Why use Extra Spell on a Wizard/Cleric?

[Andezzar]

Why would a Wizard or Cleric take the Extra Spell feat? Can he gain access to any spell that is not on the Wizard or Cleric spell list?

[Malroth]

Clerics/druids no reason ever

Wizards Your DM is playing a no items game where no other wizards ever share spells ever

[Zanos]

1. Your DM is very restrictive about scrolls/scouring other spellbooks and there's a spell you really really want. (For Wizards)
2. The way the feat reads has no list restriction, arguably allowing you to pull a spell off of any list.

The feat is useless for clerics if it doesn't allow non-list spells, for obvious reasons.

[GilesTheCleric]

Extra slot is generally not that useful, although I like to grab it for my 15th and 18th feat slots. It only allows you to cast spells on your list. Extra spell will let you learn any spell.

[Zanos]

Extra slot is generally not that useful, although I like to grab it for my 15th and 18th feat slots. It only allows you to cast spells on your list. Extra spell is an epic feat, and yes, it will let you learn any spell.



You learn an additional spell.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd

:smallconfused:

[Equinox]

Even if it may not be RAW, I usually let people get a spell outside their class' list with Extra Spell. I mean, on one hand, it's a feat, you know, one of those things that you only get 7 or 8 of in the entire lifetime of your character, so it's supposed to have some cool effect, right? And on the other hand, it's just one spell that you learn, how much harm can it do?

[Malroth]

Tier 4 Warmage shapechanges into a Zodar, wishes for a self repeating wish trap designed to make scrolls of ice assassin.

[GilesTheCleric]

:smallconfused:

Yes, I was thinking of improved spell capacity for some reason. Guess I didn't edit my post quickly enough. XD

[Andezzar]

The feat is useless for clerics if it doesn't allow non-list spells, for obvious reasons.Doesn't it do that?


For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

The thing is a wizard lacks access to any spell not in one of his spellbooks or selected for spell mastery, but he can research any spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (at least).

The quote (part of the benefit section of the feat) says that it is used by wizards and similar casters. Which spells can even satisfy both conditions (not researchable and not accessible by the wizard)?

@ Malroth: Wrong thread or are you lamenting that with extra spell not only wizards can do Zodar shenanigans?

[Zanos]

Doesn't it do that?



The thing is a wizard lacks access to any spell not in one of his spellbooks or selected for spell mastery, but he can research any spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (at least).

The quote (part of the benefit section of the feat) says that it is used by wizards and similar casters. Which spells can even satisfy both conditions (not researchable and not accessible by the wizard)?
Yes, RAW does not restrict you to a list. Some DM's my take ire with that interpretation, however.

[Talderas]

The quote (part of the benefit section of the feat) says that it is used by wizards and similar casters. Which spells can even satisfy both conditions (not researchable and not accessible by the wizard)?

Wu Jen. One of the base classes introduced in Complete Arcane, the same book which has Extra Spell.

[Andezzar]

Wu Jen. One of the base classes introduced in Complete Arcane, the same book which has Extra Spell.How does a Wu Jen behave differently to a wizard? Both have a spell list and only some spells from that list are in their spell books, both can research any spell on their spell list.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, RAW does not restrict you to a list. Some DM's my take ire with that interpretation, however.
It merely doesn't say that explicitly. Let's work through the RAW.
Benefit: You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast. To apply Extra Spell, you must perform the highlighted arithmetic, which means you have to know the level of any spell you're interested in obtaining as an extra. Here's an example spell: Control Water.
Level: Clr 4, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 6, Water 4 What level spell is Control Water? This illustrates that spell level is always a function of the casting class, and you don't know what level it is for any particular class unless the rules specify an answer. So, what's the highest level Cleric spell a Wizard can cast? The answer, in D&D form, is "—" (the null answer). To be able to use Extra Spell, you first need a number, and then you can subtract 1. The only spells for which you can supply a number are those already on your class spell list.

[Malroth]

I was responding to the "allow extra spell to learn any spell whats the worst that could happen" comment

[Andezzar]

So, Curmudeon, the part I quoted earlier is simply nonsense, right? Unless I'm mistaken there are no spells on the Sorc/Wiz spell list that any wizard both lacks access to and is unable to research.

[Curmudgeon]

So, Curmudeon, the part I quoted earlier is simply nonsense, right? Unless I'm mistaken there are no spells on the Sorc/Wiz spell list that any wizard both lacks access to and is unable to research.
Why would that be nonsense? Any spell can be researched, but there are rules:
The research to do this requires access to a well-stocked library, typically in a large city or metropolis. Research requires an expenditure of 1,000 gp per week and takes one week per level of the spell. This money goes into fees, consultants, material component experimentation, and other miscellaneous expenditures. At the end of that time, the character makes a Spellcraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that roll succeeds, the character learns the new spell if her research produced a viable spell. If the roll fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying. If the Wizard can't find a spell on a scroll, and does not have the appropriate resources (as listed above), then Extra Spell provides an answer.

Did you just assume that every campaign will have access to a well-stocked library in a large city, and every Wizard will have all the gold they want? You are mistaken.

[Andezzar]

I forgot that a library was required. But still, only if no library existed in the gameworld would the wizard be unable to research. If even one library exists he could acquire the funds and go there and thus would not be unable to research. The rule does not say "spells he would not be able to research right now".
The general statement of "a specific spell that the character [...] would be unable to research" means that there can be no conditions under which the character could be able to research the spell.

While we're at it, can a DM make any research impossible by declaring that the gameworld uses a currency not based on gold?

[nedz]

A specialist who wants to learn a spell from a banned school ?
Generally not allowed, but specific trumps general.

[Andezzar]

The rule does not talk about specialist wizards but about wizards in general.

[Curmudgeon]

I forgot that a library was required. But still, only if no library existed in the gameworld would the wizard be unable to research. If even one library exists he could acquire the funds and go there and thus would not be unable to research.
Handwaving, much? You're still ignoring the cost requirements. If you don't have the funds for the research, you're unable to do the research. A Wizard lacking the needed funds could benefit from Extra Spell. Also, just because a library exists doesn't mean it's available. A Wizard unable to use a library because it's in an enemy kingdom could benefit from Extra Spell.

[Equinox]

Tier 4 Warmage shapechanges into a Zodar, wishes for a self repeating wish trap designed to make scrolls of ice assassin.
Given as the people I game with are sane*, there's no chance of that actually happening in our games.


* up to a level that a person spending an evening pretending to be an elf can be sane, of course

[Andezzar]

You are using the indicative mood. The rule does not. If the rule called for "a specific spell that the character lacks access to and is unable to research", I would agree with you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tier 4 Warmage shapechanges into a Zodar, wishes for a self repeating wish trap designed to make scrolls of ice assassin.
Meh, that's theoretical optimization on the level of "early access to Rainbow Servant to spontaneously cast the entire cleric list at level 11." This is 3.5; you can break absolutely anything if you try hard enough.

As for Extra Spell... while RAW never says that you can't learn cross-list spells, I think the RAI is pretty clearly for spontaneous casters to learn more spells. Yes, wizards can benefit from the feat... but in most games, it's a terribly situational benefit, like a good half the published feats.

[Curmudgeon]

You are using the indicative mood. The rule does not. If the rule called for "a specific spell that the character lacks access to and is unable to research", I would agree with you.

For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.
There are other ways that would make it impossible for a Wizard to do spell research. One possibility would be a Wizard with Eidetic Spellcaster (so no spellbook) who gives up most options to learn spells by taking Vow of Poverty. That Wizard would get their 2 free spells per level, but would normally be unable to acquire more because VoP prevents them from spending the required funds (100 gp/page for special incense). However, Extra Spell would allow them to learn another spell.

One obvious possibility would be a Wizard with no ranks in Spellcraft. They would neither be able to learn non-free spells normally, nor do spell research; both of these require Spellcraft checks with DCs above 10.

Please note that this discussion is all based on an advisory message with the qualifier "generally". If there's even one case (no matter how unlikely) where a Wizard would be prevented from learning a spell on their list, they've got a use for Extra Spell.

[Runestar]

Why would a Wizard or Cleric take the Extra Spell feat? Can he gain access to any spell that is not on the Wizard or Cleric spell list?

None, really. I believe the spell was more intended for sorcerors and other classes with limiting ability to learn new spells.

Some feats simply aren't very useful. It's like asking why your fighter might want to take metamagic feats when they can't cast spells.