Unique powers per level per day. Otherwise its 3 powers a day compared to the psions 11

[Psyren]

Well the issue seems to be people want the Erudite to be less powerful and versitile then the Psion as if Psion is the beat all end all of psionics.

That's not it at all :smallannoyed:

Psions have limited powers known, but their powers per day are already equal to that number. A psion who knows 36 powers can manifest all of them with no restriction except his PP.

The Erudite meanwhile has an inherent advantage over the Psion already- unlimited powers known. If it has UPD equal to or greater than the Psion's powers per day, then there is no reason to be a Psion. They even fill the same niche - Int-based primary caster, all knowledges as class skills, bonus feats etc.

It's not about wanting the Psion to be the best. It's about wanting the choice between the two to actually mean something.

You may not care about that, and that's fine, it's your game. But it's terrible design, and you shouldn't try to say others are being unreasonable when they call you out on it.



So what if they max out later on. The early levels like 1-5 are insanely difficult for a Psion to get through.

If you really think that then you're just not playing your psions very well. They are capable at all levels. Even moreso than Wizards in fact, because they get Vigor and so can survive a shocking grasp or magic missile to the face (or an arrow to the knee) at level 1 instead of it being a toss-up. They can also wear leather armor with no penalty while the wizard can't. And I haven't even looked at discipline powers yet.



And so what if they could potentially use 99 powers at lvl 20 if they don't bother to learn Massive amounts of powers whats the point?

Psions are T2 with just 36. Give them more than that and they get to T1 easily.

Imagine if a wizard could spontaneously cast any 99 spells out of his spellbook that he wanted without preparing them. There would be no point to preparing spells at all. Terrible design.



The only way the Erudite is as OMG powerful is if the player works on it, spending Time, Money, and XP (At least in 3.5) to do so. So its not like they get it free of charge and no investment.

XP is a river and money is a joke. Time is the only real limit there, and any downtime you deny them is hurting the rest of the party too as you're keeping them from crafting, research etc.

[HereBeMonsters]

I am not saying your being unreasonable.
You want a difference and that is good but why is that only possible if you limit the UPD at lvl 20?

The argument becomes why be a Erudite when Psion is so superior in every way? Sure Erudite can learn more powers but if they can't use even half as many at lvl 20 when your suppose to be badass then why be an Erudite. Sure an Erudite might have a few rarer powers but Psions can literally throw a ton of powers out to meet a challenge when a Erudite needs to be sure they dont do that. They need to use powers sure but make sure they hold back slot in case something comes up.

So Psions can use more powers, use more freely and overall seem to be superior. Erudite learn more powers, use less powers, and cannot use them as freely at all without wasting slots which can and will get ya killed.

At level 1 a Psion would b*tchslap a Erudite hands down. If you picked the wrong power that day during RP or during a fight with a specific type of foe (Say your fighting something weak against fire so you use Energy Ray with the Fire energy type.) and then suddenly your fighting something immune to that type... you're screwed. You might as well run as far away as possible and hope you took feats with the bow.

Now yes XP and Gold are a joke.. but you learn 1 power every 8 hours if your doing the studying for it.

The way your talking make it seems like if a Psionic class had even 37 powers it would break the game open.

[Aracor]

Say your fighting something weak against fire so you use Energy Ray with the Fire energy type.

I'm just going to take exception to this. Energy Ray is the power. Just because you manifest it once with the fire descriptor, doesn't mean you can't manifest it a second time as cold, or electricity, or sonic. Where do you get the idea that it's quite THAT restricted?

[Psyren]

The argument becomes why be a Erudite when Psion is so superior in every way? Sure Erudite can learn more powers but if they can't use even half as many at lvl 20 when your suppose to be badass then why be an Erudite.

Because (a) you have the freedom to change up your repertoire every single day and (b) you can learn very useful discipline powers without needing to burn feats on them.

Need to track down a murderer? At level 7, the Erudite has Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions to scan the murder scene, Object Reading to scan the murder weapon, Divination to put the pieces of the puzzle together and Correspond to alert the authorities. Having located the killer, he can Escape Detection to hide himself until he gets close to the target, Astral Caravan to get close, Ectoplasmic Form to slip into their hideout and Psychoportive Shelter to hide once he gets there. And on the third day, he can launch his assault.

Very few psions can do all of the above. A Seer could do the detection bit, but would be pretty screwed when it came time to get to the enemy base and hide there. A Nomad could get there but wouldn't know where to go. And even if they did get there, they may have the wrong tools to actually win the fight.

Also, because no discipline is actually barred to an Erudite, he can use items containing discipline powers freely.



At level 1 a Psion would b*tchslap a Erudite hands down. If you picked the wrong power that day during RP or during a fight with a specific type of foe (Say your fighting something weak against fire so you use Energy Ray with the Fire energy type.) and then suddenly your fighting something immune to that type... you're screwed.

You can change energy types on the fly in psionics, so this is plain wrong. I think your opinion may stem from a misunderstanding of the system in general.

[HereBeMonsters]

Well its the wording that might be odd, It says you have to choose it when you gain psionic focus, only Kineticist gain the ability to change the energy type on demand. So I would have to expend my psionic focus to change it and with the Lock In style I wouldn't be sure my GM wouldn't make it a different slot for using a Fire type or an Electric type.

EDIT: Read the SRD for Pathfinder Psionics only the Kinetics can change energy types on demand. Other forms must expend Psionic Focus and then regain it picking a different type of energy so switching from Fire to Sonic or something is not instant anymore.

[Psyren]

Well its the wording that might be odd, It says you have to choose it when you gain psionic focus, only Kineticist gain the ability to change the energy type on demand.

Expending focus is a nonaction and regaining it is a move action (with PM). And since it's a move action, (a) you weren't using it to manifest anything anyway, and (b) once you switch to an energy type that gets through you have no reason to change it again. So this is a mountain out of a molehill.

[HereBeMonsters]

Perhaps but it was more the point of you needing to change from one to another and it still not being instantly there.

If their so powerful then what is a good balance?
You seem to think their uber powerful even without the StP version.

If their as powerful as you say then maybe the 1-11 is powerful enough. You seem to be suggesting they can do everything instantly.

[JusticeZero]

Flexibility is a huge advantage, and there would need to be a correspondingly impressive bite out of the ability to USE those powers taken for it to be balanced. The Psion, which is essentially the poster model of psionic might, has limited flexibility and good power. The Wilder is what you should be aiming to mirror; it has pathetic flexibility and awe-inspiring power with it. Your target for this to be a viable class should be to have vast amounts of versatility, but only to have a puny level of power to back it up. This isn't a helpless thing - they won't be blasting much, as the blasts will be anemic, but it doesn't prevent them from throwing around a lot of utility powers that do not NEED to be manifested at full power.

[Gavinfoxx]

If their as powerful as you say then maybe the 1-11 is powerful enough. You seem to be suggesting they can do everything instantly.

There's also making them fun to play, which is why I suggest the 2-16.

And there is really no way I can think of to balance the Erudite and the StP Erudite. Just let them be one of the most powerful classes ever invented, and let that happen.

[HereBeMonsters]

The 2-16 is fine with me but my problem comes with these
Do I use Psionic Talents or 0 Level powers.

If its total at lvl twenty 16 powers a day.. can that be viable without manifesting a power and then running to hide behind whatever meat shields you have with you.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If you go by what I believe is the RAW, which is Big Fau's second option (99 UPD at 20th), Erudites do have a significant versatility advantage. There are a few reasons, however, to stick with Psion:


Psion ACFs, like the Shaper's ability to manifest a particular Astral Construct as a swift action.
Low level superiority.
Psions can take significant levels in a psionic prestige class; if Erudites do, they can no longer manually add powers to their list.
XP/gold costs of learning new powers are non-negligible assuming you're not abusing thought bottles or the economy, respectively. Also it takes time.
If you are being cheesy then the Psion can get lots of powers known via Psychic Chiurgery or something similar.
An erudite is like the wizard to a psion's sorcerer. For the most part they're better, but there are cases where you'd prefer to be a Psion. I do agree that they should be fixed. I would (1) give them an ardent progression of UPD for all their powers, (2) eliminate the restriction on taking too many levels of other psionic classes, and (3) make the XP or gold cost instead proportional to the sum of all psionic classes taken.

[Psyren]

Do I use Psionic Talents or 0 Level powers.

It's really up to you. With 0 level powers they can learn them all eventually (like Wizards can with cantrips) but it won't really matter either way.



If its total at lvl twenty 16 powers a day.. can that be viable without manifesting a power and then running to hide behind whatever meat shields you have with you.

Sure.

[HereBeMonsters]

I will admit I probably will do Psionic Talents how a Psion gets them (3 talents) to start. Maybe use some of their list as talents as long as they have psionic focus and reduce the effect.

I do like the idea of the op as heck lvl 20 with 99 powers and rock away showing what a psion can do. But a limted power output makes more sense.

But you know survivability at low levels feels like it is gonna be an issue.

[JusticeZero]

Quit thinking in terms of direct damage and armor. I saw mention of how the first power on the list should be force screen or some such thing. That wouldn't be my first choice. Something like Entangling Ectoplasm, Telepathic Lash, or Slumber would be. Maybe even Skate.

[Psyren]

But you know survivability at low levels feels like it is gonna be an issue.

If you know what you're doing it won't. Or at least, you won't be any worse off than a Wizard.

Heck, PF Psions get Sleep and Entangle now, giving you even more viable low-level options.

And Psions already had Color Spray (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/d/disable) and Grease (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/ectoplasmic-sheen), so you've pretty much got all the low level staples.

[Gavinfoxx]

If its total at lvl twenty 16 powers a day..

That's 16 unique powers a day. If you have an infinite source of power points, that's still an infinite number of powers (okay, limited by actions) that you can manifest. I mean, really, how many times do you actually manifest more than 16 DIFFERENT powers a day? Allowing for the same power to be manifest multiple times?

[Psyren]

That's 16 unique powers a day. If you have an infinite sours of power points, that's still an infinite number of powers (okay, limited by actions) that you can manifest. I mean, really, how many times do you actually manifest more than 16 DIFFERENT powers a day? Allowing for the same power to be manifest multiple times?

This is what I seriously don't understand about the "99" folks.

[HereBeMonsters]

Very true I forgot about Slumber and what not.

I am just saying I worry about it, I am in a group current who are all spellcasters of one sort or another and we have had issues of near deaths already even with Armor being 17-20.

But I will give this a shot to play test either the 2-16 or the Ardent progression.

Edit: I think its about the feel of power, I can cast 99 powers.. not that I can or will but its still a big thrill to say it.

[Gavinfoxx]

But I will give this a shot to play test either the 2-16 or the Ardent progression.

Edit: I think its about the feel of power, I can cast 99 powers.. not that I can or will but its still a big thrill to say it.

16 is enough. Trust us!

[HereBeMonsters]

I know, just that feels like a choker you know. Compared to the 36 of a Psion who can cast like a Sorcerer, why don't we limit Wizards to 15 spells at lvl 20. Its the same thing.

[Psyren]

I know, just that feels like a choker you know. Compared to the 36 of a Psion who can cast like a Sorcerer, why don't we limit Wizards to 15 spells at lvl 20. Its the same thing.

It's not. Sure, Wizards can use every one of their 49 (base) slots to prepare a different spell, but if they do they can only cast each one once. You meanwhile, once a power is locked into your UPD, can spam it for as long as you have PP remaining to manifest it.

[HereBeMonsters]

That is true but that is all. If you manifest Far Hand for RP purposes or puzzle solving purposes. It is locked in and of course you can spam it but how helpful is it in Combat to lift 5 pounds?

Even an offensive power like Entangling Ectoplasm has limited usefulness outside of combat.

[re_e]

Do I use Psionic Talents or 0 Level powers.

Use the erudite disciple talents (www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psion/psionic-disciplines/generalist/erudite).

[HereBeMonsters]

I think I am gonna go with the Ardent listing, its easier to show a GM then explain a chart out in practice. I will also explain the 100 gold per Erudite level to learn a power, and if I do do StP maybe double the cost to learn a power. I am not sure I doubt I will do it.

One of the previous posters (GoodbyeSoberDay) is correct in that you either multi class into a non-psionic class, or watch your Erudite level like a hawk because you cannot take more levels of a psionic class then you have Erudite or you lose the power learning method and can only add powers via level up.

[erikun]

Edit: I think its about the feel of power, I can cast 99 powers.. not that I can or will but its still a big thrill to say it.
Then it sounds like you want to be a Psion who eventually learns Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm), and adds all the powers to his own knowledge. Fairly high-level and XP-expensive trick, but then again, you're talking about a 20th level Erudite who has spent XP to gain half the powers in the book in order to use 99 distinct powers each day.


One of the previous posters (GoodbyeSoberDay) is correct in that you either multi class into a non-psionic class, or watch your Erudite level like a hawk because you cannot take more levels of a psionic class then you have Erudite or you lose the power learning method and can only add powers via level up.
If you're going to be re-writing the class anyways for Pathfinder, I'd personally kick this rule out as well. I don't see what purpose it serves at all.

[DMVerdandi]

I would make the official UPP Per day 2+1 per level. It is quite nice. Works well.

As for the spell to power variant, I would have both an arcane and a divine version. Rather than retaining the ability to cast psion powers as well, in my version, the Erudite would have his main casting list become that of either the sorc/wiz, or cleric list, with the ability to get spells up to level 8 from other arcane/divine classes.

To alleviate mess, all spell-powers would automatically scale by level, rather than be augmentative.

[erikun]

To alleviate mess, all spell-powers would automatically scale by level, rather than be augmentative.
The real problem with spell-to-power is that spells are vastly more useful than powers in a majority of cases, with damage-dealing probably being the lone exception. Even comparing core spellcasting to "core" manifesting, you still have an enormous amount of battlefield control, save-or-suck, immunities, and Summon Monster that psionics just cannot match. And that's not even noting the broken spells, like Planar Binding and Forcecage.

I'm not sure that a "Wizard Erudite" would be that much worse than a standard wizard, but the lack of auto-scaling damage is certainly not the worst problem with the idea.

[HereBeMonsters]

The Cleric knows all of their level powers and is only limited by the number of slots they can use. Why not use that idea for the Erudite?

For example a lvl 1 Erudite would know all lvl 1 powers from Astral Traveler to Vigor but he has say 1 or 2 UPD to use them. Rather then be required to learn all the powers from lvl 1 he immediately had access to them but that he has limited slots to use them in each day.

So at lvl 20 he would have 11-16 powers per day (per level?) but he would not have needed to search the globe to learn all those powers just has to be sure he does not use up all his slots per day if he might need them later.

Maybe even give him a spell caster style progression chart for each level say 6 powers per level by lvl 20 So thats 6x9 compared to the clerics 4+1x9

[erikun]

That would be ridiculously powerful. Unless you limit the number of known powers to the point where the Erudite can hardly do anything - which would just not be fun to play - you'll end up with a class that simply "meditates" and sets up the best powers at the beginning of each day.

I have no idea why you're trying to give the Erudite some absurd number of "prepared" powers like 54. :smallconfused: That's almost twenty more powers that the Psion even knows by default, and your Erudite has the ability to swap out those powers for anything else they want the next day.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Very True it should be more clear.
Either 11 Powers at lvl 20 which a Wizard can cast 40 spells per day (4 of each level) or the Sorcerer's 60 (6 of each)
So for a Psionic Wizard type character even 21 at the end is just over half as many as Wizard, with the added bonus of allowing you to potentially use all 11 lvl 9 powers instead of 4 9th level spells max.To be technically correct, Wizards and Sorcerers can cast an infinite number of spells per day in Pathfinder, but ignoring 0th level spells the numbers would be 36 and 54.

[Maginomicon]

Consider the following house rule I have for erudites, which is inspired by the Epic Erudite description and the rare Complete Psionic errata (both of which limit it in the way described below).


The erudite was updated in errata to where instead of having a limit on unique powers per level per day, it was changed to unique powers per day period, which all but cripples the erudite class. For that reason and others, certain very specific things should not count against that unique powers per day limit.

Realize that according to RAW for all of psionics, all of the power points spent on a power (both for the initial manifesting cost and the augmentation cost) has to all come from the same source. The new general rule for unique powers per day is this:

If and only if the erudite uses his own personal power points in the initial manifesting cost of manifesting a power and that power is only accessible from his erudite power list does it count against his unique powers per day limit.
This parallels the single-source rule mentioned above and how spell slots between different spellcasting classes don’t overlap (the unique powers per day limitation is similar in basic concept to spell slots).

The following are descriptions of a few things this general rule excludes:

Effects which don’t in-fact draw from his erudite abilities don’t count towards an erudite’s unique powers per day limit. This also includes powers accessed through the “Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known” rules.

Powers that are manifested from a separate power point pool (such as a cognizance crystal) and powers which don’t draw from a power point pool at all (such as spell-to-power cantrips) don’t count towards an erudite’s unique powers per day limit.

An erudite that takes levels in the Metamind prestige class does not apply new powers used with the “Free Manifesting” ability as counting towards an erudite’s unique powers per day limit (just like it wouldn’t be the case if he also had levels in Wilder and the power known was from that list), as their initial manifesting cost is “free”. Likewise, powers accessed during a “Font of Power” don’t count towards an erudite’s unique powers per day limit (since the power points from Font of Power come from an infinite but separate supply of power points).

[HereBeMonsters]

Ok I like the psion class but why is it if the Erudite is not crippled beyond useage that people complain that it is more powerful then the psion. Aren't Wizards considered at endgame to be technically more powerful then the sorcerer for the same reason?

Cant the cleric at lvl 20 just meditate or whatever and set up the best spells from each level into each of his slots?

All the cleric idea was about was removing the need to play 'Catch'em All' with Psion/Wilder list powers that the Erudite would simply have access to them but be limited in how many powers he manifests daily to a small pool

How is having someone at lvl 20 who can use no more then 11 powers period omega level powerful? Yes they can now manifest those powers endlessly till they run out of points but there are limited lvl 8 and 9 powers they have 7 and 8 powers costing between 15 and 17 points unaugmented. Now yes if I spamed a lvl 1 Energy Ray and threw 20 extra points I would be dealing 20d6s at something but thats hardly end of the world damage levels.

So explain to me why the Erudite has to be unplayable just to keep the psion class useful?

I do like the house rule, I will likely invest in using that

[Maginomicon]

Ok I like the psion class but why is it if the Erudite is not crippled beyond useage that people complain that it is more powerful then the psion. Aren't Wizards considered at endgame to be technically more powerful then the sorcerer for the same reason?

Cant the cleric at lvl 20 just meditate or whatever and set up the best spells from each level into each of his slots?

All the cleric idea was about was removing the need to play 'Catch'em All' with Psion/Wilder list powers that the Erudite would simply have access to them but be limited in how many powers he manifests daily to a small pool

How is having someone at lvl 20 who can use no more then 11 powers period omega level powerful? Yes they can now manifest those powers endlessly till they run out of points but there are limited lvl 8 and 9 powers they have 7 and 8 powers costing between 15 and 17 points unaugmented. Now yes if I spamed a lvl 1 Energy Ray and threw 20 extra points I would be dealing 20d6s at something but thats hardly end of the world damage levels.

So explain to me why the Erudite has to be unplayable just to keep the psion class useful?

I do like the house rule, I will likely invest in using that
Many people don't recognize the validity of the erudite nerf I mentioned. Without that nerf, it has a very large number of unique powers per day.

As for the rest of your concerns, read why each class is in its tier. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5256)

[HereBeMonsters]

That it does it can cast 11 lvl 8 powers when only 7 exist on the list without discipline powers.

But again the Wizard and Cleric are powerful beyond belief atlvl 20 so why are we not talking about reducing them to half spells at lvl 20 or otherwise crippling them further then their spell slots?

Virtually every argument brought up has to do with 'Well then it makes the psion class useless' in there somewhere or 'Its got a large number of powers to cast that you might have spent time and money and XP on to learn'

So if I took an Erudite to 20... I am suppose to be punished for the time and effort I put into the class?

I would understand this if it was at lvl 5 I could cast 20 powers per day or something but that is not the case. How many Campaigns go to 20? How long is it gonna take for the Erudite to master all these powers? Unless your GM lets you say your mastering spells 'off screen' then to learn these powers you might have to sit back in town while your party goes off and does the mission meaning your losing XP and not gaining any.

So where is this insane unbalance at?

[Maginomicon]

That it does it can cast 11 lvl 8 powers when only 7 exist on the list without discipline powers.

But again the Wizard and Cleric are powerful beyond belief atlvl 20 so why are we not talking about reducing them to half spells at lvl 20 or otherwise crippling them further then their spell slots?

Virtually every argument brought up has to do with 'Well then it makes the psion class useless' in there somewhere or 'Its got a large number of powers to cast that you might have spent time and money and XP on to learn'

So if I took an Erudite to 20... I am suppose to be punished for the time and effort I put into the class?

I would understand this if it was at lvl 5 I could cast 20 powers per day or something but that is not the case. How many Campaigns go to 20? How long is it gonna take for the Erudite to master all these powers? Unless your GM lets you say your mastering spells 'off screen' then to learn these powers you might have to sit back in town while your party goes off and does the mission meaning your losing XP and not gaining any.

So where is this insane unbalance at?
The imbalance, at a base level, lies in the fact that power points are not spell slots. Even the Versatile Spellcaster feat doesn't begin to approach how much versatility a power point pool gives you. Generally-speaking a spellcaster is loathe to spend a higher-level slot on a spell unless it's for metamagic, but to a psionic character this is no big deal (and metapsionics works differently anyway).

Once you get into actual optimization, the erudite (particularly the StP erudite) is more versatile in-general than several of the other "tier 1" classes (it's still not as good as say a Psionic Artificer at "tier 0", but I digress). The basic gist of it is that everything comes down to how much "fun potential" so-to-speak that each class allows. Fun potential is debated based on how often the class has to sit on their hands during a given encounter. The higher tier your class is, the less likely you're going to not have a solution to a given encounter. To put it another way, the "tier 1" (and "tier 0") classes are essentially-omniscient in the context of having solutions to encounters.

[Psyren]

Ok I like the psion class but why is it if the Erudite is not crippled beyond useage that people complain that it is more powerful then the psion.

Look, clearly you don't care about rendering the psion obsolete with your "conversion" so just do what you want to do. No amount of forumites smashing our heads into a brick wall is going to convince you that infinite powers known and UPD >= a Psion's repertoire is a bad thing so this discussion is pointless. Make your Erudite with 99 UPD, play it and have fun.

[HereBeMonsters]

But that is also with effort and time. Its not like a lvl 1 Wizard, Erudite, Artificer can end the world when they roll out of bed for that first encounter. They have to pay sometimes YEARS worth of effort all to be told they are too powerful and are ruining he game?

If the argument is that Tier 1 is too strong then why not outright ban all tier 1 or 0 classes. The argument is still that their too powerful.

If you play an Erudite and dont spam searching out every power out there then at lvl 20 yeah you can spam a few powers but your hardly end of the world powerful compared to a Wizard or Druid or any other Tier 1.

a Psion at lvl 20 has the same power points an Erudite does and it casts those on a whim but knows less spells but it can continue to cast the same power over and over as long as it has power points to fuel them.
An Erudite knows more powers if used correctly and has spent hours at the table playing out this search for knowledge but should be weaker because.. the effort should not pay off?

Why would I invest potentially months to years of my RL to play a class that any noob can pick up at lvl 20 build and be far stronger then?

Wizards and Erudites take time and effort to build, and especially knowledge to make powerful.

The issue I have with several posts here is it seems that at lvl 20 as an Erudite I should be punished for putting forth the effort

[Psyren]

The issue I have with several posts here is it seems that at lvl 20 as an Erudite I should be punished for putting forth the effort

21 UPD is not a "punishment."

But again, if you feel like it is, it's your homebrew. You asked for opinions and people are giving them to you, if you don't want opinions anymore just ask for the thread to be closed.

[erikun]

The problem you run into is the "weak at low level, strong at high level" policy doesn't work very well in RPGs. It's the principle that pre-3e wizards followed, and it didn't really work as a "balancing factor" then either. The issue was that games rarely ran levels 1-20 with the same character, so running through levels 1-5 with the "weak at low level" class made the character feel useless, while running through levels 15-20 with anything but the "strong at high level" seemed pointless.

Plus, characters die and are replaced. You could easily create a 20th level Erudite, not by playing through levels 1-19, but by having a 20th level character die and making an Erudite for their next one. I mean, consider one of your last comments:

Why would I invest potentially months to years of my RL to play a class that any noob can pick up at lvl 20 build and be far stronger then?
I can't honestly tell if you're talking about playing a Psion or an Erudite with this comment out of context. Any noob sitting down at the table can roll up a level 20 Erudite, and with your method, they get 99 UPD and full access to their entire power list. Making the Erudite stronger than the Psion doesn't somehow prevent new players from picking and using the class.

Also, as pointed out by others, 2 UPD at 1st level is not a "punishment." Other classes that get only 2 unique spells per day at 1st level: Sorcerer, Wizard, and Druid. Two of the most powerful T1 classes and the best T2 class.

1
That said, as Psyren mentioned, the point of commenting here is to make my opinions and observations known. If you want to run an Erudite with 99 UPD, go right ahead. If you find that fun, that's great!

But if you're going to ask my opinion if that is fair or balanced or enjoyable when compared to a Psion, then I'm going to give my opinion on it.

[HereBeMonsters]

I am aware and my point was more still have the limited UPD not the 99 powers but have the whole power list as an option but still being restricted to 1-11 or 2-16 powers lvl 1-20

I am taking the advice here as useful information. I do see why I was merely pointing out many arguments seemed to be thatt he Erudite needed to be kept restricted in comparison to the psion

When I play a psion I use a lot of my PP on RP purposes or out of combat game play such as getting the party better deals using attract on an object, or make someone want to sell something using Adversion to an object so their more prone to make better deals.

With too limited upd it really is a RP punishment as I wouldnt be able to play that even though I tend to play the scholarly type player who is Book smart and is learning how to deal in the real world.