archer immune fighter

[Somensjev]

i want to make a fighter, that is completely immune to archers and ranged weapon users (possibly even spell casters, through use of items)

my DM wants to make me and one of the other players fight in a coliseum, because the other player annoys every one at the table, by telling us that we'll never be as good as his ranger, and how spellcasters are horrible, and lots of other things :smallannoyed:

so, i want a build, that goes from level one to level twenty, and is at least mostly immune to ranged attacks, and i want to do it with a tier 4 or 5 class, and a race from the players hand book :smallwink:

thanks for any contributions in advanced :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

Fighter gets Tower Shield proficiency for free at first level. It can be used for cover, which dramatically cuts back on the ability of ranged attacks to hit you.

Wind Cloak soulmeld provides 2 + (2 * essentia invested) DR/- against all ranged attacks. If you have a chakra bind and bind it to your Shoulder chakra, it also provides Deflect Arrows, usable without free hands, 1 + 1*essentia invested times per round. Deflect Arrows happens automatically, so a mid level Incarnate can be more or less immune to 5+ ranged attacks per round. A Fighter (or anyone) can also pull it off with 4ish Feats, which is a horrible waste of Feats.

There are also various tricks for going Invisible or Hiding as a Swift or Immediate Action, but again, not very Fighter-y.

[justiceforall]

Build a normal fighter.

Buy smokesticks.

[Fyermind]

Go fighter with a towershield. Until you close to melee range or your opponent gets bored ready an action to take total cover from the appropriate direction. Take the Block Arrow from Heroes of Battle to deal with the first ranged attack per round and help you be more mobile.

Get a quick release or something for your tower shield so you can drop it once you reach melee. Aim for a charger. Take advantage of power attack and all it's goodness. all your remaining resources should go into mobility and ensuring you can land that charge.

[erikun]

Tower shield with a two-handed weapon, then drop the tower shield when you're close enough. If you're worried about the ranger getting away from you and attacking with a ranged weapon again, then stick with a weapon that can be used 1H or 2H. Longsword works perfectly find for this.

Psion with tower shield. The shield's -10 ACP ensures that you won't hit with rays while you have it equipped, but tower shield cover + Null Psionics Field means you can't be touched by mundane or magical means. Call up some Astral Constructs to pound away on your opponent.

Of course, if you don't mind magic/psionics, then any kinds of miss chance (especially stackable ones) are just gravy against any mundane attackers. Psychic Warrior is a favorite for this, as not only do you get Expansion, Vigor, Force Screen and Lion's Charge, you also have Concealing Amorpha. Extra fun is Mantled Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) for the Magic Mantle, then use some wizard wands on top of that. (Invisibility to get close, Mirror Image is nice, something like Glitterdust/Web/Sleet Storm will ruin his day.)

[EDIT] Actually, looking it over, I seem to not have remembered things correctly. Magic Mantle does not allow a Psychic Warrior to use wands like a wizard. Sorry.

You could, though, be a Cleric and take the Magic Domain, which does allow you to use wands like a wizard. Plus, Clerics can use armor and two-handed weapons just as well as most fighters.

[Psyren]

Build a normal fighter.

Buy smokesticks.

They can still target your square (50% miss chance, but better than nothing.) Some item that grants a wind wall effect will protect you from arrows completely though.

EDIT: Craft a constant-effect item of Fickle Winds. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds)

[Immabozo]

There are also various tricks for going Invisible or Hiding as a Swift or Immediate Action, but again, not very Fighter-y.

Get total concealment behind a tower shield. Roll a hide check. As you disappear, so does your tower shield, by RAW, as I understand it. Enjoy free invisibility!

[HunterOfJello]

Get the Buffeting Fists elemental graft from Magic of Eberron put into your arms and you can deflect arrows 1 + Dex times per round. If you have at least 18 dex, then you'll be able to deflect 5 arrows per round which should make his ranged attacks much less useful.

Then attach the Greater Crystal of Arrow Deflection armor crystal to your armor so that you get +5 AC versus ranged weapon attacks and also Deflect Arrows 1/round. (Note: the greater version of this crystal does require your armor to have at least a +3 armor enhancement bonus on it and that doesn't mean +3 equivalent. It needs an actual +3 enhancement.)

The graft is 13000gp and also costs 4hp to graft into your flesh. The crystal is 5000gp and will take up your armor's crystal slot (though you can still put another crystal on your shield). If what's ailing you is ranged attacks, then I think it's worth the 18000 cost to have +5 AC vs ranged attacks and a ton of automatic deflections per round.

[olentu]

You could be a dragon and grab the infinite deflection epic feat.

[Roog]

Pick up the feats Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows, and then take two levels of Martial Monk (Dragon 310) and get Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection as bonus feats.

That will allow you to deflect any ranged attack (including ranged spells with attack rolls).

[Curmudgeon]

You want a Dragonwrought Kobold, because dragons may select Epic feats without regard to the usual level (21+) requirement. Exceptional Deflection [Epic] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) will do exactly what you're asking for: deflect all ranged attacks, including ranged touch attack spells. Then it's just a matter of satisfying the normal requirements:
Prerequisites: Dex 21, Wis 19, Deflect Arrows, Improved Unarmed Strike.


Pick up the feats Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows, and then take two levels of Martial Monk (Dragon 310) and get Infinite Deflection and Exceptional Deflection as bonus feats.

That will allow you to deflect any ranged attack (including ranged spells with attack rolls). How are you getting that? Martial Monk (Dragon # 310, page 45) doesn't offer either of those feats. :smallconfused:

[TuggyNE]

Get total concealment behind a tower shield. Roll a hide check. As you disappear, so does your tower shield, by RAW, as I understand it. Enjoy free invisibility!

You mean free HiPS; you're not invisible (you still have to make the Hide check). Also, of course, you have to give up attacks for the round, which makes this highly impractical for a fighter.

[Slipperychicken]

then drop the tower shield when you're close enough.

It takes a move action to don/remove a shield. That could be problematic. Unless, of course, you one-hand a weapon and don't mind eating the -2 to hit.

[Knaight]

I'm operating on memory here, but: I seem to remember there being some sort of ranged sunder feat. Nothing neutralizes an archer like a busted bow, and if this is done with a throwing weapon of some sort that just makes things better.

[Roog]

How are you getting that? Martial Monk (Dragon # 310, page 45) doesn't offer either of those feats. :smallconfused:

1. Epic Level Handbook lists them as epic fighter bonus feats.
2. Martial Monk states "Gain: Fighter bonus feat to choose monk bonus feats".
3. Monk specifically does not need to have prerequisites for their bonus feats.

If epic fighter bonus feats are bonus fighter feats then Martial Monk can give them, if epic fighter bonus feats are not fighter bonus feats then then Martial Monk cannot give them. I can see epic fighter feats being read as fighter feats that are epic, or as being an entirely different category of feats that is named in a similar way.

[Curmudgeon]

1. Epic Level Handbook lists them as epic fighter bonus feats.
2. Martial Monk states "Gain: Fighter bonus feat to choose monk bonus feats".
3. Monk specifically does not need to have prerequisites for their bonus feats.
Bonus Feat

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Martial Monk Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level); Intimidate is a class skill.
The Martial Monk alters the Bonus Feat class feature "to choose monk feats". It does not alter the Bonus Feat class feature to add to the list of feats for which prerequisites are bypassed. (All those six feats are already on the Fighter Bonus Feat list.)

If epic fighter bonus feats are bonus fighter feats then Martial Monk can give them...
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Epic Fighter Bonus feats are only selectable at 21st level and above. The Epic Fighter Bonus Feat List (Epic Level Handbook, pages 11-12) is explicitly a separate list. TABLE 1–37: NONEPIC FEATS (Epic Level Handbook, page 69) lists non-Epic feats and includes the following footnote:
*This feat may be taken as one of a fighter’s bonus (nonepic) feats. There is no mingling of the two lists.

Your build runs afoul of the RAW not once but twice.

[Talderas]

how spellcasters are horrible

Hah. Get yourself an item with infinite uses of wind wall as a swift action.

Win initiative, strategically place wind walls to so that the only way he can attack you is to be adjacent. Make sure you have combat reflexes and a decent dex. Laugh.

[Deophaun]

Then attach the Greater Crystal of Arrow Deflection armor crystal to your armor so that you get +5 AC versus ranged weapon attacks and also Deflect Arrows 1/round. (Note: the greater version of this crystal does require your armor to have at least a +3 armor enhancement bonus on it and that doesn't mean +3 equivalent. It needs an actual +3 enhancement.)
The Greater Crystal only gives a +3 bonus to AC (because it's as the least crystal for some reason, not the lesser). Get the lesser version for the +5 and hang the arrow deflection.

[Segev]

I'd stay away from cheese that lets you "sequence break" or even early enter. The ranger is, I am assuming, at least mostly "normal" build, in that he's not been allowed TO options. To prove your point, stick to his level of practical optimization (at least in appearance).

As a very simple approach, smoke sticks are definitely a good way to start. That plus Blind-Fight gives you a 75% chance to hit him if you can pinpoint his square. You do not carry your smoke-sticks with you, either. You trigger them, then drop them, and move somewhere else. Now, he can't target your square, because he can't know where it is.

Max out Listen, despite it not being on your list of class skills. You are going to use that to pinpoint his square so you can declare your charge, when you're ready. ...hrm. This doesn't seem to be a native function of Listen. Does anybody know of a feat to let him achieve this?

If you're okay with core (but not PHB) templates, this is one time when lycanthropy might actually be worth it. Shift to wererat hybrid form and use Scent to locate him.

You can either use the deflect arrows chain of feats to block the one attack he could possibly get off with a readied action of "when I see that cowardly jerk move out of the smoke," or you can rely on DR/silver (if a lycanthrope) to mitigate it, or just soak it because fighters can take a hit. Or, you can put the smoke right on top of him and use Scent or some other means to locate his square, and charge right up next to him. If he takes his readied action within your Reach, not only will he provoke an AoO (free extra attack on top of your charge!), but the smoke will give him a 20-50% miss chance STILL. And Blind-fight reduces yours to 10%-25%.

Since he is insisting that casters and fighters are both weak, you might consider a Duskblade, from PHB II. If you use that, it gets True Strike, and you could pick up a Bat familiar at level 3. Bats have Blindsense. Give the bat the smokestick to carry, and have it fly in a precise way such that you know which square the target is in. True Strike lets you then ignore concealment. Use range, or use reach, or just get in melee; he can't exactly archery while you're in his face (unless he's using Arrow Mind, which is a spell, and he said spellcasters are weak, right?).

You can use the above trick with smokesticks and a bat familiar and true strike with a wizard or sorcerer and a heavy crossbow, too. Demonstrate to him that a spellcaster who is barely using spells can irritate him endlessly. By the time you can cast 2nd level spells, Wind Wall will all but terminate his ability to hit you with ranged attacks. If you go wizard, you can earn bonus points by going for the Chaingun Launch Bolt build. It takes numerous initially-dead feats at low level in order to have Split Ray, Reach Spell, Chain Spell, and Arcane Thesis (Launch Bolt) by level 6.

If you go Monk, instead, then definitely go for the deflect arrows tree and get Improved Grapple choices. Just charge him with superior speed and grapple him.

But a "not optimized against archers" ubercharger with tactical use of smoke sticks (which anybody could buy for dealing with archers) will easily shut him down.

A fighter/rogue combo could use terrain-altering tools (or tower shields) to get out of sight and hide, and then place caltrops around in order to control his movement, and then use smoke sticks to control visibility, and move with impunity into whatever ideal position you might wish. A UMD'd wand or scroll of True Strike can let you get one ranged sneak attack per every other round off, but there are probably better uses for the actions and money.

Even a Protection From Arrows spell, cast yourself or with a wand or scroll (yay UMD!), can make him lose 10 hp of damage per attack he makes, and give you time to slip in and stab. If you're feeling cheeky and have pick pocket and hide, you can sneak up behind him and steal his ammo.

[ArcaneGlyph]

I would make myself a nice uber charger. You are completely immune to his attacks if he is dead.

[SethoMarkus]

If you're feeling cheeky and have pick pocket and hide, you can sneak up behind him and steal his ammo.

The DC would either be 25 or 55 depending on whether a quiver of arrows/bolts counts as an "unattended small object" or as a "sheathed weapon", but Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain would allow you to Sleight of Hand the ranger's quiver from 30 feet away.

[Feint's End]

I would make myself a nice uber charger. You are completely immune to his attacks if he is dead.

second that .... you can just go with 1 level barbarian and 19 level fighter. Get an item for flight (winged vest works great) and do a flying charge during the first round (range 120 ft range and ignore difficult terrain). Heck ... you can get an item of windwall or some other way of arrow deflection just for the lulz.

[Segev]

The DC would either be 25 or 55 depending on whether a quiver of arrows/bolts counts as an "unattended small object" or as a "sheathed weapon", but Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain would allow you to Sleight of Hand the ranger's quiver from 30 feet away.

I don't doubt that you have a source, but the SRD doesn't seem to be it. Where are you getting those DCs? (I wouldn't want to see DC 20 be able to substitute for any amount of disarm check, personally, so I'm happy to see more solid rules.)

[SethoMarkus]

I don't doubt that you have a source, but the SRD doesn't seem to be it. Where are you getting those DCs? (I wouldn't want to see DC 20 be able to substitute for any amount of disarm check, personally, so I'm happy to see more solid rules.)

Sleight of Hand to pick pocket a small unattended object off of a victim DC is listed in Players Handbook as well as SRD under the Open Game License. (DC 20)

Sleight of Hand to pick pocket a sheathed weapon was found in this SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sleight_of_Hand_Skill), under Open Game License. (DC 50) (I was not aware of this one until I was looking up the SRD to confirm the DC 20 for the prior.)

Ranger Legerdemain is found as a class feature of Arcane Trickster in the DMG and SRD under Open Game License. It states that it adds 5 to the DC of any act of legerdemain attempted through use of the class feature. (DC +5)

And for clarity, the quiver holding arrows/bolts is 3lb/1lb respectively. (Ranged Legerdemain specifies the object must weigh less than 5lbs.) (Also available through Players Handbook and SRD, under OGL.)

EDIT:
As an aside, I believe the DC 50 for using sleight of hand to pick pocket a sheathed weapon is an Epic use of the skill, but I only have an assumption to go off of here. Personally, if ruled that the quiver is an attended object/sheathed 'weapon' I wouldn't attempt this, but if it counts as a "small, unattended object" go for it!

[Segev]

You're correct; lifting a sheathed weapon is an Epic usage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm); I looked it up after you mentioned you thought so.

Lifting a "small object" is still frustratingly vague; can you "lift" a dagger (a light weapon) from somebody's hand in order to pull off the "you stab with a banana" kind of sight gag?

[Somensjev]

Build a normal fighter.

Buy smokesticks.

lots of people mentioned smokesticks, could anyone give me a price, and a book (gonna assume DMG but am currently AFB)


Fighter gets Tower Shield proficiency for free at first level. It can be used for cover, which dramatically cuts back on the ability of ranged attacks to hit you.


again, lots of people mention towershields, but is it worth it?


They can still target your square (50% miss chance, but better than nothing.) Some item that grants a wind wall effect will protect you from arrows completely though.

EDIT: Craft a constant-effect item of Fickle Winds. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/fickle-winds)

wind wall was my first idea, and i guess i should clarify, we're playing 3.5, but my DM would probably allow PF stuff, and even 3.0


Get total concealment behind a tower shield. Roll a hide check. As you disappear, so does your tower shield, by RAW, as I understand it. Enjoy free invisibility!

free "invisibility" sounds fun :smallamused:


I'm operating on memory here, but: I seem to remember there being some sort of ranged sunder feat. Nothing neutralizes an archer like a busted bow, and if this is done with a throwing weapon of some sort that just makes things better.

that. would. be. awesome! :smallbiggrin:


If you're feeling cheeky and have pick pocket and hide, you can sneak up behind him and steal his ammo.

that is possibly the most evil thing i've heard, i applaud you :smallwink:


I would make myself a nice uber charger. You are completely immune to his attacks if he is dead.

please explain uber charger (i realise it's an awesome charger, but more details may be nice)

------------------------------------

also, thought i may mention, we're both getting WBL and any money we dont spend is sent to the winner of each battle, so saving up only happens if i cant lose, and we're going to have 20 battles, for levels 1 through 20

[Telonius]

Drastic Measures: pick up Ghostwalk. Incorporeal creatures are immune to mundane corporeal attacks, and only a 50% chance of being affected by magic.

EDIT: Unless the weapon happens to be Ghost Touch, of course.

[Segev]

Smokesticks are 20 gp each and create a cloud of opaque smoke in a 10 ft. cube. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#specialSubstancesAndItems)

[Ksheep]

I'd second the "Sunder his weapon" idea, although pickpocketing his ammo does sound like fun…*and if that fails, why not sunder his ammo? See what he does then…

[Immabozo]

please explain uber charger (i realise it's an awesome charger, but more details may be nice)

also, thought i may mention, we're both getting WBL and any money we dont spend is sent to the winner of each battle, so saving up only happens if i cant lose, and we're going to have 20 battles, for levels 1 through 20

That sounds like a fun tournament!

An ubercharger is someone who charges and hits for massive amounts of damage.

I had a half ogre/half minotaur (Dragon Mag templates, both LA +1, but stacked, can be LA of only +1) barbarian warhulk bear warrior (I was prepared to RAW rules lawyer that one!) who ran around with around 350 hp, 52 AC, 45+ str, 38+ con, 31 fort save and no fail on a 1, +19 will saves, charge and hit for 90-100 damage per hit, attacking 5 times per turn, each attack hitting 3 squares, each hit giving my a free bull rush where I dont move with them at a +50 bullsrush, I had reach and every time someone provoked an AoO I just bull rushed them away from me after damage, and then the could still provoke another, with 6 or 8 AoO per round. It was glorious. I was building up to hitting every square I threaten with each attack.

But I suggest a rogue who covers his blades in Luhix, page 42 of BOVD. Not only is the drug the worst addiction, second hit is no save (very painful) death AND it's the only drug which is administered via injury!

[Somensjev]

Smokesticks are 20 gp each and create a cloud of opaque smoke in a 10 ft. cube. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#specialSubstancesAndItems)

i think i know where most of my starting gold is going :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

One thing I usually forget until reminded (hence why I only remembered now-ish) is that there are rules for breathing inside smoke clouds. They're not friendly. Look them up; you'll want to hold your breath while in them yourself, and try to keep him in them if you want to exploit them a bit so that he has to breathe it in. I think it can cost him actions if he fails a fort. save.


Edit: Yet another use for Unseen Servants, as well - they don't breathe, and can carry the smoke sticks around for you to keep the guy having trouble with his own line of sight.

[ericgrau]

Build a normal fighter.

Buy smokesticks.
Don't forget blind fight and a high listen modifier. So you need a barbarian dip or some such. It's a DC 20 listen check to find a fighting archer. If he stops shooting and sneaks quietly it's DC 20+his move silently check. But you can at least get a rough direction with DC 0 / DC move silently.

A tower shield is great for long range. There's pretty much nothing the archer can do if you set it for total cover at long range. At short range he can go around and shoot. But that's when you smokestick yourself.

I don't think smokesticks cause breathing problems. It's not the same as smoke from a house fire. All it says is "treat it like a fog cloud spell" so I think we can assume it's as safe to breath as a movie smoke bomb.

I think a good strategy could be get close, smokestick yourself, get within charging range, charge and sunder the bow. Improved sunder isn't essential against a bow, but it's nice. If you can't do 10 damage in one hit then disarming and guarding the bow might be better. If he runs, then sunder it.

[Darrin]

Smokesticks are 20 gp each and create a cloud of opaque smoke in a 10 ft. cube. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#specialSubstancesAndItems)

Unfortunately, they still need to be lit. So buy Liquid Smoke instead (Oriental Adventures). 20 GP, so same price as smokesticks, but all you have to do is throw the bottle against something hard, and *bamf* you got smoke.

While you're over in OA getting Liquid Smoke, pick up some Dust Eggshell Grenades (10 GP each). Hit Mr. Hawkeye with that, and everything around him gets total concealment for 1d4 rounds.

[John Longarrow]

CS,

If you want a different approach to beating him, make a better archer than he has. Using a 32 point buy, I'd go S 14, D 16, Con 14, Int 14, W 10 X 10. Concept below works well with human or elf.

Level 1, Fighter(1). Do a high Dex/Int build. Take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Far Shot. You get two arrows a round and a longer range than him. Means if you are using a comp longbow you can sit at 150 and trade shots with him with you having and advantage. Add in you having more hitpoints and you should win. NOTE: Put 4 skill points into tumble for later.

Level 2, Fighter(2). Take Weapon Focus(Comp Longbow). at this point you should have a better bonus to hit than him.

Level 3, Take a level in wizard(1). You should match his to hit, but you can now toss up shield or some other fun stuff while outranging him. Grab Dodge for later or if he decides he need to fight you up close.

Level 4 Wizard(2) while you boost Dex. You should still match his to hit or be close. This fight may be a little hard as he should have an advantage in HPs. You should still have a better AC since you can toss spells.

Level 5 Wizard (3). 2nd level spells give you cats grace and some other funs stuff. He will have an advantage in HPs, but you should have an advantage to hit and in AC.

Level 6 Barbarian(1) and take Dodge as your bonus feat. You are down 2 points of BAB compared to the Ranger at this point. You can make up for it in melee by raging if you need, plus you've just gotten faster.

Level 7 Wizard (4) - more spells and a point of BAB, but you will need to on your spells to keep up.

Level 8 Dragonslayer (1). Good Hitpoints, full BAB, and a caster level. Total GISH stuff starts now...

Levels 9-13 Abjurant Champion. By level 13 you should have a BAB of 11 and be able to toss 5th level spells. Some time before you hit this point the Ranger should be wondering why you are handing his buttocks to him on a large silver platter.

After 13th level you can have fun making a better archer than the Ranger.

[Deophaun]

Go archerficer. You can do some fun stuff, and aside from going straight Artificer, you don't need any real Character Op to do it.

For instance:
-Leomund's Secure Shelter (wood)
-Clairvoyance/clairaudience to see outside
-Wand of Woodwisp Arrow

Now you can shoot at him from your favorite comfy chair, sipping tea as a move action while listening to the crackle of the fireplace.

[Roog]

The Martial Monk alters the Bonus Feat class feature "to choose monk feats". It does not alter the Bonus Feat class feature to add to the list of feats for which prerequisites are bypassed. (All those six feats are already on the Fighter Bonus Feat list.)

You are reading the line "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." as applying only to those specific feats, rather that any feats granted by the monks bonus feat class feature. I don't necessarily agree with that reading, but it doesn't matter, because rules for bonus feats in the Monster Manual make it clear that bonus feats do not require their prerequisites to be fulfilled. As the monk does not have a clause stating that their bonus feats require the prerequisites to be met (unlike the fighter), then the bonus feats work as normal.

As for 2nd part, you quote one way to get epic feats (At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat), but ignore the other.

Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
Furthermore, that list makes no claim to be an exclusive list of the ways to gain epic feats, so gaining an epic feat another way would not contradict it.

I see nothing in what you have said that would clearly confirm you claim that the "the Epic Fighter Bonus Feat List (Epic Level Handbook, pages 11-12) is explicitly a separate list."

However, after taking a look through the ELH I do see a problem with trying to get these feats this way. That problem is that being an epic character is not a "prerequisite" for getting epic feats. The ELH makes it clear on page 50 that some epic feats have no prerequisites, and the sidebar on page 25 says that a character with ECL over 20 is eligible to select epic feats. This means that an ability to ignore prerequisites does not ignore the eligibility requirement (which seems to be ECL 21 or more) for epic feats.

[Immabozo]

Lemme reiterate, since it seems to have been lost. Cover your blades with Luhix (BoVD), first hit, no save paralyzed with pain for 1 minute, second hit, no save death (from overwhelming pain). Must be on a slashing weapon.

[Deophaun]

Lemme reiterate, since it seems to have been lost. Cover your blades with Luhix (BoVD), first hit, no save paralyzed with pain for 1 minute, second hit, no save death (from overwhelming pain). Must be on a slashing weapon.
That's not exactly showing the ranger up, as rangers can do the exact same thing with serpentstounge arrows (RotW). In fact, since archers have the range advantage, this actually is something that they're better at than non-archers.

I'd say if the ranger could pick up the tactic and do it better than his challenger, the challenger has lost the war, even if he does win the battle.

[Somensjev]

Lemme reiterate, since it seems to have been lost. Cover your blades with Luhix (BoVD), first hit, no save paralyzed with pain for 1 minute, second hit, no save death (from overwhelming pain). Must be on a slashing weapon.

that's just evil, i like it :smallamused:
best part is, i can make his character addicted to it (because in the coliseum, if we die we get resurrected, but we won't be cured if we get addicted)

[Somensjev]

That's not exactly showing the ranger up, as rangers can do the exact same thing with serpentstounge arrows (RotW). In fact, since archers have the range advantage, this actually is something that they're better at than non-archers.

I'd say if the ranger could pick up the tactic and do it better than his challenger, the challenger has lost the war, even if he does win the battle.

that's true
would something along the lines of smokesticks, a towersheild, a kukri (or a weapon with a wider crit range), some crit stacking, and luhix work? :smallconfused:

[Immabozo]

that's just evil, i like it :smallamused:
best part is, i can make his character addicted to it (because in the coliseum, if we die we get resurrected, but we won't be cured if we get addicted)

I agree. But on a second reading, it is a DC 25 fort save or die. Still insta-death at low levels, a hard DC at mid and still nothing to sneeze at, at higher levels.

[Somensjev]

CS,

If you want a different approach to beating him, make a better archer than he has. Using a 32 point buy, I'd go S 14, D 16, Con 14, Int 14, W 10 X 10. Concept below works well with human or elf.

Level 1, Fighter(1). Do a high Dex/Int build. Take Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Far Shot. You get two arrows a round and a longer range than him. Means if you are using a comp longbow you can sit at 150 and trade shots with him with you having and advantage. Add in you having more hitpoints and you should win. NOTE: Put 4 skill points into tumble for later.

Level 2, Fighter(2). Take Weapon Focus(Comp Longbow). at this point you should have a better bonus to hit than him.

Level 3, Take a level in wizard(1). You should match his to hit, but you can now toss up shield or some other fun stuff while outranging him. Grab Dodge for later or if he decides he need to fight you up close.

Level 4 Wizard(2) while you boost Dex. You should still match his to hit or be close. This fight may be a little hard as he should have an advantage in HPs. You should still have a better AC since you can toss spells.

Level 5 Wizard (3). 2nd level spells give you cats grace and some other funs stuff. He will have an advantage in HPs, but you should have an advantage to hit and in AC.

Level 6 Barbarian(1) and take Dodge as your bonus feat. You are down 2 points of BAB compared to the Ranger at this point. You can make up for it in melee by raging if you need, plus you've just gotten faster.

Level 7 Wizard (4) - more spells and a point of BAB, but you will need to on your spells to keep up.

Level 8 Dragonslayer (1). Good Hitpoints, full BAB, and a caster level. Total GISH stuff starts now...

Levels 9-13 Abjurant Champion. By level 13 you should have a BAB of 11 and be able to toss 5th level spells. Some time before you hit this point the Ranger should be wondering why you are handing his buttocks to him on a large silver platter.

After 13th level you can have fun making a better archer than the Ranger.

that seems fun, but i dont want to use any classes above tier 3

edit: is it possible to always make a DC 30 alchemy check, before level 5?

[Immabozo]

that seems fun, but i dont want to use any classes above tier 3

edit: is it possible to always make a DC 30 alchemy check, before level 5?

Roll a 20?

[Yogibear41]

because dragons may select Epic feats without regard to the usual level (21+) requirement.

Where is this rule from if you don't mind me asking?

[olentu]

Where is this rule from if you don't mind me asking?

Draconomicon p. 66, though it only applies to dragons of old age or older.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't necessarily agree with that reading, but it doesn't matter, because rules for bonus feats in the Monster Manual make it clear that bonus feats do not require their prerequisites to be fulfilled.

That rule is for creature (i.e., racial) bonus feats.
Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat.
The Monster Manual's authority is over monsters, not classes. The Player's Handbook is the authority for base class rules, and has no similar rule regarding bonus feats. Instead, it has this rule:
Prerequisites

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.


Errata Rule: Primary Sources

When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees.

Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities.

[John Longarrow]

that seems fun, but i dont want to use any classes above tier 3

edit: is it possible to always make a DC 30 alchemy check, before level 5?

CS, Not sure what classes are considered for each tier. Never thought about any class as being better/worse than any other, especially since the groups I play with tend to do a lot of multi-classing.

For fun, go Bard to begin with. 1st level you could grab Masters Touch to do the cover and close trick with a tower shield.

Get close and charm person or sleep the ranger. Alternately use a Silent Image to make it look like you summoned an ogre and hide behind it. If you play smart, at low levels a Bard can really mess with a ranged combatant. Course at 2nd/3rd level grab a qualls feather tolken - whip to totally mess with him :smallbiggrin: