Cleric Mechanical Interactions [3.5]

[bekeleven]

I've been building summoners recently (I'm on build 3 of a projected 5-6). Most recently, I'm working on how to stat a cleric through 20 levels, but that's neither here nor there. I keep running into odd mechanical interactions. For instance:

Racial Subbing Cloistered Cleric - Assume that I am going into cloistered cleric at first level, but am a Azurin, qualified to take the racial subs in Magic of Incarnum. As far as I can tell, I gain a D8 HD (first level only), lose the awesome 6+int skills (first level only), do not gain weapon and armor proficiencies, and retain The other cloistered buffs, such as knowledge domain, lore, etc. Does this seem right?

Applying every turn undead mod at once - Speaking of Azuran racial sub, the Channel Incarnum buff that replaces turning specifies that the player "can use this ability in place of turn or rebuke undead to qualify for any divine feat, and can spend daily uses of this feat to power divine feats as if they were daily uses of turn or rebuke undead (though doing so requires a standard action rather than a free action unless the feat states otherwise)." Does this mean 1) that I can use it to sub into planar cleric sub level 4 (which gives banishment for turn attempts) and 2) that I can use DMM, which specifies "as a free action" but obviously makes no mention of "Channel Incarum" specifically? Given that NO divine feat mentions Channel Incarnum, including the one in the Magic of Incarnum book, I think this second question is a yes.

...further updates as levels past 10 warrant...

[OldTrees1]

Unlike combining 2 alternate class features or an alternate/racial class and an alternate class feature, there are no RAW rules for combining 2 alternate/racial class substitutions on the same level.

However if we treat the racial subtituion as an alternate class feature them it reads:
Gain Knowledge(the planes) as a class skill, lose ability to cast spells with the wrong alignment, gain Channel Incarnum as a free action, lose Turn Undead.

This new racial alternate class feature is compatible with Cloistered Cleric.

(Remember if you trade Knowledge Domain away you lose its domain power and revert to only having knowledge of arcana, history, religion and the planes as class skills)

1) Channel Incarnum does not mention it counts as Turn Undead for the purpose of substition levels. The cost of the lvl 4 planar cleric level is that it reduces the level of turn undead by 3. However such a reduction does almost nothing to Channel Incarnum so only a really permissive DM would allow it.
2) Channel Incarnum mentions divine feats specifically so yes it can be used for DMM. Using Channel Incarnum to power Divine feats takes a standard action unless the feat says the action is some other size. Divine Metamagic says the action is a free action. So Channel Incarnum->Divine Metamagic is a free action.

[bekeleven]

However if we treat the racial subtituion as an alternate class feature them it reads:
Gain Knowledge(the planes) as a class skill, lose ability to cast spells with the wrong alignment, gain Channel Incarnum as a free action, lose Turn Undead.

This new racial alternate class feature is compatible with Cloistered Cleric.Some Racial Sub levels change HD and Skill Points granted that level, so it became popular for all racial sub level blocks to specify the HD and SP granted. The given racial sub levels specify D8 HD and 2+Int SP. However, racial sub levels have no mention of things they don't change (e.g. armor proficiency).

You think the level would still be D6, 6+Int? (which works better for me, because 16 SP is way better than 2 HP when I'm prestiging 3-4 times before level 20)

[Chronos]

However if we treat the racial subtituion as an alternate class feature them it reads:
Gain Knowledge(the planes) as a class skill...
Interestingly, the standard cleric already has this.

[OldTrees1]

Some Racial Sub levels change HD and Skill Points granted that level, so it became popular for all racial sub level blocks to specify the HD and SP granted. The given racial sub levels specify D8 HD and 2+Int SP. However, racial sub levels have no mention of things they don't change (e.g. armor proficiency).

You think the level would still be D6, 6+Int? (which works better for me, because 16 SP is way better than 2 HP when I'm prestiging 3-4 times before level 20)

Yes I think it would still be D6, 6+Int. However be warned that combining these two is not RAW so I would seek permission from the DM. I suspect you would be allowed if you ask.


@Chronos
Yeah that is weird. Perhaps there is an alternate class feature to trade it away? Or maybe they wanted to make sure players remembered?