Is mountain climbing impossible in D&D?

[Jon_Dahl]

As a DM, I like environmental challenges. On a few occasions I have put the PCs on mountains, and it seems that whenever there is climbing involved, it ends up badly or in some lackluster approach.

In the previous session, the PCs were supposed visit a gold dragon who lived in high mountains. They had lots of advance warning about this, including a short break between sessions. They were aware that the mountains were difficult and enormous.

So they walked up the mountain path, fought some monsters and came to a rock wall. They immediately turned back, slept over the night, tried to walk back and this time they were soundly defeated by monsters. I admit that the monsters were unusually difficult the second time, because I was so passive-aggressively pissed off that these mid-level character had absolutely NO IDEA what to do about a rock wall, which is a classical element in mountains. They had no appropriate gear, no spells prepared, nothing.

The characters were very strong fighter-type (Str 18), cleric, sorcerer and a multiclass cleric/psychic warrior. All were at 6th to 7th level.

So let me ask you:
Is mountain climbing simply too difficult in D&D? And climbing in general? Have you noticed that your players commit seppuku when their characters are asked to climb?

[Crake]

As a DM, I like environmental challenges. On a few occasions I have put the PCs on mountains, and it seems that whenever there is climbing involved, it ends up badly or in some lackluster approach.

In the previous session, the PCs were supposed visit a gold dragon who lived in high mountains. They had lots of advance warning about this, including a short break between sessions. They were aware that the mountains were difficult and enormous.

So they walked up the mountain path, fought some monsters and came to a rock wall. They immediately turned back, slept over the night, tried to walk back and this time they were soundly defeated by monsters. I admit that the monsters were unusually difficult the second time, because I was so passive-aggressively pissed off that these mid-level character had absolutely NO IDEA what to do about a rock wall, which is a classical element in mountains. They had no appropriate gear, no spells prepared, nothing.

The characters were very strong fighter-type (Str 18), cleric, sorcerer and a multiclass cleric/psychic warrior. All were at 6th to 7th level.

So let me ask you:
Is mountain climbing simply too difficult in D&D? And climbing in general? Have you noticed that your players commit seppuku when their characters are asked to climb?

No, whenever my players go into a mountainous region, they always prepare appropriate spells and pick up climbing gear. Sounds like your players are either new or just want their hand held with everything

[Curmudgeon]

Your players are idiots. The DC for "a surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging" is only 10, and you can take 10 out of combat. A Climber's Kit gives +2 to your check.

Some accommodations should be made, naturally. Armor needs to be stripped off and stowed to avoid the ACP. Clerics have all sorts of spells to boost skill checks for those more difficult pitches. For really tough ascents a spell like Spider Climb on one character, with a knotted rope, will get everyone else to just a DC 5 situation.

As I said, your players are idiots. In real life, Boy Scouts overcome such challenges.

[Rabidmuskrat]

It seems to me like you prepared "mountain climb" while your players thought "mountain hike". Maybe they never considered climbing the sheer rock face. I mean, what would have happened if they had attempted to climb anywhere else but that specific rock wall? And were there any indications that this particular rock wall was anything other than a dead end?

[Jon_Dahl]

Your players are idiots. The DC for "a surface with ledges to hold on to and stand on, such as a very rough wall or a ship’s rigging" is only 10, and you can take 10 out of combat. A Climber's Kit gives +2 to your check.

Some accommodations should be made, naturally. Armor needs to be stripped off and stowed to avoid the ACP. Clerics have all sorts of spells to boost skill checks for those more difficult pitches. For really tough ascents a spell like Spider Climb on one character, with a knotted rope, will get everyone else to just a DC 5 situation.

As I said, your players are idiots. In real life, Boy Scouts overcome such challenges.

Thank you Curmudgeon for the reply!
Af first, I was going to assign DC 10 climb check, but for some reason the rules specify that all rock walls in mountains must have Climb DC 25 surfaces:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#mountainTerrain
"Rock Wall
A vertical plane of stone, rock walls require DC 25 Climb checks to ascend. A typical rock wall is 2d4×10 feet tall in rugged mountains and 2d8×10 feet tall in forbidding mountains. Rock walls are drawn on the edges of squares, not in the squares themselves. "

They had two 60 ft. rock walls. After those, they would've been able to meet the dragon.

[Jon_Dahl]

It seems to me like you prepared "mountain climb" while your players thought "mountain hike". Maybe they never considered climbing the sheer rock face. I mean, what would have happened if they had attempted to climb anywhere else but that specific rock wall? And were there any indications that this particular rock wall was anything other than a dead end?

Good question. They had an NPC with them that swore that the dragon was at that direction - pointing at the rock walls - and the distance was very, very short.

[kabreras]

If you are a brunch of adventurers going to a mountain without a few fly potions you must a failed somewhere in your career

[icks]

They are idiots ...

[Gwendol]

To answer your question: No. And to elaborate: I've never heard anything like this. If you plan on adventure in mountains, you equip yourself accordingly (with gear and spells). Or you die.

[Greenish]

I was once part of a party that came to a dark cave. None of us had any sources of light or darkvision. Is dungeon-delving impossible in D&D? :smalltongue:

[Palanan]

Wow. Just wow.

Your players faced two (2) sixty-foot rock walls, and being the mighty heroes they are, they let this stop them.

Probably every game has its disconnects between the players and the DM, and often enough players get peculiar, off-center notions absolutely lodged in their heads; but usually it's the players who seize on some tiny element of their environment, decide it's utterly critical to their immediate interests, and pursue it relentlessly. This seems to be almost the opposite situation.

And the fact is, they weren't stopped by two rock walls; they were stopped by the first one. This doesn't quite take the cake, but it certainly rates a muffin or two.

[Studoku]

Thank you Curmudgeon for the reply!
Af first, I was going to assign DC 10 climb check, but for some reason the rules specify that all rock walls in mountains must have Climb DC 25 surfaces:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#mountainTerrain
"Rock Wall
A vertical plane of stone, rock walls require DC 25 Climb checks to ascend. A typical rock wall is 2d4×10 feet tall in rugged mountains and 2d8×10 feet tall in forbidding mountains. Rock walls are drawn on the edges of squares, not in the squares themselves. "

They had two 60 ft. rock walls. After those, they would've been able to meet the dragon.
This is reasonable. This is not the DC for a climbing wall with evenly space handholds or the side of a rough stone house. This is a vertical or worse wall that has been eroded by wind and rain for thousands of years. It's not the kind of thing you just decide to climb.

It might be that your party didn't anticipate having to scale a cliff but they are at the kind of level where a cliff is barely an obstacle. Even unprepared, it's not hard to solve- which suggests either unimaginative or disinterested players.

All they needed to do was to get one or two party members to the top and let down a rope for everyone else (DC 5, at most, 10). Numerous level 2 or 3 spells do this, or itd be just about possible to give one character a +15 bonus and have them do it.

Failing that, make a big-ass signal fire of some kind and get the dragon to notice it. He's got wings.

EDIT: Forgot this bit:
Making Your Own Handholds and Footholds
You can make your own handholds and footholds by pounding pitons into a wall. Doing so takes 1 minute per piton, and one piton is needed per 3 feet of distance. As with any surface that offers handholds and footholds, a wall with pitons in it has a DC of 15. In the same way, a climber with a handaxe or similar implement can cut handholds in an ice wall.

So yeah, actually pack properly, have the best climber at the top hammering the pitons in and tie everyone together for aid another bonuses if you still can't make DC 15.

[SethoMarkus]

First off, it really sounds like there was a disconnect in communication somewhere here. I'm not saying that you failed to properly inform them about the challenges ahead (which really is more than your job as DM even requires), but that it sounds as though the players expected every challenge to be combat only. They just didn't anticipate an environmental based challenge.

Secondly, I can understand how you would be frustrated and upset with the players, but try not to take it out on them in-game. Did the players prepare themselves better for the rock wall the second time, but were cut short by the stronger monsters? Maybe the first attempt they didn't have any spells prepared that could help them climb the wall, but the cleric and wizard prepared such spells on the second day and never got the chance to use them?

Thirdly, it really does sound like the players didn't even try. Now, I wasn't there and we only have one side of the story, so I gave some benefit of the doubt in the above points, but wow. The players didn't even attempt to scale the wall on the first day? It really does sound like a lack of interest. I again propose that the players seemed to expect/want only combat focused challenges. Maybe you, as the DM, can take a moment before or after the next game session and explain to them that there will be other types of challenges for them to face in this game. You might even want to tell them flat-out that they need to get up this wall one way or the other; I know that isn't a perfect solution, but you seem to really want them to scale this wall, and this just might be the easiest, fastest way to get them to realize that.

That being said, if the PCs do attempt to scale the wall, be reasonable. Don't penalize them for not attempting it earlier. Don't shut-down creative ideas they may have for scaling the wall. This isn't to say that you should allow the impossible to happen (such as getting a running start and merely running up the side of the cliff), but if they try to fly to the top, let them. If they try to find another way around the mountain to the top, let them. Maybe it takes longer, maybe they encounter a storm, but don't throw monsters that are above their CR at them in a passive-aggressive response.

Everyone is here to have fun and play a game. You should have fun as a DM, watching them overcome (but still be challenged by) the challenges you set before them. They should have fun as players by being able to have agency in the game world and be able to come up with creative solutions if they choose, or face the challenge head on and still succeed (if they roll the right numbers on the right skills).


TLDR: Don't take it out on the players, and try to reaffirm that they need to get up the mountain and the rock wall is the most direct path- not a dead end.

[Greenish]

This isn't to say that you should allow the impossible to happen (such as getting a running start and merely running up the side of the cliff)Well, they do have a psychic warrior… (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) :smallcool:

[SethoMarkus]

Well, they do have a psychic warrior… (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls) :smallcool:

lol I suppose that would work if the psychic warrior had 40ft movement speed and could take a full round of move actions after the power was manifested :smalltongue:

Darn psionic characters... always bursting the "reality" bubble... at least those wizards follow proper logic all the time! :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

lol I suppose that would work if the psychic warrior had 40ft movement speed and could take a full round of move actions after the power was manifested :smalltongue:

Darn psionic characters... always bursting the "reality" bubble... at least those wizards follow proper logic all the time! :smalltongue:

To give you additional headache, that feat technically lets you stand on the ceiling (or the underside of a cliff etc.) :smalltongue:

[Feytalist]

lol I suppose that would work if the psychic warrior had 40ft movement speed and could take a full round of move actions after the power was manifested :smalltongue:

Darn psionic characters... always bursting the "reality" bubble... at least those wizards follow proper logic all the time! :smalltongue:

It's a feat. You simply need to be psionically focused.


Weird wording though: you can only "take part of one of your move actions" to move along a wall. So... no double moves? How odd.

[Psyren]

Weird wording though: you can only "take part of one of your move actions" to move along a wall. So... no double moves? How odd.

The "part of" means you start on a flat surface, traverse a vertical one, end on a flat surface. So if you have 30ft. move, the last square must be horizontal, hence the other 5 squares will be vertical.

[Feytalist]

The bit that's odd to me is the "one of your move actions" bit. So either you are only allowed to use one "Up The Walls" move action a round, or end on a flat surface in between move actions, depending on how you interpret the wording.

[Psyren]

The bit that's odd to me is the "one of your move actions" bit. So either you are only allowed to use one "Up The Walls" move action a round, or end on a flat surface in between move actions, depending on how you interpret the wording.

It's both - you can only take one move at a time, and must end on a flat surface between each move. So if you need a double-move to climb a wall and there is a small ledge halfway up, you can climb the whole thing in one round.

[Feytalist]

It's both - you can only take one move at a time, and must end on a flat surface between each move. So if you need a double-move to climb a wall and there is a small ledge halfway up, you can climb the whole thing in one round.


only allowed to use one "Up The Walls" move action a round

Not possible to be both, but I get your meaning. I'm just wondering why in this case a double move isn't a single full round action like usual. Eh, no matter.

[Psyren]

Not possible to be both, but I get your meaning. I'm just wondering why in this case a double move isn't a single full round action like usual. Eh, no matter.

Your quote is incorrect:


The height you can achieve on the wall is limited only by this movement restriction.

So yes, if there is a ledge partway up, you can move to it, stop there, then move again with your other move action (i.e. your standard action.)

And a "double-move" is never a full-round action, where did you get that? A double move comes from this rule:


You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.

Meaning that you are free to stop in between each one.

[forsaken1111]

The solution is simple.

Iron Heart Surge to end the condition "Wrong side of stone wall"

[Slipperychicken]

What, did they not have a single grappling hook between them?? How did they survive to this point?

You can overcome a 60ft wall at 1st level!

Or perhaps they assumed they went the wrong way out of a video-game mentality that such walls are insurmountable railroading-tools to get you to the next room full of enemies.

[Feytalist]

...huh. I must have been thinking of the Withdraw action. Okay, you're entirely correct in that case then, carry on.

[BWR]

a brunch of adventurers

Is this the new collective noun for PCs?
I like!

[Slipperychicken]

Is this the new collective noun for PCs?
I like!

They'll certainly become a brunch for the dragon if they're that ill-prepared. Depending on how long it takes them to overcome that wall, they might just be dinner, though :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

6th level characters with a cleric. What could a cleric do to solve the problem.

Cleric spell, 3rd level - STONE SHAPE!!!

Ok, I see the wall slowing them down. I see it taking 2-3 days to get over even, but given enough time the cleric could INSTALL A STAIRWELL WITH SAFETY RAILS for palors sake!

[Nightgaun7]

Wow. Just wow.

Your players faced two (2) sixty-foot rock walls, and being the mighty heroes they are, they let this stop them.

Probably every game has its disconnects between the players and the DM, and often enough players get peculiar, off-center notions absolutely lodged in their heads; but usually it's the players who seize on some tiny element of their environment, decide it's utterly critical to their immediate interests, and pursue it relentlessly. This seems to be almost the opposite situation.

And the fact is, they weren't stopped by two rock walls; they were stopped by the first one. This doesn't quite take the cake, but it certainly rates a muffin or two.

They could just get someone really strong to throw them to the top...

[Jon_Dahl]

What, did they not have a single grappling hook between them?? How did they survive to this point?

You can overcome a 60ft wall at 1st level!

Or perhaps they assumed they went the wrong way out of a video-game mentality that such walls are insurmountable railroading-tools to get you to the next room full of enemies.

Good point, but the rope is 50 ft. and their maximum vertical reach is 8 ft. The sixty-foot rock wall is so smooth that it doesn't have any handholds, so the grappling hook is unable to catch anything to (reliably) cling on to. Above the wall, the mountain continues so steep that the grappling hook slips too easily.

[Gray Mage]

Did they prepare anything special the second time around?

[Jon_Dahl]

Did they prepare anything special the second time around?

The sorcerer had Fly. However, he had spent most of his 3rd-level spells by the time they reached the walls the first time. He had spent them to Fireballs and used two Fly spells against an avalanche (he and his buddy flew over the avalanche, the rest were left to their own devices). I was satisfied that they had run out of Fly, because I wanted to see something creative when they reached the walls...