(PF) gunslinger does x10 damage than other PCs - does this check out?

[Analias]

Gunslinger in a campaign I GM does easily 10 times more damage than our fighter, cavalier and other martial characters at some times. Do his explanations check out? I've never played gunslinger and am unsure about the rules and which feats apply.

http://i.imgur.com/o7QA92d.png

[Ravens_cry]

You are going to have to do a similar breakdown for the other characters to explain what you mean.

[Hunter Noventa]

He can't make that many attacks in a round, per the PRD:



It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm.


Emphasis mine.

It should take him two full rounds to reload the double musket after firing ONCE, even with Rapid Reload, because that only reduces it to a standard action.

At most, he could make two separate shots using extra BaB or Rapid Shot, due to having the Double Musket. If he's firing both at once at the same time, there's an additional penalty.


EDIT:
Upon examination of the Musket Master archetype, his reloading is reduced to a move action, but that's still per barrel. It's impossible to fire an early firearm more than once in a round, essentially.

[Ravens_cry]

He can't make that many attacks in a round, per the PRD:



Emphasis mine.

It should take him two full rounds to reload the double musket after firing ONCE, even with Rapid Reload, because that only reduces it to a standard action.
Musket Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master), third level ability.

At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm.

[Hunter Noventa]

Musket Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master), third level ability.

Yeah I just noticed that. That's still a move action to reload as I noted above.

[Fax Celestis]

That is one expensive attack routine. You'd better be making him pay for his ammunition.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah I just noticed that. That's still a move action to reload as I noted above.
Rapid Reload+Alchemical cartridges.

[Snowbluff]

Gunslingers worth their salt can make their own ammo for much cheaper.

Rapid Reload, Alchemical Charges, and Lightning Reload (Favored Deed).

Or you can just Quick Draw a fresh musket. This is much easier at this level.

It doesn't help that guns are touch attacks at the first increment.

EDIT: Forgot about Fast Musket. :smalltongue:

[BRC]

That is one expensive attack routine. You'd better be making him pay for his ammunition.

Six shots each round using alchemical cartridges would come out to 72gp per full attack.

[Hunter Noventa]

Rapid Reload+Alchemical cartridges.


Gunslingers worth their salt can make their own ammo for much cheaper.

Rapid Reload, Alchemical Charges, and Lightning Reload (Favored Deed).

Or you can just Quick Draw a fresh musket. This is much easier at this level.

It doesn't help that guns are touch attacks at the first increment.

EDIT: Forgot about Fast Musket. :smalltongue:

You can only use Lightning Reload on a single barrel once per round though, so that would only be three shots.

let's actually parse it out.

To make more than one attack, you have to make a full attack action. With a double musket, that nets you two attacks. You weapon is now empty and must be reloaded.

Fast Musket + Rapid Reload + Lightning Reload lets you load a single barrel once per round as a free action, so you have one more shot.

But can you interrupt your own full attack with a free action?

If yes, congrats you get one additional shot.
If no, you're done with your full attack when you start reloading.

[Snowbluff]

You can only use Lightning Reload on a single barrel once per round though, so that would only be three shots. Yeah, I edited in Fast Musket.

The Fast Musket Deed, the Cartridges, and Rapid Reload all stack to free action reloading. :smalltongue:

[Hunter Noventa]

Yeah, I edited in Fast Musket.

The Fast Musket Deed, the Cartridges, and Rapid Reload all stack to free action reloading. :smalltongue:

Do they? Let me double check cartridges.

EDIT: Wow they do stack. That's pretty crazy. But also VERY expensive.

The question remains on how much of a free action you can perform in the midst of your own attack.

[Drelua]

What do your other players look like? Assuming this guys got some way to reload that fast, he's got an average of 123 damage per round, which would be pretty good if he could hit with all, or even most, of those attack, which is a pretty big if. That's a lot of attack penalties he's wracking up. If your fighter still can't compare to that damage, he must be using a pretty weak combat style. If he's sword-and-boarding, you might want to drop a decent greatsword for him and recommend power attack. That should get his damage up quite a bit, and probably with a much better attack bonus.

[Fax Celestis]

Six shots each round using alchemical cartridges would come out to 72gp per full attack.

...which can rack up very, very quickly.

[Snowbluff]

What's the cost to Craft an Alchemical Cartridge?

[Dr. Yes]

There is some ambiguity here, but I think your player is misinterpreting the double-barreled musket thing. It says that they can be "fired at once as the same attack", which would give him +8/+8/+3 at 2d12+15 (adding enhancement bonus twice) damage on each hit.

[kabreras]

Where do you get your amos money ?

Cause with what you spend on them the whole group will outgear you prety fast.

[Ravens_cry]

...which can rack up very, very quickly.
Indeed. Get your hands on an item of Abundant Ammunition, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/abundant-ammunition) stat. It will pay for itself in a few fights.

[Snowbluff]

No seriously, let's stat this out.

The cost of the charges when being crafted by the gunslinger.

Times the number of encounters to level (10 ish, assuming each encounter is combat).

Times 3 (rounds per encounter).

That's the cost per level, assuming he only full attacks, rather that repositioning for touch attacks.

EDIT: That items looks good.

[Fax Celestis]

No seriously, let's stat this out.

The cost of the charges when being crafted by the gunslinger.

Times the number of encounters to level (10 ish, assuming each encounter is combat).

Times 3 (rounds per encounter).

That's the cost per level, assuming he only full attacks, rather that repositioning for touch attacks.

EDIT: That items looks good.

Alchemical cartridges are 50% cost to craft for gunslingers with the Gunsmithing feat. So 36gp per full attack. We're looking at, according to your formula, 1080gp per level on ammunition. Assuming he has the opportunity and downtime to craft ammunition, too.

[Spuddles]

Is he rolling for his gun blowing up? With all those attacks using alchemical cartridges he should be rolling for that quite a bit.


What do your other players look like? Assuming this guys got some way to reload that fast, he's got an average of 123 damage per round, which would be pretty good if he could hit with all, or even most, of those attack, which is a pretty big if. That's a lot of attack penalties he's wracking up. If your fighter still can't compare to that damage, he must be using a pretty weak combat style. If he's sword-and-boarding, you might want to drop a decent greatsword for him and recommend power attack. That should get his damage up quite a bit, and probably with a much better attack bonus.

If the firearm attacks are made within 30ft, they're resolved as touch attacks.


What's the cost to Craft an Alchemical Cartridge?

1/5 market price. So a full attack routine will cost 20gp if he crafts his own ammo.

[Analias]

You guys are right in that he combines Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges and Fast musket

Assuming this guys got some way to reload that fast, he's got an average of 123 damage per round, which would be pretty good if he could hit with all, or even most, of those attack, which is a pretty big if.
Aiming against touch AC with an attack bonus of +8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 means he's going to hit against most enemies at his level.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Yeah I just noticed that. That's still a move action to reload as I noted above.Alchemical cartridges further lowers the reload time to a free action.

Also, they don't cost 72 G per full attack. Gunslingers make all gun ammunition at 1/10 cost, and all alchemical ammunition at 1/2 cost. It only costs him 36 Gold per round using alchemical cartridges.

If he's clever, he can also make gunpowder barrels for 100 Gold and sell them for somewhere between 500 and 1000 Gold. Earning him 400 to 900 Gold profit every day.

So yeah, he can definitely afford that.

[Hunter Noventa]

What's the cost to Craft an Alchemical Cartridge?

6gp for a basic cartridge, 1 day of work per 1000gp of ammo.

[Berenger]

Wow. That musket is ridiculous, even for a fantasy game. :smalleek:

[Fax Celestis]

1/5 market price. So a full attack routine will cost 20gp if he crafts his own ammo.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunsmithing

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).

[Hunter Noventa]

You guys are right in that he combines Rapid Reload, alchemical cartridges and Fast musket

Aiming against touch AC with an attack bonus of +8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 means he's going to hit against most enemies at his level.

What level is he? Is that his basic BaB, or the attack bonus after the penalties?

And regarding misfires, at 13th level, which he may every well be, he stops getting misfires at all.

[BRC]

Alchemical cartridges further lowers the reload time to a free action.

Also, they don't cost 72 G per full attack. Gunslingers make all gun ammunition at 1/10 cost, and all alchemical ammunition at 1/2 cost. It only costs him 36 Gold per round using alchemical cartridges.

If he's clever, he can also make gunpowder barrels for 100 Gold and sell them for somewhere between 500 and 1000 Gold. Earning him 400 to 900 Gold profit every day.

So yeah, he can definitely afford that.

provided he spends his time sitting in a workshop somewhere making gunpowder rather than adventuring.

And 36 gold per round can still stack up. If he does 3 full attacks in a single combat that's over 100gp per combat, which can really build up.

[Analias]

What level is he? Is that his basic BaB, or the attack bonus after the penalties?

And regarding misfires, at 13th level, which he may every well be, he stops getting misfires at all.

That's attack bonus after penalties, at level 8.

[Ravens_cry]

Wow. That musket is ridiculous, even for a fantasy game. :smalleek:

And how many hoops did he have to get there, compared to a bow user?

[Squirrel_Dude]

provided he spends his time sitting in a workshop somewhere making gunpowder rather than adventuring. Not to tee of on you, but I hate this meme in regards to the gunslinger. Not to mention the fact that it only works when crafting rules require multiples roles. Seriously, how long does it really take a party to let someone take a week to craft something? 1 minutes? 2 minutes? It's only: "We were injured. We take a week to relax and buy stuff. I work to make myself X item. *Rolls dice* Success. What did you guys buy?"

Done. That's when it takes a week. You know how long it takes a gunslinger to do this? 1 day. No rolls. Gunpowder isn't even that difficult of a substance to make. You don't need any heavy anvils or hammers or forges or workshops or magical sanctums you have to drag with you to make it. You rest for a day, make 1000 Gold worth of gunpowder and either use it or sell it for profit. Profit for the party, who is probably glad to have portable gold manufactory.

Sidenote: If the gunslinger does 120 something damage, the fights over. He's not full attacking again. He killed it. Whatever you're fighting that require him to use all 6 attacks is dead.

[Hunter Noventa]

And how many hoops did he have to get there, compared to a bow user?

Many hoops, some of them expensive. His main advantages over a bow are touch attacks (but only at close range), twice as many shots, a higher base damage die, and dex to damage.

I think the main difference is that it's a class ability giving him dex to damage, where as far as I know, no similar ability exists for other ranged weaponry.

So everything he's doing is technically legal. But he's only got a 20ft range where he's effective. That means anything that he's fighting can charge him, or stay further away. Granted, against distant opponents he likely fires single shots rather than double-barreled action, but that will just go to partially negate the distance penalty.

[Roog]

Seriously, how long does it really take a party to let someone take a week to craft something?

Potentially quite a while. Once one player decides that their character stops to do something for a week, the other players need then stop and think how their characters will spend the week, and then their weeks will also need to be resolved.

If the characters split up for their down-time activity, it can easily take half an hour to resolve, although that time will be reduced if downtime occurs regularly. If any of the character's activities involve planning or interaction then it can take longer.

[Alefiend]

Even if reloading the firearm is a free action, the GM is within rights (and is expected) to set a reasonable limit on how many free actions a character can take in one round.


Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Note that this doesn't apply to archery. Reloading a bow is explicitly called out as not an action, and is part of making the attack.


Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.

[Segev]

Chiming in that he can probably free-load his gun mid-full attack, because else quick draw couldn't let a dagger-thrower throw more than two daggers per round. Drawing the third would end the full attack, despite being a free action.


Gunslingers do a lot of damage, but they pay for it. I would advise helping the fighter up his game; he should be able to use techniques to be more effective if he wants to. What is the fighter's schtick? Fighting style of choice?

[olentu]

Even if reloading the firearm is a free action, the GM is within rights (and is expected) to set a reasonable limit on how many free actions a character can take in one round.



Note that this doesn't apply to archery. Reloading a bow is explicitly called out as not an action, and is part of making the attack.

Isn't it still a free action to draw an arrow even though using the arrow as part of an attack is not, or is that is one of those fiddly changes pathfinder made.

[Alefiend]

Isn't it still a free action to draw an arrow even though using the arrow as part of an attack is not, or is that is one of those fiddly changes pathfinder made.

No, unless I misunderstand you. This rule is what lets selfbow archers make full attacks, so it's been there since 3.0 dnd.

[olentu]

No, unless I misunderstand you. This rule is what lets selfbow archers make full attacks, so it's been there since 3.0 dnd.

Er, I am not exactly sure what you are saying. But the good news is that I stopped being lazy and looked the answer up a little while after I asked the question. It turns out that, provided one can trust the company's online reference document, drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

[TuggyNE]

No, unless I misunderstand you. This rule is what lets selfbow archers make full attacks, so it's been there since 3.0 dnd.

Free action drawing is quite enough to allow archers/Quick Draw throwers to do their thing. That's how it's been since 3.0, to my knowledge; it is certainly how 3.5 works, and it's also how PF works.

[gr8artist]

As someone pointed out earlier, I believe the two-barreled musket still counts as one attack when both are fired. You make one attack roll, add precision damage once, but deal 2d12+2x(enhancement) for the gun's damage. You still pay for both bullets.

Also... It's a gun. It's supposed to be inherently better than any other weapon. The gunslinger specializes in dealing really high damage at medium range. What's his health and AC? Have something charge/surprise/ambush/rob him.
There are spells that specifically target guns, and none of them are happy-fun times. Playing a gun user is like building a glass cannon with an explosive device inside.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm still waiting on the breakdowns on the other builds for how the gunslinger is supposed to be doing 'x10' the damage of the other PC's.

[Equinox]

Gunslinger in a campaign I GM does easily 10 times more damage than our fighter, cavalier and other martial characters at some times. Do his explanations check out? I've never played gunslinger and am unsure about the rules and which feats apply.

http://i.imgur.com/o7QA92d.png

I don't know anything about Pathfinder rules, but I know people.

The player went in a lot of depth about his attack/damage breakdown, yet said absolutely nothing about reloading. This is a clear sign that he's doing something to bend, maybe even break, the rules on reloading, and he knows it. His attempt to focus your attention on his attack/damage bonuses is smoke and mirrors.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I don't know anything about Pathfinder rules, but I know people.

The player went in a lot of depth about his attack/damage breakdown, yet said absolutely nothing about reloading. This is a clear sign that he's doing something to bend, maybe even break, the rules on reloading, and he knows it.

He's a musket master so he reloads a two-handed musket as a one handed firearm, normally its a full-round action per barrel, the alternate class feature reduced it to a standard action

*Rapid Reload reduces this to a move action
*Alchemical Cartridge reduces this to a free action at the cost of an increased misfire chance. (and with a double barrel musket it be 5 from firing both barrels at once)

[Equinox]

He's a musket master so he reloads a two-handed musket as a one handed firearm, normally its a full-round action per barrel, the alternate class feature reduced it to a standard action

*Rapid Reload reduces this to a move action
*Alchemical Cartridge reduces this to a free action at the cost of an increased misfire chance. (and with a double barrel musket it be 5 from firing both barrels at once)

So basically he should have a 25% chance of misfire each time, and that's what he's been ignoring?

[Smiling-Jack]

Gunslingers are open to this hackery though. My favourite version was my friends sniper that utilised the dead eye shot deed to full effect. Level 11, so I think that he was a bit higher than your guy, but this trick only gets more ridiculous the lower level you are.

http://s16.postimg.org/x8jxfphdh/Deadshot.png

At first glimpse this is very underwhelming but hear me out, first of all he was nearing 20 to hit even with rapid shot on. Secondly haste which threw him up to 4 shots (I thought it was a bit strange that rapid shot and haste helped him take this one awesome shot but if you think about it, the ability to take a shot four times quicker means that you can gain more benefit from taking a shot slower). finally, and here's the big one, improved critical and crit focus, giving him the oh-so important 19-20 crit range. Again, so-what you might say, but he gets four tries at this crit, and remember kids if any shot crits they all do. He had 35% chance to get a crit every time he fired a dead shot off. However, he did only shoot once every other round.

Edit: i forgot to mention his biggest weakness, deflect arrows, instantly useless!

[Lord Vukodlak]

Gunslingers are open to this hackery though. My favourite version was my friends sniper that utilised the dead eye shot deed to full effect. Level 11, so I think that he was a bit higher than your guy, but this trick only gets more ridiculous the lower level you are.

Dead-Eye Shot only cares about base attack bonus, haste and rapid shot do nothing.


So basically he should have a 25% chance of misfire each time, and that's what he's been ignoring?

Well I suppose its debatable if misfire increase from using alchemical cartridges in both barrels would apply twice instead of once to each barrel but I know how I'd rule it. And his weapon may be +1 reliable which would reduce the misfire chance by 1. So really his misfire chance may only be 15%

[AttilaTheGeek]

So really his misfire chance may only be 15%

Even at a misfire chance of only 15% per shot, he still has a 62%* chance to have a misfire on any given round.

Edit to add: If he gets an additional attack from Haste or the like, the chance of misfiring at least once goes up to 68%**.

*15% miss chance means 85% chance to not misfire. That means there's an 0.85^6=37.7% chance for them all to not misfire, and subtracting that from 1 gives a 62.3% chance for at least one of them to misfire.

**1-0.85^7=0.679.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Aren't there also gunslinger abilities that allow you to completely negate a misfire chance if you want to, using grit points? I forget if they're only for the mysterious stranger archetype, or a general ability.

[Ravens_cry]

Aren't there also gunslinger abilities that allow you to completely negate a misfire chance if you want to, using grit points? I forget if they're only for the mysterious stranger archetype, or a general ability.
Vanilla Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger#TOC-Deeds) gets it as a standard action if you have at least one grit point, a move equivalent if you spend one. Still fairly hefty action economy cost.

[Starbuck_II]

So a Fighter could do:
2d6 (minimum 2)
Str +9 (22 Str at level 8 is possible with a +2 Str item and 2 hander so 1.5)
+1 weapon
+1 hit/dam from training
+2 hit/dam Dueling Gloves
+2 Weapon Specialization
PA: -0/+9 damage
Unlike Gun dude no penalty from Power Attack: furious Focus

=minimum 24/rd

2/rd (BAB attacks)
=minimum 48/rd

So without haste he deals 48 minimum/rd.

1/2 of Gun dude, but Gun dude is bleeding gp with every shot.

[Hunter Noventa]

Aren't there also gunslinger abilities that allow you to completely negate a misfire chance if you want to, using grit points? I forget if they're only for the mysterious stranger archetype, or a general ability.

There's one for the Musket Master archetype, at 13th level they're immune to misfire for two-handed firearms, but it's hard to say what level this guy is.

[Ravens_cry]

There's one for the Musket Master archetype, at 13th level they're immune to misfire for two-handed firearms, but it's hard to say what level this guy is.
Actually, we can, as the write up mentions Deadly Aim being at -3+6, which means they are at 12th level minimum.

[Tengu_temp]

Even though it was stated outright that they're level 8.

Sounds to me like this guy is good at optimization AND is breaking a few minor rules to his advantage, AND everyone else is pretty bad at optimization. 12 average damage per round (10% of this guy, who deals 123 if all attacks hit) on level 8 is, frankly, pretty pathetic. Although a total attack bonus of +8 on level 8 is pretty pathetic as well - unless I miss something in regards to how guns work, this guy misses more than he hits against CR-appropriate enemies.

[gartius]

Sounds to me like this guy is good at optimization AND is breaking a few minor rules to his advantage, AND everyone else is pretty bad at optimization. 12 average damage per round (10% of this guy, who deals 123 if all attacks hit) on level 8 is, frankly, pretty pathetic. Although a total attack bonus of +8 on level 8 is pretty pathetic as well - unless I miss something in regards to how guns work, this guy misses more than he hits against CR-appropriate enemies.

guns at close range hit touch AC-so while a mid attack bonus thanks to all his penalties he should hit most of the time

[Lord Vukodlak]

A ninth level fighter in my PF group is heavily invested in archery, I'll try and see if I can rebuild what he does from memory, he's an elf with 18 or 20 dexterity(with gear) and I believe 14 strength.

Weapon Focus: Longbow
Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Rapid-Shot
Manyshot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final)(PF version of the feat is quite different then 3.5)
Weapon Training 2(in bows of course)
Point Blank
Greater Weapon Focus.
+1 Magic Weapon.
Bracers of Archery, Lesser (+1 to hit)
Deadly-Aim

His attack routine presuming all apply (+21/+16) -5 for Deadly-Aim and Rapid Shot.
+16/+16/+16/+11 for 1d8+14 damage. Of course these aren't touch attacks but the higher number should let him hit just about as well as the gunslinger. He also has two less attacks in the round and deals less damage per hit.


Unlike Gun dude no penalty from Power Attack: furious Focus
That's only one the first attack.

Now I've been looking over the archtype and while many of its features work for double-barreled muskets some do not. Its bonus feat in rapid-reload is to muskets not double barreled muskets. They are only proficient in muskets by default.(not double barreled). Or any other type of firearm except muskets.
So did he remember to take exotic weapon prof(firearms) and rapid-reload(double-barreled muskets)

[Hruken]

They are only proficient in muskets by default.(not double barreled). Or any other type of firearm except muskets.

Not true. Musket masters are proficient with all two handed firearms, and only two handed firearms. It is just that they can only start with a musket as their first weapon.

You are right about the rapid reload though.