How good is an Ogre mage character exactly?

[Pinkie Pyro]

I've recently been trying to make a scythe wielding uber-charger, possibly with a little sneak attack on the side, and it seems that ogre mage would be a wonderful race to play, save for one tragic flaw

+7 LA.

+7 LA for +10 str, +6 con, and int wis and cha bonuses as well, EX regeneration, SU flight, a few spell like abilities, including at will invisiblity, 10 FT reach, shape change at will, AC bonus, and SR. the 5 racial hit die can be removed with negative levels, so I don't have to worry about those. But would a +7 LA really be worth it, or is there a cheaper alternative?

[Taveena]

The +7 level adjustment means that in spite of the amazing stats you'll be a horribly long way behind any other character - hell, you'll have less than /half/ the HD if you start at ECL 12, and you can only even /begin/ buying them off when you have /twenty-one class levels/. So ECL 33.

A 12th level wizard will have, assuming 14 con and average dice rolls, have about 55 health. An ECL 12 Ogre Mage with the same base stats will have 20 con, and thus 51 health. Your save bonuses will be +4/+1/+1 against a Wizard's +4/+4/+8. And, of course, you'll be 12 class levels behind.

It's... not really feasible, unfortunately, unless your DM is handing out massive amounts of LA for free.

EDIT: Also, even if they /are/ removed, you have to take levels of Giant until you're back at 5.

[Yogibear41]

This: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.msg322773#msg322773

maybe of some interest to you, if not the ogre mage specifically maybe something else within its contents.

[Pinkie Pyro]

The +7 level adjustment means that in spite of the amazing stats you'll be a horribly long way behind any other character - hell, you'll have less than /half/ the HD if you start at ECL 12, and you can only even /begin/ buying them off when you have /twenty-one class levels/. So ECL 33.

A 12th level wizard will have, assuming 14 con and average dice rolls, have about 55 health. An ECL 12 Ogre Mage with the same base stats will have 20 con, and thus 51 health. Your save bonuses will be +4/+1/+1 against a Wizard's +4/+4/+8. And, of course, you'll be 12 class levels behind.

It's... not really feasible, unfortunately, unless your DM is handing out massive amounts of LA for free.

EDIT: Also, even if they /are/ removed, you have to take levels of Giant until you're back at 5.

starting with a base of 18 con gives you 24, so you'd have more HP, plus regeneration. And what do you mean i'd take levels of giant?

[Taveena]

Yes, I was just giving an example in comparison. The Wizard still comes ahead if he /also/ has base 18 con - point is all things being equal, even the squishiest class is less squishy than you.

By 'take levels of giant', I mean that if you /are/ level drained and lose your racial hit-dice, you'll have to gain the racial hit dice again before you can take class levels.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Yes, I was just giving an example in comparison. The Wizard still comes ahead if he /also/ has base 18 con - point is all things being equal, even the squishiest class is less squishy than you.

By 'take levels of giant', I mean that if you /are/ level drained and lose your racial hit-dice, you'll have to gain the racial hit dice again before you can take class levels.

Where does it state that? I've never heard that rule before.

[Dessembrae]

starting with a base of 18 con gives you 24, so you'd have more HP, plus regeneration. And what do you mean i'd take levels of giant?

Starting with a base 18 con, the wizard will still have more HP than you. In fact the margin would be greater the higher the base score.


If you remove your 5 racial hit dice (which can be thought of as Giant levels, as the benefits of racial hit dice depend on your type) with negative levels, you have to take those levels in Giant again before you can take other class levels. All monster classes work this way, I believe. I think it originally was stated in Savage Species but is reiterated in the Savage Progressions articles on WotC's site.

A big thing that hasn't been mentioned (at least when I started typing this post) is the HUGE hit to your BAB. A 16th level fighter will have 4 attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1. An ogre mage with 4 levels in fighter (an ecl 16 character) has two attacks at +7/+2. The strength bonus does not come close to making up for this.


Ogre Mage is much more playable in a gestalt setting, where you can take Ogre Mage on one side and class levels on the other, so that way you don't wind up with crippled BAB, saves, and class features.

[TuggyNE]

I've recently been trying to make a scythe wielding uber-charger, possibly with a little sneak attack on the side, and it seems that ogre mage would be a wonderful race to play, save for one tragic flaw

+7 LA.

+7 LA for +10 str, +6 con, and int wis and cha bonuses as well, EX regeneration, SU flight, a few spell like abilities, including at will invisiblity, 10 FT reach, shape change at will, AC bonus, and SR. the 5 racial hit die can be removed with negative levels, so I don't have to worry about those. But would a +7 LA really be worth it, or is there a cheaper alternative?

RHD drain is generally considered pretty stinky cheese, so keep that in mind.

But no, ogre mages are not worth it at all; the SLAs are weak, irrelevant, or too limited in use to bother with at that expense, the stat adjustments are comparatively insignificant, humanoid/giant change shape is just handy, not amazing, and even the regeneration isn't worth such a horrible LA. The SR is just about useless, since it doesn't scale and is a flat 19 at whatever level you get it (even with the aforementioned cheese, SR 19 at level 8 is only decent, and at level 12 it's already pathetic).

To put things into perspective, they're weak even as monsters, they haven't got much that's PC-useful only, and their LA is pretty punishing. So there's not a lot you can get out of that.

[Pinkie Pyro]

so, screwed by a rule from a splatbook... I see. oh well...

[Taveena]

I can /not/ remember! I'm fairly certain it /is/ a rule, though - I could be wrong, and your DM might rule differently. Even if that /is/ the case, though, seven levels puts you a horribly long way behind everyone else - and everything at the CR of the party is either going to be unable to touch you, or will steamroll you utterly.

[HunterOfJello]

A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class.

This is part of the opening to the Sample Monster Classes section in Savage Species. Since Ogre Mage is listed in that same section and possesses 12 levels, you need to take all 12 levels before taking a level of another class. So, if you had all 12 levels, then lost 11 to level drain you would still need to retake those 11 before you could take levels in another class.


~~~~~

If you want to play an Ogre spellcaster, you would be better off playing an Ogre with the Primordial Giant template. (Or just play a Half-Giant with the template instead.) You can find the template in Secrets of Xen'drik.





Note: While the monsters in Savage Species are restricted by this progression rule, it is worth noting that the Online Savage Species Progression races and templates are not.

[Pinkie Pyro]

That is seriously one of the most stupid rules I've ever come across in DnD...

The build i want doesn't need to be an ogre at all, but it's abilities fit the fluff almost perfectly... it's just held back by the LA and RHD. maybe i can talk to my DM about dropping some stuff for less LA, or something. idk.

[Gwendol]

Just drop the LA, it's one of the dumbest rules in the game anyway.

Ogre Mage's are notoriously weak for their CR, and as such are not a solid foundation for building a character.

[Piggy Knowles]

Just make one yourself? I bet that you can make one pretty easily that's far more effective than an actual ogre mage.

Let's look at the component parts, and some ways to get access to them. This is not an exhaustive list, just me spitballing before work.

1. GIANT TYPE

Half-giant (XPH)
Half-ogre (RoD)
Half-minotaur (Drag)


2. CONSISTENT FLY SPEED WITHOUT WINGS

Overland Flight spell
A myriad of magic items (google Ernir's Necessary Items for a list)
Airstep Sandals (MoI)


3. SLAs

Just get them as spells - all of them appear on the Sor/Wiz list
Warlock or DFI invocations can actually cover just about all of them


4. CHANGE SHAPE

Alter Self spell
Thrall of Juiblex, Slime Lord and Mountebank all get Alter Self at will
Dragonfire Adept invocation


5. REGENERATION

Fake it with Fast Healing: persistent Mass Lesser Vigor, Warshaper, etc.
Trollshape spell


My inclination would be to make a Primordial Half-Giant Dragonfire Adept, with a dip into Warshaper for the Strength boost and fast healing. A half-giant DMM-persist Chameleon would work well, also. (Use Human Heritage or the RoD human heritage sidebar to qualify for Able Learner.)

And again, this is just me spending about five minutes of thinking on how I'd fake an ogre mage without having to take the terrible monster class. I'd imagine there are far easier ways, or better fits for some of their abilities.

[Greenish]

Half-minotaur, in addition to being poorly thought-out, doesn't actually change creature type.

[Psyren]

Slightly off-topic, but the PF Ogre Mage (an Oni) has some very interesting changes made to it.

Anyway, that version has no LA if you wanted to give it a try. They also have Charm Monster and Deep Slumber instead of Charm Person and Sleep, respectively.

[Segev]

I like PF's original take on how to do balance of PC-monsters: Use the CR as the total ECL. No buy-off of LA or anything.

It's still not perfect, but tends to be closer in value, I think. Ask your DM about using the CR of 8?

If that still seems too weak, you could always ask if the 5 HD of Giant can come with all the Ogre Mage's toys as "class features."

[Piggy Knowles]

Half-minotaur, in addition to being poorly thought-out, doesn't actually change creature type.

My mistake - like I said, I was operating off memory. I'll take it off the list.

[Yogibear41]

Troll Blooded Feat gives Regen 1, and then a feat from one of the fiendish codex books(number 2 I believe) increases your existing regen by 1 each time. So you don't have to "fake" regen if you don't want too, and while I believe it is a regional feat for humans, whos to say that your half-giant isn't also half human? It actually makes alot of sense considering trolls are giants to begin with and you supposedly inherit some of their regenerative powers.

[Taveena]

Could you take a Half-ogre template and thus still count as a human for the purposes of qualification?

[Piggy Knowles]

IIRC, half-ogre is a race, not a template. RoD offers an alternate rule for human descended half races counting as human; otherwise, the Human Heritage feat should do the trick.

[Taveena]

Looked it up - there's a psionic Race Half-Ogre in one of the psionic books and a Half-Ogre template in the same Dragon magazine as the half-minotaur. The latter would allow you to qualify for troll blooded if you applied it to a human of the appropriate region.

[Piggy Knowles]

I was thinking of the race from Races of Destiny, which I believe is the latest official source, although I wouldn't swear to it.

[Greenish]

Looked it up - there's a psionic Race Half-Ogre in one of the psionic booksNot in any of the 1st party ones. Well, either of the first party ones. You're thinking half-giant.


I was thinking of the race from Races of Destiny, which I believe is the latest official source, although I wouldn't swear to it.Technically, I think a race wouldn't replace template unless it specifically said so, but good luck getting that to fly.

Also, half-ogre won't change the creature's type, either, and is almost as silly as half-minotaur (the racial features are pretty meh, but it has the dreaded reference to Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by Size).

[ericgrau]

Monsters as characters are actually pretty well set up for core or a similar level of optimization. The high stats, flight and at will invisibility make up for most of the LA & RHD. The first problem comes when you start optimizing and your levels become worth more. The second problem is when some of his other misc abilities, which account for the remaining 2-3 of the LA, start going obsolete: mainly his 1/day SLAs and his non-scaling SR. Eventually his invisibility and flight will be semi-obsolete too, but they are never truly useless.

If you're in love with the race then I would simply beg the DM to make up for the pitfalls. Does your group not optimize a lot? Then you're good to go at first. But make sure you exploit his abilities and are always flying & invisible. And can grapple, trip, and/or reach-weapon. Scout ahead for the party and open most fights against 3+ foes with a cone of cold, before allies are in the blast area. If your group does optimize a bit more than what a core character could do, figure out roughly how much 12 optimized levels are worth compared to regular levels, and subtract the difference from the LA. Either way, as you gain levels you should be allowed to ditch 2-3 LA (or 2-3 more LA) as the 1/day SLAs and SR become obsolete. Maybe 3-4 LA by party level 20 as limitless flight and defeating invisibility become common PC superpowers for every class.

If you only want a magicalish ogre then yes there are other ways. But at-will flight & invisibility and crazy brute stats (esp. for tripping and breaking stuff) are hard to get. If you like what he does and not only what he is, then I wouldn't abandon the concept as a victim of heavy optimization. I'd talk to the DM and adjust it to fit alongside heavy optimization. Or made to match whatever level of optimization you guys use.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Slightly off-topic, but the PF Ogre Mage (an Oni) has some very interesting changes made to it.

Anyway, that version has no LA if you wanted to give it a try. They also have Charm Monster and Deep Slumber instead of Charm Person and Sleep, respectively.

this is exactly what i needed, thank you.

[Blackhawk748]

Id say LA +4 with about 2 RHD would be fair, as a lvl 6 character is about equal in the schenanigans they can do. Id say just drop the SR as it doesnt scale and thats what freaks out most DMs.