Questions about Deck of Many Things

[The Kind Knido]

Me and another were discussing the Deck of Many Things, namely the Void card, and we were debating what would happen to a lich if he were to draw the Void card.

First off, if the lich was in normal possession of his phylactery and drew the Void card, would the soul be extracted from the phylactery and sent off to another plane or planet?

Would enchantments prevent the Deck from extracting the soul from the phylactery?

Secondly, if someone else in the party owned the phylactery for just this occasion would it mean the lich technically had no soul at all to be sent off?

Could the Talons card be avoided if you sold your phylactery to a party member?

If the Void couldn't affect a lich performing any kind of exploits to try and trick the Deck, would you simply just stop drawing cards and leave the deck behind?

I know this is a lot of questions, but I just thought these were some interesting topics.

[Alleran]

The text:

"This black card spells instant disaster. The character’s body continues to function, as though comatose, but her psyche is trapped in a prison somewhere—in an object on a far plane or planet, possibly in the possession of an outsider."

"Body functions, but soul is trapped elsewhere."

Assuming that psyche and soul are identical here, it states quite clearly that the soul will be trapped elsewhere in a prison, possibly in an object. In the case of a lich, I would assume for simplicity that it's taken out of their phylactery and put into another object. It could also remain in their phylactery and said phylactery becomes the possession of an outsider, which is a similarly distasteful choice for a lich who would rather his soul isn't some extraplanar creature's plaything.

In addition, the body of the character, lich or not, becomes comatose.

[The Kind Knido]

Good points, however, if the phylactery were to have any kind of enchantments, would the Black Card be able to completely bypass them, or would a specific or houseruled roll be needed?

[mattie_p]

The Deck of Many Things is a minor artifact, meaning the protections on the lich's phylactery would have to be similarly strong (generally caster level 20+) in order to overcome the deck, as well as being more specific in defense to overcome the artifact's wording.

[ryu]

Bypass. It makes no note of needing special rolls to bypass taking the soul from your body if it's somehow bound to it.

[The Kind Knido]

Then, for example, if you had a really good Undetectable Enchantment on your phylactery and hit it in whatever safe place that only you know, how would the deck fare?

[ryu]

This is a minor artifact with incredible risks. There's a reason it has no save or tags that could be used for immunities. The deck of many things is the ultimate who dares wins item not a goddamn toy.

[afroakuma]

Good points, however, if the phylactery were to have any kind of enchantments, would the Black Card be able to completely bypass them, or would a specific or houseruled roll be needed?

The Deck's power is such that you choosing to draw the card effectively signs a contract that says the Deck can do this to you. It would be no different than your own ability to bypass or end your own wards.

In the case of a lich, the "psyche" is removed from the "soul," but both become entrapped by the power of the card, just as though the lich had lost its body and was confined to the phylactery. Effectively, that force which animates the lich leaves the body it inhabits; that this force already comes prepackaged in its own fancy little carrying case is a perk for the recipient.

[Alleran]

Then, for example, if you had a really good Undetectable Enchantment on your phylactery and hit it in whatever safe place that only you know, how would the deck fare?
Why would that matter? The Deck states very clearly what it does. It takes your soul/psyche and imprisons it on a distant plane/planet, possibly in the possession of something. It doesn't matter where you try to hide it, because that's what will happen short of GM-fiat.

[The Kind Knido]

It just seems like you'd be able to stump it with good enough spells. If the deck can't perform what it wants to do, if the draw was The Void, you'd just stop drawing and nothing would happen.

But I guess not. It doesn't make sense that you wouldn't be able to stump it at all.

How's this one? You're a psion and you research for years how to predict the next draw of the Deck. If it were possible to predict something that is chanced, would the Deck block it anyways?

[John Longarrow]

Skorn,

In the past I've allowed divination spells to determine the maximum number of cards a player can draw before they hit something they believe to be not worth the risk. I know two other DM's who will allow the same.

Not the same as saying "I'm undoing a Void card". More "I'm avoiding a bad situation". Of course the DM can choose to an extent what they consider to be not worth the risk and many divinations are not exact...

NOTE: Yes, this means the DM pre-generates your results. DM also pre-generates the results for everyone else and does some mental calculations.

[DeltaEmil]

Cast augury. Now you know at least if you should continue drawing or not. Augury won't tell you what card you get, but it will tell you if it will be weal or woe to you.

Because the question will be straightforward ("will the next card I draw from the Deck of Many Things be good or bad for me?"), you won't have to fear that the augury spell fails.

Donjon, Euryale, Flames, Fool, Idiot, Rogue, Ruin, Skull, Talon, and The Void will normally count as woe.

Idiot might be counted as nothing for the lich, since he or she is immune to ability drain.

[Segev]

The Deck requires you to decide how many cards before you draw the first one, I thought.

[John Longarrow]

Segev.
Yes. Augury wouldn't work on a per-card basis. There are a few spells that will let you guess at how many cards you can grab before you start though, and doing an Augury to see if "Would drawing 3 cards be bad?" can work.

[elonin]

Is Augury a strong enough spell for the job? The item description doesn't mention interactiions divination. Unless I'm mistaken Skip Williams gave a sage advise about deck of many things and implied that it shouldn't work.

Any thoughts about luck re-rolls?

[Samalpetey]

Isn't the phylactery just where the lich's soul goes if his body's destroyed? I don't see why the deck would treat a lich differently to anyone else

[DeltaEmil]

What does augury's "strength" have to do with the Deck of Many Things?

Is the first card I draw from the Deck of Many Things good or bad for me? Augury says Weal.
Is the second card I draw from the Deck of Many Things good or bad? Augury says Woe.
Is the third card I draw from the Deck of Many Things good or bad? Augury says Woe again.

It's a very straightforward thing, and the Deck is not a sentient or something like that. In fact, there are multiple Decks of Many Things. People don't know how to really make them anymore, but these are in the end only minor artifacts.

[The Kind Knido]

Yes, I believe the deck does require you to announce how many cards you draw, and then you proceed to drawn them until you run out, die, or a card says to stop drawing.

Augury sounds like the best choice to determine how many cards is a good amount, though it would have to be worded "How many cards can I draw before I draw a card that would affect me in a negative way?"

I wonder, if you could shuffle the deck at all, could you continue to do so until Augury informs you that you may draw all the good cards and leave the bad ones for someone else to draw?

On the topic of liches, I always thought a lich's soul was always in his phylactery when the ritual was completed, though I could be very wrong.

[jindra34]

The lich thing depends on DM.
And you can NEVER draw all the good cards out of a Deck because with the exception of a few cards drawn cards reshuffle into the deck after each draw.

[The Kind Knido]

Damn, I never took into consideration a reshuffle by a card effect. That seems to completely demolish being able to use Augury unless you said something like "How many cards can I draw before the next card or a reshuffle causes the next card to be a bad one?"

I guess experimentation with the Deck of Many Things would really depend on the DM unless you just wanted to make a campaign solely for experimenting with the game's mechanics with no restrictions and only abiding by what the source books say.

[ArcturusV]

Note that Augury is generally limited to "Yes/No" sort of questions. YOu can't ask a number for it. You can ask something like "Can I draw three cards safely" and it'll tell you Weal/Woe. But not which card is the one that will be bad, or if all of htem are. If you wanted to go card by card like that and cheat destiny it'd require you to cast Augury a lot of times for each individual card you'd draw.

Also keep in mind that, if I remember right, once you do you "Draw X", the deck disappears. So you can't keep it around and go "Will the top card of the deck be good for me?" Draw. Use it. Then Augury again. You'd have to do it all in one shot.

Combined with the reshuffles, it means that basically Augury has a good chance of working for a single card draw, but wouldn't be reliable for anything more. Much less be Cruise Control to Victory.

[The Kind Knido]

Well, Augury's out of the game for this scenario unless you brought enough Decks to obtain all the good effects anyways, which, if you played a game just to experiment, would be possible but long and boring as hell.

[TuggyNE]

Note that Augury is generally limited to "Yes/No" sort of questions. YOu can't ask a number for it. You can ask something like "Can I draw three cards safely" and it'll tell you Weal/Woe. But not which card is the one that will be bad, or if all of htem are. If you wanted to go card by card like that and cheat destiny it'd require you to cast Augury a lot of times for each individual card you'd draw.

Also keep in mind that, if I remember right, once you do you "Draw X", the deck disappears. So you can't keep it around and go "Will the top card of the deck be good for me?" Draw. Use it. Then Augury again. You'd have to do it all in one shot.

Combined with the reshuffles, it means that basically Augury has a good chance of working for a single card draw, but wouldn't be reliable for anything more. Much less be Cruise Control to Victory.

Augury in sequence for each card (ahead of time, of course) has about a 30% chance of misleading you into drawing one card beyond the safe limit, since the only way that happens is if the dangerous card gives you a misreport; the next casting will catch it and let you know that either it or the preceding one are unsafe. If you want to be sensible, assume both are unsafe and go back to N-2, which has a 7% or less chance of being unsafe. Or go back even yet once further, for a 2% or less chance of getting slapped.