[PF] The new Mythic Adventures book is out

[Alleran]

As per the topic title. Mythic Adventures is out and has been for about half a month now. Has anybody here had a chance to take a look through it, and if so, what was your verdict?

For myself, I do like the concept of some of the abilities, but for several of them the mechanics are way off, either too powerful or too weak (based on my experimentation with them in simulated encounters of various sorts, mind you - they might be more or less effective depending on situation). There are definitely some horrible choices, but also some intriguing ones (e.g. Divine Source to be a demigod, and Beyond Morality if I could make any sense of the ability and how it interacts with stuff). And the Archmage's Wild Arcana path ability is still the most powerful one there. Spend a use of mythic power, and as a swift action you get to cast any spell on your spell list (any spell) at +2 CL.

Archmage still seems to get the best abilities on the whole, although Trickster has Path Dabbling and Dual Path is still there. And a lot of abilities and the like require swift or immediate actions. I can see some definite action economy. Guardian is the worst of the lot. Champion receives things like automatically maximising any/all rolls you make for damage on a critical, and automatically confirming any critical threat (so roll a nat20, and that's a crit). Plus they can destroy magical effects by punching/slicing/stabbing/smacking it hard enough now. And can do things like tracking somebody and retaining perfect knowledge of their location after they hit them with a melee touch attack.

The feats are unimpressive for the most part. Ascendant Spell metamagic is interesting (allows you to cast the mythic version of a spell instead of the normal one even if you don't have it and don't have mythic power; good for those who gain mythic tiers late in development, so they don't waste Mythic Spellcasting or Mythic Spell Lore choices on low-level magic that they might not need as much at higher levels), and there's some more fun stuff throughout, but there's also a lot of stuff that just adds more numbers. And the Mythic Power Attack is a bit confusing.

Monsters are mostly terrible. I loved the First Owlbear, but none of the others were really able to grab my attention. Magic items are all mythic, per the norm, and include several artifacts, including the Trueforge (allows you to create artifacts). You can also get legendary items, which level up in power with the mythic character and become artifacts in their own right. So players now have the ability to create their own artifacts. The art is beautiful in almost all cases (my favourite is the one with Amiri using an ankylosaur in a fastball special against a stegosaurus while Sajan is jumping into the air, prepared to punch out a T-rex).

Mythic Realms and Mythic Origins will be out before long, and there's already a preview path ability for the Champion on their blog (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lf19?Take-Your-Character-to-the-Level-After-the):


Seven-League Leap (Ex): Your leap is so mighty that you defy gravity. Add your tier to Acrobatics checks made to jump. The distance you can jump in a round is not limited by your movement speed. If you are carrying no more than a light load, you can expend one use of mythic power to make a powerful jump that lets you sail through the air. In order to use this ability, you must be able to run in a straight line for 1 minute. Any obstacles or impediments that prevent you from completing this sprint uninterrupted prevent you from being able to use this ability, though the expenditure of mythic power is not wasted. At the end of your 1-minute sprint, you attempt an Acrobatics check and leap a distance up to half the check’s result in miles, rounded down to the nearest mile (for example, an Acrobatics check result of 29 would allow you to jump 14 miles). This trip takes 1 round per mile, and you reach a maximum height at the apex of your arc equal to half the distance traveled. You do not take falling damage from using this ability. You must have a clear arc of travel to complete this jump; if you strike an obstacle mid-jump, you and the obstacle each take a number of points of damage equal to 1d8 × the number of miles you have left to travel. If this damage destroys the obstacle, you continue your jump; otherwise, your jump comes to an end and you fall, taking falling damage as appropriate. You cannot aim this leap accurately, and always land 50 to 5,000 feet (5d%) from your intended destination.
So more abilities are coming. Hopefully they're better than a good chunk of the ones in Mythic Adventures.

[Bhaakon]

I have had a chance to go through it, and I agree that its design tends to reflect the overall linear fighters/quadratic wizards model of class construction. Particularly since casters get a whole slew of extra goodies in mythic spells on top of their potent path abilities.

For the most part, the mythic abilities seem designed to make the classes better at what they can already do (no big surprise there), but by definition that means that classes that can do more things (ie: full casters) will get more benefit.

That being said, I think the suite of base mythic abilities are more useful for mundanes than casters, since many of them revolve around improving/re-rolling d20s, (which mundane characters need to do more often than casters), healing (which many casters can already do) or removing conditions (which, again, many casters can already do).

I rather wonder If I should let all my mundane characters be mythic in order to give them nice things to match up with tier 1s. I think a high level wizard would still trounce a high level mythic Fighter/Rogue/Barb/etc., but it might be closer.

edit: And you're absolutely right about the complexity. Mythic characters are effectively gestalts with a slew of daily use abilities and niggly situational bonuses. It's a real bookkeeping nightmare.

[Psyren]

I'll wait till it's in the SRD to read it, though I think my DM may have picked it up so I'll go visit him.

In any event, I have little interest in either Epic or "pre-Epic Epic" so this one will likely be a tiny blip on my radar like Paths of Prestige was.

[Zubrowka74]

"Seven-League Leap" ? Hulk smaaaaash!!!


***

Remember the time when there wasn't any rules for ascending? Take the 1984 black "Master's" box. Each path had a loose indication of things the character had to tdo to ascend. Mostly fluff, little mechanics. That's how I'd do it. High level adventurers are enough book-keeping as it is.

[Psyren]

Remember the time when there wasn't any rules for ascending? Take the 1984 black "Master's" box. Each path had a loose indication of things the character had to tdo to ascend. Mostly fluff, little mechanics. That's how I'd do it. High level adventurers are enough book-keeping as it is.

*gets off Zubrowka's lawn*

:smalltongue:

[Craft (Cheese)]

Honestly? I wasn't terribly impressed with the playtest and the finished product doesn't win me over either. Thing is I'm not entirely sure who this is supposed to appeal to and what kind of games it's supposed to facilitate that didn't work just fine with the standard rules. It just screams "gimmick."

[Keneth]

I imagine a similar breed of people as those who enjoy playing gestalt games, except gestalt tends to even things out a bit if you limit the allowed tiers.

Personally, I'll only be using mythic rules for bosses. And for the mythic vampire template. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

MA is trying to introduce a whole new system, and that really can't be done in one book.
By itself, MA has the same problem as the ELH. The ELH really tried to be the "core rules" for epic play...except that it was one book which made up the PHB, the DMG, and the MM. So if you tried to play epic games with just the ELH, it was like playing Core Only but with 1/3 of the options removed. Which, frankly, is not very interesting. To fix this, you need to add more supplements, which WotC never did. So playing epic in 3.0/3.5 basically requires using homebrew feats, character options, and items.
I like what I've seen (except the number increases, I don't like those) so far, but it won't be as fun to play until more options are available.
Legendary games has started coming out with supplements of mythic monsters, most of which have new powers. They've also announced a book of 447 new mythic spells (all core spells which don't already have mythic versions), and hinted at a book of new mythic feats. Combined with Mythic Origins, Mythic Realms, WotR, and the mythic monsters in the bestiary 4, and it looks like before long there will be a decent amount of material to play with. Unless you have an intense hatred of 3rd party publishers, pretty soon you'll effectively have enough material to fill a "mythic core rule book" and "mythic bestiary".
Hopefully, Paizo won't just abandon their subsystem the way WotC did, and there will be more support for mythic in the future. That's really what it needs to work.

[Silus]

Beyond Morality if I could make any sense of the ability and how it interacts with stuff

Two words bro:

Paladin Assassin.

[Reinkai]

I'm liking what I'm seeing so far and I'm going to allow it (at least temporarily) in a Carrion Crown campaign that I only have two players in. I think it'll give them a nice power boost, a cool fluff component, and allow me the excuse to make STUPIDLY POWERFUL monsters for them to fight at levels far lower than they should be facing them.

Most of the paths are kind of hit or miss: I love the archmage. Heirophant has some really neat stuff. Trickster is a very odd mix of really useful, really good fluff-wise, and complete crap. Champion and Guardian... eh. No real opinion. Champion has some nice stuff, but it's mostly a buffed melee class.

The feats are VERY hit or miss. There are some feats that are just awful (adding half of your mythic tier to your CMD? Really?), and then other ones that are spectacular.

Mythic spells looked promising at a glance. Some of the lower level ones I was hoping would be revamped, like Color Spray. I can get a level 5 Heavens Oracle casting it like any target with 8 HD or lower had only 1 HD, but the mythic version just boosts the level cap of each effect up by my tier. I realize it's very much a save or lose spell, but the mythic version doesn't add much.

A lot of the spells add a bit of extra damage at the cost of not being able to apply some badass metamagic to them, which makes them even less useful (looking at you, shocking grasp).

Overall, I'm excited to see what my players can do with it.

[Craft (Cheese)]

I imagine a similar breed of people as those who enjoy playing gestalt games, except gestalt tends to even things out a bit if you limit the allowed tiers.

Personally, I'll only be using mythic rules for bosses. And for the mythic vampire template. :smallbiggrin:

Well, Gestalt has a lot of advantages over the Mythic rules, for example:

1. Gestalt rules advance both classes simultaneously through the same leveling mechanics; Mythic tiers use an entirely different advancement system bolted on top of the existing one.

2. Gestalt rules are fairly simple and easy to adjudicate; Mythic rules are extremely complicated and bloated.

3. Gestalt rules serve to let you create weird hybrids that couldn't possibly be made viable with the standard multiclassing rules, giving you lots of extra flexibility in making new character concepts; There's basically no reason to ever take a mythic path that wasn't specifically designed to synergize with your existing class setup, since for the most part the abilities build upon what's already there, giving you basically no ability to make concepts that you couldn't already do with the standard rules.


My final problem with the mythic rules is a problem of representation: Since mythic tiers only serve to make your characters stronger, I'm confused as to what the difference between a mythic tier and a level is actually supposed to be. If you want to make a character more powerful, why not give them more levels?

(Yes, yes, the book has an answer but it's a stupid answer. "Filled with a destiny to do legendary things" my ass. That the PCs are all mary sue ultimate heroes of ultimate destiny has been the default assumption for PF characters since day 1, and every other style of play has received secondary consideration at best. It's just plain redundant.)

[Keneth]

And yet, there are no gestalt concepts that don't turn characters into power bombs unless you're intentionally aiming for it. Inherently that's no different than what mythic offers, more power and more options.

It's basically just power creep. Some like it, some don't.

[Alleran]

My final problem with the mythic rules is a problem of representation: Since mythic tiers only serve to make your characters stronger, I'm confused as to what the difference between a mythic tier and a level is actually supposed to be. If you want to make a character more powerful, why not give them more levels?
Things like saves, attack bonuses and so on are already getting problematic at high levels. Mythic doesn't increase BAB or anything like that. The average mythic tier boost is supposed to be 0.5 of a level, so a Mythic tier 10, 20th level character should be the equivalent of 25th level, which allows them to fight stuff at the Pathfinder cap of CR 30. And one of the problems with Epic is that levels continually increase. There's no "end point" to them.

[Raven777]

I keep hearing how Mythic Vampires are teh awesome but Mythic content is not yet on the PFSRD. Since I think the stuff is OGL nonetheless, anybody mind giving me the down low?

[137beth]

I keep hearing how Mythic Vampires are teh awesome but Mythic content is not yet on the PFSRD. Since I think the stuff is OGL nonetheless, anybody mind giving me the down low?

The PDF I bought from Paizo's store is amenable to copy and pasting, so I guess I'll give it to you (I am 99.9% sure what I am about to do is legal, but I'm not a lawyer...)
It spans two pages so I'll do this in chunks. And I'm not copying the sample statblock since that will destroy the formatting:
CREATING A MYTHIC VAMPIRE
“Mythic vampire” is an acquired template that can be
added to any creature with the vampire template (referred
to hereafter as the base vampire). A mythic vampire uses
the base vampire’s stats and abilities except as noted here.
Mythic Subtype: A mythic vampire gains the mythic
subtype, with a rank equal to half the CR of the base vampire.
A mythic vampire gains additional abilities depending
on the base vampire’s CR instead of the mythic abilities it
would get for having a rank. The mythic vampire gains all
other benefits of having the mythic subtype: ability score
bonuses, bonus hit points, mythic feats, mythic power,
natural armor bonus, and spell resistance increase (if any).
CR: Adjust the base vampire’s CR according to its mythic
rank (this template doesn’t increase the base vampire’s
CR other than from the mythic rank). Note that a mythic
vampire’s abilities on Table 6–2 depend on the base
vampire’s CR, not the final CR of the mythic vampire.
Tier: A vampire with mythic tiers that becomes a mythic
vampire loses its tiers (and all abilities from those tiers)
and gains abilities from the mythic vampire template,
according to the base vampire’s CR.
Negative Energy Focus (Su): A mythic vampire’s energy
drain ability triggers once per successful melee attack with
melee weapons or natural attacks, up to a maximum of once
per round for every 2 mythic ranks the vampire has.
Overcome Weakness: If a mythic vampire begins its turn
in an area of direct sunlight, it is nauseated (rather than
staggered), takes 10 points of damage, and loses its fast
healing ability for that round. The vampire is still destroyed
on the second round. At higher ranks, it can overcome or
ignore other vampire weaknesses or aversions, as follows:
garlic (4th rank), mirrors and holy symbols (6th rank),
invitation (8th rank), running water (10th rank).
Scabrous Claws (Su): As an immediate action, a mythic
vampire can expend one use of mythic power to grow claws
on its hands, allowing it to make claw attacks or slam
attacks. The claw attacks deal the same damage as its slams
(including energy drain) plus 1d6 points of bleed damage.
The claws last for 1 hour or until dismissed by the vampire
as a free action.
Channel Resistance (Su): At 3rd rank, a mythic vampire’s
channel resistance increases to +8. At 6th rank, it increases
to +12. At 9th rank, it increases to +16.
Children of the Eclipse (Su): At 4th rank, a mythic vampire
can use its children of the night ability to call forth bat
swarms, rat swarms, or wolves once per hour instead of once
per day. Once per day, the mythic vampire can use children
of the night to call forth 2d6 ghouls or 1d6+1 shadows. At 7th
rank, once per day the mythic vampire can use children of
the night to call forth 1d6 wraiths or mohrgs.
Mist Shapes (Su): At 5th rank, a mythic vampire can
summon and sculpt mist into realistic shapes as the major
Continues on next page:
image spell. A shape created in this way lasts for as long as
the mythic vampire can see and concentrate upon it. In
areas of particularly dense mist, this ability functions as
mirage arcana instead of major image.
Mastermind (Su): At 6th rank, as a standard action a
mythic vampire can see, hear, and speak through the body
of a creature it has dominated. The mythic vampire can use
this ability indefinitely on one creature at a time, as long as
it and the creature under its control remain on the same
plane. A mythic vampire using this ability can’t
move, but is still aware of its surroundings and
can end this ability as a free action.
Telekinesis (Sp): At 6th rank, a mythic vampire
can expend one use of mythic power to use the
spell telekinesis with a caster level equal
to the mythic vampire’s CR.
Flight (Su): At 7th rank, a mythic
vampire can expend one use of mythic
power as an immediate action to gain a
f ly speed equal to double its base speed
(perfect maneuverability) for 1 hour.
When it activates this ability, the
vampire chooses whether to manifest
bat-like wings or to f loat unnaturally.
If it manifests wings, it gains a bonus
on Intimidate checks equal to its rank.
If it chooses to f loat, it gains a bonus on
Stealth checks equal to its rank.
Create Mythic Spawn: At 8th rank,
a mythic vampire can expend one
use of mythic power when using
create spawn to cause the victim
to rise as undead in 1 hour instead
of 1d4 days. The mythic vampire
can expend two uses of mythic
power when using create spawn
to create a mythic vampire
instead of a vampire spawn
or non-mythic vampire.
Blood Omen (Su): At 9th rank, a mythic vampire can
expend two uses of mythic power as a standard action to
drain blood from all creatures within 30 feet. Each creature
must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the
vampire’s HD + the vampire’s Cha modifier) or be affected by
the vampire’s blood drain ability. The mythic vampire gains
the normal benefits of all blood drained in this manner.
Eclipse (Su): At 10th rank, a mythic vampire
can expend one use of its mythic power to blot
out the power of the sun in a 1-mile radius.
This entire area is affected by the spell deeper
darkness for 1 hour. The mythic vampire’s can
see through this darkness.
Notice that a lot of its abilities depend on Mythic Rank. That is summarized in the table: (not formatted correctly, but whatever)
Base Vampire’s CR Mythic Rank Mythic Abilities
4–5 2nd Negative energy focus, overcome weakness (sunlight), scabrous claws
6–7 3rd Channel resistance +8
8–9 4th Children of the eclipse (ghouls or shadows), overcome weakness (garlic)
10–11 5th Mist shapes
12–13 6th Channel resistance +12, mastermind, overcome weakness (mirrors and holy
symbols), telekinesis
14–15 7th Children of the eclipse (wraiths or mohrgs), flight
16–17 8th Create mythic spawn, overcome weakness (invitation)
18–19 9th Blood omen, channel resistance +16
20+ 10th Eclipse, overcome weakness (running water)
In the table above, the three columns are "base vampire's CR", "Mythic Rank", and "Mythic Abilities". The first column has a two level range, the second has the mythic rank, and the third has the abilities.

[Raven777]

Overcome Weakness: If a mythic vampire begins its turn
in an area of direct sunlight, it is nauseated (rather than
staggered), takes 10 points of damage, and loses its fast
healing ability for that round. The vampire is still destroyed
on the second round.

Isn't that strictly worse than the vanilla sunlight weakness?


Blood Omen (Su): At 9th rank, a mythic vampire can
expend two uses of mythic power as a standard action to
drain blood from all creatures within 30 feet. Each creature
must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the
vampire’s HD + the vampire’s Cha modifier) or be affected by
the vampire’s blood drain ability. The mythic vampire gains
the normal benefits of all blood drained in this manner.

Eclipse (Su): At 10th rank, a mythic vampire
can expend one use of its mythic power to blot
out the power of the sun in a 1-mile radius.
This entire area is affected by the spell deeper
darkness for 1 hour. The mythic vampire’s can
see through this darkness.

:smalleek:

Thanks by the way. I need to go buy these PDFs and go have a peek at the other paths myself, apparently.

[Psyren]

Isn't that strictly worse than the vanilla sunlight weakness?

Man, it sure looks that way. At least Staggered lets you teleport.



:smalleek:

The AoE blood drain is pretty sweet (Kain anyone?) as is the 1-mile Deeper Darkness.

[Keneth]

Isn't that strictly worse than the vanilla sunlight weakness?

Yeah, they screwed it up. This is what it was like in the playtest:

Overcome Weakness A mythic vampire can survive exposure to direct sunlight. Every time a mythic vampire begins its turn in an area of direct sunlight it is nauseated, takes 10 points of damage, and loses its fast healing ability for that round.

You'll notice a distinct lack of that "second round" line which was tacked on in the final version without giving it any thought whatsoever.

There's plenty of things they've managed to mess up in the book, but hopefully we'll get some errata.

[CockroachTeaParty]

After reading over the MA rules (they're on the Pathfinder SRD now if you search for them), it looks like they could benefit certain styles of play or pacing preferences. The ability to completely heal after a full rest, or to regain daily abilities after a short rest would be good for cinematic, time-crunched scenarios, adventures, or even campaigns.

Of course, there's lots of things that I'm having trouble understanding, like Perfect Preparation. So a wizard/witch just knows all of their spells innately? Do they have to spend money to learn new spells?

Beyond Morality looks like it could be hilarious. You could play a hyper-good character who can raise armies of the undead, and apparently suffer no negative consequences.