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FallenGeek
2013-08-29, 04:58 PM
In my created setting, I decided that all magical power has a cost. For mortals, of course this comes through a number of channels - the gods, demons, elemental lords, or hard work for lesser (compared to other disciplines) power. But for other worldly powers, the power comes directly from souls. The demons get their souls from corrupting humanity into damnation. The Elemental Lords (who are more primordial and might be the creators of the universe) proffer elemental magic in return for eternal servitude in wars against other lords. The gods are other entities who have gathered into pantheons (with false origin stories) to share souls from worshipers. And while many gods were angels prior to hatching this private pool theory, I have no idea what the role of angels are in this cosmology.

Does anyone have any ideas how I could solve this conundrum? Because I really want angels to be movers and shakers (as both allies and antagonists), but feel that I've pushed them out of any tangible role in this cosmology.

TheStranger
2013-08-29, 05:15 PM
My first thought is that angels siphon altruism from mortal souls in some fashion. When somebody does something selfless, or worries more about others than themselves, some amount of positively-charged soul energy is generated, which ascends to the upper planes, where it is used by angels to do... stuff.

That does, however, move the power source away from being souls themselves. And it does beg the question of why devils/demons don't get power in a similar fashion from sufficiently evil acts.

If angels specifically need the souls of deceased mortals, that's a harder problem. Taking people's souls is kind of antithetical to the idea of Good. One thought is that the angels have access to the souls of those who are virtuous in life, but don't have allegiance to any deity. That sets up a rivalry between angels and gods, and maybe gives team evil a boost.

InQbait
2013-08-29, 05:35 PM
In settings I've made up, angels have almost always been the most powerful servants of the gods. Although angels not being beholden to any gods does intrigue me. Because then they could do good for the sake of good, without a god telling them what to do. I also always thought of angels as militaristic for the most part, eternally battling demons and devils across the cosmos, holding those fiends off and protecting the weak mortals. There's also the idea that when a good-aligned mortal dies, the god of goodness turns them into angels to serve them and the purpose of good.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-29, 06:19 PM
Angels are weak less-than-godlike spirits who feed off divine energy which the gods imbue them with. They function as enforcers, soldiers, and representatives of divine entities, doing work in exchange for sustenance and power. They can sometimes be found answering prayers and making decisions which are too small to warrant a deity's direct attention.

Most angels are content to carry out the will of their divine masters, as they don't want to risk their own destruction/damnation, and they simply lack the ambition to bear the thorny crown of godhood. There are a few who have their eyes set on godhood, but they are usually cowed by the awesome divine might of their sponsors, or otherwise too weak to do much. The only way to gain influence (aside from a god transferring more power to them) is to somehow facilitate their own cults and gain soul-energy that way; a highly risky undertaking, as a strong god can simply denounce it as heresy and smash it.

If an angel becomes strong enough (whether from starting its own religion, or getting someone to give it power in exchange for an important service), it can rebel and become a demigod in its own right, although this is rare: gods are usually wise in who they bestow power upon, and are quick to take it away if they suspect betrayal. It's simply a less-powerful version of a god, after all, so there's no reason it couldn't one day grow into a full-fledged deity, complete with its own minions, clerics, and congregation.

FallenGeek
2013-08-29, 06:42 PM
My first thought is that angels siphon altruism from mortal souls in some fashion. When somebody does something selfless, or worries more about others than themselves, some amount of positively-charged soul energy is generated, which ascends to the upper planes, where it is used by angels to do... stuff.

That does, however, move the power source away from being souls themselves. And it does beg the question of why devils/demons don't get power in a similar fashion from sufficiently evil acts.

If angels specifically need the souls of deceased mortals, that's a harder problem. Taking people's souls is kind of antithetical to the idea of Good. One thought is that the angels have access to the souls of those who are virtuous in life, but don't have allegiance to any deity. That sets up a rivalry between angels and gods, and maybe gives team evil a boost.

That last part may be the solution. I had set up gods to be groups of both angels and demons (who are not necessarily paradigms of virtue or corruptness) that decided to bond together to gain power with a shared idea of what makes the best souls, but couldn't figure where angels got theirs.

Its not that angels take souls like demons do, but that there are souls residing in their realm provide them with power. Souls have power just by existing - but in hell, demons torture souls for agony (their theory on the most powerful seasoning), in paradise, angels pamper souls for happiness (their theory).

johnbragg
2013-08-29, 06:50 PM
Maybe angels are the equivalent of "household gods"--they draw power from a small(ish) number of people in a small area, with the potential to advance in power if they can recruit more followers.

So each angel is channelling soulpower from only a handful of (living) people, but there are a lot of angels.

A family could easily have a "guardian angel" watching out for all of them, more-or-less, with the souls passing into the GA's care at death, if they're not committed to a larger pantheon or demonic alliance or what have you.

So you could see confederacies of hundreds or thousands of angels (based in some kind of shared outlook) that are the equals in power of pantheons of 10-20 gods.

TheCountAlucard
2013-08-29, 08:46 PM
And it does beg the question of why devils/demons don't get power in a similar fashion from sufficiently evil acts.It really doesn't; it raises the question just fine, though. :smalltongue:

But yeah, angels being proto-gods seems like a decent idea.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-29, 09:35 PM
My first thought is that angels siphon altruism from mortal souls in some fashion. When somebody does something selfless, or worries more about others than themselves, some amount of positively-charged soul energy is generated, which ascends to the upper planes, where it is used by angels to do... stuff.

That does, however, move the power source away from being souls themselves. And it does beg the question of why devils/demons don't get power in a similar fashion from sufficiently evil acts.


Perhaps both sides (goodness and evil) get to harvest power from good/evil feelings, and also from souls who get harvested for the afterlife.

Basically, good gods get tiny bits of power when people feel positive emotions, do nice things, think kind thoughts, and worship them. Evil gods get some power from negativity, bad feelings like malice/greed/selfishness, evil deeds, and from people worshiping them.

Of course, both sides might get much more power from souls going to the right afterlife. Odin, for example, would receive a decent amount of soul-power from a 1HD soldier who prays to him and is glorious enough to get into his domain of Valhalla, but gets much, much more power from a 20HD Cleric who dies in righteous battle defending his name.

Craft (Cheese)
2013-08-30, 02:53 AM
How about this: Rather than try to trick, corrupt, or bribe mortals for soul-power, angels get it through cooperation and collaboration.

An angel forms a bond with a mortal called its Companion, and the angel and her companion work together towards a mutual set of goals. The angel gets power from her mortal companion, and the mortal in turn gets power from the angel: The symbiosis makes them both stronger.

However this has a risk: If the Companion decides to stop working towards their mutual goal with the angel, this severs the link and actually damages the angel. An angel making a bad choice in a companion is worse off than an angel that doesn't bond at all. So they're really picky and cautious about who they attempt to bond with. (If the goal is accomplished, the link fades unless the angel chooses to renew it with a new goal, but it doesn't harm the angel.)

An angel can bond with multiple companions at a time, but this multiplies the risk (and the rewards).

Vitruviansquid
2013-08-30, 03:08 AM
What if angels can extract power from mortals' souls without damaging or altering them in any way... but in order to draw power from them, the angels need love. Specifically, the angel's love for the mortal. Of course, angels love traits that mortals call "virtuous." This explains why Gods, who are often former angels, often demand virtuous behaviors from mortals - they used to, and may still, gain power from that virtue. It also explains why angels only come to the assistance of exceptional individuals - the angels only get power in their presence.

InQbait
2013-08-30, 12:44 PM
Some very interesting ideas for angels popping up here. I really like this thread

LibraryOgre
2013-08-30, 02:27 PM
Angels are symbiotes... they are not directly given divine power, but instead leech off that which is radiated naturally. To promote their lifestyle, they act to further the ends of the deities to which they attach themselves, increasing their supply of food.

Frozen_Feet
2013-08-30, 03:01 PM
To be contrary: Angels don't need souls. At all. They are naturally powerful entities that come from outside Creation are hence not bound to its rules. Those angels who become gods are simply greedy, or otherwise got themselves too invested on goings on of mortal life. Angels don't normally give any power whatsoever to mortals.

Devils are fallen angels who had their powers stripped as they were thrown/exiled into Creation. The primary reason they go after mortal souls is to regain even a shred of their former power and glory.

Segev
2013-08-30, 03:43 PM
Demons and Devils and the like gain power from corrupting souls so they fall into their hands like overripe fruits upon death?

Angels, then, do not garner power from souls. Instead, they garner power from ideals. Specifically, each kind of Angel has a general ideal system from which it draws its power. The stronger that system, the greater those angels' power. Using it degrades it, but using it in defense of it can be worthwhile when the damage done by whatever is being defended against would be greater. Further, it is convenient for them, and it's how they survive.

It's not worship, but action they want from their mortal servants. Mortals can act to support ideals and enact systems which empower them with naught but their own sweat and tears. Their hopes and aspirations. Their work. Angels empower mortals whose work with that power returns greater strength to the overall system of their ideals.

Individual, specific Angels are focused on specific aspects of their ideals. If Lantern Archons are Angels of honest communication, one Lantern Archon may be specifically devoted to learning languages and transliteration, while another might be focused on secure but clear encryption/decryption, and a third might be dedicated to siblings feeling each others' joys and pains/brotherly love.

Some of these ideals for specific angels can be obscure, so they work towards the greater ideal and just take what they can where they can; those few who really need what they support might learn of them and become devoted more specifically.

Roguenewb
2013-08-30, 04:03 PM
So elemental lords existed from before the world existed, and they created it? Yeah, they did, but in order to be able to use their power, basic, fundamental rules of existence needed to exist. Causality, Entropy, Arcane Laws (Contagion, Sympathy, Symmetry, Microcosma, Macrocosma, etc), Time, Space (more than one place needs to exist) needed to exist for them to even have conciousness, nonethless the creative power to build a universe. Where, praytell, did these laws come from? Mortal scholars are just barely beginning to discover the very concept of this, but the word the dragons and aboleths (truly ancient scholars that those species are) use for it is Angel.

The angels are strange, beyond mortal comprehension type creatures (think biblical seraphim, not modern babies with wings, those are Fey! :smallamused:) that exist as an emblem of the very laws of reality. Not laws like "you may only run at 30 ft" or "fire burn downs trees" the elemental lords are responsible for those, but laws like "Time passes", "there are multiple locations", "Magic", and "One thing can cause another reliably". The angels don't need to gather power, because they can't lose it. It is impossible, except for the absolute greatest of mages, to change these laws, and thus angels power is utterly constant.

The angels move through the multiverse each an infestimal fragment of the emblem-mind that was around when the elemental lords created existence. They fight for Law, and I think its obvious why. It would cheer the heart of the greatest mortal scholars to know why they serve good. It's simple: the natural fundamental reality is good. Not in a sentient way, but just deterministically.

They can't be lawful evil, since evil is about focusing on one's self and gaining as much power as possible. Evil warps and schemes and betrays every law it can, surely the embodiments of these principles can't do that.

They aren't neutral either, for a more nuanced reason. Neutrality is about balance, and limitations, and restraint. The Angels are not. They embody the most primal, intense forces in existence. Restraint and Balance have no meaning to Time and barely even makes logical sense as a sentence for Space. They do not seek to limit some from being too great, they don't even need to limit people from trying to break the laws they embody, because breaking these laws is inherently impossible.

So, they aren't evil, and they are intense. They want equality and fairness for all, no matter who you are, Causality applies. Since Evil usually wants to cheat, and turn laws aside, and remove that balance and fairness, and Angels are powers of Primal Exuberance, they are left in opposition to Evil, with nowhere for them in neutrality, they have become, with the invention of morality by the lesser beings, inherently Good in this reality.

Take heart mortals! The most powerful forces in the multiverse are out there to level the playing field for you, to make sure you have your chance, and to insure that the world continues to work the way it should!

Kinda biblical/early modern philosophical. Beings that exist as "refractions" but that process makes them good and so forth. Obviously, this will not work in horror settings. But humorously, the reverse will. The laws are fundamentally evil, and just swap Devil and Angel fluff, with Angels being desperate bargainers trying to find more power to force the evil universe to give mortals a chance. True Hope makes for a great way to stir the party from hard times, and is getting a little too rare in modern fantasy.