PF - Spontaneous Caster Tier?

[Talya]

So, I've been thinking about Spontaneous Casters in PF...they seem much, much stronger than in 3.5. To compare:

(1) Built in bonus spells known at every spell level with Bloodlines or Mysteries as class features.
(2) Alternate ways to add additional spells known can substantially increase your total spells known. (Improved Eldritch Heritage - New Arcana. Favored Class bonuses... a spontaneous pathfinder caster can easily end up adding 20 more spells known from spell levels 1-8.) If you really need more spells, Expanded Arcana is not a terrible feat, either. Much better than 3.5's "Extra Spell."
(3) Actual class features that can be used repeatedly that fill the roles certain spells would handle (bloodline powers, mysteries)
(4) The "Mnemonic Vestements" - Hey, now a sorcerer/oracle can keep a portfolio of scrolls to pull out in an emergency ... and once a day, not use up the scroll, which is actually far more flexible than a wizard leaving an open spell slot in the same situation (since they don't have to decide in advance what level spell slot.)

I'm not sure it's enough to move them into similar territory as the Tier 1s, but it looks close. Thoughts?

[Snowbluff]

The actual difference between T1 and T2 is quite small. Spontaneous casters are T2, and are only there unless they have access to a complete spell list.

Which, if they are a Half Elf, they probably do.

[Mystral]

All classes in Pathfinder got a decent buff. This changes nothing to their tier placement.

[Psyren]

Before I address your broader point, I have to wonder why Mnemonic Vestment is so constantly held up as the sorcerer-breaker. As you correctly noted, it only does its thing once per day - letting you whip out a utility spell on demand without expending time or money is great, but it's hardly going to make any spontaneous caster play significantly differently. Really, all it does is save you a few hundred to a few thousand gp over the course of the campaign from not having to replace your scrolls - money that in the grand scheme is likely to be a pittance anyway.

I digress.

It's a bit funny that you didn't mention the one thing that could actually get a T2 class to T1 status in PF - namely, Paragon Surge - but aside from that, the things you mentioned don't do enough on their own to really overcome that spells-known limitation spontaneous casters have to deal with. If Expanded Arcana were enough to do it, Psions would have been T1 long ago. The Human Sorcerer's FC bonus comes close, but there are still far more sorcerer spells out there than he can hope to learn even with those feats. Wizards meanwhile are limited only by gp, time and storage. Bloodlines, Mysteries et al. aren't enough either.

The way I think of it is this:

1) Is my spell list strong/versatile enough to do everything (even that?)
2) Can I learn everything on that list through the course of normal play?

If the answer to both of those is yes, you're T1. If (1) is yes but (2) is no, you're T2. Otherwise, you're somewhere lower than that.

[Dr. Yes]

Pages of Spell Knowledge, combined with the human favored class bonus, allow a sorcerer access to pretty much every spell he could possibly want to cast. It's not a trivial gp investment, but following WBL guidelines it still won't gimp you, especially if you pick up craft feats. I'd go with T1.

EDIT: Ooh, good call Psyren. Paragon Surge with Expanded Arcana. That's...a good chunk of Wish as a 3rd level spell with no material cost. Wow.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The hallmark of Tier 1 classes is being able to break the game and being able to change how you do it on day to day basis. To the best of my knowledge there is no way for a sorcerer to change their spell selection from day to day.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pages of Spell Knowledge, combined with the human favored class bonus, allow a sorcerer access to pretty much every spell he could possibly want to cast. It's not a trivial gp investment, but following WBL guidelines it still won't gimp you, especially if you pick up craft feats. I'd go with T1.
Those are pretty dang expensive if you want to pick up more than a few, though.

Even giving the sorcerer more spells known isn't enough to take it to T1. The biggest difference between a T2 caster and a T1 is that, while they both have game-breaking tricks, the T1 caster can use different tricks every day. A psion using Psychic Reformation is T1; a Sorcerer getting bonus spells isn't.

[AmberVael]

I think it's theoretically possible for a spontaneous type caster to reach Tier 1 levels by spells known alone, the difficulty is deciding exactly how many spells it takes to push them there. Spontaneous casting from a major list would definitely be enough, but you should be able to get away with less than that.

Stuff like the Human Favored bonus is definitely a strong stride towards the appropriate number, but I don't think even an extra 20 is quite enough. I think you'd want to be closer to 100 spells known than to 50.

[Talya]

I think it's theoretically possible for a spontaneous type caster to reach Tier 1 levels by spells known alone, the difficulty is deciding exactly how many spells it takes to push them there. Spontaneous casting from a major list would definitely be enough, but you should be able to get away with less than that.

Stuff like the Human Favored bonus is definitely a strong stride towards the appropriate number, but I don't think even an extra 20 is quite enough. I think you'd want to be closer to 100 spells known than to 50.

Yeah. There are times, however, when making a spontaneous caster, that there are no spells I actually want at a given spell level, yet I have to select one. (I occasionally would prefer to select spells from a lower level, if I had that option.) In 3.5, fifth level sorcerer spells were like that for me. Admittedly, the DM gave me a bonus spell of every level to my spells known, but even if I were a wizard, I wouldn't have been going out and loading up on spells from that spell level. I just didn't have much use for most of them.

With the PF Oracle I'm making right now, there's frankly very little at 6th level that I want.


The hallmark of Tier 1 classes is being able to break the game and being able to change how you do it on day to day basis. To the best of my knowledge there is no way for a sorcerer to change their spell selection from day to day.


Well, yes. But think about it: first of all, the more spells on your spells known list, the less you need to change your spell selection from day to day. A sorcerer who knew their entire class list is far superior than a wizard who has their entire class list in a book. But neither of them is going to get that far. Pathfinder provides options for the sorcerer and oracle to get closer to this, but they're still a long way off. However, Mnemonic Vestment lets them act like a wizard, once a day. Paragon surge lets them act like a sorcerer who knows their entire spell list... with limitations on action economy and such.