Walking TPK

[Lanson]

I want to play a Barbarian Berserk Frenzied Berserker in my current group.

I want to know how many tricks there are to keep me from turning into a walking TPK. I know the grease trick to keep frenzied berserker from doing anything, and steadfast determination + iron will should keep me from being TOO bad, but the berserk not letting me end its frenzy willingly may cause problems. Any thoughts?

[Equinox]

While Frenzying, you can't use any Dexterity-based skills, including Balance. Ask the party mage to have a Grease spell readied for emergencies, or a wand. Once you're inside the Grease area of effect, since you can't make Balance checks, you can't move out. The party can safely step back and wait out the Frenzy duration.

[Lanson]

Thank you, I know about that though. I am currently AFB, but I'm pretty certain the Berserk's (Deities and Demigods) Battle Fury does not have that clause, and I am unable to end that frenzy willingly, so I was looking for ways around that frenzy in particular.

[Telonius]

I've had a group that played it as "Out of sight, out of mind." If the Berserker can't see the nearest enemy, they just stand where they are and attack inanimate objects.

At one point, that led to a scene straight out of a Tex Avery cartoon. My rogue closed the door after the Berserker charged into a barracks full of orcs, then barricaded it with a table. As the DM described it, "You hear a loud rumbling and see the walls shake back and forth for a few rounds." After that, all that was left in the room was the Berserker and a few shattered pieces of what used to be beds.

[Segev]

The problem with that is that it means enemies can do the same thing to Mr. Frenzied Berserker, so he's shut down when the party doesn't want him to be. He'll want to be flying, anyway, which would prevent Grease from working.

Remind me: is the Frenzied Berserker immune to mind-effecting effects when he's in a frenzy? If not, have the wizard, rather than being ready with Grease, instead have him already dominated before he frenzies, and compel him out of it when they want him shut down.

I suspect this is, in fact, not feasible, however.

Solid Fog might work better for containment. He'll only be able to move 5 ft./round, which should let people keep distance while he calms down.

Silent Image could give him artificial targets to attack instead.

Magnificent Mansion is a good, secure redoubt for the party to retreat to.

The Druid's Animal Companion could be buffed to specifically target your grapple capability and grapple you into submission, and have duties to counter any grapplers who come after that weakness of yours in combat.

Everybody in the party could learn a skill to feign death or to hide from you when the enemies are all dead.

The party could all wear Rings of the Darkhidden and the party can douse all light when the fight's over.

The psion could use Time Hop on everybody but you to go forward a minute or so in time while you cool off.

If your Will save isn't too hot, the cleric could cast Sanctuary on people. It's not mind-affecting, oddly enough.

The Paladin could put a Mark of Justice on you which, when it is triggered by you attacking a fellow party member, curses you out of the frenzy.

The Rogue could use an Enveloping Pit and trick you into it.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm away from my books right now, but if Berserk doesn't restrict you from skill use like Frenzy, what about Moment of Perfect Mind? It doesn't fail on a natural 1, and you should be able to easily optimize it until you can't fail. If you're frenzying, grease can stop you; if not, Moment of Perfect Mind to pass the save.

[Deadline]

I'm reasonably certain that Iron Heart Surge will allow you to end a Frenzy. A feat or two to get that maneuver should cover this neatly without any issue.

Of course, Iron Heart Surge is it's own can of worms...

[Equinox]

I'm away from my books right now, but if Berserk doesn't restrict you from skill use like Frenzy, what about Moment of Perfect Mind? It doesn't fail on a natural 1, and you should be able to easily optimize it until you can't fail. If you're frenzying, grease can stop you; if not, Moment of Perfect Mind to pass the save.

You can't make Concentration checks while raging.

[lsfreak]

Iron Heart Surge might work, but Moment of Perfect Mind won't. Can't use Concentration while raging or frenzying.

[Equinox]

Problem with Iron Heart Surge is that it's a standard action. However, the Frenzied Berserker "must attack the nearest creature ... to the best of her ability".

I'm pretty sure spending a standard action on something that's not an attack does not constitute attacking the nearest creature to the best of one's ability.

[Silva Stormrage]

Wasn't there a feat in BoED that lets a barbarian act normally while in rage? I have heard sometimes that that feat might work with frenzy as well. Not sure on the RAW of that though.

Righteous Fury I think?

[Lanson]

Iron Heart Surge is not on the table, my DM has ruled that it is not "Attacking an Opponent to the best of your abilities" so that's got shot down when I brought it up.

However, Mark of Justice could probably work, one of the other players was considering taking levels in Paladin. Problem with that is, whoever I attack will probably be a smear unless my DM rules that I have enough time after the Mark curses me out of rage before the attack lands to keep from hitting them. I'll ask

Edit: that exalted feat should work, I'll ask for his ruling on it, he's letting one of the other players take exalted feats and removing the exalted tag where it doesnt make sense. I'll see if this will fly

[demigodus]

Have the party wizard create illusions of extra enemies once you kill the existing ones?

So after you wipe out your enemies you spend the rest of the time hitting empty air, until your rage ends.

[Manly Man]

Wasn't there a feat in BoED that lets a barbarian act normally while in rage? I have heard sometimes that that feat might work with frenzy as well. Not sure on the RAW of that though.

Righteous Fury I think?

This. In my own games, I rule that whatever works on a Rage works on a Frenzy, and I've managed to convince many other DMs of that idea's sensibility. Bring it up with your DM, and explain that it will also give great roleplay opportunities.

[TroubleBrewing]

A Cleric with a wand of Calm Emotions tends to work well.

[Slipperychicken]

Get a good Will save (ideally +19), and the ability to reroll a saving throw. That should make your chance to fail pretty slim.

You can potentially access the Devoted Spirit stance Aura of Perfect Order (Tob 57, level 6 stance, has the [Law] descriptor, but there's no alignment restriction), then you can "Take 11" once per round, which is basically an auto-pass for the DC 20 to end it. You will need Initator Level 11 and two devoted spirit maneuvers to qualify, so this would take a few Crusader levels to attain before level 20. Remember that non-initiator classes gain IL at +1/2 per level, and "in most cases" prestige classes add +1 per level.

Barbarian1/Crusader X/Frenzied BerserkerY, (where X+Y=11) should qualify you for Aura of Perfect Order by ECL 12 or so, though you might have to wait a bit for Deathless Frenzy, depending on how you set it up. Then you can pick it up with either the Martial Stance feat or one of those Crusader levels placed at the end.



Remind me: is the Frenzied Berserker immune to mind-effecting effects when he's in a frenzy? If not, have the wizard, rather than being ready with Grease, instead have him already dominated before he frenzies, and compel him out of it when they want him shut down.

I suspect this is, in fact, not feasible, however.


He should get a saving throw to resist the order (and throw off the domination), since it is most definitely against a Frenzied Berserker's nature to stop fighting. Not guaranteed, but it is one more Will save between him and party deaths.


*Sniff* My very first post to giantitp was identical to the OP... Good luck.

[Azoth]

Put the Merciful enchantment on your weapon. Right before you Frenzy activate it. You can't kill team mates with subdual damage no matter how hard you hit them.

Also, have somebody who can hit you carry a Sap/blunt arrows. You won't fall dead in a frenzy from damage, but if you are low on health they can knock you out safely by throwing subdual damage on you. This works because no one is getting close to a conscious berserker to heal him.

[Tvtyrant]

Have the FB buy everyone else rings of invisibility. He cannot see them so he cannot attack them; now he gets to play the slaughter-god he wants and everyone else gets a sweet magic item for free.

[Jack_Simth]

Put the Merciful enchantment on your weapon. Right before you Frenzy activate it. You can't kill team mates with subdual damage no matter how hard you hit them.

Also, have somebody who can hit you carry a Sap/blunt arrows. You won't fall dead in a frenzy from damage, but if you are low on health they can knock you out safely by throwing subdual damage on you. This works because no one is getting close to a conscious berserker to heal him.
No, but you can hit them hard enough that they're never, ever going to get back up on their own. It involves doing so much nonlethal damage that the nonlethal damage from the attack recovers slowly enough that the thirst and starvation rules layer enough nonlethal on them that they cannot ever recover without aid.

[Lanson]

No, but you can hit them hard enough that they're never, ever going to get back up on their own. It involves doing so much nonlethal damage that the nonlethal damage from the attack recovers slowly enough that the thirst and starvation rules layer enough nonlethal on them that they cannot ever recover without aid.
This... this is incredible. However, wouldnt using a Merciful weapon fail to be fighting as effectively as I can? Or is there no distinction between lethal and non-lethal in the wording of the 3 rage variants?


Have the FB buy everyone else rings of invisibility. He cannot see them so he cannot attack them; now he gets to play the slaughter-god he wants and everyone else gets a sweet magic item for free.
This is Probably what I'll be doing if my DM doesnt allow righteous fury to work. Though the merciful idea is awesome, considering the extra damage would be multiplied by criticals as well. Thank you everyone, lots of good advice here

[holywhippet]

Have the FB buy everyone else rings of invisibility. He cannot see them so he cannot attack them; now he gets to play the slaughter-god he wants and everyone else gets a sweet magic item for free.

Those rings cost 20,000 gold each. It would be cheaper to buy a wand of invisibility for when you need it.

Really though, you shouldn't need to expend gold or spells to keep another player from killing the lot of you.

[TuggyNE]

This... this is incredible. However, wouldnt using a Merciful weapon fail to be fighting as effectively as I can? Or is there no distinction between lethal and non-lethal in the wording of the 3 rage variants?

Since it a) takes a standard action to shut off (a standard action in which you are not fighting, no less) and b) gives an extra d6 of damage when active, I think you can make a strong argument that maintaining Merciful during frenzy is perfectly in keeping with effective fighting.

There is a pitfall, though, and that is in fighting undead/constructs. Make sure there's a backup plan in place for those.

[lsfreak]

Those rings cost 20,000 gold each. It would be cheaper to buy a wand of invisibility for when you need it.

On top of that the rings take a standard action to activate. It's not unlikely that, thanks to initiative order, the frenzied berserker will drop someone before they even get a chance to get a spell off, unless everyone preemptively makes themselves invisible before the encounter's over and hopes the zerker can wrap things up on his own (and hopes no enemies have a quickened glitterdust prepared).

[Slipperychicken]

Put the Merciful enchantment on your weapon. Right before you Frenzy activate it. You can't kill team mates with subdual damage no matter how hard you hit them.


Can't he still just take a -4 to deal lethal instead, while doing an auto-hit CDG on downed foes? Or if that doesn't work, simply deliver lethal CDG with a backup weapon, or even his Unarmed Strike?

[Lanson]

Can't he still just take a -4 to deal lethal instead, while doing an auto-hit CDG on downed foes? Or if that doesn't work, simply deliver lethal CDG with a backup weapon, or even his Unarmed Strike?

I think I'd be more worried about reinforcements or enemies showing up while my allies are still unconscious. Also, I dont think the Merciful enchantment allows the -4 to do lethal. Although using my fists as lethal weapons would work, but using the sword would be easiest, since it's more effective. As I can CDG with a -4 unarmed attack later, that should auto-succeed being a CDG not requiring an attack roll. (Imagining a frothing berserker snapping necks after knocking his foes unconscious sound pretty epic to me, I think I'll be going for this)

Edit: Wouldnt using a Holy Weapon's bonus damage still apply, making the Merciful weapon work on undead, although weak?

[Beelzebub1111]

At higher levels, a Scroll of Maze is an option. Let him work out his rage in a pocket dimension.

[Manly Man]

This... this is incredible. However, wouldnt using a Merciful weapon fail to be fighting as effectively as I can? Or is there no distinction between lethal and non-lethal in the wording of the 3 rage variants?

Even if you do nonlethal damage, you're still doing more damage than normal, and therefore taking down the enemy faster. Especially if you qualify for Righteous Fury, you're also acting according to your alignment; you may not be killing them, as everyone should have a second chance, but you're still beating them into a not-dead paste, and going even faster than if you were using lethal damage, and therefore fighting to the best of your ability, because whether they're dead or not, they're still being defeated.

[Slipperychicken]

(Imagining a frothing berserker snapping necks after knocking his foes unconscious sound pretty epic to me, I think I'll be going for this)

It could just as easily be a head/neck-stomp, a knee, an executioner-kick (look it up), or a flying/falling elbow. Or just ripping the guy's heart out with your bare hands. Yes, I have been watching too many martial arts movie fights on youtube...

EDIT: Something tells me that a Frenzied Berserker, whose power is to get so angry that mortal blows cannot fell him, wouldn't be content to simply pommel his opponents nonlethally. It would, however, be a reasonable interpretation to move on once a foe is KO'd, then maybe kill him later if there aren't any conscious opponents left.

[Tvtyrant]

Those rings cost 20,000 gold each. It would be cheaper to buy a wand of invisibility for when you need it.

Really though, you shouldn't need to expend gold or spells to keep another player from killing the lot of you.

Umm, that is why the FB is buying the rings for them. It is a somewhat steep tax to play what you want to play, but it means you are the one paying for your play style and not your team members. Not as good as merciful is, but if you wanted to be really good pay for your party to have permanent true sight as well and have them stay invisible most of the time.

[holywhippet]

Umm, that is why the FB is buying the rings for them. It is a somewhat steep tax to play what you want to play, but it means you are the one paying for your play style and not your team members. Not as good as merciful is, but if you wanted to be really good pay for your party to have permanent true sight as well and have them stay invisible most of the time.

Steep? If you assume the DM is going by standard wealth by level, and the player is in a party with 3 other people, they will be around level 11 before they can afford the 3 rings. Well, technically not even then since that wealth is in terms of the value of all loot. Given items sell normally for half of their value it's more like level 13-14.

On top of that, it's pretty much all of the character's wealth going towards those rings which they are only buying to reduce the chance of their crazy berserker friend killing them. When they do buy them, they will have pretty much nothing else to their name. And, unless you have high starting levels the game is going to be running for quite some time before they can afford those rings.

Additionally, some DMs might not be happy with most of the party being able to turn invisible at a moments notice. It offers the chance for all sorts of shenanigans.

I'd consider asking the DM about some kind of custom item which lets another PC shut the beserker down if need be. Alternately, I'd consider investing in some tanglefoot bags. They can hopefully pin them down for a while or at least slow them down long enough for their rage to run out.

[TuggyNE]

Can't he still just take a -4 to deal lethal instead, while doing an auto-hit CDG on downed foes? Or if that doesn't work, simply deliver lethal CDG with a backup weapon, or even his Unarmed Strike?

-4 for lethal won't work with Merciful; make sure any backup weapons also have Merciful, and have it activated normally. Add in (heavy, eventually) fortification armor for all the party members, and you can keep even unarmed strike CDG from trashing you. (Of course, whether a frenzy would force you to be cunning enough to reduce your immediate damage output for a higher overall chance of killing them is not certain, but may as well hedge your bets. I'm inclined to think the reckless nature of it is likely to preclude any such calculations.)