Speeding up Combat?

[Raine_Sage]

So I've recently started DMing a campaign for a group of friends and so far everything has been running more or less smoothly. There's a good group dynamic, everyone's getting along, they're all very good at roleplaying.

However I've noticed that the combat encounters are dragging a little. The focus so far has been more on roleplaying and uncovering mysteries. When we get further in to campaign I'm going to hurl them halfway across the continent and the focus is going to be on the shenanigans they have trying to get back home in one piece. With the focus on player built stories I've been trying to keep the combat encounters small bite sized affairs, while still awarding enough exp to keep the level progression fairly steady so that the story can advance fluidly rather than in checkpoint style chunks.

I've been using modules to gauge roughly how many monsters per encounter I should use and what their levels should be, and in the cases where I want the battle over quickly I just shave some enemies off or lower overall hp. However even when I do this I'm finding it takes upwards of 1 hour to get through most combat encounters. Usually I only have time for 1 per session.

I feel like there must be a better solution to this problem that I'm missing. Some things to note here:

- We're playing forgotten realms 4th edition
- I checked all the character sheets prior to starting everyone's attack is right where it should be for their level
- My players, while excellent roleplayers, are not the best at tactics. They have a tendency to stay in one place and hit whatever happens to be closest. I plan on broaching the subject of smarter play next session, just a reminder that they're allowed to come up with plans in the middle of a fight. We'll see if that helps anything.
- Dice rolls have not been kind to anyone. Last battle was a bunch of failed attack/saving throws. I don't think I'll use monsters with the ability to blind for awhile, it was terrible.

[gdiddy]

This seems like a mismatch. Two actually, both the system and everyone's expectations seem mismatched.

4e Dungeons and Dragons (with one or two minor exceptions) is all about simulating tactical combat; that's kind of the point of the game and the combat rules. Everything else is rules light, because the actually game focuses on fighting people. The combats are intricate, mapped out, long, and incredibly mind-numbingly boring if you don't like tactical combat.

I would definitely talk it over with them. Because it seems like you're bored by the lack of combat tactics and low combat counts. I mean, if the players are so fired up to roleplay and are having a blast, who cares about killing stuff? If you miss it (God knows why. I'd never trade a group that prefers IC chat for combat.), I'd mention it to them. BUT NOT as something they are doing wrong. They aren't playing dumb. They might just be having trouble with a system that highlights a style of play that some players find really boring and tedious.

I would consider talking to them about shifting their characters to a system that won't drag down the game by concentrating on something they are neither interested in or good at.

[jedipotter]

4E is the wrong game for the casual role player. 4E was made for the super hyper video game players that demand lots of wow! factors. You might want to switch systems.

Some suggestions:

-Make foes weak. Give them like five or so hps, so one hit kills
-Make foes dumb. Have them just walk over and stand in front of the PC's.
-Make foes easy. Have them only use the most basic stuff.

[Rhynn]

One hour for a fight sounds completely standard for 4E (and 3.X, at that). I've frequently/regularly run combats longer than an hour in 3E (but only one other game: Rolemaster). There may be ways to shave a little time off, but it's how the game is designed, no matter how you cut it.

If you want a game with faster combat, there's plenty of options. My signature has links to a ton of free D&D retroclones, and most have very simple combat rules that make for very quick combat. If you don't consider tactical combat important for your enjoyment, I don't think 4E offers you any advantages over most other games.

[UndertakerSheep]

Here are a few things I use in my 4e games to speed up combat.

If a player's turn comes up and he acts immediately, he gets a +2 bonus on all relevant d20 rolls. This is a great incentive for a few of my players to plan their turns ahead of time.
If a player's turn takes too long for my taste, I will slowly and calmly count down from five. If I get to zero before he makes up his mind, his character delays and he can jump back into the action when he knows what he wants to do.
Remind people of the initiative order. You can put up an initiative list somewhere where everyone can see, or you can tell players they're 'on deck'. Example: "Dave, it's your turn. Ed, you're next!". Hopefully this makes some players think what their character is going to do one turn before they have to act (this works great when combined with the first tip).
When the second round of combat begins, place a d6 with the '1' facing up on the table. All players gain a +1 bonus on attack/damage rolls and skill checks. At the start of each subsequent round, increase the d6 and the bonus by one, up to a maximum of 6.*
Only use monsters using the statistics from the Monster Manual 3 and Monster Vaults. On average, most monsters have lower defences and deal more damage. They go down quicker (which speeds up combat) and they're deadlier (which keeps the encounter interesting).

*: I stole this idea from the 13th Age RPG, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet. I heard somewhere it helps speed up combat and I can't wait to give it a try.

Even with these things, combat usually lasts for the better part of an hour. It's something you can't avoid with recent editions of D&D. I used to prepare multiple encounters per session, but that always turned into a disappointment (either we couldn't do all the encounters, or it all felt rushed). These days I plan one encounter per session (at most) and make sure that encounter counts! I use interesting terrain to keep the fight interesting, and I've borrowed Chris Perkin's '3 act method' to encounter creation:

Act One: The initial threat is introduced. Pretty straight forward. Here's your objective, be it kill all the creatures, disable that device or catch that running thief.
Act Two: Reinforcements arrive. I usually pull this one in round 2 or 3 of the combat, depending on how deadly the combat is turning out for either side. Most of the times its the enemies that receive reinforcements, but sometimes it's the players who gain some backup.
Act Three: The Twist. The floor falls away. A sandstorm kicks in. Those arcane crystals suddenly activate and the room is filled with lightning bolts arcing in every direction. Anything that changes the battle dynamic will make the combat feel fresh again.

I sometimes switch Act Two and Three to keep things interesting. If the arcane crystals mentioned above only damages the enemies, it's as if the players received reinforcements.

[Darcand]

Try minimizing your dice rolls. I don't roll damage for my monsters, they just deal the average on each attack. That alone cuts out about 20% of the time spent squinting at dice, doing math in your head.

I also like to offer some options to my players for speeding things up, such as using average damage for their attacks too.

Or having everyone add 11 to their base saves, and then treating them like another form of defense. 4e might already do that, I'm not certain, but it cuts out tons of time too, since all I have to do is roll the DC check against everyone's save bonus and call out the result.

For solutions like those however I make it optional to the party, and it's either all of them or none of them use the alternate rules.

Other helpful time savers! No books or phones at the table.

Get a minute hour glass, each player has until it runs out to begin their turn, otherwise they miss that round. They flip it over as they pass it to the next player too, so no one can stall for extra time but slow flipping.

Roll for initiative, begin combat with the highest roll, but then just go round robin by player, with NPCs acting when it gets to you.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I haven't played 4e for a while, but I remember encounters dragging a lot at first. My recommendation is to cut everything's health in half-- monsters and players alike. I did something similar, and I remember it added a lot of excitement and danger back into a system that had turned every fight into a grinding slog.

You can also try using more and more minions. Those are great for fast, exciting battles.

[Rosstin]

If a player's turn comes up and he acts immediately, he gets a +2 bonus on all relevant d20 rolls. This is a great incentive for a few of my players to plan their turns ahead of time.

This is BRILLIANT. I love it!

[InQbait]

Combat dragging on is not only a feature of 4th edition D&D, but also of Pathfinder. The biggest problem I have I think is looking up what the spells do. That's why sometimes I just make up an effect based on the spell's name when I see it. I find that I forget to make a lot of checks or saves, or forget about a bonus or penalty here or there. To me, these systems are a huge headache and while the art in the books is beautiful, and the game is definitely complete, it's just not something I want to spend my time on. Face the facts. 4e and PF are going to be a long grind for each combat and you may find yourself saying, "Crap on this. Let's just say the players won this fight. I am so done."
Might I suggest using a different system, one that is not so rules-heavy?
Unless you like that sort of thing, of course.

[tasw]

my big PF fights last about 20 minutes. its not hard at all to do.

Suggestion 1. Learn the rules, not being a jerk but looking up the rules is a huge hassle and time waster. Do not do that, Ever.

Suggestion 1a. use the DM's best friend, the +2/-2 or 4 is a huge help. Want to know a bonus but dont have it memorized? 2 if its small, 4 if it should be big. Player with a wacky idea you might need to look up? Same deal.

2. digital tools. I have the PF spell compendium app on my phone and it makes things quick and easy to get all the details in moments.

3.Wing it. If you dont know something dont bring the game to a screeching halt. make something up that seems fair to everyone and go with it.

4. as a gm, dont use too many npc/ monster buffs. I know its tempting, dont do it. You dont need to optimize the heck out of every enemy. You always have more enemies. And if your players are having it too easy? Use more simple bad guys, dont worry about optimizing the current monsters.

[Cloud]

My 3.5 fights honestly seem as long or longer than my 4ed fights, with the wizard attacking with his 4 hasted creatures and all while looking up a spell to cast, while the druid is a bear summoning a bear while riding a bear, and a precision damage two-weapon fighter wielder is attacking some 8 times, each one with some 13d6 to roll.

As has been said though, 4ed rule wise is much better at tactical fights, and if your players aren't focusing on that aspect, it may not be the best system to use. As for spending up things in 4ed, definitely only use monsters from the MM3 onwards.

I also give my monsters the following ability;
Overdrive (Free Action when bloodied):
Add 1 +1/3 level to this creatures next damage roll and this creature takes an equal amount of damage. This damage cannot be resisted.

Also you can further increase the damage of monsters while lowering their hit points, though this can be rather maths intensive to do on the fly (particularly with what you should do with auras now that they don't stick around for long), and while 1/2 health, x2 damage works and is easier, I find it's too extreme with some monsters and causes rocket launcher tag. 3/4 health for 33% more damage seems better, though is harder to apply on the fly. For me the problem starts in paragon and gets quite noticeable in epic, so I actually made a table for monsters 11-30 by role, for how much HP to remove, and how much flat damage to add, starting off small and getting larger.

In general fights take 45-60 minutes regardless of system for me, much of 3.5 spent flipping through books and casting spells, while 4ed gets time bloated from high HP creatures and people continuously triggering interrupts.

[tcrudisi]

Combat in 4e doesn't have to take long. Back when I was running it regularly, I had my average combats down to about 15-20 minutes and my boss fights in about 30 minutes.

1. I use playing cards to help with initiative. I have them pre-sorted by Ace to King, with alternating red and black. Red ace, black 2, red 3, black 4, etc. As soon as everyone rolls initiative, I begin a count-down from the highest initiative possible at the table. And I do it quickly. So, I'll do something like...

Thirty-five?
Thirty-four?
Thirty-three? (HERE!) I slide the Ace to that player.
Thirty-two? I give myself the 2.
Thirty-one?
Thirty?
Twenty-Nine? (Here!) (Initiative Modifier?) (17!) I slide the 3 to the player and take the 4.

Etc.

I call them out fast. It takes about 15 seconds, tops. Players (and me as the DM) keep our cards face up, well out in front of us, so that everyone can see the initiative order on the table. Players are responsible for ensuring that they know when they go next.

2. Discussion and tactics are encouraged, but during other players turns, mostly. If they have something to discuss on their turn, I point out that they are in combat and communication is limited. I also remind them that "two extra points of damage isn't worth 5 extra minutes of discussion."

3. I fudge ... sometimes. If a monster has 1 or 2 hp left, I'll quickly decide whether it dies or not. Is this an unimportant combat? It dies. Is it a boss fight? It's still alive at 1 or 2 hp.

4. I trust my players. They know when they will incur an opp attack. They announce it when they've incurred one. I'm not going to question what they are saying or doing; that can take place after the session is over. "I didn't realize you could do that." "Yeah, I trained out power X for it." "Cool. How'd you like it?"

5. I trust my players. I will announce at the beginning of combat something like, "The highest defense is 28, the lowest is 23." What does that tell them? If they roll a 28 or higher on attack, they know they hit. If they roll a 22 or less? They know they've missed. There's no need to call it out in those cases. They can simply say, "I hit" or "I missed" and we go from there.

6. And then I don't wait on them ... usually. The monster isn't even bloodied? Or it has 30 hp left and the character that hit him can only do 19 damage max? I go ahead to the next player. I'll say, "It's still alive" or "It's probably bloodied" or "It's still not bloodied." Then the next player can go ahead and go ... while the previous player rolls for damage. When they've figured out their damage, they tell me, I write it down, and I keep the focus on the next player. This means that the players don't have to wait around for one player to roll damage.

When do I wait? When the character who does between 10-19 damage is rolling against an enemy that the party clearly wants dead ... and the monster has 17 hp left.

7. And I trust my players. They want to attack, then move, then use a minor to heal someone? I hear their attack and I resolve it as above. Then ... I go to the next player. They want to move their character? They know when they'll take an opp attack and they'll announce it. They can go ahead and move it. I don't really need to see it, ya know? They used a healing power on someone else? Roll that when it's not your turn so that we aren't all waiting on the results. You heal someone for their healing surge + 12 + 5d6 + 2d8 + the square root of 72, but only on Wednesdays when the moon is full? Yeah, just tell them how much you healed them after you've done your standard action. (Announce the use of the minor to heal, then attack. That way if you get dazed mid-action, we know how to resolve it.)

8. I've looked over the monsters before the session started. That way I have an idea of what they do and how intelligently I should play them. I roll my attack dice and damage dice at the same time. It helps that I'm really fast with math and have a good memory for conditional modifiers.

9. We use rings to represent things. I'm not sure what they are technically called, but we refer to them as rings. When you buy a soda bottle (pepsi, coke, whatever), there is the lid. And there's the thing the lid twists off of. Yeah, those. There are many different colors depending on the soda. We use red for bloodied, yellow for dazed, orange for ongoing damage, black for blind, green for hunter's quarry ... you get the idea. You put a status effect on someone? Throw the ring onto them. It wears off? Take it off. You heal someone and they are no longer bloodied? Take off their bloodied ring.

The rings provide a quick visual representation for what status effects someone is under. It lets you know when you have combat advantage against an enemy or if my monsters have CA against the players. Or if they can walk without incurring an Opp Attack.

10. I'll call combats when its clear that its over. There's only one monster left and all the players aren't even bloodied? Let's call it. If there's maybe two monsters left but its pretty clear its over, I'll offer the defender an exchange: One healing surge and both monsters die. Or something like that. But - use this at your own risk. You need to have a good feeling for when the combat is definitely over. You don't want to use it too early and take out some of the risk. There's only two monsters, but one player is unconscious, two more are bloodied, and a third is stunned? Yeah, this sucker is going to go on. I might be able to get a character death out of this. (Okay, I am a bit brutal as a DM.) It all really depends on how the combat has gone. I'd rather it go on a little bit longer than necessary than to call it too early.


Why do these things work? Well, its partially system mastery. My players understand their characters and the rules. Anything that goes wrong can be addressed after the session or during the combat if it is particularly egregious. We also enjoy the RP more than the combat, so we are okay focusing really hard on the combats. It's still strategic. It's ... hmm... it's like timed chess. You can spend hours trying to find the perfect move or you can have a game in which both players have 3 minutes to make all their moves. Ya know? Both are fun, certainly. Timed chess is certainly still strategic. Is it perfect? Well, no, but it has advantages over non-timed chess. I feel it's a more accurate representation of combat, anyway. Yeah, you are more likely to make a mistake, but aren't you more likely to make a mistake in combat when you've got seconds to make a decision?

Obviously if a player wants a few seconds to think, I'm not going to say no. If they are spending an uncomfortably long time, I'll ask them if they wish to hold action. That usually spurs them along. No one really wants to be the guy that holds things up if everyone else is making quick decisions.

It works for my group. Some of these things may work for your group. Obviously if they are all new players who don't know the rules well, then you have to build up to it. If they are all experienced then you can get away with most of these. It just depends.

Good luck.

[Epinephrine]

I use Masterplan for combat, and it speeds it up a ton. Automatically tracks HP, conditions, initiative, shows bloodied on screen. I roll no dice, since I just click the monster's power and then the player name that he attacked. Burst powers I click multiple targets; it even remembers the player's stats, so it tells me if I hit or not (though I have to confirm this since they all have varying defenses when they shift/teleport/etc.). That said, our combats are still very long, since all the players have a ton of off-turn actions, and some of them like to try to optimise everything they do, so it can take them a while to figure out exactly where they want to slide a creature to...

Going to a computer driven combat also means that we sit in a comfortable living room in nice chairs, instead of around a table.

[masteraleph]

I always find that one of the longest things is the lengthy list of conditions. That guy is dazed and at a -2 penalty to attack, that one is "Illusioned/Psychic" (our term for the combined effects of the Illusionist Mage's features + Psychic Lock), the others are all at -4 to hit and can't shift, etc.

We do our gaming on a tabletop, but use 4e Turn Tracker to keep track of statuses/conditions, etc. Not everything gets recorded though- if it's too esoteric (that guy is at -2 to his next attack against me), the DM usually just tells the player to keep track of it.

[Raine_Sage]

It's good to know I haven't been doing something wrong with the combat. Most of the suggestions on the list I'm already doing (using digital to keep track of player/monster initiative is a godsend) but there is good advice that I haven't tried and I'm really grateful for it.

I know 4th Ed is mostly tactical but it's also the only one I have books/pdfs for. I do know the current lack of tactical mindedness is more a consequence of my players being new to the system rather than just plain bad at tactics. The player who has played before has a very good grasp of tactics, for instance throwing lamp oil at a pack of goblins before setting them on fire. The fact that he missed and set a cart on fire by accident is incidental, his idea was still sound.

I'm gearing up to run them through a proper dungeon. So last game actually contained no combat at all but rather had the PCs exploring the town looking for clues and interacting with NPCs and each other. The Session ended with them right outside the dungeon and next game we're going to see how far we can get when the rping temporarily takes a backseat.

[Yakk]

What level are the PCs? As you gain levels in 4e, it is really really easy to fall behind the damage per round curve required to have snappy combats.

Annoyingly, it is hard to avoid falling behind the damage per second curve required to have short (out of game) combats.

One approach that can work is to drop monster HP to half, and double monster damage (possibly precalculating), or just have all monsters deal max damage on every hit (which is a bit less than double damage), and play your monsters non-tactically (have them try to engage every PC, instead of swarming one, for example).

This shortens combat (by 50% easily!) and maintains a high enough level of threat.

Another approach is to drop monster HP by half, and increase monster numbers by 50%, but leave their damage alone (or, precalculate their average damage, and have every monster deal average damage on a hit). This drops combat length by about 25%, and lets monsters be tactical without instant-killing a PC.

[Akodo Makama]

Did you use the DDI character builder? Did you print out power cards?

If not, do so: each player will have, at their fingertips, all the effects of all their special abilities. no need to pass books around to look things up. It makes it easy for the 'next up' player to select what they want to do and have it on the top of their deck, ready to go when their turn comes. All permanent bonuses are added up, reducing math (and forgetfulness).

Also, you can print out a 'character summary' card that the GM can stack up in initiative order to make tracking that easier as well (and giving the GM a quick reference for AC et. al.). Completely worth the time and money.

[originalginger]

Let the enemies run away or surrender if there is any reason they won't fight to the death.

Here is what I do:
When a character successfully uses a daily attack power, that creature and any of its allies within 4 squares make a flee check from fright at the devastating attack.

When a character successfully performs a critical hit, that creature and any of its allies within 4 squares make a flee check. Same reason as above.

If a creature is bloodied it makes a flee check.

If a Leader creature is defeated, all allies within 4 squares make a flee check.

If the starting number of creatures in the encounter is reduced to 50% or less, all remaining creatures make a flee check.

If you want, this can be cumulative. For example, there are 6 orcs that attack, after a few rounds the fighter makes critical hit, causing that orc and two more within 4 squares to flee, leaving only three. This reduces them to 50%, causing the other three to make flee check, one of which fails. Effectively, with one critical hit, it went from 6 orcs to two in a single round.


To make a flee check, roll 1d20. 1-10 = flee, 11-20 = don't flee. You can add modifiers too if you like. A bandit just looking for something to steal might quit without a second though, so he takes a -3 modifier, so that he drops his sword and surrenders at 13 or below. A wyvern defending her clutch of eggs is unlikely to run, so she gets a +5, and only runs a 5 or below.

The players, of course, should still get XP from all of the creatures that flee. You do have to be sure that if a foe has a magic item or certain treasure you want the players to have that they stick around til the end, offer it when they surrender, etc.

[windgate]

Having run 4e on both sides of the table numerous times, there seems to be an exponential increase in combat length for each player added. Generally I start modifying damage once the party gets over 3 people.

Something to think about In both 4e and 3.5 Handbook, a round gets described as lasting about 6 seconds. 4e Fights tend to last 3-5 rounds (18-30 seconds)

One of the things that I have noticed, really slows down is all the strategizing, communicating and planning a player makes on their turn. speaking is a free action but how complex of a discussion can player make in 6 seconds? remind them of that.

One house rule you can make to drastically speed things up is the following:

Double all damage and healing effects. You need to modify both to keep the game in balance.

Damage Effects: Rolled Damage, Ongoing Damage, Environmental/zone, Vulnerability.
Healing: Surge (treat the surge value as a modifier and double the total), Regeneration, Damage Resistance, Temp Hit points

There is a downside to this strategy, characters are fragile. It is possible for controllers to get knocked to (-) hit points from full life in a single round. Fights will end in 2-3 rounds though, 12-18 seconds. Staying in the bloodied state is extremely risky.

[Felhammer]

- Give a +2 bonus to anyone who knows exactly what they want to do at the start of their turn. Delay anyone who takes more than 30 seconds to decide what to do. If a player habitually delays, then have him take a -2 on his attacks. That will make players speed up! ;)

- Have a good system for indicating who has what kind of status effect/bonus. Many people use stickers and/or poker chips.

- Have all of the monsters stat blocks printed out in front of you.

- Round all player damage to the nearest 5.

- Monsters deal average damage.

- Don't be afraid to use normal monsters as minions or reduce their hp by half.

- Don't be afraid to have monsters run away/surrender when they are losing.

- Don't be afraid to hand wave a combat that is going exceedingly well and has only "busy work" left.

- Pre-roll dice and record their results.

- If combat is dragging, give the players +1 to hit.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

When the second round of combat begins, place a d6 with the '1' facing up on the table. All players gain a +1 bonus on attack/damage rolls and skill checks. At the start of each subsequent round, increase the d6 and the bonus by one, up to a maximum of 6.*
*: I stole this idea from the 13th Age RPG, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet. I heard somewhere it helps speed up combat and I can't wait to give it a try.

Argh! Beaten to it! I was gonna suggest the Escalation Die...

[VeliciaL]

I've pretty much just skimmed this thread and a lot of people have had great ideas, but I just thought I'd throw this out there: here (http://diceofdoom.com/blog/2010/03/speeding-up-dd-4e-combat-morale/) are some pretty good (and simple) morale rules for 4th edition, mainly geared toward stopping encounters from reaching that "we've beat them, now we need to whittle them down to 0 HP" point.

[windgate]

Looking back at my previous suggestion, I can make it even simpler by adjusting things from the hit points side instead.

Create a global reduction of hit point's for everything, players and monsters, on the field (Do not change surge values). Combat speed increases proportional to the reduction:

25% Less life (1 surge value) = +25% faster combat
50% Less Life (2 surge value) = +50% Combat Speed

There are two resulting balance concerns you will need to consider though:

(1) Minions always have only 1 hit point
(2) Combats are extremely unlikely to last more than 4 rounds. Post level 7, many players will likely never use at-will attack powers again...

[Alienist]

I'd recommend looking at the videos of Chris Perkins DMing.

At one point Acquisitions Incorporated is invading some enemy dwarf clans fortress, and he just says something like "you fight your way in and find yourselves in a room with a big circle on the ground".

That's right, he just 'yada yada's storming a dwarven stronghold.

Basically his tool of choice seems to be to focus on storyline and roleplaying (and bad jokes, which is often a close facsimile of roleplaying) and then just skipping most (or all) of the intermediary conflicts and going right to the final boss battle.

[UndertakerSheep]

Argh! Beaten to it! I was gonna suggest the Escalation Die...

After reading the 13th Age rulebook again, I'm starting to think that the #1 tip for speeding up 4e combat is: play 13th Age instead.

One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is understanding why combat is important. Combat should always drive the plot forward, and usually have a different/second objective other than ''kill all the monsters before they kill you''. If they players achieve that secondary objective before they kill the enemy, they effectively cut the combat short and still get full XP, which is awesome.

The point of all this is that at the end of the session, everyone should be able to justify spending an hour on a single combat. An hour spent having fun and reaching your goals is always an hour well spent.

[TroubleBrewing]

It's an old article, (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22360333/Compilation:_Combat_Accelerators?pg=1) but I still find it useful.

[Rhaegar14]

One thing we do that makes life a lot easier is just scrap initiative altogether. At the beginning of combat, each side rolls initiative and takes the average as their initiative count. The team that wins goes first, and from there it's back and forth.

In addition to removing the initiative bookkeeping, when everybody acts at the same time, it serves to greatly encourage teamwork.

[Tegu8788]

There are two issues to that style. One, focus firing becomes very, very powerful, both on PCs and monsters.

The second is when the Dex high Rogue that benefits from getting the first attack is in a party with my Dex dumping Paladin. If it's all or nothing, the Rogue get's nerfed hard.


I would suggest a variant that simplifies it, without those problems. Instead of two blocks, give four, or six, depending on the number of PCs/monsters. That way the Rogue and other Init based characters can still get their benefits, then a group of monsters go, then the slow PCs, and another round of monsters. This breaks it up a bit, still allows for a number of PCs to go "together," without focus fire obliterating things.

[kidnicky]

I don't want to sound condescending, bht your problem is that you're playing something that's more of a complicated board game than a cooperative storytelling whatever. D&D 4E is a game that simulates combat between heroes and monsters in EXCRUCIATING detail and glosses over everything else.

You've got 2 choices, either play D&D and do what my group does, which is handwave anything that seems complex, or go to a site like Drive Thru RPG and pay 5 or 10 bucks for a. Pdf of a rules light indie game. A lot of them don't even use minis, you just assume everyone's in range.

I like different games for different reasons, and when I want a tactical combat skirmish I want to play D&D. But why try to make a game you don't like fun, when you can cheaply aquire a game you DO like? I mean, D&D isn't for everyone, and if it's not for you, so what? There's a million games out there to try, many cheap or free.

[tcrudisi]

I don't want to sound condescending, bht your problem is that you're playing something that's more of a complicated board game than a cooperative storytelling whatever. D&D 4E is a game that simulates combat between heroes and monsters in EXCRUCIATING detail and glosses over everything else.

You've got 2 choices, either play D&D and do what my group does, which is handwave anything that seems complex, or go to a site like Drive Thru RPG and pay 5 or 10 bucks for a. Pdf of a rules light indie game. A lot of them don't even use minis, you just assume everyone's in range.

I like different games for different reasons, and when I want a tactical combat skirmish I want to play D&D. But why try to make a game you don't like fun, when you can cheaply aquire a game you DO like? I mean, D&D isn't for everyone, and if it's not for you, so what? There's a million games out there to try, many cheap or free.

This always seems to pop up every once in a while. It makes no sense. You don't need rules to roleplay. You do need rules for combat.

Sure, having some rules for roleplaying is nice. Guess what? D&D has enough. I've played in roleplay heavy games where we would do combat for 15 minutes a session and roleplay the other 6 hours. Even better, 4e added in a system where you can gain xp through roleplaying. To say that D&D doesn't encourage roleplaying is silly. The groups that you play with may not roleplay in D&D, but that's because they choose not to, not because the system doesn't support it well.

[kidnicky]

This always seems to pop up every once in a while. It makes no sense. You don't need rules to roleplay. You do need rules for combat.

Sure, having some rules for roleplaying is nice. Guess what? D&D has enough. I've played in roleplay heavy games where we would do combat for 15 minutes a session and roleplay the other 6 hours. Even better, 4e added in a system where you can gain xp through roleplaying. To say that D&D doesn't encourage roleplaying is silly. The groups that you play with may not roleplay in D&D, but that's because they choose not to, not because the system doesn't support it well.

But if she doesn't like the D&D combat rules, then she doesn't! They can RP and put off combat as long as they like, but when they get to the eventual combat, it will be combat they apparently do not like.

I wasn't claiming D&D couldn't do roleplaying, but the emphasis is on a combat system I personally like, but the OP does not.

[Breccia]

I've seen this happen. I have tried a few --



If a player's turn comes up and he acts immediately, he gets a +2 bonus on all relevant d20 rolls. This is a great incentive for a few of my players to plan their turns ahead of time.

Nevermind, I like this idea better.

[Arcas Corricol]

I completely agree that tactics are essential to combat, if your players are just standing in a corner they are boxing themselves in and vulnerable to whatever splash damage that can kill your PCs in a few hits, if their role-playing is as good as you say you can change the situation or enemies to be more dynamic and forcing them to roam around and fight off enemies in a gauntlet-style situation
Making things easier would only be suitable for when you are seeing that they are not doing so well, and as for the dice roll situations they're just unlucky. :D

[Raine_Sage]

I don't want to sound condescending, bht your problem is that you're playing something that's more of a complicated board game than a cooperative storytelling whatever. D&D 4E is a game that simulates combat between heroes and monsters in EXCRUCIATING detail and glosses over everything else.

You've got 2 choices, either play D&D and do what my group does, which is handwave anything that seems complex, or go to a site like Drive Thru RPG and pay 5 or 10 bucks for a. Pdf of a rules light indie game. A lot of them don't even use minis, you just assume everyone's in range.

I like different games for different reasons, and when I want a tactical combat skirmish I want to play D&D. But why try to make a game you don't like fun, when you can cheaply aquire a game you DO like? I mean, D&D isn't for everyone, and if it's not for you, so what? There's a million games out there to try, many cheap or free.

It's not that we don't like combat. It's just that I want to try and make it feel more even? Like it was 2/3 combat 1/3 roleplay and I wanted to aim more for 1/2 combat 1/2 roleplay per session. So that both the story and the characters can progress at a reasonable clip.

I've taken a lot of the ideas people have offered and I though I should mention the problem is more or less solved. The +2 for immediate responses worked wonders and in addition the party has gotten much better at tactical thinking. When one of them set off a bomb in a dungeon (long story) they immediately braced themselves for combat since they assumed the noise would draw enemies.

I didn't even imply that it would, they just started setting up choke points. Broke my heart to tell them that there weren't currently any enemies heading their way.

[tcrudisi]

It's not that we don't like combat. It's just that I want to try and make it feel more even? Like it was 2/3 combat 1/3 roleplay and I wanted to aim more for 1/2 combat 1/2 roleplay per session. So that both the story and the characters can progress at a reasonable clip.

I've taken a lot of the ideas people have offered and I though I should mention the problem is more or less solved. The +2 for immediate responses worked wonders and in addition the party has gotten much better at tactical thinking. When one of them set off a bomb in a dungeon (long story) they immediately braced themselves for combat since they assumed the noise would draw enemies.

I didn't even imply that it would, they just started setting up choke points. Broke my heart to tell them that there weren't currently any enemies heading their way.

But .... but ...

If it was sad for you to do it AND they were wanting it to happen, then make it happen! It was clearly something that you both wanted, so why refuse? It didn't even have to be a big or difficult combat. On the contrary - throw some equal level or level -1 monsters at them; things which they'd easily handle even without inherent advantages and let them steamroll the encounter. It makes them feel successful and everyone gets to have their fun.

And you don't feel bad for telling them that their planning was for naught.

As a DM, I feel as though my main job is to see that everyone has fun. Normally I like to challenge the players and let them overcome those challenges, but if an opportunity like this fell into my lap, I'd have to jump at it.

[kidnicky]

Yeah, I would have let them slaughter a few cannon fodder guys. Why not? It's not like it's going to change the plot in the long term.

[Shatteredtower]

Yeah, I would have let them slaughter a few cannon fodder guys. Why not? It's not like it's going to change the plot in the long term.

One of the things I've enjoyed about 4E was realizing how often combat could be a break from the plot. It could become relevant by virtue of attition combined with time constraints, but combat choices seldom dictated character direction.

Once that clicked, serving up a constant diet of challenging fights became less important and I could focus more on character goals and setting.

[Raine_Sage]

But .... but ...

If it was sad for you to do it AND they were wanting it to happen, then make it happen! It was clearly something that you both wanted, so why refuse? It didn't even have to be a big or difficult combat. On the contrary - throw some equal level or level -1 monsters at them; things which they'd easily handle even without inherent advantages and let them steamroll the encounter. It makes them feel successful and everyone gets to have their fun.

And you don't feel bad for telling them that their planning was for naught.

As a DM, I feel as though my main job is to see that everyone has fun. Normally I like to challenge the players and let them overcome those challenges, but if an opportunity like this fell into my lap, I'd have to jump at it.

Heh yeah hindsight right? at the time I was like "Well...there just aren't any more left." it didn't occur to me until the next day that I could have just tossed some minions there way and let them get some extra exp. They did have fun looting the tomb though so nothing really lost.

[Dralnu]

Lots of good suggestions already, throwing in a little more just for fun:

Lower monster HP by about 25-50% depending on group. -25% is what I go with for one group, but my other group has zero strikers and does piddly damage so I lower it to 40% there.

Increase monster damage by ~25%-40%, again depending on group

Similar to how another person said lower both monster and character HP by 1/2. Combat wraps up quicker and there's an actual fear of death which I find is lacking in 4e. I customize a bit more based on individual groups and my players would get upset if I halved their health, though doing that instead of increasing monster damage would make things easier on your part.

Fearless berserker-type minions are your friends. If you've got big, tanky bruiser monsters that aren't afraid of a couple cuts, play them recklessly. Let them charge the squishies and not be afraid of taking some AoO's in the process.

Your monsters will die faster, it puts some heat under the squishies, and the tank will shine a bit more by working to keep the squishies safe.

There were a bunch of berserker orc types in Madness of Gardmore Abbey so I had fun with that tactics.

[DHKase]

Encounter design can also speed combat up somewhat. I typically design an entire level of a dungeon as a single encounter, but spread the monsters out so the party doesn't have to tackle them all at once so long as their smart about their engagements.