Pathfinder Teir List?

[CyberThread]

So what I have seen of the pathfinder classes, it seems most of the 3.5 ones stay where they are at, except maybe paladin,ranger, and rogue moving up a spot.


Where do the Classes that were created in pathfinder sit on the old 3.5 list as in terms of the level they are.

[ellindsey]

Here's a tier list I've seen posted for the Pathfinder classes. Not my work originally.

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.
Tier 2: Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner.
Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Rogue
Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai
Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Here you go: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1389.0

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard, Oracle (with Paragon Surge), Sorcerer (with Paragon Surge);

Tier 2: Psion, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Bard (Magician w/ Paragon Surge);

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Wilder;

Tier 4: Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Soulknife;

Tier 5: Cavalier, Expert, Monk, Samurai;

Tier 6: Aristocrat, Commoner, Warrior;

I don't completely agree with the above... I think Cleric is not low tier 1, Rogue and Ninja are tier 5, and Monk and Expert ("having class skills" is a lot less useful than it once was) are tier 6, and gunslinger is high tier 4. But, pretty accurate.

[Korahir]

I completely disagree on the monk. Zen archer monk to me is tier 4 and I'd leave him generally in tier 5. I agree on moving rogue to tier 5 and expert to tier 6, but feel ninja is tier 5.

[Greenish]

Zen archer would probably get to tier 4, yeah, they seem pretty good at what they do, and what they do is pretty useful. If in doubt, Qinggong should help to push them there.


I wonder if Gifted Blade would get the soulknife enough versatility to get to tier 3. Getting to change your powers known each day is pretty cool, but I guess they don't have enough powers known or PP to quite cut it.


What of the new psionic classes?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Gifted Blade can get decent PP if you take the blade skill to make his attack/damage based off wisdom and crank the hell out of Wis score. But yeah, its powers are extremely limited, I don't think Gifted Blade jumps Soulknife to tier 3, or even high tier 4.

I really don't know much about the new psionic classes, and the thread linked to doesn't really discuss them. Only one I really looked at was Marksman when trying to build a ranged character, and it just looked like a straight-up weaker version of Psychic Warrior, vastly over-valuing the full BAB. Like, I think Psychic Warrior would make a better archer than it, which is pretty damning for a ranged-focused class...


I completely disagree on the monk. Zen archer monk to me is tier 4 and I'd leave him generally in tier 5. I agree on moving rogue to tier 5 and expert to tier 6, but feel ninja is tier 5.

Yeah, Qingong Zen Archer is tier 4. But normal monk is tier 6, albeit "high" tier 6. Qingong might push it to low tier 5.

[Korahir]

Yeah, Qingong Zen Archer is tier 4. But normal monk is tier 6, albeit "high" tier 6. Qingong might push it to low tier 5.

Agreed. Generally I feel that low level tier classes differ a lot when considering archetypes.

[Person_Man]

Wait, I thought Pathfinder Bard was Tier 4 without 3.5 material? They were stripped of their "all day buffing" shtick, don't have access to powerful 3.5 Feats like Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Doomspeak, and don't have access to strong Bard-centric PrC?

Same deal with the Inquisitor, which which is basically just a Bard with Teamwork Feat stuff. (Which suck).

I assume I'm missing something.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Green means that I'm still unsure about their position.

0. Oracle (Paragon Surge)
1. Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer (Paragon Surge) Witch, Wizard
2. Oracle, Sorcerer, Psion, Summoner
3. Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Wilder
4. Barbarian, Fighter, Gunslinger, Paladin, Ranger, Soul Knife
5. Cavalier, Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Rogue
6. NPC classes

Why the Green classes are Green:
Cleric: It just can't do melee as well as it used to, even compared to other divine casters. As a caster it's a little weaker, but has a stronger class abilities than previously. It might sit at the bottom of tier 1. Hard to place, now.

Summoner: It has a really good selection of spells, even with the reduced number of levels. But still reduced levels. Synthesist is strong, but loses its punch at higher levels. Then there are archetypes that let it cast gate a number of times equal to it's Cha modifier each day. It oscillates between 1 and 3 is what I'm saying.

Magus: I'm not convinced that until very high levels it can really do all that much more than damage. Its spell selection is not spectacular, and it's kind of squishy. At high levels it's probably tier 3, but I'm not sure if it's more than tier 4 until then.

Paladin: I think it sits at the bottom of tier 3, but that's only if you believe that the Magus is tier 3. It's clearly the best of tier 4, imo, and I think it might have enough versatity as an OOC character, and with it's class features that it's move up a tier, if only barely.

[Greenish]

Wait, I thought Pathfinder Bard was Tier 4 without 3.5 material? They were stripped of their "all day buffing" shtick, don't have access to powerful 3.5 Feats like Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Doomspeak, and don't have access to strong Bard-centric PrC?

Same deal with the Inquisitor, which which is basically just a Bard with Teamwork Feat stuff. (Which suck).

I assume I'm missing something.I guess it depends on whether you consider Core-only 3.5 bard to be tier 3 or tier 4. They have some casting, some skills, decent chassis.


[Edit]: Wouldn't Synthesist be lower tier than the bog standard Summoner on account of action economy alone?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wait, I thought Pathfinder Bard was Tier 4 without 3.5 material? They were stripped of their "all day buffing" shtick, don't have access to powerful 3.5 Feats like Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Doomspeak, and don't have access to strong Bard-centric PrC?

Same deal with the Inquisitor, which which is basically just a Bard with Teamwork Feat stuff. (Which suck).

I assume I'm missing something.

Well, all classes lost stuff from 3E. Admittedly, Bard and Sorcerer lost the most.

It's mainly a case of "lost a lot, but still didn't drop a tier." It's still a very versatile class that can do well in combat and contribute to most types of encounters. And PF *did* buff their spells known, spell slots, and even spell progression. To me, it was being a weak full caster that made Bard tier 3 more than anything else, and PF kept that the same.

Bardic performance is still enough to buff through basically all the fights you'll have in a day. It was more the out of combat performances that got turned worthless by the rounds/day thing. Inspire Competence on the rogue as he takes 20 searching for traps? That's just not even possible anymore. Though, on the other hand, the Bard can just steal the rogue's job doing that now. :smalltongue:


Why the Green classes are Green:
Cleric: It just can't do melee as well as it used to, even compared to other divine casters. As a caster it's a little weaker, but has a stronger class abilities than previously. It might sit at the bottom of tier 1. Hard to place, now.

Summoner: It has a really good selection of spells, even with the reduced number of levels. But still reduced levels. Synthesist is strong, but loses its punch at higher levels. Then there are archetypes that let it cast gate a number of times equal to it's Cha modifier each day. It oscillates between 1 and 3 is what I'm saying.

Magus: I'm not convinced that until very high levels it can really do all that much more than damage. Its spell selection is not spectacular, and it's kind of squishy. At high levels it's probably tier 3, but I'm not sure if it's more than tier 4 until then.

Paladin: I think it sits at the bottom of tier 3, but that's only if you believe that the Magus is tier 3. It's clearly the best of tier 4, imo, and I think it might have enough versatity as an OOC character, and with it's class features that it's move up a tier, if only barely.

Cleric: How so? Its spells are largely unchanged or changed but about as powerful. It lost heavy armor but got freebie weapon proficiency instead. You need a pretty MAJOR justification to move it from very solidly tier 1 in 3E to bottom of it in Pathfinder. " ' Cause DMM Persist, boo hoo!" doesn't cut it, every class lost a ton of toys from 3E, and cleric didn't even lose the most of them!

Summoner: Very solidly in tier 2. The spells are amazing and the reduced levels make the 6-caster thing not actually mean anything. Minor DC loss (on a spell list featuring battlefield control spells where often the save hardly even matters) is very easily made up for by being able to use lesser meta rods on spells others would have to spend meta rods on, and meta rods on spells others would have to spend greater rods on. The Eidolon is flat-out better than every martial class in its own right, and you're getting both actions each turn. I agree with the other poster, Synthesist is actually such a nerf that it might drop down to HIGH tier 3. Now you're "only" the best melee character in the game or a formidable spellcaster each round, and not both simultaneously.

Magus: It has less versatility than other tier 3's, but it is still versatile, and does indeed pump out a lot of damage. Spell Combat gives it some action economy boons, and with Bladed Dash actually makes Magus the best skirmisher in PF. Spellstrike can be twinked for a lot of damage, and also combined with some status effect spells like Frigid Touch or (once you can add it to your list) Calcific Touch. In any case, whether base Magus is 3 or 4, there is no question that Hexcrafter is tier 3.

Paladin: What versatility? It has horrible skill points and no non-combat class features other than healing. Spells also don't give that much utility. It's also poor on offense except when smiting, which contrary to what many seem to think, is a very limited resource. Without smite, their offense is poor, which also means they ironically suck against big hordes of undead and such. Paladin's strength is defense, and unlike Monk...it actually delivers on that front. But you win fights with offense. Paladin is a case where it seems like a Tier 2 against your BBEG (emphasis on the E), but is pretty mediocre middle to low tier 4 the rest of the time.