Ramifications of allowing Alter self to give Aquatic Subtype

[Crake]

So my character in a recent game almost drowned, but managed to get an alter self off and survive by transforming into a merfolk. Everyone at the table was fine with it, but after the game we were informed that alter self doesn't actually allow you to breathe underwater, because alter self doesn't grant the aquatic subtype.

My DM is fine with allowing alter self to grant the aquatic subtype, similar to how alternate form and wildshape grant it when applicable, but our informant says that this apparently a huge power shift? What do you guys think?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Meh, Alter Self is already pretty overpowered. A little more won't hurt.

[John Longarrow]

Crake,

Alter self limits your change to the same type, but does not specifically prevent you from changing to a different subtype.

It gives you any gross physical qualities ( wings, limbs, etc.. ), so I've ruled in the past that this also affects respiration. NOTE: Storm Giants do not have the aquatic subtype but can breath underwater as an EX, so I see that as being different than part of their gross anatomy.

[mattie_p]

Meh, Alter Self is already pretty overpowered. A little more won't hurt.

Alternatively, Alter Self is already extremely overpowered. Why make things worse?

Does it grant all subtypes or just aquatic?

Also, merfolk are amphibious as a special quality, which is explicitly not granted by alter self - so you could not breath air if alter self granted you the subtype. Just too many potential cascading problems.

[Rubik]

Does it grant all subtypes or just aquatic?

Also, merfolk are amphibious as a special quality, which is explicitly not granted by alter self - so you could not breath air if alter self granted you the subtype. Just too many potential cascading problems.And yet functioning gills are a gross physical quality, much like lungs are for a land animal.

[mattie_p]

And yet functioning gills are a gross physical quality, much like lungs are for a land animal.

Do merfolk have gills? :smallwink:

Let's look at what the spell says:


gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth)

I don't see internal organs mentioned there...

Like I said, headaches.

EDIT: Based on the examples, I suspect (but cannot prove) WoTC is using this:


Definition of GROSS (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gross)

1 a archaic : immediately obvious

[Crake]

Does it grant all subtypes or just aquatic?

no, just the aquatic subtype, similar to how alternate form specifically says it gets the aquatic subtype if applicable. And yeah, we agreed that I wouldn't be able to breathe air, by virtue of not getting the amphibious quality.


Crake,

Alter self limits your change to the same type, but does not specifically prevent you from changing to a different subtype.

It gives you any gross physical qualities ( wings, limbs, etc.. ), so I've ruled in the past that this also affects respiration. NOTE: Storm Giants do not have the aquatic subtype but can breath underwater as an EX, so I see that as being different than part of their gross anatomy.

Actually, alter self does specifically call out the change as not granting any change in subtype.

[HunterOfJello]

These articles from the Rules of the Game series might help out a bit. The second on specifically goes over Alter Self, though not as well as it could.

Polymorphing (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a)
Polymorphing (Part Two) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a)
Polymorphing (Part Three) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a)
Polymorphing (Part Four) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a)


~~~~~~~~~

Breathing under water would normally be some type of Special Quality (rather than Special Ability) so it wouldn't be granted from the Alter Self spell if the creature just happened to have that as a random Ex ability.

The only thing the spell says about subtypes is that, "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form" (SRD). So, you aren't changing subtypes to gain new abilities like immunity to fire.

~~~~~~~~~~


As far as balance goes with this houserule, I don't think it's all that bad. Worst case scenario, the players would use it to do lots of underwater exploration, but if they're going that route then they'll probably find a better way to breathe underwater than a 10min./level spell.

I think it's fine to assume that the person can breathe in the native environment of the creature they've just turned in to using Alter Self.


Is the DM enforcing the full description of the Aquatic Subtype, including that an Aquatic creature cannot breathe air outside of water? If so, then I think that's pretty cool and definitely fine.

~~~~~~

Lets also compare Alter Self with this added rule to the typical spell that would be used to allow someone to breathe underwater.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterBreathing.htm

The spell is 3rd level, but it also gives a duration of 2 hours/level for the person touched to be able to breathe underwater. At caster level 5, that's 50 minutes for Alter Self and 10 hours for Water Breathing. Water Breathing also wouldn't stop someone from breathing normal air, where the aquatic subtype would. Water Breathing can also have its duration decreased so that you can split it up between multiple people. That gives the spell a big boost in power via versatility that isn't normally seen in core magic.

After looking after this spell, I think it's fine for a 2nd level spell to be able to do what that guy did with Alter Self. Is alter self crazy strong? Pretty much. Is it much stronger with this added on? Not really. If it's broken, then it's broken for completely different reasons.

[Crake]

Is the DM enforcing the full description of the Aquatic Subtype, including that an Aquatic creature cannot breathe air outside of water? If so, then I think that's pretty cool and definitely fine.

yeah, that's how we're playing it.