How do I shot gemstone breath?

[Venger]

So, the no-nonsense psion handbook has a rather high opinion of the "gemstone breath" power from dragon magic. I am a little confused by one aspect of it, though:

So, as you level up, you can give yourself more powerful instances of the breath weapon and inflict different status effects on adversaries.

However, you can only fire the breath weapon off every other round.

Would it be legal to have two instances of the power running on yourself at the same time in order to make use of a breath weapon every round?

example:

turn 1) swift to manifest the power, standard to breathe amethyst dragon's force breath
turn 2) swift to manifest the power without augments, standard to breathe crystal dragon's blinding breath
turn 3) standard amethyst breath
turn 4) standard crystal breath

and so on. Is this how the power works?

[Jack_Simth]

and so on. Is this how the power works?
Nope. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#sameEffectMorethanOncein DifferentStrengths). You're either running up against:

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired).
or

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts. (emphasis added in both cases)

[Venger]

is that the case for things like augments?

would this mean you can't cast resist energy (fire) and resist energy (acid) on yourself?

[Rubik]

This is a power you could potentially build yourself around. Take the dragonborn (heart) template to grab a breath weapon and start taking metabreath feats along with your metapsionic feats.

Note that the Gemstone Breath power actually grants you a breath weapon, and it's also a psionic power -- meaning that both metabreath and metapsionic feats work with it. Take a level or two in anarchic initiate, and if you apply Empower Breath, Empower Power, and the chaotic surge ability, you stand a chance of triple-Empowering it. Then alternate your regular breath weapon with Gemstone Breath, and you can likely breathe something every round.

[Jack_Simth]

is that the case for things like augments?

would this mean you can't cast resist energy (fire) and resist energy (acid) on yourself?
In the sense that you technically can't have both active at the same time, yes, although a rather lot of people ignore that.

[Turok124]

This is a power you could potentially build yourself around. Take the dragonborn (heart) template to grab a breath weapon and start taking metabreath feats along with your metapsionic feats.

Note that the Gemstone Breath power actually grants you a breath weapon, and it's also a psionic power -- meaning that both metabreath and metapsionic feats work with it. Take a level or two in anarchic initiate, and if you apply Empower Breath, Empower Power, and the chaotic surge ability, you stand a chance of triple-Empowering it. Then alternate your regular breath weapon with Gemstone Breath, and you can likely breathe something every round.

I keep seeing people mention "empower breath" every time this power gets brought up....except "EMPOWER breath" doesn't exist. At least, I have yet to find it :/

[Jack_Simth]

I keep seeing people mention "empower breath" every time this power gets brought up....except "EMPOWER breath" doesn't exist. At least, I have yet to find it :/
Hmm. You know, I'm not seeing it either!

[Curmudgeon]

In the sense that you technically can't have both active at the same time, yes, although a rather lot of people ignore that.
I beg to differ with you. Resistance to fire and resistance to acid are different effects, even if they are produced by the same spell. From pages 171-172 of Player's Handbook:
COMBINING MAGICAL EFFECTS
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient.
...
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.
...
More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). Bonuses of different types coming from the same spell are an exception to the usual spell stacking limits; they instead follow the most common rule, in that the different effects simply work as described.

[Raendyn]

Take the dragonborn (heart) template to grab a breath weapon and start taking metabreath feats along with your metapsionic feats.


WARNING!

Cheeeeese detected! :smalltongue:

If your DM isn't stupid/doesn't know the rules very well/is fond of going mad easily, don't consider mentioning this, or My newly gained phychic powers, say that you gota see DMG + other splatbooks flying towards you.

[Segev]

Yeah, if you give yourself separate breath weapons, even from the same spell/power, you get multiple breath weapons. Still takes the same actions to use them, but they'd be on different timers.

Breath of the Dragon is a spell in the Spell Compendium that's kind-of fun to use with that. Especially since you can share it with your Familiar to let it breathe in the round you cast. Cast 2-4 of them and you'll almost always have a breath weapon for your Familiar to use, as well as, when you're done casting, ones for yourself.

ETA:

So, round 1: Cast Dragon's Breath (p. 73, spell compendium). Familiar uses Standard to breathe. Roll 1d4 for Familiar; he can re-use after that many rounds.
Round 2: Cast again (because your Familiar is out of BW from the prior casting for this round, so either you use a BW or cast so he can, and either way you get 1 breath weapon this round); Familiar breathes THAT breath weapon. Roll 1d4 for the Familiar again to see the wait time on this one.
Round 3: If the Familiar rolled "1" on the round 1 BW, both of you use that BW this round. If not, you cast a third Dragon's Breath and let the Familiar breathe THAT one. Roll 1d4 for him and possibly you to check reset.

Each time your familiar cannot use a breath weapon, you cast another instance of Dragon's Breath to let him do so. Rounds where he can and you have one ready, both of you breathe. If he has one up and you don't...well, you cast anyway, because that accelerates you towards having 5 iterations active. When you have 5 iterations active, you and your familiar will ALWAYS have at least one available, because even if all of them take the full 4-round wait period, you have one for each round.

[Raendyn]

Cast 2-4 of them and you'll almost always have a breath weapon for your Familiar to use, as well as, when you're done casting, ones for yourself.

Wasn't there a rule that when 1 breath weapon is on cooldown all your other bearths are on CD too?

I can agree that you can have many breath weapons via many seperate instances of the spell though. You just have to pick one and then wait.

[Segev]

Wasn't there a rule that when 1 breath weapon is on cooldown all your other bearths are on CD too?

I can agree that you can have many breath weapons via many seperate instances of the spell though. You just have to pick one and then wait.

Said rule doesn't show up in the spell itself. The Breath Weapon Special Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#breathWeapon) says that a breath weapon usually has a limit in uses/day or a cooldown time, but says nothing about multiple BWs being bound by the same cooldown timer.

I think it's a case-by-case thing, and if so, that means the spell, lacking any such linking phraseology, has independent cooldown timers.


A dragon could use the spell to "bypass" his own cooldown timer if he wanted, but I don't htink it would be a good use of his time or energy.

[Raendyn]

From rules Compendium


Most creatures that have breath weapons are limited to a number of uses per day or by a minimum length of time that must pass between uses. Even if a creature has more than one type of breath weapon, the time between uses is a time during which it can’t use any of its breath weapons.

Emphasis mine.


Said rule doesn't show up in the spell itself.

Uh bro, the spesific rule must state that something is an exeption in order to override the general rule, com'on..

[Jack_Simth]

I beg to differ with you. Resistance to fire and resistance to acid are different effects, even if they are produced by the same spell. From pages 171-172 of Player's Handbook: Bonuses of different types coming from the same spell are an exception to the usual spell stacking limits; they instead follow the most common rule, in that the different effects simply work as described.
You've got a lot of cut text in there. In what sense does the spell Energy Resistance *not* fall under the "Same Effect with Differing Results" section on page 172? You're casting one spell multiple times. Each time you cast it, it has a different effect (Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, say). Granted, it's not the Polymorph spell used in the example, but it seems to be the same thing.

[Curmudgeon]

You've got a lot of cut text in there. In what sense does the spell Energy Resistance *not* fall under the "Same Effect with Differing Results" section on page 172? You're casting one spell multiple times. Each time you cast it, it has a different effect (Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, say). Granted, it's not the Polymorph spell used in the example, but it seems to be the same thing.
It doesn't fall under the same effect rule because each type of resistance is a different effect. In many (most?) cases spells and effects overlap. However, some spells can yield multiple effects, and Resist Energy is one such spell. Bestow Curse is another example.

[Raendyn]

It doesn't fall under the same effect rule because each type of resistance is a different effect. In many (most?) cases spells and effects overlap. However, some spells can yield multiple effects, and Resist Energy is one such spell. Bestow Curse is another example.

I may be wrong, but I honestly believe that if it was supposed to work as you say, then resist energy would be seperated into the subspells. The same fashion protection from good/evil/... etc works, or at least have something like " you can be subjected to this spell many times, each time picking a different elemnt..." or similar.

[olentu]

It doesn't fall under the same effect rule because each type of resistance is a different effect. In many (most?) cases spells and effects overlap. However, some spells can yield multiple effects, and Resist Energy is one such spell. Bestow Curse is another example.

So you are basing your whole analysis on the title of the section and taking that to mean the effects must be exactly the same in every way. That is an interesting stance. I suppose that by that measure there is no effect that is exactly the same as any other barring twin spell or something of the sort. Every effect is different from another by small details such as the time they were cast, remaining duration, original caster, etc. Since divination magic can differentiate between these various circumstances the difference is a concrete observable thing. Thus the same effect rule almost never works on anything.

[Curmudgeon]

I may be wrong, but I honestly believe that if it was supposed to work as you say, then resist energy would be seperated into the subspells.
That would make the spells have less utility, because you'd need to either prepare 5x as many of them or learn 5x as many of them. Protection from Evil, & c. are all aligned spells, meaning they can't be prepared or cast by Clerics with opposing alignments; that's one reason to separate them into different spells. A Lawful Good Cleric can't ever prepare Protection from Law or Protection from Good. Energy types don't have that sort of restriction.

[Jack_Simth]

It doesn't fall under the same effect rule because each type of resistance is a different effect. In many (most?) cases spells and effects overlap. However, some spells can yield multiple effects, and Resist Energy is one such spell. Bestow Curse is another example.
...

You're going strictly by the title? I'll quote the SRD, because it's safe to copy/paste for discussions such as these. You can look up the PHB text if you like.
Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts. (emphasis added)

So... yeah, while the title may say Effect, the actual description is very clearly referencing spells. While the PHB example (it only uses one example) is Polymorph, I'm not seeing *anything* that prevents it from having the same effect on Resist Energy or Bestow Curse (so, you know, you can negate a curse that is meaningful to you by putting on a new one that isn't).

That would make the spells have less utility, because you'd need to either prepare 5x as many of them or learn 5x as many of them. Protection from Evil, & c. are all aligned spells, meaning they can't be prepared or cast by Clerics with opposing alignments; that's one reason to separate them into different spells. A Lawful Good Cleric can't ever prepare Protection from Law or Protection from Good. Energy types don't have that sort of restriction.
The Summon Monster line, the Summon Nature's Ally line, the Planar Ally line, Align Weapon, and quite a few other Divine spells have varying alignment descriptors when cast, yet they're not separated out into different spells.

[Raendyn]

That would make the spells have less utility, because you'd need to either prepare 5x as many of them or learn 5x as many of them. Protection from Evil, & c. are all aligned spells, meaning they can't be prepared or cast by Clerics with opposing alignments; that's one reason to separate them into different spells. A Lawful Good Cleric can't ever prepare Protection from Law or Protection from Good. Energy types don't have that sort of restriction.

Well, that was only half of what I said that is possible, and your argument really hardly even stands, with all those problems caused by bad wordings already I can't be convinced that they did that on purpose to provide utility to the poor vacian casters, sorcerers mostly at that time. Spellcasters in the vacian spellcasting already suffer from the same problem with almost every energy discriptor'ed spell, only psionics have this added utility(or at least psioncs).

Again, despite that, it should say that you can cast it multiple times, like create magic tatoo says that you can be affected by 2-3 of them, cba to check exact number:smalltongue:, which is the only reason you can have many tatoos with different bonuses each, otherwise it wouldnt be possible, same applies to Resist energy, no special rule for multiple application equals no multiple applications.

[Curmudgeon]

... same applies to Resist energy, no special rule for multiple application equals no multiple applications.
Actually, there is a special rule which applies here:
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless) That one word makes it impossible for the spell not to stack if there are different effects involved.

Let's suppose you're wading through a pool of acid which would do 3d6 points of damage every round, but you've got resistance to acid 20 going. An enemy spellcaster, if the spell effect was not stipulated to be harmless, would be able to replace your resistance to acid 20 with resistance to cold 30 instead. However, because that replacement would harm you, it can't happen. The only way to guarantee that is to have the different effects from the same spell stack.

[olentu]

Actually, there is a special rule which applies here: That one word makes it impossible for the spell not to stack if there are different effects involved.

Let's suppose you're wading through a pool of acid which would do 3d6 points of damage every round, but you've got resistance to acid 20 going. An enemy spellcaster, if the spell effect was not stipulated to be harmless, would be able to replace your resistance to acid 20 with resistance to cold 30 instead. However, because that replacement would harm you, it can't happen. The only way to guarantee that is to have the different effects from the same spell stack.

Really.

"(harmless): The spell is usually beneficial, not harmful, but a targeted creature can attempt a saving throw if it desires."

Please note the "usually" preceding the "beneficial, not harmful," in the description.

[Segev]

From rules Compendium



Emphasis mine. You'll note I didn't quote the Rules Compendium; I don't have a copy to reference. I thus checked only the SRD. Which I referenced quite clearly.




Uh bro, the spesific rule must state that something is an exeption in order to override the general rule, com'on..

Indeed. And, lacking the RC reference, the general rule said nothing about it either.

I'm not a fan of this Rules compendium nonsense, as it actively makes using BWs with cooldowns bad for characters that have more than one, but I won't argue the point further. As I said, I quoted the rules I had, and for the specific to trump general with the general I had, it would have had to say so in the spell.

Since the spell is silent, there is no specific to trump general. You have a different (and overriding, per RAW) general, so it works as you say. But please do check the attitude when providing correction.

[Turok124]

WARNING!

Cheeeeese detected! :smalltongue:

If your DM isn't stupid/doesn't know the rules very well/is fond of going mad easily, don't consider mentioning this, or My newly gained phychic powers, say that you gota see DMG + other splatbooks flying towards you.

I really don't see how bad this can be. You can't use empower/maximize power on gemstone breath. And it's a LOT of feat investment just to make this worthwhile (even if you ignore the "multiple breaths/one cool down" rule.

[Raendyn]

stuffSorry bro if I seemed a little rude, as a non-native english I sometimes give wrong impressions. I should have known that its probably something else there than "I wanna abuse something", You are known for rational builds and ruling.

As for the Rules Compendium, take a quick cover to cover look, you'll change opinion, it solved more than it caused.


I really don't see how bad this can be. You can't use empower/maximize power on gemstone breath. And it's a LOT of feat investment just to make this worthwhile (even if you ignore the "multiple breaths/one cool down" rule.

Whether you can or can't rly doesn't matter, cause GSBreath isn't a nice pick for those feats, you need something with max dices if you are to abuse that. Secondly, when you use cheese it doesn't matter if its too powerfull or not, its still cheese and it can be used in far more Overpowered and silly ways, not to mention that even before realising the potential, DM's will say a big flat NO when they understand how you qualify for the metabreaths and where you use them.

As for the "I should be able to do this cause I invested heavily", thats an argument when you invest more than feats in general, and at the same time you combo 4-5 of them +class lvls in order to do something. here, each feat independently is an optimal choice on its own, you just stack many of them.....


Actually, there is a special rule which applies here: That one word makes it impossible for the spell not to stack if there are different effects involved.

Clarify and provide source pls.


Let's suppose you're wading through a pool of acid which would do 3d6 points of damage every round, but you've got resistance to acid 20 going. An enemy spellcaster, if the spell effect was not stipulated to be harmless, would be able to replace your resistance to acid 20 with resistance to cold 30 instead. However, because that replacement would harm you, it can't happen. The only way to guarantee that is to have the different effects from the same spell stack.

There are so many similar examples that this scenario doesn't seem to convince me sry, I have the same troubles to be able to touch and beat their save when sirens dominate my allies and I must touch them to cast protection from ____, I can't understand why you must be immune to what this guy in your example is trying to do.

You wanna touch me and at the same time hope that I will fail my save? Good luck with that, now take some AOO's, let me instroduce you to Mikan Kuma, he is the Barbarian of the group and when I say "Woof" he goes rly angry, WOOF!....