DM problem: 6man ranged party??

[Griffenstein]

So, I'm a brand new DM and I've got a party of 6 players who I encouraged to make whatever they would enjoy most. So they did. And I ended up with 6 ranged characters.
Party is composed of all lvl 1: Wizard, Sorceror, Seeker, Casting cleric, archery ranger, and a cunning bard who uses a wand and all magic attacks.

They worked really hard on their individual characters and came up with some great backstories. They are all really excited about the characters they made. But they have no melee capabilities. I am concerned that if they go down into a dungeon with closed off spaces they will get shredded by opportunity attacks and friendly fire from the area spells. not really sure what to do.
Any thoughts are very much appreciated.

[Kurald Galain]

I would expect the opposite: an all-ranged party can probably kite most opponents to death. Aside from that, avoiding opportunity attacks is remarkably easy, considering there are feats and items available that just make you stop provoking them. And most of the listed classes don't have friendly fire issues, because they either do ranged attacks or enemy-only bursts.

I'd suggest you try it with a few simple encounters, it's probably not that big a deal.

[Griffenstein]

I would expect the opposite: an all-ranged party can probably kite most opponents to death. Aside from that, avoiding opportunity attacks is remarkably easy, considering there are feats and items available that just make you stop provoking them. And most of the listed classes don't have friendly fire issues, because they either do ranged attacks or enemy-only bursts.

I'd suggest you try it with a few simple encounters, it's probably not that big a deal.

Thanks so much for the quick reply! I guess I was worried about how to handle ranged attackers in close quarters. I make my own 3d dungeon terrain and I was worried I'd have to create a whole new set of larger dungeon tiles and rooms to accommodate ranged characters.

[NecroRebel]

That party is short a Defender, but the Wizard is a suitable full-time Controller, and the Sorcerer, Cleric, and Bard can moonlight as one if they need to, so they should be able to hinder enemy movements and move around the party to keep OAs down. The Seeker is there, too, and might be able to help with that once or twice during the campaign.

If your party keeps their own mobility high and takes many mobility-decreasing attacks, I agree with Kurald - they'll be able to kite any enemy to death. You may find yourself needing to use lots of ranged monsters just to get hits on the party if they take enough slowing, immobilizing, and forced-moving powers to keep enemies away.

[windgate]

Tactics change in parties without defenders (or melee), and it is a viable party.

Your Controllers need to invest significant resources into initiative boosts. Open each fight (first turn) with daily powers designed to Slow, Immobilize, Prone all the melee enemies.

The following characters should be able to get this going:
Wizard
Seeker
Ranger (Hobbling Strike + World Serpents grasp feats)
Bard (to a limited extent)

The party then kites these things around the room while focus firing the ranged enemies. Remind the players that nobody in the party is designed to be durable, so everyone needs to be willing to take some damage.

Frankly just suggest that everyone picks up the "worlds serpent grasp" feat and find ways to cause the triggering conditions.

Staff Expertise and certain bow enchants permit making ranged attacks that don't provoke opportunity attacks.

[Kurald Galain]

The Seeker is there, too, and might be able to help with that once or twice during the campaign.

Yes :smallamused: If you want to change party composition, you should probably start by switching this guy into a defender, or indeed almost anything other than a seeker.

[BlckDv]

Yeah; the way I read this the party is not inherently at risk, but could end up that way.

An all-ranged no-defender party has to rely on co-ordination between PCs and good use of movement manipulation to avoid enemies being able to crush the squishy.

Working to help each other avoid being trapped where melee enemies can block them in corners, using terrain and status effects so that they are able to relocate in response to enemy tactics to keep the enemy moving, shifting bonuses around so that different PCs seem more threatening from round to round will all do wonders for a party like this.

If they can work as a team, they should have very high unanswered damage potential, and a higher ratio of short but brutal fights. If they each try to be the stand out PC and play "grab the spotlight" then you'll have some corpses and a chance to bring in some melee PCs soon enough.

[Griffenstein]

Tactics change in parties without defenders (or melee), and it is a viable party.

Your Controllers need to invest significant resources into initiative boosts. Open each fight (first turn) with daily powers designed to Slow, Immobilize, Prone all the melee enemies.

The following characters should be able to get this going:
Wizard
Seeker
Ranger (Hobbling Strike + World Serpents grasp feats)
Bard (to a limited extent)

The party then kites these things around the room while focus firing the ranged enemies. Remind the players that nobody in the party is designed to be durable, so everyone needs to be willing to take some damage.

Frankly just suggest that everyone picks up the "worlds serpent grasp" feat and find ways to cause the triggering conditions.

Staff Expertise and certain bow enchants permit making ranged attacks that don't provoke opportunity attacks.

Awesome suggestions! It really puts my mind at ease. By chance do you have any suggestions on how a party with this set up should handle closed in spaces such as standard sized dungeon encounter rooms and halls? I use modular dungeon tiles I have already crafted for a 3d feel and many of the rooms range from 4x4 tile small rooms to 15x20 big rooms. The big rooms I only have a few made of though, and most dungeons I've seen use rooms that are like 10x10 squares or smaller.

[Griffenstein]

Yeah; the way I read this the party is not inherently at risk, but could end up that way.

An all-ranged no-defender party has to rely on co-ordination between PCs and good use of movement manipulation to avoid enemies being able to crush the squishy.

Working to help each other avoid being trapped where melee enemies can block them in corners, using terrain and status effects so that they are able to relocate in response to enemy tactics to keep the enemy moving, shifting bonuses around so that different PCs seem more threatening from round to round will all do wonders for a party like this.

If they can work as a team, they should have very high unanswered damage potential, and a higher ratio of short but brutal fights. If they each try to be the stand out PC and play "grab the spotlight" then you'll have some corpses and a chance to bring in some melee PCs soon enough.


Great point! At this stage I haven't put them in a closed in encounter, the first game was in a large field outside a ruined city. I'll see how they react and adjust to the challenge and I bet they'll suprise me with what tactics they come up with.

[Sol]

I giggled at all of the subtle seeker-bashing, but I do want to point out that, as of the relatively recent (a year ish old?) dragon article written by Cazzeo, there are now top-notch power options for the seeker, which can now be built to be fully functional in a non-ironic way.

There's almost no choices involved, since there's exactly three good encounter powers and exactly three good dailies, but it's possible, different, and pretty cool.

[ghost_warlock]

I wish my old (and possibly future) Spelljammer group was like this. :smalltongue: Instead, we're sailing the Astral Sea and trying to fight space monsters from the deck of our ship with a brawler fighter, a hammer cleric, an ubercharger slayer, a pacifist warlord|cleric, and me as a thunder 'lock (lots of close blasts). It's really hard to keep pirates at bay when you can't actually deal with them until they've already boarded your ship!

[Yakk]

Encounters should span multiple rooms. The traditional D&D dungeon, with the 20x20 room and the isolated encounter, never made much sense.

A 4e encounter can easily encompass an entire dungeon level, with both sides trying to out-flank and hide from each other.

[Alejandro]

Don't design your dungeons around the fact that they are ranged characters. There will be close quarters, and they will learn to deal with it. Also, use some lurker type monsters :)

[KenkakuKnight]

I am suddenly reminded of The Raid: Redemption, an Indonesian martial arts/action film about a squad of policemen raiding a hotel refuge for criminals. I would take inspiration from that, and various first person shooter games. Some of the things I would implement, especially in a close-quarters setting:

1) Multiple levels, some areas with clear line of sight and line of effect. This will allow for multiple access routes (imagine enemies going through one floor unhindered and going down a flight of stairs to pincer the party, or fighting in a courtyard with enemies perched on several balconies that provide full cover).

2) Lots of terrain items, such tables, couches, anything to provide full/partial cover. Cover-based shooters provide a variety of elements to interact with.

3) SURPRISE! Nothing sucks like finding a perfect place to hunker down and snipe the enemy than to have someone hiding in a secret access route, or a zombie BUSTING THROUGH THE WALL TO GET HIS NOMS!

Anyways, combat should be dynamic and thrilling, so if they're safely sniping away, and combat becomes nothing more than a countdown to see if an enemy's HP can hold out until they reach the group, then something needs to change.

Anyways, I hope you good luck with your all-ranged party!

PS. If X-com: Enemy Unknown can make a turn-based, grid-based game centered around all-ranged combat in open and enclosed environments, you can too!