Tarquin's major weakness

[Zerter]

I know a lot of people want to see Tarquin lose in a humiliating way, Elan is probably setting that up as we speak. Narrative conventions aside however, Tarquin seems to be repeating the exact same mistakes that cost him his empire in the past.

He has stated that when he previously tried to conquer the continent openly, everyone united against him and kicked his ass. Which is his reason for working underground currently. That works to some extent, we see the ruse protecting him in the latest strip. Tarquin does not seem to consider however that even though he has limited his exposure, his ego is causing him to in fact build a major list of personal enemies, a lot of which are probably willing (if not eager) to unite against him. Here is a list of the high level ones:

Gannji, Enor, Ian, Geoff, Sabine, Amun-Zora, the Order of the Stick.

And that is only in the short time we have been following him. He on the other hand has lost Malack and gained no one. What does this say? If Tarquin makes enemies like this (on all sides of the alignment perspective), given enough time, they will once again unite against him.

This Especially since most of them are aware of his schemes. He might have several allies that are around epic level on his side, but part of the strategy on his part is that they need to be spread out most of the time. He in fact seems especially vulnerable against an opponent aware of his schemes.

[Yumori Zatsuken]

Tarquin is getting prepared and more stealthy.He knows his son will probably kill him,and others will do a resistance.

[Copperdragon]

We also know that Tarquins quickly made enemies also have a tendency to vanish quickly again. Who's to say Tarquin has not already prepared "exit strategies" for everyone mentioned?

But yes, I agree. Tarquin is trying to keep his actual role under wraps but he is way too honest and gloaty when he thinks he has won, thus making enemies by the dozens. And those are the ones he directly deals with, I bet there are a large number of people who know about him and become his enemies due to his deeds (think family, allies and friends of people he directly has contact with).

Tarquin is very probably aware of that - it is part of his entire "Evil Overlord" thing he has going but it also is his big weakness. As long as he is in control this is all a minor issue but should he get under real pressure for once and all of his other enemies pop out of hiding, he might actually find the mess is too big to ride.

Yet, he does not strike me as someone who has to fight a hopeless fight. Instead of dieing he can also flee. I am pretty sure he has some secret retirement castle prepared on another continent prepared should it come to him losing his empires on the western continent.

What is better than "Ruling Empires with an Iron Fist and then getting killed for it?"
Yes, it is "Keeping Ruling these Empires until age claims him", but between those is "Ruling Empires for decades and then living out the remaining time as a rich baron somewhere far away and everyone thinks you are dead".

[martianmister]

His hypocrisy:

Business before pleasure.

[Copperdragon]

In his case that is not hypocritic. His business is his pleasure. He does not have a conflict there. And if he does get in a conflict he simply turns his pleasure into his business.

[Lord Raziere]

Wait.

Tarquin doesn't believe in alignment….does he believe in an afterlife either?

if he doesn't…..and….

ahahahaha……ahahahahahaha…..AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA…..

Tarquin is unable to win. he forgot the one important rule:

:xykon::Be a vampire or a ghost, or an immortal paint by numbers portrait in the rec room or a heck a brain in jar will do in a pinch….

...anything to avoid The Big Fire below. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[BlackDragonKing]

Wait.

Tarquin doesn't believe in alignment….does he believe in an afterlife either?

if he doesn't…..and….

ahahahaha……ahahahahahaha…..AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA…..

Tarquin is unable to win. he forgot the one important rule:

:xykon::Be a vampire or a ghost, or an immortal paint by numbers portrait in the rec room or a heck a brain in jar will do in a pinch….

...anything to avoid The Big Fire below. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

I don't know that he forgot it so much as anyone that knows as much about narrative conventions as Tarquin knows that Immortality devices never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever work forever. It is essentially a 100% guarantee SOMETHING will destroy whatever's keeping you alive and then you're right back where you started. You can't evade the big fire, no matter what Xykon thinks. Something's going to break your trinket eventually. You can become a lich and hide six billion phylacteries on six billion pocket dimensions with their own sets of dungeons to keep you from even being able to tell if one is there, some schmuck is going to blunder into your real one and destroy it sometime and then someone will kill you. If Tarquin knows anything about narratives, he knows the only point of devices or racial changes that prevent you from dying normally is to give the hero a big dramatic moment where he breaks your immortality later and kills you when you thought yourself invincible. At least Tarquin's not entertaining the delusion that being a lich is somehow going to keep him alive forever no matter how many enemies he makes.

[faustin]

I don't know that he forgot it so much as anyone that knows as much about narrative conventions as Tarquin knows that Immortality devices never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever work forever. It is essentially a 100% guarantee SOMETHING will destroy whatever's keeping you alive and then you're right back where you started. You can't evade the big fire, no matter what Xykon thinks. Something's going to break your trinket eventually. You can become a lich and hide six billion phylacteries on six billion pocket dimensions with their own sets of dungeons to keep you from even being able to tell if one is there, some schmuck is going to blunder into your real one and destroy it sometime and then someone will kill you. If Tarquin knows anything about narratives, he knows the only point of devices or racial changes that prevent you from dying normally is to give the hero a big dramatic moment where he breaks your immortality later and kills you when you thought yourself invincible. At least Tarquin's not entertaining the delusion that being a lich is somehow going to keep him alive forever no matter how many enemies he makes.

Unless you become a god. Ascension, while extreme difficult, it´s a possibility if you are badass and determined enough.

[Akisa]

Unless you become a god. Ascension, while extreme difficult, it´s a possibility if you are badass and determined enough.

But it's proven that gods can be killed. Although only one entity has done so but it still proves it is possible.

[Snails]

Tarquin prides himself on never literally lying or literally breaking his word.

I think that Roy's girlfriend might be clever enough to take Tarquin down, if she put her mind to it. But probably she could use the help of Elan's mother who understands the man.

[SincroFashad]

In my opinion, Tarquin doesn't really have a true major weakness, rather a number of minor ones which could be exploited.

He's pretty dismal at reading other people's desires and feelings, leading to poor understanding of what will motivate them to take various actions.

He's very reliant on magic devices. Stick him in an anti-magic shell, and he's merely a near-epic level fighter. OK, near epic-level fighters still have a nice pile of hp and the ability to dish some damage, but they become far easier to attrit.

Sort of parallel to the second point, in any sort of stand-up fight, he'd be partially reliant on the abilities of his friends, assuming anyone left from TT could be considered his friend. Separate him from them and his vulnerability goes up.

While he clearly doesn't like over complicated plans like Nale did, he still has his fingers in a *huge* number of pies. He's clearly lost track of Nale's lover, and who knows what else he has or could lose track of.

-Sinc

[BlackDragonKing]

He's very reliant on magic devices. Stick him in an anti-magic shell, and he's merely a near-epic level fighter. OK, near epic-level fighters still have a nice pile of hp and the ability to dish some damage, but they become far easier to attrit.

To be fair, this actually applies way less to Tarquin, being a fighter, than to nearly any other enemy the order's made.

Tarquin in an anti-magic field or whatever is still a seasoned combatant who has immense physical strength and toughness and a big feckin' axe, and he doesn't magically lose the years of training his body to be a lethal weapon when magic is turned off.

Redcloak, on the other hand, becomes a young, unarmed goblin when his casting is being negated, and I don't think he's ever thrown a punch in his life. Considering that Xykon has never needed an alternative strategy to blasting things to death with his spells and covers up a lot of weaknesses (see Right-Eye's plan or Disintegrates bouncing off him) with magic items, losing his spellcasting again might be the end of him. I honestly can't tell if Liches can even MOVE in anti-magic fields, since they have no muscles...

So really, losing magic actually works out way better for Tarquin than anybody else the Order would be up against. :smalltongue:

[Weiser_Cain]

His weakness is Elan.

[SincroFashad]

My point on reliance of magic items stems from a couple off-hand comments he's made. The ring of regeneration, don't leave home without it is the one that comes to mind without actually going back to look for other examples.

Yeah, the same could be said for any other enemy the Order might face, but I just wanted to point out that although the weakness is a minor one, it does exist.

-Sinc

[GSFB]

I honestly can't tell if Liches can even MOVE in anti-magic fields, since they have no muscles...

FYI, corporeal undead continue to function in an anti-magic field - but all supernatural powers, spell-like powers, and spells are affected. So Xykon could move, but would lose most of his power. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

[The Pilgrim]

Considering that Xykon has never needed an alternative strategy to blasting things to death with his spells and covers up a lot of weaknesses (see Right-Eye's plan or Disintegrates bouncing off him) with magic items, losing his spellcasting again might be the end of him.

Not if he can grab a pointy trophy and smash your head with it.

Or grab you by your neck and strangle your windpipe with his bare phalanges.

[Lord Raziere]

I've had an epiphany.

if Tarquin desires a dramatic end, exciting conclusion….

then the way his empire will fall, will be completely boring. the way he will be defeated, will be completely boring.

somehow, his three empires will find out about all his crimes…and just agree to a completely peaceful union and start reforming into a completely good society
united, vowing to reform the system so that it can't be abused, then locking Tarquin away to rot in high-security prison for the rest of his life.

he will be doomed to be in a cell far longer than he has currently lived, in boring, dull monotony, powerless.

if Azure city was a lawful good society slowly becoming more unstable and chaotic until war came and destroyed it and it became completely evil and wrecked, then the empire of blood must be about a completely chaotically evil society reforming to become more and more orderly until it changes into good.

and Tarquin, wanting things to be dramatic will break down, going "NO it must be dramatic! things just….don't happen boringly! they just don't! where is the war!? where is the dramatic climax!? I'M SUPPOSED TO DIE DARN IT! KILL ME DARN IT, KILL ME…"

and everyone just stares at him….not making a move.

Edit: if your wondering how this is his weakness, simply remember that Elan protested against something totally boring earlier this very arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) showing evidence that not everything in OOTS-verse follows known narrative convention and perhaps providing foreshadowing as to how Tarquin will react when things turn out totally boring- Tarquin is a far more genre savvy character so his reliance upon his genre savviness must be much stronger than Elan's.

also remember that Tarquin has many parallels to Shojo- Shojo died because of his machinations made the city so destabilized and his plans sounded too much like conspiracy to Miko. so Tarquin's downfall could very well be his own machinations making everything more orderly so much that everything turns into boring unity because of it.

[snikrept]

Bloodstone was probably full of people who had legit grievances toward Tarquin and wanted him dead. He's been making enemies liberally for years, and then having those enemies murdered. A few more won't slow him.

Also recall that he's deliberately antagonizing Elan because he wants a climactic father-son showdown so that he can become a legend.

[ben-zayb]

Nah, letting him rot in prison WILL never work (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardboardPrison), or at least he'll think of it that way.

I still go with some anticlimactic death like being off-paneled by the Snarl or something. After all, that's the end-all, be-all, of the OOTS-verse, except for obvious circumstances like Roy.

[Lord Raziere]

Nah, letting him rot in prison WILL never work (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CardboardPrison), or at least he'll think of it that way.


you missed the point entirely.

the point is that not everything in OOTS happens just because of narrative tropes

but fine, I'll humor you. he will probably die a boring death, executed after lawfully convicted of all his crimes. there.

[BlackGrail]

He's very reliant on magic devices. Stick him in an anti-magic shell, and he's merely a near-epic level fighter. OK, near epic-level fighters still have a nice pile of hp and the ability to dish some damage, but they become far easier to attrit.

I had to register and post here for the first time just to answer this single point, even if it is has already been addressed by another. I don't want to come off immediately as offensive or rude, and please don't take this personally, but this single line has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the Internet.

You've got a powerful near-epic level fighter, stacked up with feats, HP, BAB, Str, Con, and just about anything else, armored up to his nose and armed to the teeth, and you're telling me that his weakness is.... anti-magic field? Are you freaking serious? He'll be easier to wear down once his inumerable magical goodies have been negated? By whom, pray tell me? If he's inside AM bubble, who is it that'll have far easier time to attrition him? Certainly not any kind of caster, because nothing they can dish out will touch him. With what can even an epic-level mage, cleric or druid or whatever beat up a fighter in an AM bubble? His starting pack crossbow? Big stick? Anything at all that attacks a fighter in an AM bubble will have to fight him toe-to-toe without any magical or supernatural aid. Freaking smite evil wouldn't work in an AM bubble! Potions wouldn't work! An archer shooting arrows at him couldn't deal more than 1d8 dmg (+Str bonus) per shot (provided he hits him). So, that pretty much excludes any other character aside another near-epic fighter himself (or possibly, a barbarian, though it can be debated that a well-trained fighter with a bunch of feats could wear down a barbarian).

Hell, if I was a Tarquin, planing plans on the level where your contingent plans have their own contingent plans, and those contingent plans are already planing for their grandchildren to go in a contingent-planing colleague and get a master's degree in a field of contingent planing... I'd have an AM field not as my first weakness, but as my last line of defense, in the case absolutely everything else goes to hell. At the point where all the plots in a plots end up cornered, you turn on your AM bubble and say "Bring it on!" No more spells, no more magic items, no more potions, no more crap, just bashing down the health pools to negative hitpoints with a masterwork greataxe. Who'd won in such a scenario, I wonder, but a near-epic level fighter at the expense of just about everyone else?

Again, no offense and please don't take this the wrong way, but I simply had to respond to this. So, hello everyone, from long-time lurker, first-time poster.

[Dungeon_Crawler]

Gannji, Enor, Ian, Geoff, Sabine, Amun-Zora, the Order of the Stick.

Elan won't let The Order kill Tarquin. He's the good twin, not the neutral one.

[Kurashima]

Wait.

Tarquin doesn't believe in alignment….does he believe in an afterlife either?

if he doesn't…..and….

ahahahaha……ahahahahahaha…..AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA…..

Tarquin is unable to win. he forgot the one important rule:

:xykon::Be a vampire or a ghost, or an immortal paint by numbers portrait in the rec room or a heck a brain in jar will do in a pinch….

...anything to avoid The Big Fire below. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

I would say that its highly unlikely Tarquin has not prepared at least a clone, in order to avoid such a fate.

[ben-zayb]

you missed the point entirely.

the point is that not everything in OOTS happens just because of narrative tropes

but fine, I'll humor you. he will probably die a boring death, executed after lawfully convicted of all his crimes. there.

Actually, the entire basis of the point is flawed in itself, as it still follows certain narrative concepts (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BoringButPractical). The thing is, Tropes will likely always be present in any <seriously any X>, accidentally or not.

That's why my belief goes the same with a lot of the previous posters. It's not that he's wrongfully assuming that he lives in a narrative piece, it's just he has genre blindness (or at least has a genre blind spot) in that the "story"/plot/setting/scenario he's in isn't what he expects it to be (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WrongGenreSavvy).

[Miraqariftsky]

I had to register and post here for the first time just to answer this single point, even if it is has already been addressed by another. I don't want to come off immediately as offensive or rude, and please don't take this personally, but this single line has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the Internet.

You've got a powerful near-epic level fighter, stacked up with feats, HP, BAB, Str, Con, and just about anything else, armored up to his nose and armed to the teeth, and you're telling me that his weakness is.... anti-magic field? Are you freaking serious? He'll be easier to wear down once his inumerable magical goodies have been negated? By whom, pray tell me? If he's inside AM bubble, who is it that'll have far easier time to attrition him? Certainly not any kind of caster, because nothing they can dish out will touch him. With what can even an epic-level mage, cleric or druid or whatever beat up a fighter in an AM bubble? His starting pack crossbow? Big stick? Anything at all that attacks a fighter in an AM bubble will have to fight him toe-to-toe without any magical or supernatural aid. Freaking smite evil wouldn't work in an AM bubble! Potions wouldn't work! An archer shooting arrows at him couldn't deal more than 1d8 dmg (+Str bonus) per shot (provided he hits him). So, that pretty much excludes any other character aside another near-epic fighter himself (or possibly, a barbarian, though it can be debated that a well-trained fighter with a bunch of feats could wear down a barbarian).

Hell, if I was a Tarquin, planing plans on the level where your contingent plans have their own contingent plans, and those contingent plans are already planing for their grandchildren to go in a contingent-planing colleague and get a master's degree in a field of contingent planing... I'd have an AM field not as my first weakness, but as my last line of defense, in the case absolutely everything else goes to hell. At the point where all the plots in a plots end up cornered, you turn on your AM bubble and say "Bring it on!" No more spells, no more magic items, no more potions, no more crap, just bashing down the health pools to negative hitpoints with a masterwork greataxe. Who'd won in such a scenario, I wonder, but a near-epic level fighter at the expense of just about everyone else?

Again, no offense and please don't take this the wrong way, but I simply had to respond to this. So, hello everyone, from long-time lurker, first-time poster.

The subtle tongue, the wizard's guile, they fail when the broadswords sing.
Rush in and die, dogs--- I was a man before I was a king!

King Conan says hello, sir Grail. Welcome aboard.

Hah! And with a greataxe, too. Just like in The Phoenix on the Sword by REHoward, eh? Agreed, my good fellow.

Tarquin's weakness? Critical misjudgment of certain folk, let's put it at that.

[goodyarn]

and Tarquin, wanting things to be dramatic will break down, going "NO it must be dramatic! things just….don't happen boringly! they just don't! where is the war!? where is the dramatic climax!? I'M SUPPOSED TO DIE DARN IT! KILL ME DARN IT, KILL ME…"

and everyone just stares at him….not making a move.

I agree with this. One way to beat Tarquin's plan as articulated in #763 is to subvert every trope he invokes. So by that logic, Tarquin would NOT be defeated by Elan. His defeat does NOT make a memorable story. And he would be forced to live for decades more in misery and obscurity, regretting where his choices led him. (Heck, if he could wind up immortal and miserable, or damned, then so much the better.) Ultimately he would then conclude that the comparatively brief time he "lived as a god" was not worth what came after.

That's a tall order. But that would be one way to beat him.

[Snails]

I am seeing a pattern forming: Tarquin is less astute about gauging women.

In a very short order of time, Tarquin has acquired the very negative attention of three highly competent women, and he does not even know it: Elan's mother, Sabine, Haley.

Each on their own is probably not able to take him down. Working together, accidentally or on purpose, they are potentially way beyond him.

The key problem for Tarquin is that he has no idea.

[gerryq]

You've got a powerful near-epic level fighter, stacked up with feats, HP, BAB, Str, Con, and just about anything else, armored up to his nose and armed to the teeth, and you're telling me that his weakness is.... anti-magic field? Are you freaking serious? He'll be easier to wear down once his inumerable magical goodies have been negated? By whom, pray tell me? If he's inside AM bubble, who is it that'll have far easier time to attrition him? Certainly not any kind of caster, because nothing they can dish out will touch him. With what can even an epic-level mage, cleric or druid or whatever beat up a fighter in an AM bubble? His starting pack crossbow? Big stick? Anything at all that attacks a fighter in an AM bubble will have to fight him toe-to-toe without any magical or supernatural aid. Freaking smite evil wouldn't work in an AM bubble! Potions wouldn't work! An archer shooting arrows at him couldn't deal more than 1d8 dmg (+Str bonus) per shot (provided he hits him). So, that pretty much excludes any other character aside another near-epic fighter himself (or possibly, a barbarian, though it can be debated that a well-trained fighter with a bunch of feats could wear down a barbarian)

Indeed, this argument is a bit silly. Probably if Thog were put in an anti-magic field with Tarquin, Thog would win... except that Tarquin would soon persuade Thog to work with him.

The thing is: D&D is the universe this story takes place in - but what happens is no more like what would be probable in D&D than what happens in a thriller would be like what happens in Real Life (TM).

It's a story. What happens will be what happens in the story.

[drnsain]

I concur. Brilliant.


I've had an epiphany.

if Tarquin desires a dramatic end, exciting conclusion….

then the way his empire will fall, will be completely boring. the way he will be defeated, will be completely boring.

somehow, his three empires will find out about all his crimes…and just agree to a completely peaceful union and start reforming into a completely good society
united, vowing to reform the system so that it can't be abused, then locking Tarquin away to rot in high-security prison for the rest of his life.

he will be doomed to be in a cell far longer than he has currently lived, in boring, dull monotony, powerless.

if Azure city was a lawful good society slowly becoming more unstable and chaotic until war came and destroyed it and it became completely evil and wrecked, then the empire of blood must be about a completely chaotically evil society reforming to become more and more orderly until it changes into good.

and Tarquin, wanting things to be dramatic will break down, going "NO it must be dramatic! things just….don't happen boringly! they just don't! where is the war!? where is the dramatic climax!? I'M SUPPOSED TO DIE DARN IT! KILL ME DARN IT, KILL ME…"

and everyone just stares at him….not making a move.

Edit: if your wondering how this is his weakness, simply remember that Elan protested against something totally boring earlier this very arc (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) showing evidence that not everything in OOTS-verse follows known narrative convention and perhaps providing foreshadowing as to how Tarquin will react when things turn out totally boring- Tarquin is a far more genre savvy character so his reliance upon his genre savviness must be much stronger than Elan's.

also remember that Tarquin has many parallels to Shojo- Shojo died because of his machinations made the city so destabilized and his plans sounded too much like conspiracy to Miko. so Tarquin's downfall could very well be his own machinations making everything more orderly so much that everything turns into boring unity because of it.

[Valanarch]

I am seeing a pattern forming: Tarquin is less astute about gauging women.

In a very short order of time, Tarquin has acquired the very negative attention of three highly competent women, and he does not even know it: Elan's mother, Sabine, Haley.

Each on their own is probably not able to take him down. Working together, accidentally or on purpose, they are potentially way beyond him.

The key problem for Tarquin is that he has no idea.

Haley already wanted revenge against Tarquin for him lightning the slaves on fire. Elan's mother is not powerful, not competent, and already hated Tarquin.