Making Roy Work

[Thanatosia]

What Prestigue Classes & Feats are there to make a melee focused character with a High Int Score gain solid benefits from the Int Score?

So far I've got Knowledge Devotion for lots of knowledge skills, Bladesinger & Duelist for converting the int bonus into AC.... any other good ways to convert a high int into combat advantages?

[ArcturusV]

Knowledge: Engineering? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I think Rich Burlew did a rules thing on the site here about using Knowledge checks in combat that would make sense to include on a Roy Greenhilt build.

[eggynack]

Warblade? Yeah, warblade. All kindsa little intelligence bonuses to X, and lotsa tactical fighting abilities. Were I to build Roy, he would be a warblade.

[erikun]

Warablade and Factotum are two classes that get some good benefit from high INT. I think that kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise, though...

[Vedhin]

What about Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures? That gets Int to AC if my memory serves me properly. You also get Charisma to Initative and various Iaijutsu Focus goodies.

[Mad Wizard]

Knowledge Devotion would be helpful - bonuses to hit and damage based on your knowledge check result.

[Snowbluff]

What about Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures? That gets Int to AC if my memory serves me properly. You also get Charisma to Initative and various Iaijutsu Focus goodies.
Not while using heavy armor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Warblade honestly doesn't get that much out of his Intelligence. I mean, it helps, but it's not that fantastic. Maneuvers, though, are a fantastic mechanical basis for clever warrior fluff. ("As he attacks, I try to maneuver him into that muddy patch I spotted earlier. Rolling for Wall of Blades...")

Just one level of Factotum, on the other hand, not only lets you get direct combat benefits from your Intelligence, the fluff of the ability works perfectly for a smart fighter. Another two levels lets you apply Int to more or less everything that matters. A three-level dip is pretty reasonable for a fighter type. It also gives you the skills to make good use of Knowledge Focus.

A Monk dip with Kung Fu Genius can get you a few nice things, including Int to AC while unarmored without taking garbage feats for Duelist.

If you can get your DM to let the same (or some equivalent) feat work with Swordsage abilities, then you are GOLDEN. Setting Sun judo plus Diamond Mind mind-over-matter abilities both seem extremely fitting for a clever warrior.

So, maybe something like Factotum 3/Swordsage 2/Warblade 3/Master of Nine 5/Legacy Champion 7 (progressing Master of Nine). [Dip Fighter as needed for bonus feats]. Focus on Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, and Iron Heart maneuvers.

Without Tome of Battle, Monk 1 (with Kung-Fu Genius)/Factotum 19-- heck, just straight Factotum 20-- are both great choices. (You could maybe swap out Arcane Dilettante for a non-existent "Martial Dilettante" ACF to prepare fighter bonus feats each day. Maybe trade up for a full BAB as well.)

[Prime32]

Warblade honestly doesn't get that much out of his Intelligence. I mean, it helps, but it's not that fantastic. Maneuvers, though, are a fantastic mechanical basis for clever warrior fluff. ("As he attacks, I try to maneuver him into that muddy patch I spotted earlier. Rolling for Wall of Blades...")

Just one level of Factotum, on the other hand, not only lets you get direct combat benefits from your Intelligence, the fluff of the ability works perfectly for a smart fighter. Another two levels lets you apply Int to more or less everything that matters. A three-level dip is pretty reasonable for a fighter type. It also gives you the skills to make good use of Knowledge Focus.And gestalt warblade//factotum is fantastic.

[Chronos]

Warblade? Yeah, warblade. All kindsa little intelligence bonuses to X, and lotsa tactical fighting abilities. Were I to build Roy, he would be a warblade.Now, eggynack, you know Eugene would never have paid for a PhD program!

[Flickerdart]

Roy doesn't just have a high Intelligence, all of his mental ability scores are pretty damn good (though not as high as that of a SAD character). The latest Class and Level Geekery thread pegs his Int as 14-17, his Wisdom as 14+, and his Charisma as 12+. None of these stats really merit devoting class levels to leverage them. Knowledge Devotion would be a good choice, though, and would explain CC ranks in Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering (the core rules don't list any monsters under that skill, but that doesn't mean there are none in Rich's world).

[Thanatosia]

Roy doesn't just have a high Intelligence, all of his mental ability scores are pretty damn good
I'm not literally trying to make an optimized translation of Roy, just used his name as a shorthand for 'Fighter type with high int score' - and trying to figure out what gimicks and abilities exist to help support that.

[eggynack]

Now, eggynack, you know Eugene would never have paid for a PhD program!
I know, though I oddly don't remember the exact place that majig is. Still, it honestly adds to the point, instead of detracting from it, because it indicates that Roy as a Warblade would be a logical thing. If Roy is shorthand for "fighter with a high int score", that's a warblade in a nut shell. Factotums kinda work too, but those guys are more like rogues with a high int score or something. Really, they're more like factotums that are like factotums, but fighter isn't the first thing I think about when I think about factotums.

[Chronos]

There seem to be three different things that people see, when they look at factotums. I'm in the camp, that I see the best skill-user in the game, who can incidentally dabble in a bunch of other things too. Some people look at them and see a wizard with fewer spells, but who can sort of make up for it by casting five of them in the first round of combat. And then there are some people who seem them as a specialist in tripping, bull-rushing, and the like. Those are all Strength checks, and so Brains Over Brawn works on them.

(and the bit about the PhD program was in the Attack from the Fourth Dimension, in Snips)

[eggynack]

There seem to be three different things that people see, when they look at factotums. I'm in the camp, that I see the best skill-user in the game, who can incidentally dabble in a bunch of other things too. Some people look at them and see a wizard with fewer spells, but who can sort of make up for it by casting five of them in the first round of combat. And then there are some people who seem them as a specialist in tripping, bull-rushing, and the like. Those are all Strength checks, and so Brains Over Brawn works on them.
I generally see them as a guy that can just do a whole bunch of stuff reasonably well. That list absolutely involves skill monkeying and casting, and it can potentially involve fighting in various manners. Factotums may be able to do the whole fighter maneuver thing competently, but they just don't seem to fill the archetype to me. At the very least, they're significantly less fightery than warblades are.




(and the bit about the PhD program was in the Attack from the Fourth Dimension, in Snips)
Right. I knew I had read that bit recently.

[TheIronGolem]

Feels a bit like cheating to bring up Pathfinder in an OOTS-related discussion, but the Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) has a fairly good Roy-ish feel to it (lack of medium/heavy armor proficiencies notwithstanding). Scholastic means that you can save those meager fighter skill points for traditional utility skills without sacrificing concept, and Know Thy Enemy is a good emulation of how Roy keeps up with physically superior opponents like Thog.

[Beelzebub1111]

I think that the point of Roy is that he's a single-class fighter with focus and specialization in a greatsword. So he'd have to take feats that only a fighter that doesn't branch out or level dip could take.

[Rubik]

I think that the point of Roy is that he's a single-class fighter with focus and specialization in a greatsword. So he'd have to take feats that only a fighter that doesn't branch out or level dip could take.What feats are those? And more importantly, how do those make him more useful than anything but an NPC warrior or a monk? If Roy actually had a decent Int, he would never have gone fighter in the first place. Even Thog was smart enough to go barbarian, and I'd be amazed if he breached Int 5.

[Thanatosia]

I think that the point of Roy is that he's a single-class fighter with focus and specialization in a greatsword. So he'd have to take feats that only a fighter that doesn't branch out or level dip could take.
Already said this to one poster, but to re-emphasize, I'm not trying to make a literal conversion of Roy.... just using his name as a way of invoking a melee-based character who has a high int score. I'm begining to suspect using his name was a mistake as several responses seem to be focusing on the specific character too much.

[Hiro Protagonest]

There was homebrew for this. Hold on, gotta find the link in the link in my sig...

Edit: Here we go: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10640962&postcount=6)

Sublime Genius
Prereqs: Int 13+, Swordsage Class
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of Wisdom to determine your AC Bonus, Discipline Focus, and any Wisdom-based save DCs of maneuvers you use. You may choose to remove Sense Motive from your skill list and replace it with any Knowledge of your choice. You may do this with other Knowledges you have as well.

Iron Tactician
Prereqs: Int 17+, Combat Expertise, Warblade Class
Benefit: You may add your Intelligence modifier to melee attack and damage rolls instead of your Strength, and/or to determine the save DCs of maneuvers you use.

Calculating Combatant
Prereqs: Int 13+
Benefit: You may add your Intelligence modifier to AC instead of your Dexterity modifier.

Genius Maneuvers
Prereqs: Calculating Combatant, Int 15+, BAB +4
Benefit: You may add both your Intelligence modifier and your Dexterity modifier to AC. Further, you may add your Intelligence modifier to attack and damage rolls instead of Strength or Dexterity.

Loreblade Master
Prereqs: Genius Maneuvers, Knowledge Devotion, Int 17+, BAB +9
Benefit: When you make your Knowledge checks to gain the benefit of your Knowledge Devotion feat you are also considered making checks to identify special powers and vulnerabilities of your foes. Further you consider all Knowledge skills to be class skills and gain a competence bonus to such skill checks equal to 1/2 your class levels. Finally you gain insight bonuses against foes you identify of +1 to AC and saving throws, and +2 to damage rolls for every bit of useful information given to you by the DM according to your Knowledge check.

Martial Mastermind [Tactical]
Prereqs: Loreblade Master, Int 19+, BAB +13
Benefit: You may add both your Intelligence modifier and your Strength modifier to damage rolls. Further, allies within 30ft of you gain 1/2 your bonuses from your Knowledge Devotion and Loreblade Master feats. Finally, you gain the following tactical options:

Exploit Weakness - As an immediate action, when you or an ally within 30ft deals damage to any foe you have bonuses from Knowledge Devotion against that has vulnerability to that type of damage or weapon you may increase the damage they deal by twice your character level.

Shatter Defenses - As a swift action, you can grant yourself or an ally within 30ft the ability to ignore the Damage Reduction or Spell Resistance of any foe you have bonuses from Knowledge Devotion against for 1 round.

Master Plan - Once per encounter, as a standard action you can grant all allies within 30ft an immediate move action (which does not cost them any actions at all) or you can take two standard actions.
There's a bunch of other cool feats in there too for every other non-strength ability.

[SoraWolf7]

Funny, I kinda wondered what all we could do with this kinda thing with the party. I wasn't sure what to do with Roy, but he can at least get Combat Expertise.

[erikun]

What feats are those? And more importantly, how do those make him more useful than anything but an NPC warrior or a monk? If Roy actually had a decent Int, he would never have gone fighter in the first place. Even Thog was smart enough to go barbarian, and I'd be amazed if he breached Int 5.
I think that the point was that Roy took fighter levels despite his decent Intelligence. Probably pure fighter, unless he took something like Exotic Weapon Master or something for a Legacy Weapon based off his father's sword.

Thog, by contrast, is played by more of a direct optimizer. Barbarian, probably lion totem, possibly only Fighter 2 if any, likely some initiator class, Frenzied Berserker... He's much more in line with what you'd expect of someone who just wants the best combatant and will just roleplay what results.


I get the impression that Roy likely sprinkled his skills around to important skills. I can definitely see him with Able Learner, and getting the 5 ranks in balance, good spot and tumble, and probably a few skill tricks to make the best use of his positive INT bonus. I wouldn't be surprised to see Combat Expertise + Improved Trip on him, as that definitely seems useful and practical for someone who already has good INT anyways. (or perhaps the other way around!)

[Hytheter]

Combat Expertise is a logical application of a Fighter's intellegence.


If Roy actually had a decent Int, he would never have gone fighter in the first place.
Well that's a pretty much terrible way of looking at things. Not everything's about optimizing a build you know.
He's a fighter because he wanted to follow the legacy of his family. He's following his dreams, not a path to the largest numbers.

[Metahuman1]

Combat Expertise is a logical application of a Fighter's intellegence.


Well that's a pretty much terrible way of looking at things. Not everything's about optimizing a build you know.
He's a fighter because he wanted to follow the legacy of his family. He's following his dreams, not a path to the largest numbers.

The thing he over looks though is that when his grandfather was doing it it was a different time.

It would be tantamount to me aspiring to grow up and be a cowboy sheriff who goes around with a .45 Long Colt, a lasso and rides a horse while calling the other guy out to a one on one shoot out in the street at high noon. I could still be a cop, still hold the title of sheriff, but the tools and tactics have changed completely.


Fighter class with a greatsword worked in 1st and 2nd E more or less. 3E and beyond, when Roy was online, not so much.

Factotum 3/ Warblade X using Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers with a sprinkling of other stuff from other schools however? That works and you can still make yourself look strictly mundane warrior relying upon his weapon, his strength and skill of arm and his tactical and strategic brilliance and his swift and cunning wit.

[erikun]

It would be tantamount to me aspiring to grow up and be a cowboy sheriff who goes around with a .45 Long Colt, a lasso and rides a horse while calling the other guy out to a one on one shoot out in the street at high noon. I could still be a cop, still hold the title of sheriff, but the tools and tactics have changed completely.
That's funny, because the fastest shooter in the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9uGktUCrY) uses a Colt .45 for his shots. :smalltongue: Somehow, I doubt he would've become that good if he'd practiced the "optimal" standard issue handgun rather than a Colt.

[Perseus]

That's funny, because the fastest shooter in the world (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS9uGktUCrY) uses a Colt .45 for his shots. :smalltongue: Somehow, I doubt he would've become that good if he'd practiced the "optimal" standard issue handgun rather than a Colt.

I think you completely missed the point.

Honestly there are a few explanations for a real life Roy.

1: He was given a high array or rolled very high. Perhaps as a child he got into his father's tomes of +5 mental stats? Yay back story.

2: Roy has been cheating the game the entire time. Instead of roleplaying a 8 int, he roleplays it as a 14 or whatever. Or perhaps he just forgot how cross class skills really works and has able learner without taking the feat (or he has open mind a few times)

3: Roy is the type of player that has a great imagination and does crazy stuff and has a DM that is like "holy crap that's cool! I'll allow it!".

Roy's player: I use knowledge architecture and allow the enemy to slam me into the weakest points in the columns so that it will fall down killing him.

DM: thinks: hot damn that's badassery, ill fudge the rules since that is so cool.

[GameSpawn]

If you're interested in an actual fighter (or just some feats generally), Combat Expertise is the obvious choice. This leads you to Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, as well as Defensive Strike and Defensive Throw, if you take some other feats. Whirlwind Attack also requires combat expertise, though it doesn't necessarily fit as well with the rest of these feats. Ultimately, you get a fairly decent set of defensive capabilities.

Also, don't forget that int grants skill points that could be quite useful in a fight: balance and jump to help you charge, tumble to avoid AoO and intimidate are all potentially useful (and they're far from the only ones).

[Prime32]

1: He was given a high array or rolled very high. Perhaps as a child he got into his father's tomes of +5 mental stats? Yay back story.

2: Roy has been cheating the game the entire time. Instead of roleplaying a 8 int, he roleplays it as a 14 or whatever. Or perhaps he just forgot how cross class skills really works and has able learner without taking the feat (or he has open mind a few times)Nah, Roy knows the rules pretty well, and his mental stats actually seem better than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html). His physical stats seem pretty good too, so it's likely that he rolled and got all 18s or close to it.

It's been a plot point a few times that the Order isn't very good at applying their talents, and when they start optimising (Belkar gaining a Wisdom score high enough to cast spells, Elan taking a Dashing Swordsman level, V using spells other than blasting) it's treated as character development.

[Eldan]

Nah, Roy knows the rules pretty well, and his mental stats actually seem better than Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html). His physical stats seem pretty good too, so it's likely that he rolled and got all 18s or close to it.

It's been a plot point a few times that the Order isn't very good at applying their talents, and when they start optimising (Elan taking a Dashing Swordsman level, V using spells other than blasting) it's treated as character development.

Doesn't mean he rolled all 18s. OotS is a rather low-optimization world, overall. The DMG recommends 25 point buy and I've played in groups where a 14 was considered a good stat, a 16 a very good one and an 18 incredibly rare.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Doesn't mean he rolled all 18s. OotS is a rather low-optimization world, overall. The DMG recommends 25 point buy and I've played in groups where a 14 was considered a good stat, a 16 a very good one and an 18 incredibly rare.

That, or it could just be that all his mental stats were good, while Vaarsuvius only had high int.

[Flickerdart]

That, or it could just be that all his mental stats were good, while Vaarsuvius only had high int.
We know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493) this to be the case.

[Curmudgeon]

Able Learner on a single-class character does nothing. What Roy must have is Education to make cross-class skills for a Fighter like Knowledge (architecture and engineering) actually sufficiently trained to be useful. Knowledge Devotion would make a high-INT character more effective in combat. Roy might also have traded Tower Shield Proficiency and Shield Proficiency for more useful feats, since he uses his father's two-hander.

[Rubik]

Able Learner on a single-class character does nothing. What Roy must have is Education to make cross-class skills for a Fighter like Knowledge (architecture and engineering) actually sufficiently trained to be useful. Knowledge Devotion would make a high-INT character more effective in combat. Roy might also have traded Tower Shield Proficiency and Shield Proficiency for more useful feats, since he uses his father's two-hander.Actually, Able Learner makes cross-class skills cost 1 skill point per rank, rather than 2. It works best on cross-class skills (especially with a level of factotum in the mix), but it would still work on anyone with more skill points than class skills they want to use them on (albeit not very well).

[137beth]

Knowledge: Engineering? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I think Rich Burlew did a rules thing on the site here about using Knowledge checks in combat that would make sense to include on a Roy Greenhilt build.

It was a guest writer who did the system for knowledge in combat, and I think it's been removed from the site, but yea, something similar could work.

Actually, there is a decent explanation for why Roy is so effective: there is no grid drawn, so Roy can fudge distances and decide that he just so happened to be right next to whoever he was trying to hit.
Eh, Close Enough (Ex): Whenever you are within 50 feat of an opponent, you can decide that you are actually adjacent to that opponent as a free action. You cannot use Eh, Close Enough when using a battle grid.
This makes all melee characters in the comic substantially better. It also helps archers who depend on sneak attack like Haley (who can just happen to be within 30 feet of their opponent, but just out of melee reach.)

Of course, that doesn't do anything to nerf druids, but there has only ever been one druid with a reoccurring part in the comic (Leeky) and...what do ya know, he was a substantial threat to the entire party by himself.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Able Learner on a single-class character does nothing. What Roy must have is Education to make cross-class skills for a Fighter like Knowledge (architecture and engineering) actually sufficiently trained to be useful. Knowledge Devotion would make a high-INT character more effective in combat. Roy might also have traded Tower Shield Proficiency and Shield Proficiency for more useful feats, since he uses his father's two-hander.

He explicitely stated they were cross-class ranks into K:Architecture & Engineering, so I don't think he took education (though it would be a fairly appropiate choice fluff-wise considering he has a MBA).

While Factotum meshes well with Warblade I can't see Roy taking levels in a non-full BAB class, besided he sucks at skills (see many jokes about his lack of spot/listen). Straight warblade would be perfect for a more Optimized Roy, he probably would have Leap Attack and focus on Iron Heart and Tiger Claw jumping maneuvers.

[Chronos]

Really, Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) and Knowledge (History) ought to be class skills for the fighter to begin with. Ask your DM if he'd allow that.

Dusk Eclipse, Roy Greenhilt himself didn't take the Educated feat, but that's not the point of this thread. This thread is about intelligent fighters in general, not just Roy specifically.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I was responding Curmudgeon's claim that "Roy must have taken education" with that comment and I stand by my claim that intelligent fighters (int >14) are better served with Warblade levels even if the int bonus are somewhat minor (the Int to damage when flanking can become really useful if you have a melee rogue in the party who needs a flanking buddy).

[SoraWolf7]

For me, the definition of an intelligent fighter that I know of is a Swashbuckler, who uses Weapon Finesse and Skill tricks he bought with his nice skill point pool thanks to his high Int score. Sadly, Roy wouldn't really benefit from the Weapon Finesse as he uses a Two-handed weapon that isn't a light weapon. However, I'm certain he might be able to snag a skill trick or two.

He could use Combat Brute in conjunction with Sunder and his charges easily enough...

[Balthanon]

Doesn't mean he rolled all 18s. OotS is a rather low-optimization world, overall. The DMG recommends 25 point buy and I've played in groups where a 14 was considered a good stat, a 16 a very good one and an 18 incredibly rare.

Assuming that comic was actually accurate (and not just the mind flayer liking well-rounded human as a flavor more than mono-focused elf), it probably points to better than 25 point buy at least.