[PF] Guns, Paladins and Character Levels

[Archpaladin Zousha]

How do you deal with players who hate starting at 1st level? James Jacobs has mentioned that he likes his PCs starting as 1st level and advancing to high levels through the story. I like the same setup, as I feel it contributes greatly to the sense of growth and the advancement of a plot, but one of my best roleplaying friends absolutely hates starting at 1st level because he prefers playing the hypercompetent hero that rides into town at the start of the movie and rides off into the sunset at the end of it, rather than the fresh-faced youth that grows in power and wisdom to ascend to divinity or kingship at the end of their journey.

For example, what he wants to is to be the Clint Eastwood vigilante cowboy kind of figure, specifically referencing Pale Rider as his inspiration, for Wrath of the Righteous, but since the Holy Gun archetype is somewhat difficult to utilize when comparatively to a character who has 1 level of Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger and 4 levels of Divine Hunter Paladin will ultimately do the same thing the archetype does better. I recommended this build to him, but he stated that as a result he wouldn't be able to start the game as a paladin, because I'm such a putz for always making the characters start at first level. In his mind, the game doesn't start being fun until about tenth level or so, arguing that the kinds of characters you see in TV shows and movies never start out at 1st level (with the exception of Luke Skywalker, but he was always more partial to Han Solo anyway). More specific to his concept, no Clint Eastwood movie ever had the protagonist learning how to shoot a gun or things like that. He'd just ride into town, already hypercompetent, and beats the crap out of anyone who looks at him funny.

He also has a gripe about me saying "early firearms only" as that's what the standard for Golarion is. He claims that early firearms are worthless because of their long reload time and single-shot qualities, and that multiple shot early firearms (the pepperbox) are too risky as they have greater chances of misfire and exploding. While I think his concept is unbelievably cool, Golarion simply hasn't invented the iconic cowboy revolver yet.

I've argued with him about this before, and I'd really like to work things out with him, but unless we come to an agreement, he's probably going to ditch the concept.

[krai]

Don't know how flexible on feats his build is, but quick draw could solve the long reload problem. Just buy lots of guns then after each shot drop the current one then quick draw the next.

[Thrudd]

Sounds like he wants to play a different game. Maybe look at Deadlands, D20 modern/past, or even Boot Hill. His concept just doesn't work in a standard fantasy setting like D&D/PF.

[Crasical]

I -am- one of those players who hates to start at first level. So many of my GM's enforced starting at 1st and then subsequently canceled or stopped the game, and it wasn't long before I got sick of playing newbies. I vastly prefer 4th-5th level, as your characters start feeling solidly competent at that point, and can start having cool tricks to pull.

That said, I feel the gripe about using only early guns is him going a bit too far. That is the standard the gunslinger was written for, it's the standard for the setting you're playing in, and there's no strong reason to change it aside from catering specifically to him.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't know how flexible on feats his build is, but quick draw could solve the long reload problem. Just buy lots of guns then after each shot drop the current one then quick draw the next.
Rapid reload and alchemical cartridges can get you down to a free action with early pistols.
Also, advanced guns are available in Vanilla Golarian, but you would probably have to go to Alkenstar. If he really wants them, and who can blame him really, you could make this part of a quest.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Rapid Reload's the feat he'd need, and it's honestly a feat that anyone who plays some sort of firearm-using class in Pathfinder takes at first level anyway. I've mentioned this to him, but he claims that since I'm such a putz starting things out at first level, he wouldn't be able to start as a paladin and wouldn't be able to do the smiting he so wants to do.

To put things in perspective, he'd have the same issue if he didn't have a gun-wielding character, that he's unable to nonchalantly kick the behinds of enemies like Clint Eastwood does in the movies. He'd have the same issue in d20 Modern or any other game. He prefers to start the game at a level where the characters are already highly competent, and are able to fight and look cool while doing it. Whether that's at tenth level or at epic level, so long as he doesn't have to waste time getting to that point, he's happy.

To put it in perspective, Clint Eastwood's films never had the character as a kid learning how to handle a gun. He always just rode into town without fanfare or explanation and was able to fight off anybody who so much as looked at him funny. In The Three Musketeers, D'Artagnan and the other Musketeers are already competent duelists and it doesn't start with D'Artagnan first learning how to use a sword. The Fifth Element doesn't cover Korben Dallas' time in the military or how he became such a skilled fighter. It's not so much that the build doesn't work. I can help him with that. It's that he hates starting as a noob.

To quote him:


I get that, but if I'd end up being stuck with such abysmal weapons I don't think I'm going to use firearms. The last thing you need at first level is a weapon that will destroy itself and possibly kill you in the process. If a game is starting at level 1, using early firearms is easily a death sentence. And it's only viable if you play a human, without rapid reload you can only attack every other round. No one wants to play a pathetically weak ranged attacker for several levels. Without advanced firearms, gunslinger is a suicide class.

[Crasical]

I'd be hard pressed to say he's objectively wrong, and he even cites some examples from cinema to demonstrate PC's starting with a few levels under their belt. It's a personal preference, like your preference for starting at first level, or my preference for starting around fifth. Since you're the one running the game, your say goes, but he's justified in bowing out if he doesn't like the terms you set.

I still think he's being pushy asking for advanced firearms. Gunslinger is built on the assumption you -don't- have them. You need two misfires for a weapon to explode, Gunslingers have the Quick Clear deed to help prevent misfires, and the fact that an explosion can kill the character is more a factor of how fragile 1st level pcs are than how damaging exploding guns are.

[Firechanter]

How do you deal with players who hate starting at 1st level?

I start the game at 3rd or 4th level.

And not because I want to accomodate a "whiny" player, but because I can entirely understand being fed up with 1st level nobodies, so this has become standard for my games.
I don't care what JJ says, I prefer to have PCs that aren't knocked deep in the negatives by one (un)lucky axe swing, if not downright oneshotted.
Also, rising from level 4 to 20 is still quite bloody enough growth and advancement in one character.

Fwiw, in my campaigns not only the PCs start at level 3-4, but also most of the non-adventuring population is at least level 3; among other things because I don't believe in commoners eviscerated by housecats. but I digress.

That said, your player has the bad fortune that he just wants a different tech level than a pseudo-medieval (or -renaissance) fantasy world can offer. You're entirely right in restricting the game to early firearms. But so what, it's easy enough to reduce reload times down to Free Actions. The actual problem may be that he wants a different genre and a different game.

[Crasical]

I don't care what JJ says,

Who? :smallconfused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I told him the concept wasn't unworkable, and here's his response:

[The concept's unworkable]'s exactly what you're saying. A gunslinger with early firearms is not a viable choice. What happens when I hit level 6? I get the choice of STILL being stuck with one attack per turn, or I double my chances of having my weapon explode. And if I'm low on HP, hey, it might just KILL MY CHARACTER. And I'm forced to use one-handed firearms only, or I'm still firing every other turn. But hey, at least it would be a standard action instead of full round, that way I can flee like a little bitch when the demons come to kill me.

Who? :smallconfused:
James Jacobs, Paizo's Creative Director, who maintains a thread on their forums to answer questions from the players and fans.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Well, here's what I'd recommend:

1. If you don't mind characters with different power levels in the party, just let him start at higher level, but with 0 XP. So if he wants to start at level 6, he'll have to wait until the party earns 35,000 XP (assuming Medium advancement) to get to level 7.

2. Homebrew or houserule a solution. If he wants a Revolver, then just let him have one (and let him come up with a reason why he's the only person on Golarion who has one). If he wants Smite Evil, let him take a custom feat that lets him get it early (and have it stack with progression from later Paladin levels)

3. Just make him come up with a different character concept. I fully believe everyone at the table should be having fun, but this should never come at the expense of everyone else's fun. If no compromise can be found, then he's the one who should adjust instead of the rest of the table. I really don't recommend this though unless there really is no other way: Exhaust all your other options first.


Side note:

I honestly laugh at JJ's "Games should start at 1st level" stance because even the PF adventure paths are proof positive why this is a sucky idea: Most of the adventure paths make the PCs meander around doing busywork for the first few levels before they're high enough level that they can start playing the campaign they actually signed up for without the system falling to pieces. Starting at 1st level requires you to do this or lock yourself out of many, many campaign ideas.

[Crasical]

I told him the concept wasn't unworkable, and here's his response:

Quick question: Does he know you're reposting his comments here? That can get kind of violation-of-trust-y if he doesn't...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Quick question: Does he know you're reposting his comments here? That can get kind of violation-of-trust-y if he doesn't...
Yep. I told him as much. His response was that others would corroborate the mechanical problems he mentioned about early firearms.

He punctuated with the following when he said he was discarding the concept:

So, instead of unique and cool I get to be common and forgettable. Great. Because, FOR SOME REASON, advanced firearms are to scary to be allowed.

[Crasical]

Welp. I wish him luck finding out something that works for him, then? :smallannoyed:

[Thrudd]

The mechanical problems with firearms in Golarion are on purpose, aren't they? They aren't supposed to be great, they are still experimental technology. If he wants to play a gunslinger, why not try a western or modern or sci fi game someday?
If all your players feel the same about starting at 1st level, maybe you should consider starting them off higher level for one campaign. If he's the only one of the group that has a problem with playing at low level and everyone else wants to start at level one, I guess that's unfortunate for him. Maybe someday you can throw him a bone and have an epic campaign, that can be fun sometimes, too.
A distinction should be made at the start of any campaign about what sort of game this is going to be. If you say "this is a cinematic game where the players are like the action heroes in a movie" then one would expect to start off as lvl 10 Clint Eastwoods and Han Solos. If you say "this is a simulation of a fantasy world where the players will try to rise from being nobodies to being heroes", or "this is a narrative story about the origins of heroes from their humble beginnings" then the players' expectations should be in the right place.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

He frustrates me when he runs games too. They always start at what I see as obscenely high levels, like epic levels.

To give an example, one of the games he runs is one where the characters are chosen champions of the gods, one champion for each god, who battle one another to determine their patrons' standing in the pantheon, living in a heavenly city where they adventure when they're not competing against each other.

Some of the characters' backstories say that they're already over several centuries old.

[Dr. Yes]

It sounds like this is more of an interpersonal problem between two gamers who prefer vastly different power levels than a mechanics issue. I don't think you need to "deal with" the fact that he hates starting at first level; I think you need to talk it out and come to an understanding about what style of campaign you're both comfortable playing. That said, your friend may be willfully mis-reading the mechanics of the class and/or early guns to support his point. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, it is not difficult to get iterative attacks with early pistols, and musketeer Gunslingers can get them with long guns as well. Quick Clear is your friend with respect to not having the gun explode in your face.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

We've come to a compromise. I'm willing to let him start with a +1 early firearm for free that he can upgrade with Legendary Item.

[Palanan]

Sounds like you've resolved this, at least for the current game, but I just can't refrain from a couple of comments:


Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha
...but he stated that...I'm such a putz for always making the characters start at first level.


Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha
...but he claims that since I'm such a putz starting things out at first level....

There certainly seems to be a...theme, let's say, in your friend's commentary on your gaming style.

:smallannoyed:




Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha
He prefers to start the game at a level where the characters are already highly competent, and are able to fight and look cool while doing it. Whether that's at tenth level or at epic level, so long as he doesn't have to waste time getting to that point, he's happy.

This is not an approach that I would be sympathetic to, and from his comments you quoted, it sounds like this is someone who complains a lot until he gets his way. That may not be a fair assessment, but it's how it looks to me.


Originally Posted by Crasical
I still think he's being pushy asking for advanced firearms. Gunslinger is built on the assumption you -don't- have them....and the fact that an explosion can kill the character is more a factor of how fragile 1st level pcs are than how damaging exploding guns are.

All of this, several times over. I think Clint Eastwood here is trying to overstate the situation just to get his way. You've spent a fair amount of time working up a campaign in a setting with an established level of technology. He is (or he was) asking you to completely change that, just so he can look cool. On balance, he's lucky you're the DM.

(And like Firechanter, I usually start games at third or fourth level, although for different reasons.)

[Archpaladin Zousha]

There certainly seems to be a...theme, let's say, in your friend's commentary on your gaming style.

:smallannoyed:
That he thinks I'm too slow getting to the fun part?

This is not an approach that I would be sympathetic to, and from his comments you quoted, it sounds like this is someone who complains a lot until he gets his way. That may not be a fair assessment, but it's how it looks to me.
No no, I think it's accurate to a point. He's kind of reticent to have his concepts be restrained by canon or the conventions of a publish setting and gets annoyed when I thump my Inner Sea World Guide and show that the concept's out of place given the geographic location of the adventure path. I'm being really lenient with this, since technically the AP's more like the Diablo games than a Western. He's lucky that technically a large portion of Mendev's population are from all over the Inner Sea region, so it's possible some people from Alkenstar got there that his character could be descended from.

He also has a tendency to look at the character archetypes and classes and be all "OMG! That's so cool, I must play one!"

All of this, several times over. I think Clint Eastwood here is trying to overstate the situation just to get his way. You've spent a fair amount of time working up a campaign in a setting with an established level of technology. He is (or he was) asking you to completely change that, just so he can look cool. On balance, he's lucky you're the DM.

(And like Firechanter, I usually start games at third or fourth level, although for different reasons.)
It's almost the exact opposite when I play in games he runs. He'll literally let me play anything I want, even when I'm concerned it's not gonna work. That's part of what irritates me so much. I like that he's so flexible when I want to play something of his, but I don't extend the same freedom to him in my own games...:smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

I honestly dislike starting at one. I am a big fan of the character crunch in 3.5, and level 1 is pretty boring with your prereqs all set up but none/little of the pay off available.

If I start at a low level, I usually am stuck with one kind of action. Boooooring.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha
He's kind of reticent to have his concepts be restrained by canon or the conventions of a publish setting and gets annoyed when I thump my Inner Sea World Guide and show that the concept's out of place given the geographic location of the adventure path. I'm being really lenient with this....

Well, at some point the character has to actually fit into the game world. Definitely a fundamental difference in gaming style, but I'm glad you've worked out a compromise for now.


Originally Posted by Snowbluff
If I start at a low level, I usually am stuck with one kind of action. Boooooring.

There's always, I dunno, roleplaying?

:smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

There's always, I dunno, roleplaying?

:smallamused:

Then what do I do in combat? Combat already takes forever without my lamenting the terrifying decision of whether or not I should move and take an AoO, or shoot at melee range and take an AoO. :smalltongue:

Oh, and a small amused to you as well. Nothing I said in the quoted text precluded roleplaying. Nice bad assumption, there. :smallamused:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And now he's sideswiped me with this crazy idea!

"I can only see one way out of this dilemma, my character is just going to have to invent advanced firearms."

:smalleek:

[avr]

That could be cool as a personal goal in the campaign. Tricky without an INT focus to use with knowledge and/or craft skills though.

Maybe he could 'invent' them by stealing the secrets from Alkenstar. If it's good enough for Bill Gates ...

[Sephoris]

I think he's really understating early firearms. Only having to hit touch AC is huge. The fact that advanced firearms can do it from 5 range increments (anywhere from 100 to 400 feet) is downright scary.

And as others have said, Quick Clear makes misfire explosions pretty much a non-issue. There are a ton of ways to reduce misfire chances, too, and the majority are already only on a 1.

As for the level thing, I don't mind starting at level 1 in PF nearly as much as 3.5. Characters don't feel quite so frail and incompetent.

[Runeclaw]

A bit ironic that I read this thread just after reading this one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300566

Seems like there's a lot there to help with the shots/round thing, although admittedly not until at a bit higher level (but it's not really a problem until a bit later anyway, right?)

[Bhaakon]

If he's going with a Mysterious Stranger/Paladin build, then he won't get quickclear. He could, but taking the paladin level first and grabbing amateur gunslinger, but that means no starting gun.

I've thought about going with this build myself, but I ended up going with a gunslinger/inquisitor instead precisely for that reason.

[Thrudd]

It really comes down to what seems like a big difference in preferred playstyle and philosophy, and I don't know if anything can be done about it. As long as he's willing to play by the rules of the game and your rules as GM, I guess it really isn't a big deal. But it would be annoying having someone always whining about not being able to have what they want, instead of just playing the game and enjoying it for what it is.
In some ways, I feel like 3.5/PF contributed to this mentality becoming more widespread among players, kind of spoiled people, with its format of a-la-cart character options and unrestricted multiclassing as well as abundant and easily accessible magic items as part of the assumed play setting. I love all the options, I loved 3.5, but after reading this forum I realize how broken it can be when you allow unrestricted access to everything from every splatbook, even with PF's adjusted rules. I want to encourage creativity as much as anyone, but creativity within the parameters of the given setting. A player who will not concede to the agreed format of the game is being rather selfish.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thrudd
But it would be annoying having someone always whining about not being able to have what they want, instead of just playing the game and enjoying it for what it is.

I've been in that situation before, and it's intensely frustrating. I see these limitations as an integral aspect of the game, but some people just...don't.


Originally Posted by Thrudd
I want to encourage creativity as much as anyone, but creativity within the parameters of the given setting. A player who will not concede to the agreed format of the game is being rather selfish.

And especially given the immense variety of options in 3.5, it's really not hard to come up with something interesting.

That said, back to the OP's original question:


Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha
How do you deal with players who hate starting at 1st level?

In the OP's case, I'd say Zousha has worked some minor magic by finding a good compromise with his player. I'd be interested to know if it involved more leniency, or Zousha laying down the law.

More generally, the way I see the issue--it really shouldn't take too long to reach second level, so it's just a matter of a little patience on the player's part. I do like Firechanter's reasons for starting at third or fourth level; and in my case, I like to let players develop their build a little bit, so they have the sense of an individual who's been through a few tight spots and is ready for the wider world.

But sometimes, starting from scratch is its own kind of fun. Sometimes it's good to feel that sense of accomplishment at starting from a near-nobody, and taking those first steps towards becoming a Somebody.

.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That could be cool as a personal goal in the campaign. Tricky without an INT focus to use with knowledge and/or craft skills though.

Maybe he could 'invent' them by stealing the secrets from Alkenstar. If it's good enough for Bill Gates ...
Well, I told him that an in-game justification for even being a gunslinger in the first place was that his family came from Alkenstar and taught him everything he knows, so he doesn't really need to steal. Just refine. :smallwink:

Also, I've just learned that advanced firearms DO exist on Golarion, but they're rarer than even regular firearms and are always the product of an individual gunslinger tinkering enough to eventually build it themselves. No two are alike. I've told the player this, and I'm hoping this will get him to come around. He'll have to wait until he's around 15th level, but from what I've been told, a gunslinger getting a revolver should be equivalent to a paladin obtaining a holy avenger.

[Felhammer]

You could always make levels 1 and 2 be a flashback to the characters' youth. Then time skip forward a few years (where the PCs are now 3rd level).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Unfortunately the AP starts out pretty immediately. Levels 1-3 are the PCs getting out of the cavern the demonic attack threw them into.

[Palanan]

Which AP are you running? I'm not at all familiar with Pathfinder material.

[Karoht]

Early storyline hook. The character finds an advanced firearm. In a place that one really should not be.

The gun is now a clue, and you can weave a larger story around it, showing the impact that advanced firearms have when first entering the world.

Misfires are the reason that you always carry a backup weapon. It's also easy to carry two fully loaded pepperboxes and switch between them than it is to reload in mid-combat.

The scatter weapons are pretty awesome.

Scatter Weapon Quality: A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. Cannons with the scatter weapon quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state otherwise. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.

I highly recommend a scatter weapon for those first few levels.

Also, while firing a scatter weapon, you make separate ranged touch attacks for everything in range. I am unsure if these attacks can apply precision damage, IE-Sneak. I did a Ninja/Gunslinger (my Gnome Gninja) but this question was never answered.

[Sephoris]

Also, while firing a scatter weapon, you make separate ranged touch attacks for everything in range. I am unsure if these attacks can apply precision damage, IE-Sneak. I did a Ninja/Gunslinger (my Gnome Gninja) but this question was never answered.


Scatter Weapon Quality: A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. Cannons with the scatter weapon quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state otherwise. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that answers it right there.

[Psyren]

I like to start at 3rd level. Low enough that combat can be dangerous even for the experienced players, high enough that they can actually survive a shocking grasp to the face or whatever.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Which AP are you running? I'm not at all familiar with Pathfinder material.
The newest one, Wrath of the Righteous (http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/wrathOfTheRighteous).

[Karoht]

Unless I'm misunderstanding, that answers it right there.Wow, look at me derping at full capacity.

Still salient point, scatter type guns are unlikely to misfire. And at low level you have a pretty solid multi-target weapon. Enjoy.