PF - Spiked Chain?

[Talya]

Why did they nerf the spiked chain in pathfinder? it was one of the few exotic weapons that actually provided a reason to take the feat! Now the non-reach, 2d4 x2 exotic weapon with trip and disarm is strictly worse than the 1d10 19-20/x2 martial Heavy Flail that also can trip and disarm.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Because Paizo adamantly believes that Exotic Weapon Proficiency being worth a feat mechanically is badwrongfun.

[Greenish]

Because an effective fighter type is cheese, and exotic weapons should be purely a flavour thing (except for costing a feat).

Also, (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m0n4?A-Red-Mantis-Dilemma)
I think we over-nerfed weapons (especially exotic weapons) as it stands. But when it comes to rules decisions... those aren't mine alone to make.

[Prime32]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama-double-chained

It's still there, pretty much, just under a different name.

[Keneth]

It's just one of those things...

To be fair, having reach on a spiked chain never made that much sense, but then neither does the Lunge feat, so go figure.

Personally, I've simply revised the entire weapon system and now just disregard the abominable D&D implementation.

[Psyren]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama-double-chained

It's still there, pretty much, just under a different name.

Ooh, good find. And you can flurry with it too...

[Mithril Leaf]

It's just one of those things...

To be fair, having reach on a spiked chain never made that much sense, but then neither does the Lunge feat, so go figure.

Personally, I've simply revised the entire weapon system and now just disregard the abominable D&D implementation.

Seerow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722) also did so and put his work up in the Homebrew section. It's what I personally use.

[Keneth]

Seerow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722) also did so and put his work up in the Homebrew section. It's what I personally use.

Looks a lot like mine actually, just less generic and standardized. Mine is somewhere between Legend's system and Seerow's. I might be inclined to plagiarize a thing or two after I have time to peruse the thread. :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama-double-chained

It's still there, pretty much, just under a different name.

"Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack."

I could totally see a RAW nazi DM ruling that you can only make one attack from reach with this weapon per round... :smallannoyed:

[Prime32]

Ooh, good find. And you can flurry with it too...If you want to use flurry of blows with a spiked chain, use a rope dartDr319. 1d4 base damage... in exchange for 15ft reach.

[Psyren]

"Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack."

I could totally see a RAW nazi DM ruling that you can only make one attack from reach with this weapon per round... :smallannoyed:

The "single" there just means it doesn't count as a double-weapon when you're making reach attacks with it. And if your DM rules otherwise, find a new DM.


If you want to use flurry of blows with a spiked chain, use a rope dartDr319. 1d4 base damage... in exchange for 15ft reach.

Ehhh, dragon...

[Hiro Protagonest]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama-double-chained

It's still there, pretty much, just under a different name.

There's also the Meteor Hammer.

[Prime32]

PF meteor hammer can only switch between reach and adjacent at the start of your turn.
(Dragon meteor hammer is a rope dart that deals bludgeoning damage)

[olentu]

As I recall the reasoning was

"The biggest problem was that the spiked chain was the only weapon that granted reach, but also allowed you to attack adjacent. Add that on to all of the other benefits the weapon gave you and it was just too good. Exotic weapons tend to grant some cool abilities, but the spiked chain really went over the top."

and

"1. Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make.

2. As for the other weapons, the past is just that, the past. When these weapons get updated, we will be looking at them quite a bit closer for balance.

I know this is not a popular change, but the weapon was just too good."

[Hiro Protagonest]

The problem is, Paizo thinks the bastard sword is the proper balance point for exotic weapons.

[Talya]

The problem is, Paizo thinks the bastard sword is the proper balance point for exotic weapons.

This is the issue.

If you're spending a feat on something, it should be worth spending the feat on. It should make you as much better as any other feat.

This is not unique to Paizo, most exotic weapons in 3.5 sucked terribly. Only a select few were worth it. The spiked chain was one. The Minotaur Greathammer (1d12, 19-20/x4) was another - barely. (Think about that...the Minotaur Greathammer is BARELY worth a feat. What's that say about all the other crap that's labeled "Exotic"?) That's the bar for what a feat should get you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I don't see why the greathorn hammer is so praised, true it has a nasty crit and an expanded threat range which is rare, but without some serious cheese you are looking at what 20% crit chance?

The best exotic weapons in my opinions are those which give extra abilities, Spinning Sword (one-handed Spiked chain) or Dragonsplits (one-handed, but treated as light for TWF and weapon finesse) are much worth of a feat slot IMO.

[DeltaEmil]

As I recall the reasoning was

"1. Exotic does not mean better. Yes you have to pay a feat to use it in most circumstances, but that is just not exactly how these are designed. Some do offer some nice benefits, but that is by no means the rules. Exotic means rare and unusual first. That means that some of them are not the "best" in-game mechanical decision your character can make."The designer who came up with this reasoning is objectively wrong and should be excluded from ever writing anything for the rest of his or her life until he or she denounces that statement as a feverish delusion written in a moment of inebriation and under the influence of forbidden harmful substances.

[Talya]

I don't see why the greathorn hammer is so praised, true it has a nasty crit and an expanded threat range which is rare, but without some serious cheese you are looking at what 20% crit chance?

The best exotic weapons in my opinions are those which give extra abilities, Spinning Sword (one-handed Spiked chain) or Dragonsplits (one-handed, but treated as light for TWF and weapon finesse) are much worth of a feat slot IMO.

As I said, it's "borderline."

I agree with you in general. However... let's face it, if you optimize for crits, it's about the best weapon you can get. There are better weapons for threat range, but not for a combination of threat and multiplier. The amount of additional damage is probably worth a feat if you're basing on two handed damage and using crit-based ability.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There were a bunch of decent to good exotic weapons in 3.5.

Dwarven Warpike (partly amazing b/c you could retrain dwarf proficiencies for it for free if the C.Warrior option was allowed), Spiked Chain, Kusarigama, Gnome Quickrazor (Iaijutsu), Dragonchain (let you initiate grapples from reach, iirc, but was also a viable weapon unlike Mancatcher), Harpoon, any kind of Boomerang with Boomerang Daze feat (if your DM isn't allowing the adaptive weapon cheese), Whip-dagger, Spinning Sword...

I also never regretted spending a feat for my Talenta Sharrash, though only because the DM allowed it without the errata that made it worthless. As written, reach weapon with 19-20/x4 is pretty good.

[Segev]

Well, if Weapon Specialization is really worth the feat it costs, then EWP: Bastard Sword is half the return it should be. I bring up EWP: Bastard Sword because it's one of those oddities. The only thing that makes a bastard sword worth using over a great sword is that you can use it one-handed if you have an EWP. The only benefit it gives over a longsword, if you have the EWP, is that it's a d10 rather than a d8.

So, for a feat, you can get +1 average damage with your basic 1-handed sword.

Similar upgrade, I believe, for Small versions of both weapons.

Weapon Specialization actually gives a +2 to damage. With as specific a weapon as EWP: Bastard Sword does. In fact, a fighter could TAKE EWP: Bastard Sword if he wanted.

So, as an exercise, how would you redo the mechanics of the Bastard Sword so that taking it as an Exotic Weapon is worth it? How would you make it a worthwhile choice of weapon as a Martial weapon, when the Greatsword has higher damage output?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Bastard Sword: Without proficiency, this weapon deals 1d10 (medium) damage with a 19-20/x2 crit and must be wielded two-handed. With proficiency, you gain 2x str bonus to damage (instead of 1.5x) when wielding it two-handed, and you can also use it one-handed. If you use it in one hand, you can choose at the start of each turn to make lunging strikes with it, gaining reach but taking a -2 penalty to AC, both effects lasting until the start of your next turn.
Special: The lunging strikes option does not stack with the Lunge feat.

*Shrug* Just came up with that on the spot; 1H option might be too good, but I doubt it. 2H option rips off an Exotic Weapon Master (3.5 PrC) trick; 1H option is basically a slightly better version of PF's Lunge feat.

[Psyren]

I think Exotics should fall into four categories:

- Strictly better than most Martials, worth a feat. (e.g. Spiked Chain)
- Slightly better and racial, thus allowing {race} to get them as a martial and want to use them more (e.g. Gnomish Quickrazor)
- Not amazing damage-wise, but carrying abilities unique to the weapon itself (e.g. Battle Ladder, Garotte, possibly Sai.)
- Usable with MWP, but Exotic unlocks additional abilities or techniques with the weapon (e.g. Bastard Sword, though I prefer Stream's version.)

[Prime32]

So, as an exercise, how would you redo the mechanics of the Bastard Sword so that taking it as an Exotic Weapon is worth it? How would you make it a worthwhile choice of weapon as a Martial weapon, when the Greatsword has higher damage output?DDO made it count as a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str to damage, better Power Attack, etc.) even while wielded in one hand.

[Lyndworm]

DDO made it count as a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str to damage, better Power Attack, etc.) even while wielded in one hand.
I'd never heard of DDO doing that, but it's the rule we use at our table for all hand-and-a-half weapons (like the Dwarven waraxe and maul).

[Drelua]

DDO made it count as a two-handed weapon (1.5x Str to damage, better Power Attack, etc.) even while wielded in one hand.

I like that rule, but I wonder if that was deliberate or if it just happens because they programmed it as a two-handed weapon or something. Sort of like how in Skyrim extra light armor in your inventory doesn't weigh anything if you have the unhindered light armor perk. I doubt that was intentional, but if it lets me carry more loot I sure don't mind.

[Perseus]

Because mundanes are overpowered!