Shadowcaster/Telflammar Shadowlord Lulzery

[Fax Celestis]

If you take a Shadowcaster into Telflammar Shadowlord (call it ECL 10th entry if you go Human and take Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance and don't multiclass: you could probably do it quicker with a fighter dip, but see below for why you don't want to), you can full-attack twice in a round.

How, you ask?

Flicker, a third-level mystery, lets you teleport as an immediate action once per round. Most of the time this is a defensive maneuver--which, because of the way Shadow Pounce is written, means you can full attack when it's not your turn.


At 4th level, a Telflammar shadowlord learns how to attack swiftly from the shadows. Any time he uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, his shadow jump ability), he may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation. The shadowlord must have line of sight on his intended target from his original location, and the spot to which he teleports must be a place from which he can launch a melee attack at the intended target with whatever weapon he has in hand at the beginning of his action.

Telflammar Shadowlord gets shadow jump naturally, and you can pick up other teleportation from Shadowcaster (shadow evocation for firestride exhalation, step into shadow), so you can cast shadow evoked firestride exhalation to breathe a cone of fire, teleport to any spot within the cone, full-attack upon ending your teleport, flicker to teleport again, full-attack again, and if you can somehow get shadow stride (a fifth level maneuver, so a one-level swordsage dip after ECL 8 will get it for you), you can shadow stride as a move action, land, and full-attack again.

Theoretical lolzery build:

Shadowcaster 8/Swordsage 1/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/whateverthehell you want +7

Swordsage 1 gets you assassin's stance and shadow stride, Shadowcaster 8 gets you flicker, shadow evocation, and step into shadow (plus some other things), and Telflammar Shadowlord gets you Shadow Pounce (and some other things).

[Urpriest]

How are you getting Dimension Door for qualification purposes on that build?

[Fax Celestis]

How are you getting Dimension Door for qualification purposes on that build?

Step into shadow is "as dimension door". It's a minor, albeit reasonable, fudge.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sadow walker template? Not stellar, but not bad and you can buy off the adjustment at level 3 since it is only LA +1 (slap it onto a dragonborn to negate the con penalty).

[lsfreak]

[snip]...if you can somehow get shadow stride (a fifth level maneuver, so a one-level swordsage dip after ECL 8 will get it for you), you can shadow stride as a move action, land, and full-attack again.

Non-ToB classes only give half-levels, so to get shadow stride you'd need to be ECL 16 if you're only taking a single level. You probably want shadowlord as soon as possible, going something like shadowcaster 8/swordsage 1/shadowlord 4/swordsage 2, and you'd get shadow stride at 15th level rather than 9th (which isn't a big delay since you can't shadowpounce till 13th level in either build). That's also assuming the statement about the 1st stance being 1st level is descriptive text and not rules text, which not all DMs are going to rule, so you may have to delay shadowpouncing a level by picking up swordsage at both 9th and 10th levels (or blowing your 9th level feat on Martial Stance).

[Xuldarinar]

Step into shadow is "as dimension door". It's a minor, albeit reasonable, fudge.

By raw, you can't do that.

From the Tome of Magic, page 117:


Levels in shadowcaster do not qualify a character for prestige classes with the following entry requirements:

(Not important for this)
(Not important for this)
Ability to cast a specific spell, even if a mystery exists with a similar effect.

[Person_Man]

FYI, you can also get access to the Flicker Mystery with Binder 7 (or Binder 5 with Improved Binder Feat) to bind the Tenebrous vestige. It can only be used a limited number of times per day, but Binder is otherwise mechanically superior and less of an investment then Shadowcaster.

Totemist 2 can also give you Move Action Dimension Door at will, via the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to your Totem chakra.

So that would be 2 Shadowpounces per round, plus your Standard Action is free to do whatever. (Make another shaodowpounce?)

[Piggy Knowles]

Here is the Shadowcaster/Shadowlord build from my Shadowcaster handbook:


Whisper Gnome, Swordsage 2/Shadowcaster 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 5/Arcane Trickster 6
Feats
Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Still Mystery, Spring Attack, Blind-Fight, Favored Mystery (Flicker), Craven, Staggering Strike

Mysteries
Supernatural: Life Fades, Voice of Shadows, Flesh Fails, Congress of Shadows, Umbral Touch, Flicker x2

SLA: Step Into Shadow, Bolster x2, Pass Into Shadow, Voyage Into Shadow

Spell: Ephemeral Image

Build Summary
In general, he is pretty simple - Umbral Touch to make full attacks as touch attacks, then Flicker to shadowpounce. Each attack deals 10d6+20, staggers and slows.

Arcane Trickster is qualified through level 3 Telflammar Shadowlord spells, plus mage hand from the whisper gnome.

It obviously requires some DM fiat to allow Step into Shadow to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord, but the fluff fits together like a glove.

[A_S]

Blink Shirt works "as Dimension Door," which means it inherits the "can't take any other actions" text. It's unclear whether that would prevent you from using Shadow Pounce (RAI it probably wouldn't, since it'd be weird for Telflammar Shadowlord to require a teleportation spell that doesn't trigger its ability). Even if it doesn't, though, it's likely to get in the way of using all of your actions to Shadow Pounce.

Happily, the ToB Shadow Hand teleportation maneuvers don't have this problem. My favorite way to make a multipouncer is to qualify via Wizard casting (which conveniently also lets you grab Abrupt Jaunt for immediate action full attacks), and then rely on maneuvers for my in-combat teleportation.

Here's a build I wrote up a while back that follows this template:
Human (28 point buy)

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

1 - Human Paragon 1 - Dodge, Blind Fight
2 - Wizard 1 - Mobility
3 - Human Paragon 2 - Spring Attack, Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
4 - Wizard 2 - Str 15
5 - Warblade 1
6 - Human Paragon 3 - Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
7 - Jade Phoenix Mage 1
8 - Jade Phoenix Mage 2 - Str 16
9 - Jade Phoenix Mage 3 - Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)
10 - Jade Phoenix Mage 4
11 - Telflammar Shadowlord 1
12 - Telflammar Shadowlord 2 - Arcane Strike, Str 17
13 - Telflammar Shadowlord 3
14 - Telflammar Shadowlord 4
15 - Telflammar Shadowlord 5 - Martial Study (Shadow Stride)
16 - Jade Phoenix Mage 5 - Str 18
17 - Jade Phoenix Mage 6
18 - Jade Phoenix Mage 7 - Martial Study (Shadow Blink)
19 - Jade Phoenix Mage 8
20 - Jade Phoenix Mage 9 - Str 19

ACF's: Abrupt Jaunt, Martial Wizard

Maneuvers:
5 (IL 3) - Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Mountain Hammer
7 (IL 4) - Crusader's Strike
9 (IL 6) - Burning Blade
16 (IL 11) - Divine Surge
18 (IL 13) - Fire Riposte
20 (IL 15) - Leaping Flame

(Typical maneuvers readied: Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink, Leaping Flame)

Stances:
5 - Hunter's Sense
16 - Aura of Perfect Order

(Typical stance: Assassin's Stance)

Teleportation as a swift, move, and standard action on the Warblade's refresh mechanic (so 3/round when you don't need to refresh, 2/round if you do), and as an immediate action either 10 ft. 3+int times/day, or longer range in response to a ranged attack via Leaping Flame.
Arcane Strike to make sure your full attacks have plenty of bonus damage dice (remember the dice stack if you sacrifice multiple slots).
6th level Wizard spells for some light gishiness.
No RAW fudging required for qualification, since you can cast Dimension Door as a Wizard spell on time.

[Spuddles]

Straight swordsage gets you 3 full attacks per round if you use the shadow jaunt line.

I wouldnt use dimension door abilities because those turn off your ability to do anything after you use it. If all those mysteries refer you to dimension door, you're only going to get one use a round. Even just using shadow flicker or whatever is sort of a bummer because you wont even be able to talk after using it.

[Snowbluff]

Wizards can cast Stand to full attack.

[Piggy Knowles]

Straight swordsage gets you 3 full attacks per round if you use the shadow jaunt line.

I wouldnt use dimension door abilities because those turn off your ability to do anything after you use it. If all those mysteries refer you to dimension door, you're only going to get one use a round. Even just using shadow flicker or whatever is sort of a bummer because you wont even be able to talk after using it.

Flicker doesn't refer back to DimDoor, only Step into Shadow does.

[A_S]

Straight swordsage gets you 3 full attacks per round if you use the shadow jaunt line.
The problem with Swordsage is its refresh mechanic. Sure, you can get 3 full attacks the first round of combat, but after that, you're either skipping every other round to refresh your maneuvers, or you nova first round and then fight like the rest of us plebes for the rest of the combat.

*edit* Also, still have to qualify.

[Piggy Knowles]

The problem with Swordsage is its refresh mechanic. Sure, you can get 3 full attacks the first round of combat, but after that, you're either skipping every other round to refresh your maneuvers, or you nova first round and then fight like the rest of us plebes for the rest of the combat.

*edit* Also, still have to qualify.

Of course, if you get those maneuvers onto a Crusader or Warblade via Martial Study, Shadow Sun Ninja and/or Mo9, it's less of an issue...

[A_S]

Of course, if you get those maneuvers onto a Crusader or Warblade via Martial Study, Shadow Sun Ninja and/or Mo9, it's less of an issue...
Exactly, like in the build I posted up the page a little bit.

[Piggy Knowles]

Exactly, like in the build I posted up the page a little bit.

Oh, hey, look at that. Sorry, I scanned the build earlier on my phone but managed to completely miss the point :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

Oh, hey, look at that. Sorry, I scanned the build earlier on my phone but managed to completely miss the point :smalltongue:

Also was posting from phone and missed A_S' build.

Swordsage is the most straightforward way to turn all actions into full attacks, and it doesn't have any dead levels. Quite playable all the way through.

[A_S]

Swordsage is the most straightforward way to turn all actions into full attacks, and it doesn't have any dead levels. Quite playable all the way through.
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Swordsage in general (I love the class), I was just trying to say that it isn't a very good chassis for a maneuver-based multipouncer. It's because, when you're only using one or two maneuvers per round, having to blow a round on refreshing them once in a while isn't a huge deal, but when you only have three maneuvers you even want to use, and you want to use all three of them every round, a full round refresh is pretty crippling.

[Spuddles]

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing Swordsage in general (I love the class), I was just trying to say that it isn't a very good chassis for a maneuver-based multipouncer. It's because, when you're only using one or two maneuvers per round, having to blow a round on refreshing them once in a while isn't a huge deal, but when you only have three maneuvers you even want to use, and you want to use all three of them every round, a full round refresh is pretty crippling.

I actually think it's an excellent chassis, but mostly because I tend to play games that start at level 1, so playability at all levels is important.

Your build is certainly superior, but I find a certain elegance in using simplest build to achieve the best results. An idiot crusader would work best in terms of action advantage, but warblade is pretty money, and the 6th level wizard spells is icing on a money cake.

And I wouldn't consider getting 4 full attacks off every two rounds as "crippling" :smallwink:. Anklets of Translocation (or other swift/immediate action abilities) can still be used on rounds of maneuver recovery.

[A_S]

I actually think it's an excellent chassis, but mostly because I tend to play games that start at level 1, so playability at all levels is important.

Your build is certainly superior, but I find a certain elegance in using simplest build to achieve the best results. An idiot crusader would work best in terms of action advantage, but warblade is pretty money, and the 6th level wizard spells is icing on a money cake.
But Swordsage doesn't qualify on its own...wouldn't you have to do something inelegant and/or backloaded (like the wizard gishing I did, or a 4-level splash into Shadowdancer, or a Totemist dip, or whatever) to qualify anyway? Or are you assuming templates or DM fiat to get in as pure Swordsage?


And I wouldn't consider getting 4 full attacks off every two rounds as "crippling" :smallwink:. Anklets of Translocation (or other swift/immediate action abilities) can still be used on rounds of maneuver recovery.
Yeah, you're right, it's not actually weak, skipping most of every other round just feels icky to me.

[13_CBS]

Totemist 2 can also give you Move Action Dimension Door at will, via the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to your Totem chakra.

Wait, I thought the DDoor from Blink Shirt prevented you from taking any more actions for that round after you use it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Shadow Pounce let's you make a full attack after every use of a [Teleport] ability, and you could always use your actions this way: Swift (Dimension Hop/Quickened Bening Transposition)-> Standard (Shadow Stride)-> Move ( Blink Shirt)