Tips for Maximum Dakka.

[Soilborn]

Okay, so I'm trying to make a ranged weapon Barbarian for a 3.5 game as a sort of thematic character. The goal with him is to effectively put as many (preferably) bolts down range as effectively as possible. Bonus points if he can dual-wield crossbows.

Clearly the Rapid Reload feat and Whirling Frenzy ACF are on the table. Sadly, one cannot load a crossbow with one-hand, and even repeating crossbows require a second hand to re-**** the string, so it seems that dual-wielding is out here even with Rapid Reload. Are there any other ways I can conjure up some other crossbow shenanigans?

Any help in my quest for maximum dakka would be much appreciated, and let me stress that I'm looking to get functionality and cool factors first and efficiency second.

[Psyren]

If your race isn't locked in - Warforged have a component called an Armbow (ECS) that functions in all ways as a repeating light crossbow, but can be reloaded with a thought (a free action.) By mounting one on each arm, you can dual-wield them.

Loading the bows costs 1 hp per bolt; however this is treated exactly as if you took damage. This could mean that damage reduction will prevent you from losing any HP. If your DM is not on board with that though, just get fast healing or repair yourself later.

[OldTrees1]

Handcrossbow Focus is the Weapon Focus feat for handcrossbows it also allows you to reload handcrossbows as a free action.

Honestly I would suspect it would be possible to reload a handcrossbow using the other hand even if the other hand is holding a handcrossbow. This suspicion is based on the size of the handcrossbow and handcrossbow bolts. So Two Weapon Fighting might not be off the table.
Note: there is a drow weapon style feat for fighting with a handcrossbow and rapier. They must have some way of reloading it right?

Another option would be to be a thri-keen so you have 4 arms. You could use handcrossbows in 3 (multiweapon fighting) and use the 4th to reload them.

There is a variant of Fighter from Dragon Magazine called Kensai that has 2 special options it can take instead of a feat at a level:
-3 on all attacks to get 1 extra attack at full BAB
-6 on all attacks to get 2 extra attacks at full BAB (requires the above ability)

The Speed Weapon enhancement gives an extra attack with full BAB

[Psyren]

Of relevance:

http://v.cdn.cad-comic.com/comics/cad-20101025-45206.jpg

[gorfnab]

Hand Crossbow Focus and a +X Aptitude Splitting Great Crossbow

[GnomeGninjas]

Just buy a whole bunch of repeating crossbows, when one runs out of ammo you drop it (free action) and quickdraw another one (free action). You would look absolutely ridiculous but you could dual-wield crossbows.

[Hytheter]

Keep in mind dual wielding rapid shotting crossbows has like a -6 penalty. You'll be blasting bolts all over the place, but you won't be hitting anything.

[Piggy Knowles]

Dual wield hand crossbows, take Quick Draw, and keep a whole lot of pre-loaded hand crossbows, drawing and dropping them after each shot. Channel Il Duce (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfXuNJxWw88), take Leadership, and have your cohort shout "IT WAS A FIREFIGHT!"

(Warning: Link has some blood and strong language.)

[Hamste]

Another option is to either hire or dominate two level 1 commoners and have them reload your crossbows for you (Try to convince the dm that they should let you attach a towershield to their back so they can have complete cover while reloading)

[Samalpetey]

Keep in mind dual wielding rapid shotting crossbows has like a -6 penalty. You'll be blasting bolts all over the place, but you won't be hitting anything.

I've got to -4 from rapid shot+TWF, but where'd the last -2 come from?

[Uhtred]

As a guy who actually owns a couple of 50-lb hand crossbows with modern cocking mechanisms, IRL loading with one hand is non-viable without a fixed length of cable, a harness or tac vest with reinforced loops, and hooking the cable to the crossbow and the other end to your vest, and using your chest as a brace and your upper body strength to haul the string back into the groove, which still does not solve the issue of the bolt.
Fortunately, in D&D, the whole thing can be solved with the Magic Item Compendium's "Quick-Loading" enchantment, which stores up to a hundred bolts of varying kinds in an extra dimensional space and will load a light or hand crossbow as a free action (and a heavy as a move action) specifically saying in the text that it will give you as many shots as you have attacks. It does not specify whether your off-hand needs to be free to held the loading process, if it's magical then I don't imagine that it does. Ergo, with a pair of quick-loading heavy crossbows and the rapid reload feat (which I would rule, together, was capable of dropping the heavy's reload time to a free action) you could dual-wield heavy crossbows for as many attacks as you have. Lots of Dakka there. Grab a couple of Arbalester Homunculi and drop quick-loading on them for further Dakka. Be a Thri-Kreen for further Dakka. Profit.
So. I recall a crossbow called the Triple Threat that would fire three bolts at once (at the same target, with separate attack rolls, as one attack) that worked on the mechanics of having three separate bolt grooves. Ask your DM if you can enchant each groove with Quick-Loading, bringing each down to a Move. Take Rapid Reload, dropping it to a Free. Enjoy, as a 20th-level Ranger, firing a dozen bolts in a full attack. Have someone cast Haste for fifteen. Dakkadakkadakka.

[Soilborn]

Handcrossbow Focus is the Weapon Focus feat for handcrossbows it also allows you to reload handcrossbows as a free action.

Honestly I would suspect it would be possible to reload a handcrossbow using the other hand even if the other hand is holding a handcrossbow. This suspicion is based on the size of the handcrossbow and handcrossbow bolts. So Two Weapon Fighting might not be off the table.
Note: there is a drow weapon style feat for fighting with a handcrossbow and rapier. They must have some way of reloading it right?

There is a variant of Fighter from Dragon Magazine called Kensai that has 2 special options it can take instead of a feat at a level:
-3 on all attacks to get 1 extra attack at full BAB
-6 on all attacks to get 2 extra attacks at full BAB (requires the above ability)

The Speed Weapon enhancement gives an extra attack with full BAB

Even though the feats Rapid Reload and Hand Crossbow Focus permit the reloading of crossbows as free actions, there is nothing in the text of the feats that specify the involvement of what hands need to be free to do what, whereas in the PHB in the section on hand crossbows there most certainly is, at least on the topic of hands used. There is nothing anywhere I've looked saying that the hands have to be FREE. I think that this really depends upon GM fiat.

As for the Kensai, in the case of a gestalt game that would be a definite draw.


If your race isn't locked in - Warforged have a component called an Armbow (ECS) that functions in all ways as a repeating light crossbow, but can be reloaded with a thought (a free action.) By mounting one on each arm, you can dual-wield them.

This. THIS. So much this.


Fortunately, in D&D, the whole thing can be solved with the Magic Item Compendium's "Quick-Loading" enchantment, which stores up to a hundred bolts of varying kinds in an extra dimensional space and will load a light or hand crossbow as a free action (and a heavy as a move action) specifically saying in the text that it will give you as many shots as you have attacks. It does not specify whether your off-hand needs to be free to held the loading process, if it's magical then I don't imagine that it does. Ergo, with a pair of quick-loading heavy crossbows and the rapid reload feat (which I would rule, together, was capable of dropping the heavy's reload time to a free action) you could dual-wield heavy crossbows for as many attacks as you have.

This is also a superb idea. Thank you all for your help so far.

So we're looking at two hand crossbows (for minimal attack loss while dual-wielding) with Quick Loading, which is awesome as a +1 enchantment, Rapid Reload, Whirling Frenzy, and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat line. How else can we pimp this out?

[Vaz]

Totemist 2 Dip, Girallon arms.

Spell Girallons' Blessing.

[Maginomicon]

Spell Girallons' Blessing.
...and the "Arms of Plenty" spell.

[Beelzebub1111]

So we're looking at two hand crossbows (for minimal attack loss while dual-wielding) with Quick Loading, which is awesome as a +1 enchantment, Rapid Reload, Whirling Frenzy, and the Two-Weapon Fighting feat line. How else can we pimp this out?

With quick loading, you don't need rapid reload. And put the Speed enhancement on them (+3 bonus, extra attack at full BaB +/-modifiers on situation, as dual-weilding or point blank shot)

With that extra feat you can take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and take light crossbows instead for a range of 80ft instead of 30ft and slightly better damage.

Then fill it with bolts of various elements, let's say 25 Flaming, 25 Frost, 25 Shocking, 25 Corrosive in each. So you're prepared for any elemental situation.

[Lightlawbliss]

With quick loading, you don't need rapid reload. And put the Speed enhancement on them (+3 bonus, extra attack at full BaB +/-modifiers on situation, as dual-weilding or point blank shot)

why speed? splitting is so much better.


With that extra feat you can take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and take light crossbows instead for a range of 80ft instead of 30ft and slightly better damage.

correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't he just get small light crossbows instead for only a little less damage?


Then fill it with bolts of various elements, let's say 25 Flaming, 25 Frost, 25 Shocking, 25 Corrosive in each. So you're prepared for any elemental situation.
why are you loading it with ONLY elemental damage bolts? They are some of the worst options in gp per damage by the time quick loading become worth while. Bane bolts for common enemy types would be better, with a good supply of normal bolts for when magic ones aren't worth it.

[Hytheter]

I've got to -4 from rapid shot+TWF, but where'd the last -2 come from?

Crossbows enforce a penalty when held in one hand. -2 for Light, -4 for Heavy. Hand Crossbows don't have one but they're weak and they're exotic weapons, so they require a feat to use.



correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't he just get small light crossbows instead for only a little less damage?

Then you get a differenct -2 penalty for incorrectly sized weapons.

[Fyermind]

The How:
+1 splitting Aptitude Great Crossbow
Feats:
Hand Crossbow Focus
Improved Critical (something)
Weapon focus (Light Mace)
Two Weapon Fighting
Combat reflexes
Lightning maces
Improved Unarmed Strike
Power Attack
Roundabout Kick
Season to taste with archer feats and extra attack granting feats

The What:
Each attack as a 18-20 base threat range widened to 15-20. Each attack fires twice at the same attack bonus and threatens criticals independently. Each threat triggers an extra attack (two attacks with splitting) for free. If a threat confirms it grants another two attacks for free. Ask your DM if it has to be able to hit to count as a threat... (this results in a LOT of attacks including non-finite average numbers of attacks if you hit on a low enough number)

Add-ons:

Woodland Archery: You missed with one of your many attacks because they all tank your to hit bonus? All later attacks have +4 to hit. You're welcome. This makes every feat that gives you extra attacks worth it. If you get this, take the rest of them.

Blood In The Water: Criticals give you +1 to hit and to damage until a minute after your last critical, Crossbows suck at dealing damage. Now they don't after you've had a moment to get warmed up.

Anything that grants extra attacks: Extra attacks are always good, but you get them multiplied. For example if you hit on a 15, each attach you get (before splitting) is 2 (with splitting) plus 6/20 chance each of another 2+6/20 of another 2 recursively. I've calculated this many times walking to and from classes, but forget the calculations at the moment. In the above example your each hit generates 2 free attacks and one roll to confirm. If you confirm, you get 2 free attacks and deal critical damage. Free attacks work just like the original attack.

The Limitations:
This requires a LOT of feats. The minimal build uses 9 feats, and really really wants Woodland archery for 10. It also requires an aptitude weapon which has a minimal cost of 8000 gp.

A build
Lets build this for a level 10 character because below that it won't work.

Human (or stronheart halfling) Barbarian 1 (Whirling frenzy, you wanted a barbarian) / Warblade 1 (Blood in the water, some other utility maneuvers) / Psychic Warrior 2 (feats, there is probably a good power for this character, I haven't thought of it yet) / Martial Rogue 2 (more feats, also evasion and you now qualify for hand crossbow proficiency) / Fighter 4 (More feats!)

Base wealth for a level 10 character is enough to definitely afford a +1 aptitude Great Crossbow, and totally not enough for a +1 Aptitude Splitting great crossbow. (actually only 1400 some gp shy if you spent ALL your money on it)

Funnily enough despite having two weapon fighting, this character does not need to dual wield to be effective, though if it gets a good way to dual wield great crossbows, it becomes worth while with an item of greater two weapon fighting and woodland archery.

Until the build becomes an archery build it remains a serviceable melee build without feat synergy. In a party with someone going rainbow warsnake you will feel right at home if they aren't using early entry shenanigans, you'll just be the mundane to their caster the whole time.

Math:
I'm crunching numbers on the build in java as I type because it got too unwieldly for wolfram alpha. I'll post results later, but for now, if a 15 hits and a 14 does not, each base attack (after splitting on the first set) is worth about 13 hits (counting crits as 3 hits). This ignores Woodland Archer and Blood in the water. I'm working on it.


Edit:
Definition: "number of hitting values" is 21 minus the minimum roll that hits
why 21? because if I hit on a 20 only, I have 1 way I can hit on a d20 roll, if I hit on a 5, I have six (20, 19, 18, 17, 16 ,15), etc.
Assumptions:
Base damage 2d8+1 (+1 great crossbow)
Woodland archer (+4 to hit after a miss, starts at 0)
Blood in the water (+1 to hit, +1 to damage after a critical, starts at 0)
there is no miss chance or free deflections
Nothing else interferes with the archers ability to attack such as running out of bolts or taking a DMG to the head

Results for percentage of times this lead to over 300 damage out of 100,000 tries
{table=head] | DR 0 | DR 5 | DR 10 | DR 15 | DR 20
NoHV 1 | 23.66 | 21.82 | 20.503 | 19.418 | 18.747
NoHV 2 | 24.847 | 23.241 | 21.194 | 20.433 | 19.804
NoHV 3 | 26.012 | 24.144 | 22.539 | 21.202 | 20.615
NoHV 4 | 26.966 | 25.022 | 23.489 | 22.309 | 21.652
NoHV 5 | 28.254 | 26.365 | 24.912 | 23.471 | 22.679
NoHV 6 | 29.578 | 27.615 | 25.906 | 24.416 | 23.62
NoHV 7 | 30.961 | 28.339 | 26.764 | 25.672 | 24.696
NoHV 8 | 31.776 | 29.55 | 27.833 | 26.294 | 25.378
NoHV 9 | 33.157 | 30.483 | 28.766 | 27.131 | 25.987
NoHV 10 | 33.765 | 31.618 | 29.514 | 28.123 | 27.122
NoHV 11 | 35.196 | 32.279 | 30.522 | 28.941 | 28.179
NoHV 12 | 35.898 | 33.436 | 31.33 | 29.858 | 28.617
NoHV 13 | 36.852 | 34.334 | 32.154 | 30.539 | 29.523
NoHV 14 | 37.916 | 35.293 | 32.811 | 31.327 | 30.575
NoHV 15 | 38.538 | 36.29 | 33.852 | 32.298 | 31.098
NoHV 16 | 39.5 | 37.031 | 34.655 | 32.943 | 31.898
NoHV 17 | 40.314 | 37.811 | 35.394 | 33.624 | 32.386
NoHV 18 | 41.317 | 38.549 | 36.371 | 34.123 | 33.303
NoHV 19 | 42.641 | 39.432 | 37.099 | 35.235 | 34.252
NoHV 20 | 43.285 | 39.992 | 37.317 | 35.593 | 34.6

[/table]

Results for average damage of attacks dealing less than 300 damage (including zeros)
{table=head] | DR 0 | DR 5 | DR 10 | DR 15 | DR 20
NoHV 1 | 32.1 | 22.3 | 11.9 | 4.8 | 2.3
NoHV 2 | 34.1 | 23.8 | 12.7 | 5.3 | 2.6
NoHV 3 | 36.2 | 25.5 | 13.6 | 5.6 | 2.6
NoHV 4 | 37.9 | 27.0 | 14.1 | 5.8 | 2.9
NoHV 5 | 40.3 | 28.1 | 15.1 | 6.3 | 3.0
NoHV 6 | 42.6 | 29.8 | 16.1 | 6.8 | 3.1
NoHV 7 | 44.3 | 31.5 | 16.5 | 7.0 | 3.3
NoHV 8 | 46.3 | 32.1 | 17.3 | 7.4 | 3.7
NoHV 9 | 48.1 | 33.9 | 17.6 | 7.7 | 3.8
NoHV 10 | 50.5 | 35.5 | 18.9 | 8.1 | 3.7
NoHV 11 | 52.8 | 36.7 | 19.4 | 8.1 | 4.0
NoHV 12 | 54.0 | 37.5 | 20.0 | 8.2 | 4.3
NoHV 13 | 55.6 | 39.0 | 20.6 | 9.1 | 4.3
NoHV 14 | 57.8 | 40.5 | 21.2 | 9.1 | 4.4
NoHV 15 | 60.3 | 41.6 | 22.0 | 9.6 | 4.5
NoHV 16 | 61.5 | 42.9 | 22.8 | 9.6 | 4.8
NoHV 17 | 62.4 | 43.8 | 23.25 | 10.2 | 4.8
NoHV 18 | 64.72 | 44.7 | 24.2 | 10.4 | 4.9
NoHV 19 | 66.7 | 46.5 | 24.9 | 10.8 | 5.2
NoHV 20 | 68.2 | 48.1 | 25.8 | 11.0 | 5.3
[/table]



Edit, I added tables to the math section. Good thing there is nothing to do here between 1 and 4 am.

[Maginomicon]

Ask your DM if it has to be able to hit to count as a threat.Just a minor note: By RAW, normally a roll in the threat range still has to beat the AC to count as a threat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#increasedThreatRange).

[Maginomicon]

Okay, so I'm trying to make a ranged weapon BarbarianBe sure to pick up the Ferocity ACF from Cityscape (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), as that'll give you a bonus to DEX when "raging".

Ask your GM whether Ferocity still counts as rage for the purpose of prerequisites (it should, if your GM has any sense of what's right and good in the world since usually "melee can't have nice things").

[Fyermind]

Just a minor note: By RAW, normally a roll in the threat range still has to beat the AC to count as a threat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#increasedThreatRange).

Thank you! I'll go correct the program and update the tables. I was afraid of that. I'm so deep into that it doesn't really matter now though anyway.

Edit: And I'd already done that last night.