[3.5] Sneaky little gnome (build critique please?)

[Norin]

Hello all!

I have put together a build stub for a campaign we are playing. The idea was a sneak attacking stealthy skillmonkey with some more fun features than your run-of-the-mill straight up rogue build.

Starting at level 9, 36k wbl.

Race: Whisper Gnome
Stats at lvl 9:
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 15
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 11


Rogue 1 (Two-Weapon fighting 1st)
Rogue 2
Rogue 3 (Midnight dodge 3rd)
Swashbuckler 1 (Weapon finesse from class)
Rogue 4
Umbral Disciple 1 (Craven 6th)
Umbral Disciple 2
Umbral Disciple 3
Swordsage 1 (Staggering strike 9th)
Swordsage 2


Sneak attack at lvl 9: 3d6 (Rog/Umbral) + 2d6 (assassin's stance) + 9 (craven) + staggering strike.

Feats:
- TWF to get that extra attack.
- Midnight dodge to get into Umbral Disciple to get SA progression and Embrace of Shadows.
- Weapon finesse from Swash dip because Dex and an extra bab to not lag behind. Also, d10 HD.
- Craven. Well, it's nice. Right?
- Staggering Strike because i like how it works and it's a nice debuff that has no real drawback except feat tax.

Progression:
Went with rogue for the skillpoints, evasion and SA. Swashbuckler for the above reasons. Umbral disciple is a great way to add miss chance and a HiPS effect. Swordsage enters at a level where i can get assassin's stance instantly. Of course the focus will be on Shadow Hand with a few other stances\maneuvers for utility.

Synergy is decent, but it's quite "mad". Needing Dex but making good use of it, need con for HP\saves, need int for skills, need wis for swordsage and over 10 cha to get my racial spell-likes going.

What should I go for after lvl 10? More swordsage or back to rogue for even more skillmonkey and SA?

Skills:
-Keeping hide and move silently maxed. High UMD, disable device, sleight of hand, bluff, tumble, open lock, sense motive, balance.

Planned Feats:
- Adaptive style?
- Darkstalker (must-have eventualy)
- Shadow Blade for more dex synergy?
- ??

Ideas or things i should change?
Did i leave out anything essential?

Thanks in advance.

[GilesTheCleric]

Looks good. If you haven't already checked out the rogue handbook, then it might give you a few other options.

The only changes I would recommend: drop the 4th level of rogue and pick up something else, maybe clr1. Also, it is most efficient to take one level of swordsage at level 11, but if you're not sure about going beyond 10, then it doesn't matter. For things past 10, you'll want to work on increasing your versatility and resilience.

HiPs is good to have, and more levels of swashbuckler could be good. If you want to stay mundane, then something like thief-acrobat could be useful. skullclan hunter gives a bunch of good immunities, and spymaster, master of masks, and totemist are all versatile.

[Norin]

Looks good. If you haven't already checked out the rogue handbook, then it might give you a few other options.

The only changes I would recommend: drop the 4th level of rogue and pick up something else, maybe clr1. Also, it is most efficient to take one level of swordsage at level 11, but if you're not sure about going beyond 10, then it doesn't matter. For things past 10, you'll want to work on increasing your versatility and resilience.

HiPs is good to have, and more levels of swashbuckler could be good. If you want to stay mundane, then something like thief-acrobat could be useful. skullclan hunter gives a bunch of good immunities, and spymaster, master of masks, and totemist are all versatile.

Sound advice.

I've read alot of handbooks, the Rogue one(s) too.

Earlier i forgot to mention the rogue class has the Penetrating strike ACF so i can hurt some constructs and undeads while flanking.

I like the (cloistered) cleric dip. But for now i wanted to keep away from casting classes completely. (Maybe if my character gets some sort of religious epiphany of sorts i would be more tempted.)

My initial idea was more rogue and swordsage after 10 in some combination really. Not sure if that's the best choise though.

Ill consider your prc suggestions, thanks.

[Gwendol]

If you are dipping swashbuckler, why not go for the daring outlaw? You get more SA dice.

[Norin]

If you are dipping swashbuckler, why not go for the daring outlaw? You get more SA dice.

I'd need to "waste" another level on swash then to get the feat. And if i do that, i might as well go for 3 levels to get insightful strike at 3rd. But then my build has taken a direction i never wanted.

Good feat and a a good idea, but not for my build i think.

[SciChronic]

i would turn wisdom and strength into as much of a dump stat as possible. you really dont need much wisdom if you stick to non offensive maneuvers, which seems to be what you're aiming for, so stay away from strikes, and pick up good untyped or boost maneuvers for utility purposes.

you could drop sleight of hand and sense motive in favor of spot and listen, with hide and move silently so high do to ranks + whisper gnome, you might as well fulfill a scouting roll for the party. Sense Motive can be taken up by the Face, and if you are that worried about getting sneak attack opportunities you can always take island of blades.

[Re'ozul]

I'll suggest what I always suggest.

Sometime later when you have 13,000gp lying around, get Shackles of Silence (MIC). Continuous Silemce in your 5ft square is always good (especially with Darkstalker).

[Norin]

i would turn wisdom and strength into as much of a dump stat as possible. you really dont need much wisdom if you stick to non offensive maneuvers, which seems to be what you're aiming for, so stay away from strikes, and pick up good untyped or boost maneuvers for utility purposes.

I'm going to grab some offense strikes and such just to flavour up the fighting a bit. Shadow Garrote appeals to me, among others. I also want wisdom for that nice AC boost at swordsage 2.



you could drop sleight of hand and sense motive in favor of spot and listen, with hide and move silently so high do to ranks + whisper gnome, you might as well fulfill a scouting roll for the party. Sense Motive can be taken up by the Face, and if you are that worried about getting sneak attack opportunities you can always take island of blades.

Sleight of Hand is there because of the fun factor really, not much else.
And yes, i will be the scout in my party and will try to be a bit of a "face" as well. The party needs it and i'm sort of the only option there.

We have no cha\skill focused chars in the party (transmuter\warweaver, dwarf melee cleric\hammer of moradin, warshaper\momf melee druid and another melee cleric) as of now. :smalltongue: Yeah, alot of melee going on.