Not exactly human

[Illsbane]

There have been hints and mutterings for a while that Haley Starshine is 'not exactly human', and that this was partially foreshadowed by Sabine, nominally her evil opposite, being explicitly other than human.

So... speculate, argue your case: What could Haley be, if not 100% human?

A while ago, I had the silly theory that she could be part-Celestial, because of little Haley's comment that "her mommy had gone to Heaven". Of course, this was before we saw that the late Mrs. Starshine had in fact been shot to death in the foul streets of Greysky City. Still... Maybe?

[Roland Itiative]

If Sabine's race is any evidence for Haley being non-human, then Thog is evidence for Roy being non-human too. Both make pretty much as much sense as the other (which is, to say, not much sense at all).

[littlebum2002]

If Sabine is not half-human, then her opposite should be fully human.

[is_Wayside]

Part dragon.
She's related to the Draketooths, and the familicide didn't kill her because it couldn't kill Ian - after all, he was in a place where magic couldn't kill anything, considering it was a magic-free zone.

Yup. Probably not, but still.

[Kish]

Haley is 78% human.

The other 22% is also human.

[Roland Itiative]

Part dragon.
She's related to the Draketooths, and the familicide didn't kill her because it couldn't kill Ian - after all, he was in a place where magic couldn't kill anything, considering it was a magic-free zone.

Epic magic can find its way. Just like when Darth V broke into the Cloistered Azure City/Gobbotopia with a teleport spell, something that should be impossible. And that's even though Cloister is also an epic spell, which the anti-magic field in the Bleedingham prison probably isn't.

I wouldn't say there's no chance of the anti-magic field blocking Familicide... but it's a slim chance, I think.

[GSFB]

I believe Haley's secret was that she was not exactly a good girl.

[Cuthalion]

Haley is 78% human.

The other 22% is also human.

Well done. :smalltongue:

[Chantelune]

Part dragon.
She's related to the Draketooths, and the familicide didn't kill her because it couldn't kill Ian - after all, he was in a place where magic couldn't kill anything, considering it was a magic-free zone.

Yup. Probably not, but still.

I'm pretty sure the Giant dismissed the theory about Haley being in any way related to the Draketooth.

[Giggling Ghast]

She's a changeling.

[Warren Dew]

Haley's Intellect looks like an elf, so she may be part elf.

[Dwy]

She's obviously half-MiTD, and we all know what means.

[Fish]

What evidence is there that Haley isn't entirely human?

As far as I know, none. Rich once hinted that there is a reason why Haley was opposites with Sabine, which he couldn't reveal; and Haley had a cut-off confession like like, "I'm not exactly what you call..." That's it. Not exactly worthy of Clarence Darrow.

I figure Haley is Sabine's opposite because, like Sabine, she is (now) in a relationship with Elan, as Sabine is with Nale. At the time of the Giant's hint, he hadn't given away that plot point, so I think that's the best matchup. Also, Haley's cut-off confession could be literally anything. "A natural redhead." "Heterosexual." "A virgin." Anything at all.

What hints have we seen that Haley has unexplained powers, inhuman stats, or supernatural abilities? None of which I'm aware. If Rich wanted to suggest Haley is not human, then the hints have been subtle indeed. He has not suggested the presence of a mystery to be solved.

What about Haley's comment about being a half-dragon? Doubtful, at best. It is not backed up by any specific hints or abilities.

[FlawedParadigm]

Sabine is with Nale.

I find your lack of verb tense...disturbing.

[factotum]

What evidence is there that Haley isn't entirely human?

Practically none--pretty sure the entire thing started when one of Haley's cryptograms was translated as something like, "Elan, I'm not exactly what you might call--". Somebody completed that sentence with "--human" for no readily apparent reason, and then, as is usual with forum theories, other people started to try and fit other "facts" to that statement with little regard of how much logical sense the whole mess made. (e.g. Ian told Haley not to tell anyone about her mother going to Heaven, so that must mean her mother was a Celestial!).

[Kish]

Also, she said she's a half-dragon.

And to many, many people on this forum, "A character said it!" trumps absolutely everything, up to and including "and also said it was a joke."

[137beth]

Part dragon.
She's related to the Draketooths, and the familicide didn't kill her because it couldn't kill Ian - after all, he was in a place where magic couldn't kill anything, considering it was a magic-free zone.

Yup. Probably not, but still.


Epic magic can find its way. Just like when Darth V broke into the Cloistered Azure City/Gobbotopia with a teleport spell, something that should be impossible. And that's even though Cloister is also an epic spell, which the anti-magic field in the Bleedingham prison probably isn't.

I wouldn't say there's no chance of the anti-magic field blocking Familicide... but it's a slim chance, I think.

Still wouldn't matter. Familicide doesn't travel "through" anyone, if she were a draketooth she would have been killed in step 1.

[is_Wayside]

Still wouldn't matter. Familicide doesn't travel "through" anyone, if she were a draketooth she would have been killed in step 1.

Why is everyone ignoring the part where I said "probably not?" EH.

STOP QUOTING ME, HUMANS.

[allenw]

What evidence is there that Haley isn't entirely human?

As far as I know, none. Rich once hinted that there is a reason why Haley was opposites with Sabine, which he couldn't reveal; and Haley had a cut-off confession like like, "I'm not exactly what you call..." That's it. Not exactly worthy of Clarence Darrow.

I figure Haley is Sabine's opposite because, like Sabine, she is (now) in a relationship with Elan, as Sabine is with Nale. At the time of the Giant's hint, he hadn't given away that plot point, so I think that's the best matchup. Also, Haley's cut-off confession could be literally anything. "A natural redhead." "Heterosexual." "A virgin." Anything at all.

Not just anything. To quote Haley's thought-bubble, just before the (encrypted) statement in question:
"Oh. Oh, no. It couldn't be THAT, could it? Even V doesn't know that one... No, Haley, this is important. Tell him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

This is *after* she tries telling Elan that she's is love with him, she's kissed girls, her Dad's being held for ransom by an evil dictator, she cheats at solitaire, and she has a tattoo he's never seen. So that makes at least "Heterosexual" and "a natural redhead" unlikely to be what got cut off (she rooms with V, so V would probably know if she wasn't a natural redhead :smalltongue:).

For what it's worth, what she finally says (before being interrupted) is:
"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call-"

[The Oni]

I just don't see what non-human race she could be. Changelings are way OP and the party could've avoided a lot of trouble if she were one. Everything else she could be would be either very obvious, or give her strange powers. Pretty sure she's as human as it gets in D&D.

[allenw]

I just don't see what non-human race she could be. Changelings are way OP and the party could've avoided a lot of trouble if she were one. Everything else she could be would be either very obvious, or give her strange powers. Pretty sure she's as human as it gets in D&D.

She *could* be an Aasimar, and just never have used her 1/day "Daylight" spell-like ability. Have we ever seen anything that proves she *doesn't* have "Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5", and Darkvision?

And while I think the above is unlikely: if she *is* an Aasimar, then 5 gp says her "Daylight" power will ultimately be used on MitD. :smallsmile:

[Tiiba]

If Sabine's race is any evidence for Haley being non-human, then Thog is evidence for Roy being non-human too. Both make pretty much as much sense as the other (which is, to say, not much sense at all).

So Belkar is part kobold?

[Sabeki]

She *could* be an Aasimar, and just never have used her 1/day "Daylight" spell-like ability. Have we ever seen anything that proves she *doesn't* have "Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5", and Darkvision?

And while I think the above is unlikely: if she *is* an Aasimar, then 5 gp says her "Daylight" power will ultimately be used on MitD. :smallsmile:

Tsukiko did hit her with a Lightning Orb, and it pushed her OFF PANEL. Pretty sure she doesn't have electric resistance.:smalltongue:

[Valanarch]

She *could* be an Aasimar, and just never have used her 1/day "Daylight" spell-like ability. Have we ever seen anything that proves she *doesn't* have "Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5", and Darkvision?

And while I think the above is unlikely: if she *is* an Aasimar, then 5 gp says her "Daylight" power will ultimately be used on MitD. :smallsmile:

She did look like she took full damage from Tsukiko's Electric Orb. She also has never used the daylight or darkvision, even when they were stuck in darkness.

[rgrekejin]

Not just anything. To quote Haley's thought-bubble, just before the (encrypted) statement in question:
"Oh. Oh, no. It couldn't be THAT, could it? Even V doesn't know that one... No, Haley, this is important. Tell him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

This is *after* she tries telling Elan that she's is love with him, she's kissed girls, her Dad's being held for ransom by an evil dictator, she cheats at solitaire, and she has a tattoo he's never seen. So that makes at least "Heterosexual" and "a natural redhead" unlikely to be what got cut off (she rooms with V, so V would probably know if she wasn't a natural redhead :smalltongue:).

For what it's worth, what she finally says (before being interrupted) is:
"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call-"

We're talking about the same character who refused to wear the way-powerful Boots of Speed because they were lime green, right? Given that insight into Haley's priorities, it is entirely believable that "a natural redhead" was what got cut off there. Totally more important than all that other stuff. :smalltongue:

[137beth]

Haley is a Lizardfolk. Romantic relations count as family ('cause), so Haley is related to Elan. Elan is related to Nale, and Nale calls Laurin "Aunt" Laurin. Laurin was obviously in a romantic relationship with Malack, so Haley is a Lizardfolk. Of course, she wasn't a lizardfolk when she told that to Elan, since they were not yet in a relationship, so maybe she was actually telling Elan "I'm not exactly what you'd call a lizardfolk".

[mikelibrarian]

She's half camel. That's why she's such good friends with Varsuvius.

[Psyren]

Also, she said she's a half-dragon.

And to many, many people on this forum, "A character said it!" trumps absolutely everything, up to and including "and also said it was a joke."

But Roy totally took a level of psion! :smalltongue:

[allenw]

We're talking about the same character who refused to wear the way-powerful Boots of Speed because they were lime green, right? Given that insight into Haley's priorities, it is entirely believable that "a natural redhead" was what got cut off there. Totally more important than all that other stuff. :smalltongue:

And who was she talking about the Boots of Speed with? V. And who does she share a room with? V. If she dyed her hair, V would know. :smalltongue:


She did look like she took full damage from Tsukiko's Electric Orb. She also has never used the daylight or darkvision, even when they were stuck in darkness.

Tsukiko was probably doing at least 10d6 points of damage; 5 points of resistance isn't that significant. And have they ever been in non-magical darkness? Darkvision doesn't work in magical darkness.
On the other hand, "Daylight" does counteract "Darkness"; but it wasn't an emergency until they got *out* of the black dragon's Darkness. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

She's a natural redhead. Back when she dyed her hair black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html), she had red roots.

[Illsbane]

She *could* be an Aasimar, and just never have used her 1/day "Daylight" spell-like ability. Have we ever seen anything that proves she *doesn't* have "Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5", and Darkvision?

And while I think the above is unlikely: if she *is* an Aasimar, then 5 gp says her "Daylight" power will ultimately be used on MitD. :smallsmile:

I love this idea! :D

[angry_bear]

Obviously she's a chupacabra wearing a hat of disguise. I mean really, can anyone say that they haven't seen her drinking the blood of goats? It all fits, she's sneaky, seems to be wearing goatskin, and look at how eagerly she attacked the chimera... And what does a chimera have? A GOAT HEAD!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html

If she isn't a chupacabra, then she must be a human... I mean really, what other two possibilities are there?

[Alcibiades]

Not just anything. To quote Haley's thought-bubble, just before the (encrypted) statement in question:
"Oh. Oh, no. It couldn't be THAT, could it? Even V doesn't know that one... No, Haley, this is important. Tell him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html)

This is *after* she tries telling Elan that she's is love with him, she's kissed girls, her Dad's being held for ransom by an evil dictator, she cheats at solitaire, and she has a tattoo he's never seen. So that makes at least "Heterosexual" and "a natural redhead" unlikely to be what got cut off (she rooms with V, so V would probably know if she wasn't a natural redhead :smalltongue:).

For what it's worth, what she finally says (before being interrupted) is:
"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call-"

Wouldn't that secret be her father's situation, making the end of that sentence "an orphan"? I don't know if she ever spoke of her parents before the truth was revealed, but that seems the most likely explanation for that.

[Kish]

Wouldn't that secret be her father's situation, making the end of that sentence "an orphan"? I don't know if she ever spoke of her parents before the truth was revealed, but that seems the most likely explanation for that.
One of the earlier secrets she tried to relate was, "My father's being held ransom[sic] by an evil dictator." So no.

[rgrekejin]

Good. Not exactly what you'd call good, referencing Haley's deep-seated guilt at somehow causing the death of her mother, a fact she could never reveal to her father or her friend V.

Seriously, why does everyone seize on "human"? It could have been literally almost anything. And whatever it is, I kind of doubt it's actually important, or will come in to play at a later date.

[Fish]

Yes. The secret could be virtually anything which happens (or happened) outside Elan's and V's perception.

She's not exactly a member of the Thieves' Guild. She's not exactly honest. She's not exactly poor. She's not exactly a rogue. She's not exactly an only child. She's not exactly childless.

There is exactly as much evidence for any of these ideas as there is for "not exactly human." That is: none at all.

I'm not saying it is impossible. I'm saying "where is the evidence?" For that matter: show me the evidence that Haley's secret is relevant to the comic. For not only has there been no hint that Haley is demihuman, there has been no other mention of the secret itself. Surely if Rich wanted us to keep this mystery in mind, there would be some indication that it was important!

I'm not going to argue over the silly, backward logic that is allenw's Cosmic Teapot. "There's no evidence that she's NOT an Aasimar!" he cries. But there's no evidence that there isn't a tiny china teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars, either. If you want to believe in it, fine; don't make it my job to disprove your groundless belief. Your silly theory is not the default starting position.

[sr123]

Yes. The secret could be virtually anything which happens (or happened) outside Elan's and V's perception.

But it must be a secret that is somehow left-field of all those she tried to reveal before, and it should be significant/embarrassing but non-critical enough that she wouldn't tell it to V or try to reveal it again to Elan/Nale in her attempts to get her voice back.

"Good" or "not evil" has always been my assumption, but it doesn't quite fit any grammatical flow, and it's not exactly secret (slavery, cheating, good-ish, etc.).

"Human" seems quite strange to me, but it's the only one I've heard so far that might fit with that scene. Of course, 99% the speculation as to what type of non-human she would be is a wee ridiculous (though the theory that she has black dragon blood from her mother, who in dying saved her from death by Familicide, has a certain narrative flair to it.) .

So if you have some other secret that fits the scene structure, or makes more sense in terms of what was known at the time (we already knew she's not good), just throw it out there. Maybe it'll get us away from this stupid celestial-sister-of-Celia thing (oh, and long lost twin of Roy, so that Roy is Celia's brother and we once again maintain the Star Wars theme!)

[Ohiohi]

Haley is, like V, :elan: half-camel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

[Kish]

(we already knew she's not good)
We did?

I am afraid not only do I absent myself from this We, I absent myself from any We which Knows now that Haley isn't good, and for that matter from any We which doesn't Know that Haley is good.

[martianmister]

We did?

I am afraid not only do I absent myself from this We, I absent myself from any We which Knows now that Haley isn't good, and for that matter from any We which doesn't Know that Haley is good.

We are already certain that Kish is not a We but a not We. We all know that We all know that.

[Fish]

But it must be a secret that is somehow left-field of all those she tried to reveal before, and it should be significant/embarrassing but non-critical enough that she wouldn't tell it to V or try to reveal it again to Elan/Nale in her attempts to get her voice back.
Must be? Should be? It sounds like tenuous reasoning; you're just guessing. The other secret could be utterly trivial and irrelevant. Haley keeps many secrets. She was grasping at straws. We have no basis on which to judge whether the "secrets" she told were even fully truthful, or half-truths, which she wishes to elaborate upon.

If it were something as grand as "I'm secretly a half-dragon" then I don't think it would be an afterthought to the other "one time, at band camp" secrets she tells. Really? That's the theory? Haley forgets that her biggest secret is her own species? She only wonders if that's the secret, afterward? Nah.

So if you have some other secret that fits the scene structure, or makes more sense in terms of what was known at the time (we already knew she's not good), just throw it out there.
I have no idea what it is, and I'm doubtful it was even intended to be important. I have seen no evidence in the past 600 strips that the conversation will ever come up again. Haley had her big speech about trust and honesty back in Sandsedge; that would have been the time to drop clues to the conversation, but it never happened. It's a waste of energy to imagine a "secret" that we will never know to be true or false. If there is a secret and if Rich does reveal it, we can return to the debate.

[martianmister]

If it were something as grand as "I'm secretly a half-dragon" then I don't think it would be an afterthought to the other "one time, at band camp" secrets she tells. Really? That's the theory? Haley forgets that her biggest secret is her own species? She only wonders if that's the secret, afterward? Nah.

It's not a "afterthought", it's something she never would think to share with anyone, including V.

[Fish]

"Never think to share with anyone" does not mean big secret. It could mean "little unimportant secret." I don't see why this is so hard.

During the Sandsedge honesty scene, she could have hinted: "There's something you need to know about me, but I'm not ready yet." Or, "Look, there's something I need to get off my chest, but I need time."

But no, there was nothing. No hints, no sly clues, no suggestions. Just generalities.

If you want me to believe that Haley has a big, important, earth-shattering secret about being a half-celestial or something, then show me evidence.

[Calemyr]

The aasimar thing, if I recall correctly, was originally derived from how similar Haley is to the angels that have appeared in the story. I don't remember where it was, exactly, but there were a number of angels that looked exactly like her, except with wings. Combine that with Sabine and the aasimar thing is a pretty easy jump.

[gerryq]

She's a natural redhead. Back when she dyed her hair black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html), she had red roots.

And her father's a redhead too, if more proof is needed.

[SavageWombat]

Obviously she's a chupacabra wearing a hat of disguise. I mean really, can anyone say that they haven't seen her drinking the blood of goats? It all fits, she's sneaky, seems to be wearing goatskin, and look at how eagerly she attacked the chimera... And what does a chimera have? A GOAT HEAD!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html

If she isn't a chupacabra, then she must be a human... I mean really, what other two possibilities are there?

Can't be a chupacabra - their world doesn't have the movie "Species".

[snikrept]

Aasimar fits with this strip
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html

"mommy went to heaven last year" - voluntarily using her plane shift power - and came back later :smallbiggrin:

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

...but another strip shows Haley's mother dying, with several arrows in her gut. When someone dies, how do you explain it to a little kid? You say something like they went to heaven. Also, Ian's reaction to her saying that is believable because he's a super paranoid nutcase. That's not evidence for this crackpot theory.

EDIT: were you being sarcastic there?

[Rakoa]

...but another strip shows Haley's mother dying, with several arrows in her gut. When someone dies, how do you explain it to a little kid? You say something like they went to heaven. Also, Ian's reaction to her saying that is believable because he's a super paranoid nutcase. That's not evidence for this crackpot theory.

I do believe that he was joking.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Yup, literally just caught on to that. I edited it right after you pointed it out. Does that qualify as being ninja'd?

[Roland Itiative]

though the theory that she has black dragon blood from her mother, who in dying saved her from death by Familicide, has a certain narrative flair to it.

Girard being dead didn't seem to stop the spell from moving on to his descendants, though (not to mention the initial target, the ABD, was also dead). If Haley's mother was a Draketooth (or descended from one of the other two half-dragons seen in the family tree), Haley would be dead, because she, too, would share the same blood as the black dragon.

The spell didn't go down the family line, it took anyone blood-related to the ABD, regardless of broken links, and then anyone related to those affected by the first step (at which point a timely death could have spared some people, but Haley can't possibly fit in such a scenario, unless her secret is that she had a child with a Draketooth, and this child died of a cause other than Familicide).

[137beth]

We did?

I am afraid not only do I absent myself from this We, I absent myself from any We which Knows now that Haley isn't good, and for that matter from any We which doesn't Know that Haley is good.


We are already certain that Kish is not a We but a not We. We all know that We all know that.

And We win the thread!

[Cavenskull]

Maybe Haley was going to say, "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call a good person."

Look at Strip 311 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html). In that strip, she's arguing with her self-loathing and confesses that she doesn't think she's good enough. But I don't think we're talking alignment here. Instead, I think she's referring to inadequacy. We already know she's a flawed character. She has swindled other party members on more than one occasion, and unlike all her other secrets, that sort of behavior is likely to substantially lessen one's opinion of her. Just like Miko, she could technically be Good, but have attributes that make her unlikable. And of course, since Vaarsuvius is one of the people victimized by some of Haley's less virtuous behavior, it would make sense that Haley would not have confided the details to Vaarsuvius. Even if it has nothing to do with things she's done to other party members, it might involve poor relationship decisions in the past. Maybe she was prone to making bad decisions in her past that Elan would disapprove of. After all, when she finally told Elan everything about her father, Crystal, and the Thieves' Guild, she thought Elan was going to hate her over it. And in Strip 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), it's pretty clear that Elan didn't wholeheartedly approve of Haley killing Crystal.

All in all, I think Haley was just ashamed of her more mercenary qualities. Whatever her secret was, it couldn't have been too big a deal, since the secret that broke the "curse" was in fact Haley's love for Elan. And really, as obviously ashamed as Haley was of her untold secret, it doesn't make sense for it to be about her being something other than a human. What shame would there be in Haley not being a human? It sure doesn't bother Durkon, Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Celia, Therkla, or any number of other non-human characters in the comic.

[ShurikVch]

Haley is elan.

[Rakoa]

Yup, literally just caught on to that. I edited it right after you pointed it out. Does that qualify as being ninja'd?

Hmm. I think that may just qualify, yes.

[M.A.D]

She's a natural redhead. Back when she dyed her hair black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html), she had red roots.

I thought her Boots of Speed were like, lime green (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html)

[Cavenskull]

I thought her Boots of Speed were like, lime green (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html)
Yes, but it doesn't mean she was always wearing them. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) we can see Haley handing her Boots of Speed to a merchant while she's wearing a different pair of shoes. And since your response seems to be a bit of a non sequitur, I'll point out that Chronos was mentioning the red roots of Haley's hair, not red boots to wear on her feet.

[EMichael]

Maybe Haley was going to say, "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call a good person."

This is a common theory, but I am not sure it really holds up under scrutiny. For example, Elan already knows about many of Haley's failings since she does not really try to hide her greed. I therefore do not think it qualifies as a secret.

Also in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) Haley says "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!". She sees herself as good, so I cannot see her trying to tell Elan that she is not.

[EMichael]

show me the evidence that Haley's secret is relevant to the comic.

Simple, the Giant likes blatant foreshadowing and the scene in question practically screams "This will be a plot point later."

The theory that the attempted revelation is unimportant is contradicted by Haley herself two panels earlier. She thinks this secret is fundamentally different then the secret "I cheat at solitaire."

Also, keep in mind also that threads like this are fans speculating what is going to happen in a webcomic. They exist for the purpose of analysis, not to 'prove beyond a reasonable doubt' that one theory is correct. Therefore the concept of burden of proof does not really apply.

[Kish]

Also, keep in mind also that threads like this are fans speculating what is going to happen in a webcomic. They exist for the purpose of analysis, not to 'prove beyond a reasonable doubt' that one theory is correct. Therefore the concept of burden of proof does not really apply.
This paragraph brought to you by the Save the Epileptic Trees foundation.

[FatJose]

Maybe this forced on side quest will finally reveal the truth about her interrupted confession. We got a Haley quest featuring her dad right after an event that greatly affected her love interest and her evil opposite. If there is any more fitting point in this story it'd be now. If not then way later after some other characters got their turns and I don't see that happening since it really feels like the story is just beginning to wrap up.

[Cavenskull]

This is a common theory, but I am not sure it really holds up under scrutiny. For example, Elan already knows about many of Haley's failings since she does not really try to hide her greed. I therefore do not think it qualifies as a secret.
Greedy people do not automatically swindle their companions out of substantial sums of money and steal items from them. Are you suggesting that Haley confessed to selling inert rocks to everyone for an additional share of gold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html)? That goes well beyond mere greed, and I think it would have caused lots of problems if the party knew she was prone to doing that sort of thing to people who are trusting her with their lives.


Also in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) Haley says "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!". She sees herself as good, so I cannot see her trying to tell Elan that she is not.
As I said before, I'm not talking about alignment. I even used Miko as an example. As a Paladin, she's as Good as you're going to get, alignment-wise. Yet Roy still learned that she would be a horrible person to be in a relationship with. She's no "good" for Roy, even though her alignment is Good. Amusingly, in your counter-example, Haley kind of back-pedals when she says she's "Chaotic Good! Ish!" indicating that she doesn't really see herself as being quite as Good as she'd like others to believe. Sure, in terms of alignment she is "Good", but do you really think Haley sees herself as Good to the point that Elan would be willing to see past all her faults when lesser people did not? If a Lawful Good holy warrior can alienate everyone around her, do you not see how a professional thief might have qualities that would disappoint a "pure hearted" person like Elan, especially when she's proven herself to be much more willing to kill a rival than Elan is? Elan refused to kill Nale even in a combat situation where Nale was trying to kill him. Haley on the other hand was not only willing to kill her rival, but she ambushed Crystal when she was completely unaware and vulnerable. While Haley had her reasons for killing Crystal, she ambushed and assassinated Crystal, rather than killing her in self-defense during actual combat.

[Kish]

While Haley had her reasons for killing Crystal, she ambushed and assassinated Crystal, rather than killing her in self-defense during actual combat.
Or for that matter, looking at recent strips, rather than watching helplessly as Bozzok killed Crystal and screaming at him, "I never wanted her dead, ever."

[The Oni]

Most glaring problem with Haley being an aasimar is her personality doesn't match up. Haley is obviously the good-hearted, lovable rogue type, not the hardline Truth and Justice type, and she does from time to time struggle with Greed. Being Good comes naturally to aasimar; Roy or even Elan would be more likely to be an aasimar than Haley. She's too morally ambiguous and therefore, too Human.

And again, nothing else fits. Tiefling is right out because that'd mean Sabine wouldn't be an Evil Opposite at all, plus her Charisma is too high.

[littlebum2002]

Are you suggesting that Haley confessed to selling inert rocks to everyone for an additional share of gold?


She did no such thing. She suggested keeping the stones, and Roy decided she shouldn't get them. Not once did she claim those stones were worth anything.

[ti'esar]

Edit: Never mind.

[eaglewingz]

... I'm doubtful it was even intended to be important.

Haley's own words say it's specific and important.
:haley: "No Haley, this is important. Tell him."


10 gold it comes up again.

[JennTora]

Most glaring problem with Haley being an aasimar is her personality doesn't match up. Haley is obviously the good-hearted, lovable rogue type, not the hardline Truth and Justice type, and she does from time to time struggle with Greed. Being Good comes naturally to aasimar; Roy or even Elan would be more likely to be an aasimar than Haley. She's too morally ambiguous and therefore, too Human.

And again, nothing else fits. Tiefling is right out because that'd mean Sabine wouldn't be an Evil Opposite at all, plus her Charisma is too high.

A Tiefling who isn't evil is as much an opposite of a demon who is is as much an opposite as anyone else Nale's hired.

And Aasimar are not always good. She could be more evil than belkar and still be an Aasimar. You know, If she wasn't human.

Because I'm really pretty sure this secret is more interesting and well thought than that.

[Geordnet]

Personally, I think the Giant knew the only people who'd even know that what she was saying got cut off would be the ones who'd endlessly obsess over exactly what got cut off...

In other words, y'all just got Trolled by the Giant. :smallbiggrin:

[Cavenskull]

She did no such thing. She suggested keeping the stones, and Roy decided she shouldn't get them. Not once did she claim those stones were worth anything.
It was poor wording on my part, but it's still a definite case of fraud. She knew for a fact that those stones were completely ordinary, and she engineered a situation where she could be fairly certain that the rest of the party would end up paying her far more than the stones were worth. While she didn't specifically offer to sell the stones for an additional share of the gold, that exchange is the effective result and it was all due to her calculated efforts to deceive the party.

[Silva Stormrage]

Personally, I think the Giant knew the only people who'd even know that what she was saying got cut off would be the ones who'd endlessly obsess over exactly what got cut off...

In other words, y'all just got Trolled by the Giant. :smallbiggrin:

That's my guess to be honest as well :smalltongue:

[BobTheDog]

It was poor wording on my part, but it's still a definite case of fraud. She knew for a fact that those stones were completely ordinary, and she engineered a situation where she could be fairly certain that the rest of the party would end up paying her far more than the stones were worth. While she didn't specifically offer to sell the stones for an additional share of the gold, that exchange is the effective result and it was all due to her calculated efforts to deceive the party.

Yea, you're right. She definitely did a horrible thing for absolutely selfish reasons i.e. saving her father from a tyrant regime.

There is no way that a person could be "forced" by their party members to take an extra share of gold, which would be used to negotiate the release of an old man from prison, and still be considered remotely Good.

[snikrept]

She's like Robin Hood except she robs from the Everyone, Including her Coworkers and Potential Boyfriend and gives to the Herself.

And the thing about needing the money for her father? Even if she gives all the money to homeless orphans or something, it's still a case of ends justifying means.

Meanwhile that money she's swindling from her party mates would be put to use by them purchasing gear to use for saving the entire world, so she can't even justify her means with superior ends.

[campkilkare]

She's like Robin Hood except she robs from the Everyone, Including her Coworkers and Potential Boyfriend and gives to the Herself.

And the thing about needing the money for her father? Even if she gives all the money to homeless orphans or something, it's still a case of ends justifying means.

Meanwhile that money she's swindling from her party mates would be put to use by them purchasing gear to use for saving the entire world, so she can't even justify her means with superior ends.

They weren't on a quest to save the world at the time, and Elan wasn't her potential boyfriend. Except for Haley and V, the party all had only met a short time before the strip began, and they all went in for mostly selfish reasons of personal benefit.

Haley cheated this group of relative strangers and therefore got more of that benefit than her fair share, because she was desperate for gold to save her dad. It wasn't a very nice thing to do, but there's no need to distort the situation to make into some kind of dramatic betrayal or existential threat to the world.

[Forikroder]

Haley's own words say it's specific and important.
:haley: "No Haley, this is important. Tell him."


10 gold it comes up again.

ir probably did, during her ridiculously long off panel confession about all her life

she thought Elan would definently hate her after telling him everything, what she was going to say was "im not exactly what you call a good person" (or something to thise lines)

[eaglewingz]

I should think V would know that (or similiar).

"Even V doesn't know that one."

[Cavenskull]

Yea, you're right. She definitely did a horrible thing for absolutely selfish reasons i.e. saving her father from a tyrant regime.

There is no way that a person could be "forced" by their party members to take an extra share of gold, which would be used to negotiate the release of an old man from prison, and still be considered remotely Good.
For the third time, this isn't about alignment. Even if her actions are considered Good in the grand scheme of things, do you think Elan (or anyone else in the party) would automatically approve of Haley's deceptions? Just because she's trying to save her dad doesn't mean she has the right to steal from everyone around her.

"Oh, hey Haley. Yeah, it's totally cool that you were stealing things from us and defrauding us out of money. I'm sure it's all for a good cause, now that we know you're trying to get a whole bunch of money to bail out this father of yours that you've never mentioned before. Now that you've told us all this, we can totally trust you to be honest and not run off into the night with all of our most valuable, pawnable items."

Trying to save her imprisoned father from a tyrannical regime may be Good, but it doesn't mean everyone else will approve of her methods. If it's really going to confuse people that much, I hereby change my speculation to the following:

"Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call a NICE person."

There. Unless somewhere in some obscure sourcebook there's a Chaotic Nice alignment, this should be adequate clarification.

[Forikroder]

I should think V would know that (or similiar).

"Even V doesn't know that one."

even V knows haleys unedited life story? i dont think so


but it doesn't mean everyone else will approve of her methods.

theyd aprove of her goal (probably wouldnt believe her goal) but definently not her methods

[Ron Miel]

She's a natural redhead. Back when she dyed her hair black (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html), she had red roots.


And her father's a redhead too, if more proof is needed.

My guess for her secret:

Red hair is hereditary in her family, they are descended from Loki.

[Fish]

Haley's own words say it's specific and important.
:haley: "No Haley, this is important. Tell him."


10 gold it comes up again.
Betting meaningless imaginary money? You're on.

First: "this is important" != "this specific secret is important." It could mean, "Honesty is important. This relationship is important. Getting my voice back is important."

The Giant has had 500 strips to elaborate on this "secret," including a bookend scene where Haley and Elan each demonstrate a newfound about to set aside deception and bardish convention and have an honest relationship, AND a scene showing Haley's younger mom and dad, AND a scene with a suspicious dad. In what scene have you seen any indication that this plot point, this one secret, returns? There is nothing, to my knowledge.

In fact, MY wager is that Haley has already said it: that she loves Elan. That's what she was working up to say. She's not exactly what you'd call Elan's friend. She's not exactly what you'd call just a member of the party. She's not exact what you'd call "in it for the adventure." She was working her way up to the ultimate secret, but didn't go through with it.

It makes much more sense to assume the secret is something we know to be true rather than some wild-eyed wishful thinking about what would be a popular theory or a cool thing to have.

[Ron Miel]

In what scene have you seen any indication that this plot point, this one secret, returns? There is nothing, to my knowledge.

Just the scene where Haley says to herself that she has some big secret that not even V knows. That certainly seems like a Checkov's gun.


In fact, MY wager is that Haley has already said it: that she loves Elan. That's what she was working up to say. ...


Two things wrong with that.

1) She already tried telling Elan she loves him, that didn't work. She is obviously trying something different.

2) She says that even V doesn't know this secret of hers, but V obviously knows she loves Elan.

[Fish]

Just the scene where Haley says to herself that she has some big secret that not even V knows. That certainly seems like a Checkov's Gun.
There is a reason that it is called a Chekov's GUN. Because it is a gun. A gun is eye-catching, important, and deadly. And there is a reason why Anton Chekov says, "If you hang a gun on the wall in Act I, you must fire it by Act III."

Chekov was a playwright, not an author. When he says "hang a gun on the wall," he means to bring a big important thing to the continued attention of the audience (because in a play, a gun on the wall is always visible). Hanging a gun on the wall is ostentatious; it is the focus of the audience's attention. It's a subset of the literary conservation of detail; you don't bring up a thing unless it has a use; and the bigger and deadlier that thing is, especially devoting such attention to it that all action stops while you hang up that gun, the more urgently you must demonstrate its use.

Haley made an off-handed comment. A throwaway line. It has not been brought to our continued attention. I would not call that "hanging on the wall" for us all to see and reflect upon. It was neither important, nor continuous, nor have there been any hints to its continued relevance. If Rich later drops hints to its importance, I will review my position, but for now: I say it's not worth bothering about. The only "Chekov's Gun" in that scene was "Haley Has A Secret Which Will Get Her Voice Back." And that gun was fired.

Face it: not every sentence in the comic can be a Chekov's Gun. Not every detail ever mentioned will be brought back. Otherwise, the denouement is nothing but a fusillade of anticlimax and Chekov's Artillery going off.

[Calemyr]

1) She already tried telling Elan she loves him, that didn't work. She is obviously trying something different.

2) She says that even V doesn't know this secret of hers, but V obviously knows she loves Elan.

1) I think the difference was that she still didn't want Elan to know the first time. She was banking on it working, and so it didn't. When she actually said it, however, she wanted to be heard, and so she was.

2) Correct. "Love makes the world go round, and it has been known to give a +2 circumstance bonus on skill checks."